Re: [DNG] Apply Rainer's patch to netman.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Edward Bartolo  writes:
> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git apply --check
> ../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch
> error: patch failed: Makefile:13
> error: Makefile: patch does not apply
> error: patch failed: debian/rules:2
> error: debian/rules: patch does not apply
>
>
> Checking for patch applicability git states the patch is not applicable.

It contains tab characters in various places (ASCII 9) and 'text
processing tools', eg, mail readers, are sometime fond of expanding
these to some number of spaces. But this must not happen here.

Same with tabs restored.

NB: This is relevant for Makefiles as a command line in a Makefile must
start with a tab (because someone considered that a good idea in 197x ...).


diff --git a/Makefile b/Makefile
index 55df54f..4a747ef 100644
--- a/Makefile
+++ b/Makefile
@@ -13,5 +13,13 @@ clean:
rm -f lib/*/*.*
rm -f backend netman
 
-.PHONY: all clean
+.PHONY: all clean install
 
+INST :=install -o root -g root
+INST_X :=  $(INST) -m 0755
+INST_D :=  $(INST) -m 0644
+
+install: all
+   $(INST_X) -d $(DESTDIR)
+   $(INST_X) netman backend_src/bin/backend $(DESTDIR)
+   $(INST_D) netman.ico netman.desktop $(DESTDIR)
diff --git a/debian/netman-backend.install b/debian/netman-backend.install
index 5028afe..f7832d3 100644
--- a/debian/netman-backend.install
+++ b/debian/netman-backend.install
@@ -1 +1 @@
-backend_src/src/backend /usr/lib/netman/bin
\ No newline at end of file
+backend /usr/lib/netman/bin
diff --git a/debian/rules b/debian/rules
index 0e6d2ad..bf3a311 100755
--- a/debian/rules
+++ b/debian/rules
@@ -2,12 +2,3 @@
 
 %:
dh $@ --with quilt,python2
-
-override_dh_auto_clean:
-   dh_auto_clean
-
-override_dh_auto_configure:
-   #fpc  -MObjFPC -Scghi -Tlinux -vewn -Filib/x86_64-linux 
-Fl/opt/gnome/lib -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux/gtk2 
-Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux 
-Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/components/lazutils/lib/x86_64-linux 
-Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/packager/units/x86_64-linux -Fu. -FUlib/x86_64-linux 
-l -dLCL -dLCLgtk2 netman.lpr && cd backend_src/src && gcc -g -I../include 
core_functions.c file_functions.c backend.c essid_encoder.c -o backend
-   lazbuild -B netman.lpr && cd backend_src/src && gcc -lm -I../include 
core_functions.c file_functions.c backend.c essid_encoder.c automated_scanner.c 
-o backend
-   
-override_dh_auto_build:
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Re: [DNG] Apply Rainer's patch to netman.

[Edward Bartolo]

edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git apply --check
../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch
error: patch failed: Makefile:13
error: Makefile: patch does not apply
error: patch failed: debian/rules:2
error: debian/rules: patch does not apply


Checking for patch applicability git states the patch is not applicable.



On 19/12/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> On 15/12/2015, Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>> Some more remarks on the packaging efforts so far: The rules file in the
>> git repository is
>>
>> --
>> #!/usr/bin/make -f
>>
>> %:
>> dh $@ --with quilt,python2
>>
>> override_dh_auto_clean:
>> dh_auto_clean
>>
>> override_dh_auto_configure:
>> #fpc  -MObjFPC -Scghi -Tlinux -vewn -Filib/x86_64-linux
>> -Fl/opt/gnome/lib -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux/gtk2
>> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux
>> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/components/lazut
>> lazbuild -B netman.lpr && cd backend_src/src && gcc -lm
>> -I../include
>> core_functions.c file_functions.c backend.c essid_encoder.c
>> automated_scanner.c -o backend
>>
>> override_dh_auto_build:
>> 
>>
>> this is as bizarre as it is completely useless. Debhelper will use the
>> package Makefile with a target of 'all' in order to build the package
>> and with a target of 'install' in order to install it into the staging
>> area. None of the overrides is needed. The Makefile doesn't have an
>> install target.
>>
>> With the following changes, the packages get built as intended:
>>
>> ---
>> diff --git a/Makefile b/Makefile
>> index 55df54f..6b263d7 100644
>> --- a/Makefile
>> +++ b/Makefile
>> @@ -13,5 +13,13 @@ clean:
>> rm -f lib/*/*.*
>> rm -f backend netman
>>
>> -.PHONY: all clean
>> +.PHONY: all clean install
>>
>> +INST :=install -o root -g root
>> +INST_X := $(INST) -m 0755
>> +INST_D := $(INST) -m 0644
>> +
>> +install: all
>> +   $(INST_X) -d $(DESTDIR)
>> +   $(INST_X) netman backend_src/bin/backend $(DESTDIR)
>> +   $(INST_D) netman.ico netman.desktop $(DESTDIR)
>> diff --git a/debian/netman-backend.install
>> b/debian/netman-backend.install
>> index 5028afe..f7832d3 100644
>> --- a/debian/netman-backend.install
>> +++ b/debian/netman-backend.install
>> @@ -1 +1 @@
>> -backend_src/src/backend /usr/lib/netman/bin
>> \ No newline at end of file
>> +backend /usr/lib/netman/bin
>> diff --git a/debian/rules b/debian/rules
>> index 0e6d2ad..bf3a311 100755
>> --- a/debian/rules
>> +++ b/debian/rules
>> @@ -2,12 +2,3 @@
>>
>>  %:
>> dh $@ --with quilt,python2
>> -
>> -override_dh_auto_clean:
>> -   dh_auto_clean
>> -
>> -override_dh_auto_configure:
>> -   #fpc  -MObjFPC -Scghi -Tlinux -vewn -Filib/x86_64-linux
>> -Fl/opt/gnome/lib -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux/gtk2
>> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux
>> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/components/lazut
>> -   lazbuild -B netman.lpr && cd backend_src/src && gcc -lm
>> -I../include
>> core_functions.c file_functions.c backend.c essid_encoder.c
>> automated_scanner.c -o backend
>> -
>> -override_dh_auto_build:
>> 
>>
>> NB: The backend permissions will need to be fixed up in a maintainer
>> script.
>> ___
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>> Dng@lists.dyne.org
>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I created a .patch file by copying and pasting the patch supplied by
> Rainer, read above. I have the fully restored and up to date netman
> sources, but I am not sure whether as typed below "git patch" should
> actually apply the patch properly.
>
> The command:
> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git patch
> ../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch
>
> I also read that the patch can be saved/archived into git, and I think
> it is the proper way it should be done.
>
> Can I safely run the command as shown and if possible tell git to
> archive/save the patch?
>
> Edward
>
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Re: [DNG] Life's too short to reply to trolls

[Mitt Green]

+1

Please receive a virtual handshake.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 11:02:49 +
Rowland Penny  wrote:


> Will somebody please do what debian does when somebody says systemd
> is bad on their mailing list -- Ban him!
> 
> Rowland

Calling Don Armstrong. Calling Don Armstrong. Don, we need you!

:-)

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:46:21PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> On 19/12/15 12:02, Rowland Penny wrote:
> >Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will
> >remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is
> >*BAD* in my books.
> 
> You're doing it wrong.
> 
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
> 
> Hint: you need to install systemd-shim.

Systemd-shim is a tool for running _systemd_ without it being pid 1.
It's useless without systemd.

-- 
A tit a day keeps the vet away.
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Re: [DNG] Apply Rainer's patch to netman.

[aitor_czr]

Hi Edward,


On 12/19/2015 05:52 PM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

Hi,
>
>I created a .patch file by copying and pasting the patch supplied by
>Rainer, read above. I have the fully restored and up to date netman
>sources, but I am not sure whether as typed below "git patch" should
>actually apply the patch properly.
>
>The command:
>edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$  git patch
>../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch


The right command is this other one:

$ git apply --stat ../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch


>I also read that the patch can be saved/archived into git, and I think
>it is the proper way it should be done.


Yes, you can use quilt for that. I'm busy now and i didn't test the 
patch. Maybe tomorrow :((



>Can I safely run the command as shown and if possible tell git to
>archive/save the patch?
>
>Edward


Aitor.

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Re: [DNG] Life's too short to reply to trolls

[Simon Hobson]

Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> If the group is so weak, that one opponent may threaten it, then something is 
> wrong with that group, right?

No.
As pointed out, the "discussion" has distracted people from the task in hand. 
No-one here has to justify their desire to be systemd free to anyone - yet 
that's effectively what people have been asked to do. There's been a "long 
discussion", of a form that could be off-putting to someone new to the list - 
probably because they have just found out about this "Debian without the 
malware" distro.


Steve Litt  wrote:

> ... get down to the not inconsiderable business of bringing the Devuan 
> sans-systemd OS to beta and then to production status.

+1
I've hesitated to post a couple of times when it would have been appropriate 
(didn't want to add noise), but since I am posting, in my opinion there's only 
a small window left. Debian Wheezy is already to the point where some packages 
are out of support, last time I updated on of my systems I got the message :
> php5 (5.4.45-0+deb7u2) wheezy-security; urgency=medium
> 
>  * PHP 5.4 has reached end-of-life on 14 Sep 2015 and as a result there
>will be no more new upstream releases.  The security support of PHP
>5.4 in Debian will be best effort only and you are strongly advised
>to upgrade to latest stable Debian release that includes PHP 5.6 that
>will reach end of security support on 28 Aug 2017.

It won't be long before Wheezy is out of support and many people will be at 
"decision point" with a PHB demanding to know why an unsupported OS is in use. 
Once systems are updated to Debian Jessie with SystemD and the world hasn't 
ended, it could be hard for many to switch afterwards.
From my POV it does appear that there is still quite a bit to do in terms of 
getting the "transparent infrastructure" that most people will be expecting of 
a mainstream distro. I'm afraid I don't have the skills to help or I would be 
doing.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Go Linux]

On Sat, 12/19/15, John Hughes  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, December 19, 2015, 6:05 AM

On 19/12/15 12:54, Rowland Penny wrote:

> Firstly, *never* email me directly.

Sorry, pressed wrong button in crappy thunderbird interface.



This troll can't even master his email client but is an authority on systemd?  
He has used this excuse several times before.  I'm not buying it . . .


***

On Sat, 12/19/15, John Hughes  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, December 19, 2015, 6:48 AM

On 19/12/15 12:47, KatolaZ wrote:

> It also removes cups and many other things, for that matter.

Are you sure?  Why?  When I just tried on sid it didn't say it was going
to remove cups.  It does say it's going to remove printer-driver-hpcups
and printer-driver-hpijs for some insane reason.



The operative word here is 'insane'.  An apt description for the insidious  
(and parasitic) way systemd it attaches itself to just about anything for 
whatever (most likely nefarious) purpose.

golinux

(I've fed the troll.  Now I'm out.)
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[DNG] Life's too short to reply to trolls

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

Here's a partial list of things I just don't do:

* I don't go into a Catholic church saying "Abortion isn't that bad."

* I don't go into an abortion rights group meeting saying "Bans on
  abortion aren't that bad."

* I don't go into Linux venues saying "Linux is primitive compared to
  the superior OS/x and Windows.

* I don't go into Mac or Windows venues extolling the virtues of Linux.

* I don't go onto the dng mailing lists saying "systemd-component isn't
  that bad."

Because I have a life.

Those who have a life don't move into a group or venue and challenge
the group or venue's foundational principle, because it's much easier
to join a more fitting group or venue, or else make your own group or
venue. Those with a life have better things to do than try to start
conflict.

Those who don't have a life send 31 posts, all contradictory to the
group's foundational principle, in 1.5 days. I can't begin to speculate
what satisfaction such people derive from their activities, and the
arguments their activities spawn, but the result is all too clear: They
use up valuable energy that should be used to further the group's
mission. And with the help of those who reply to them, they create anger
that drives away the not-yet-committed.

They damage the group. Don't assist them by responding. Don't turn a
mole-hill into a mountain. Instead, do what I just did:

:0:
* From.*thetr...@whatever.com
* ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org
/dev/null

Naturally, you can also use your email client's native
filters, if you prefer.

Let me ask you a couple questions:

* If a tree falls in a remote forest where no creature can hear, did it
  really make a sound?

* If a troll trolls on dng, but everyone's filtered him out, did he
  really troll at all? Or perhaps more to the point, did he cause any
  damage?

In the past 1.5 days, a single troll and those who responded accounted
for 60 messages. All but the troll had the same opinion: We'd prefer
not to have any libsystemd dependencies. Only the troll disagreed. Do
we really owe the troll an explanation, once it becomes obvious he's
not looking for one: He's looking only to create conflict?

With trolls unheard, we can better get down to the not inconsiderable
business of bringing the Devuan sans-systemd OS to beta and then to
production status.

When it comes to trolls, my policy is this:

Killfile and move on!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Local netman sources fully restored.

[KatolaZ]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 02:37:22PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I agree, but tags are usefull.
> 
> 
> Here you are an example with linux-libre:
> 
> 

I have never said that tags are not useful. I have been using tags
since the first days of SVN, where tags where physical copies of
entire repositories. But I did not mention tags in my email
altogether. I just remarked that being *scared* of giving "git pull"
on the command line does not solve problems, besides being irrational,
somehow childish, and completely unjustified.

And in that case the problem was probably just ignorance, which
*please* has to be considered *literally* as "lack of knowledge". As I
said, lack of knowledge is never ever a shame, it is a very common
thing indeed, which I experience all the time. Ignorance is not a
spell cast on us by an old ugly witch, and can be indeed cured by
reading and studying, paying attention to the suggestions of other
peers who care about answering random requests about a broken working
copy of a repository, and avoiding to get into panic mode every time
something does not work at the very first try.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community (John Hughes)

[janpenguin]

Looking back the past, the precursor of systemd chaos was replacement of 
ALSA with pulseaudio that caused headache to many innocent users from 
Debian 6.0 to 7.0. I tried to use buggy pulseaudio for months but went 
back to ALSA.


Systemd built-in Debian Jessie was a disaster.

How many users are fine loosing hibernation feature that preserve 
previous session over dubious-faster booting time?  Usual uptime of my 
Debian workstation is forty to sixty days.





On 12/19/2015 02:45 PM, John Hughes wrote:

   And all the little no-systemd irritations are fixed? 
hibernation/suspend

   and so on?


Yes.

I installed Devuan on a HP netbook lately, suspend and hibernation are 
working properly.
Two months old Devuan workstation has been running 35 five days 
flawless, whose uptime is 35 days. I put it on hibernation once or twice 
a day.


You seems not to understand about package dependency policy of APT. In 
most cases, when a base package, that hundreds packages depend on, is 
upgraded to higher version or replaced by user manually, next package 
upgrade using apt-get triggers wiping out hundreds packages.


If systemd takes control over Linux kernel, it's done deal.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-and-others-on-linuxs-systemd/
https://i2.wp.com/zdnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/10/05/7aae1747-4ce3-11e4-b6a0-d4ae52e95e57/resize/770x578/4a975803117e2bffc6a1dd3d5d8dba64/systemdcomponents-svg.png

Apparently Microsoft provides Windows 10 for free. Free means without 
license fee. It's deceptive. I see many Linux users do not care about 
the core values of FOSS. As long as they don't spend money, it's fine. 
Free as free bear!
Freedom has to provide choices. End users who have no choice become 
corporate slaves who are forced to do buy or use whatever corporations 
feed into.


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Re: [DNG] Local netman sources fully restored.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

My solution was a safe two step procedure:
 i) restore sources from backup
ii) git pull to update the sources

The other solutions had more steps which could go wrong. In fact, I
tried two suggested procedures to recover the sources from the git
repository as suggested by Aitor. However, both of them failed. So,
remembering I did a recent (8th Dec 2015) full system backup, I used
it to restore the sources in an easy, concise and safe way.

As I can understand it, git keeps a chronological (sequential) list of
patches from which sources can be restored to any point in the
sequence. The problem with me, and I dare say with many others, is
remembering many commands and why they are used. Usually, the problem
is not in understanding but in getting the message intended by authors
of help files, as different people have the tendency to express
themselves in different ways. So, there is a subjectivity which is
virtually impossible to bypass. In my case, I posses a memory that
favours long term memory much more than short term memory.  This makes
it more difficult to handle situations like the one I had as I cannot
read a manpage, register it in short term memory, and solve my
problem. Learning in my case and in a small percentage of people
having my type of memory, takes longer, but is far more persistent.

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Life's too short to reply to trolls

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/19/2015 07:33 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

They damage the group


If the group is so weak, that one opponent may threaten it, then 
something is wrong with that group, right?


Be smarter, positive...expose arguments, not anger and "bans":)

Math is simple...troll is only one, group has many members, so...feed 
the troll until he explode ;)


Cheers :)
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Re: [DNG] Apply Rainer's patch to netman.

[Edward Bartolo]

> On 19/12/2015, aitor_czr  wrote:
> Hi Edward,
>
>
> On 12/19/2015 05:52 PM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

>> >The command:
>> >edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$  git patch
>> >../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch
>
> The right command is this other one:
>
> $ git apply --stat ../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch

Hi Aitor,

Thanks for your reply. Git is reporting that the patch is corrupted. I
informed Rainer about that.

Edward
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[DNG] Sound in Linux

[Mitt Green]

>Looking back the past, the precursor of systemd chaos was replacement of
>ALSA with pulseaudio that caused headache to many innocent users from 
>Debian 6.0 to 7.0. I tried to use buggy pulseaudio for months but went 
>back to ALSA.

You *can't* replace ALSA with pulseaudio, lower ALSA
API remains in the kernel anyway, you only replace
userland APIs. This by the way can even grow up to
ALSA API (kernel) -> OSS (userspace) -> PulseAudio.

Or even worse:
Lower ALSA -> Lower PulseAudio -> PulseAudio Network
Abstraction Server -> Upper PulseAudio and then probably
you have to use Upper ALSA API.

Compare with the default ALSA stack:
Lower ALSA (kernel) -> Upper ALSA (userspace)

And almost the same with OSS.

As you see PulseAudio also clutters users' systems.

Mitt‎
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 19:02, Steve Litt wrote:

Yeah, in an ideal world, we'd like to remove every rotting vestige of
systemd, but in a practical world, where if we don't timely produce
something people can actually use, this has all been for naught,
removal is a process, where on the first go-around we remove systemd as
PID1 and the process supervisor


Then I don't understand what the point of Devuan is -- you can "remove 
systemd as

PID1 and the process supervisor" in Debian.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:39:26 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:


On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:

No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
base removing the dependency.

But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

I don't know.

Here's what I do know. Before 12/18/2015 (today), not one single email
from "John Hughes" has been posted to dng@lists.dyne.org. Today
(12/18/2015), there have been 10 (and counting) "John Hughes" emails,


Yes I've only been reading the list as a lurker up to now.


most of which tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell me 
why it is.



  and one of
which seemed to say that you need remove systemd dependencies only from
*direct* systemdlib0 dependencies, and not the sub-dependencies, and
that makes no sense to me at all.


Huh?  if a depends on b which depends on c which depends on libsystemd0 
then only c needs modification to remove that dependancy, not a or b.


One of the reasons LKCL's post was met with such derision was his claim 
that over 4000 packages depended on libsystemd0, when the real number is 74.




But when I hear "John Hughes" post several "libsystemd0 isn't that bad"
posts on his very first day, well, Mr. Hughes' credibility descends.
And when his credibility descends, one must consider the possibility
that he's here only to stir up conflict. It's been tried before, and it
works very poorly on this list.


I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove libsystemd0, 
replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge steaming elephant turd 
in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 18/12/15 15:50, Mitt Green wrote:

It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
packages *don't* depend on
systemd.

So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so on?


Exactly.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[dev1fanboy]

Reading from devuan.org Devuan intends in the long term to try to 
follow the UNIX philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well, so 
it's not just about systemd.


You have to avoid many other packages to avoid systemd and in some 
cases you will end up with systemd support that you don't want anyway.



 
On Saturday, December 19, 2015 9:38 AM, John Hughes 
 wrote:

 

On 18/12/15 19:02, Steve Litt wrote:
Yeah, in an ideal world, we'd like to remove every rotting vestige 
of

systemd, but in a practical world, where if we don't timely produce
something people can actually use, this has all been for naught,
removal is a process, where on the first go-around we remove systemd 
as

PID1 and the process supervisor
Then I don't understand what the point of Devuan is -- you can 
"remove

systemd as
PID1 and the process supervisor" in Debian.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 11:40, dev1fanboy wrote:


You have to avoid many other packages to avoid systemd and in some 
cases you will end up with systemd support that you don't want anyway.




For example?
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 11:28, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 19/12/15 10:21, John Hughes wrote:

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:



most of [ JH's posts ] tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell 
me why it is.


I will give you a good reason why systemd is bad, if you try to remove 
it from debian, it also removes your desktop etc.


Are you talking about libsystemd0?  Because it's not true that removing 
systemd from Debian will remove your desktop.  If you are talking about 
libsystemd0 why do you want to remove it?  All I see are circular 
arguments -- "libsystemd0" is bad because removing it breaks things, so 
we must remove it.






I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove 
libsystemd0, replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge steaming 
elephant turd in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.


Why?, Linux worked very well before 'logind' appeared.



Maybe, but it doesn't now, so either you stick to wheezy or you fix the 
problem.  Ignoring it won't make it go away.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 12:02, Rowland Penny wrote:


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is
*BAD* in my books.


You're doing it wrong.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation

Hint: you need to install systemd-shim.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 12:54, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 19/12/15 11:45, John Hughes wrote:

On 19/12/15 12:02, Rowland Penny wrote:


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will 
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is 
*BAD* in my books.


You're doing it wrong.

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation 



Hint: you need to install systemd-shim.


Firstly, *never* email me directly.


Sorry, pressed wrong button in crappy thunderbird interface.



Did you miss the bit about my pathological hatred of systemd??


You cannot imagine the depth of the all consuming lack of interest I 
have in your mental state, pathological or otherwise.


I'm interested in the tecnological aspects of avoiding systemd.  I'm 
unhappy that people who don't want to use systemd are forced into 
running broken systems, so I would like to see useful work towards 
making it possible to easily run alternatives to systemd.




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Re: [DNG] Not getting your emails

[Simon Hobson]

Mitt Green  wrote:

> Go Linux  wrote:
> 
>> Just a heads up.  None of your emails are coming through. Not even in spam.  
>> I >only know that you've posted when I see quotes in the responses.  I have 
>> a >yahoo address for this list and it has been a problem for me too.
> 
> The same thing about you: once you wrote to "Our friendly communinty" I didn't
> get your email. You are not in my spam folder either. Mine is yahoo too
> as you see.

Ah, that'll be the "we know it breaks stuff but we're gonna do it anyway and 
anything it breaks we can simply declare 'wrong' even though it's completely 
legitimate" SPF/DMARC/whatever they've implemented.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 12:47, KatolaZ wrote:

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 11:02:49AM +, Rowland Penny wrote:

[cut]


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is
*BAD* in my books.


It also removes cups and many other things, for that matter.


Are you sure?  Why?  When I just tried on sid it didn't say it was going 
to remove cups.  It does say it's going to remove printer-driver-hpcups 
and printer-driver-hpijs for some insane reason.




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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

John Hughes  writes:
> On 18/12/15 15:50, Mitt Green wrote:
>>> It's a library whose sole purpose is to make sure that
>>> packages *don't* depend on
>>> systemd.
>> So, you are saying that libsystemd0 is harmless and it
>> doesn't mean anything unless you install systemd, systemd-sysv and so on?
>
> Exactly.

*If* libsystemd0 is structured as you claimed it was (I didn't check
this), it's nothing but a second (and presumably somewhat sub-par)
implementation of a set of systemd defined APIs which sits in a shared
library (very likely written by the systemd developers, as it's part of
the same source package as systemd) and some runtime switching code
which either uses the facilities of identifiable systemd-programs or
falls back to the library reimplementation in case these aren't
available. It's purpose would be to enable applications depending on
systemd-facilities to work on systems which apparently don't have it
installed by providing a second systemd implementation in another file,
IOW, the 'preferred programming interface' of such a system is whatever
the systemd developers decided it should be and this interface is
implemented by code which is part of systemd.

But when the systemd developers effectively control both the API
definition and the API implementation, the question whether or not such
a system is actually running systemd becomes largely academic: It's a
systemd system, just possibly one using a different way of managing
processes.





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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/12/2015 17:39, John Hughes a écrit :

But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?


It's poluting the depending packages, the repository, and apt 
cache. And it can only be built from upstream systemd source, which 
means it's imposed on you in some way, even if you don't want it.


Imagine if you had to install a similar library for every 
non-installed software!


  Mitt Green wrote on 18/12/2015 16:51:

he same thing applies to libpulse and libselinux.


So there were already two like this. Note that one of those is also 
by Poettering.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 19/12/15 10:21, John Hughes wrote:

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:39:26 +0100
John Hughes  wrote:


On 18/12/15 17:18, Mitt Green wrote:

No, the actual work on packages that remove libsystemd0 dependency.
I've done quite of it for my machine. Notable examples include
angband repositories apart from Devuan's own. Adam made a big
base removing the dependency.

But why?  What badness does libsystemd0 do?

I don't know.

Here's what I do know. Before 12/18/2015 (today), not one single email
from "John Hughes" has been posted to dng@lists.dyne.org. Today
(12/18/2015), there have been 10 (and counting) "John Hughes" emails,


Yes I've only been reading the list as a lurker up to now.


most of which tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell me 
why it is.


I will give you a good reason why systemd is bad, if you try to remove 
it from debian, it also removes your desktop etc.





  and one of
which seemed to say that you need remove systemd dependencies only from
*direct* systemdlib0 dependencies, and not the sub-dependencies, and
that makes no sense to me at all.


Huh?  if a depends on b which depends on c which depends on 
libsystemd0 then only c needs modification to remove that dependancy, 
not a or b.


One of the reasons LKCL's post was met with such derision was his 
claim that over 4000 packages depended on libsystemd0, when the real 
number is 74.




But when I hear "John Hughes" post several "libsystemd0 isn't that bad"
posts on his very first day, well, Mr. Hughes' credibility descends.
And when his credibility descends, one must consider the possibility
that he's here only to stir up conflict. It's been tried before, and it
works very poorly on this list.


I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove 
libsystemd0, replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge steaming 
elephant turd in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.


Why?, Linux worked very well before 'logind' appeared.

Now please go away, Troll

Rowland


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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 11:58, dev1fanboy wrote:

Gnome

If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l


We're going round in circles.  *I* posted that command:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151218.143549.77d859b4.en.html

But you still haven't said *why* you want to remove libsystemd0.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 19/12/15 10:53, John Hughes wrote:

On 19/12/15 11:28, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 19/12/15 10:21, John Hughes wrote:

On 18/12/15 19:40, Steve Litt wrote:



most of [ JH's posts ] tended to say "libsystemd0 isn't that bad",


I don't think it's that bad, and, despite my asking nobody can tell 
me why it is.


I will give you a good reason why systemd is bad, if you try to 
remove it from debian, it also removes your desktop etc.


Are you talking about libsystemd0?  Because it's not true that 
removing systemd from Debian will remove your desktop.  If you are 
talking about libsystemd0 why do you want to remove it?  All I see are 
circular arguments -- "libsystemd0" is bad because removing it breaks 
things, so we must remove it.


Look, you troll, If you 'apt-get remove systemd' on debian, it will 
remove Gnome or Mate, I know I tried. Anything that does this, is *BAD* 
in my books.


Will somebody please do what debian does when somebody says systemd is 
bad on their mailing list -- Ban him!


Rowland







I decided to post to the list because it seems to me that you're all 
fiddling around with cosmetic parts of the problem (remove 
libsystemd0, replace udev and so on) while ignoring the huge 
steaming elephant turd in the middle of the room -- logind.


Without a functional replacement for logind then Devuan is doomed.


Why?, Linux worked very well before 'logind' appeared.



Maybe, but it doesn't now, so either you stick to wheezy or you fix 
the problem.  Ignoring it won't make it go away.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 19/12/15 11:02, John Hughes wrote:

On 19/12/15 11:58, dev1fanboy wrote:

Gnome

If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l


We're going round in circles.  *I* posted that command:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151218.143549.77d859b4.en.html

But you still haven't said *why* you want to remove libsystemd0.


OK, how about this, I have a pathological hatred of systemd and will not 
use it, is that good enough for you ?


Rowland




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[DNG] Apply Rainer's patch to netman.

[Edward Bartolo]

On 15/12/2015, Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
> Some more remarks on the packaging efforts so far: The rules file in the
> git repository is
>
> --
> #!/usr/bin/make -f
>
> %:
> dh $@ --with quilt,python2
>
> override_dh_auto_clean:
> dh_auto_clean
>
> override_dh_auto_configure:
> #fpc  -MObjFPC -Scghi -Tlinux -vewn -Filib/x86_64-linux
> -Fl/opt/gnome/lib -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux/gtk2
> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux
> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/components/lazut
> lazbuild -B netman.lpr && cd backend_src/src && gcc -lm -I../include
> core_functions.c file_functions.c backend.c essid_encoder.c
> automated_scanner.c -o backend
>
> override_dh_auto_build:
> 
>
> this is as bizarre as it is completely useless. Debhelper will use the
> package Makefile with a target of 'all' in order to build the package
> and with a target of 'install' in order to install it into the staging
> area. None of the overrides is needed. The Makefile doesn't have an
> install target.
>
> With the following changes, the packages get built as intended:
>
> ---
> diff --git a/Makefile b/Makefile
> index 55df54f..6b263d7 100644
> --- a/Makefile
> +++ b/Makefile
> @@ -13,5 +13,13 @@ clean:
> rm -f lib/*/*.*
> rm -f backend netman
>
> -.PHONY: all clean
> +.PHONY: all clean install
>
> +INST :=install -o root -g root
> +INST_X := $(INST) -m 0755
> +INST_D := $(INST) -m 0644
> +
> +install: all
> +   $(INST_X) -d $(DESTDIR)
> +   $(INST_X) netman backend_src/bin/backend $(DESTDIR)
> +   $(INST_D) netman.ico netman.desktop $(DESTDIR)
> diff --git a/debian/netman-backend.install b/debian/netman-backend.install
> index 5028afe..f7832d3 100644
> --- a/debian/netman-backend.install
> +++ b/debian/netman-backend.install
> @@ -1 +1 @@
> -backend_src/src/backend /usr/lib/netman/bin
> \ No newline at end of file
> +backend /usr/lib/netman/bin
> diff --git a/debian/rules b/debian/rules
> index 0e6d2ad..bf3a311 100755
> --- a/debian/rules
> +++ b/debian/rules
> @@ -2,12 +2,3 @@
>
>  %:
> dh $@ --with quilt,python2
> -
> -override_dh_auto_clean:
> -   dh_auto_clean
> -
> -override_dh_auto_configure:
> -   #fpc  -MObjFPC -Scghi -Tlinux -vewn -Filib/x86_64-linux
> -Fl/opt/gnome/lib -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux/gtk2
> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/lcl/units/x86_64-linux
> -Fu/usr/lib/lazarus/1.2.4/components/lazut
> -   lazbuild -B netman.lpr && cd backend_src/src && gcc -lm -I../include
> core_functions.c file_functions.c backend.c essid_encoder.c
> automated_scanner.c -o backend
> -
> -override_dh_auto_build:
> 
>
> NB: The backend permissions will need to be fixed up in a maintainer
> script.
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Hi,

I created a .patch file by copying and pasting the patch supplied by
Rainer, read above. I have the fully restored and up to date netman
sources, but I am not sure whether as typed below "git patch" should
actually apply the patch properly.

The command:
edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git patch
../rainer_dng-15.12.2015.patch

I also read that the patch can be saved/archived into git, and I think
it is the proper way it should be done.

Can I safely run the command as shown and if possible tell git to
archive/save the patch?

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Local netman sources fully restored.

[KatolaZ]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 08:09:39AM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Finally, I fully restored my local netman sources from a full system
> backup I made on the 8th December 2015. Updating was a matter of only
> deleting the netman/debian directory and using "git pull".
> 
> My goal was always to use the least invasive of methods to recover my
> sources. This was why I was very cautious about using any git command
> that would impact the uploaded sources.
> 
> This experience is shouting at me to always keep a backup whenever I git push.
> 

Please allow me tpo disagree with your statement. This experience is
shouting at you to always read the documentation of a software before
using it. There is no need at all to make a backup whenever you git
push something, and your fear about git pull is just due to not being
confident enough in using git, or not having understood well how git
works. There is no shame in "not knowing" or "not underdtanding". Both
are just normal states, very common in all human beings, and can be
cured by studying.

There are ways in git to recover from almost any damage you can ever
think of making to your repository, without the need to make a backup
before every single pull. The "magic" recipes are in the git manual,
and some bits of that knowledge have been gently offered to you in
this ML. Books are made to be read, suggestions to be pondered, tips
to be tried.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[dev1fanboy]

Gnome

If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l



 
On Saturday, December 19, 2015 10:45 AM, John Hughes 
 wrote:

 

On 19/12/15 11:40, dev1fanboy wrote:
You have to avoid many other packages to avoid systemd and in some 
cases you will end up with systemd support that you don't want 
anyway.

 

For example?

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[DNG] Question on Devuan

[R. W. Rodolico]

I've been lurking for a while, and I'm getting close to a decision
point. I have been using Debian for well over a decade, but Jessie
appears to be too unstable. The two machines I installed it on had
issues bad enough that I reverted to Wheezy (reformat/reinstall).

Thing is, I mainly deal in servers. I really don't care that much what
workstation OS I use; Mac, Windows, Linux; so long as I can ssh to my
servers that is all I care about.

As was mentioned earlier, PHP can not be upgraded on Wheezy, so I have
been looking around for a replacement. I'm currently playing with
FreeBSD, and keeping an eye on Devuan.

Is Devuan mature enough to use on a server yet? Most of the work I see
is on what I consider workstation stuff; netman, etc... Does that mean
the server stuff is pretty stable already?

This is my livelyhood, so I'm definitely not wanting to jump into
anything. Almost lost a customer over the instability of Jessie.

Bottom line is, as a server (no GUI, no netman, no games, no Libre, just
a basic OS that allows me to install Apache/Postfix/MariaDB), do you
feel Devuan is ready for some serious consideration yet, or should I
wait another few months. Oh, we are heavily into virtualization using
Xen also.

BTW, while I can not contribute the skills necessary at this point, my
offer of a mirror still stands, whenever that becomes needed. Resources
I have, but my programming skills are so far out of date I'd be a
liability. But, resources I would be happy to share when/if you need them.

Rod
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POB 140465
Dallas TX 75214-0465
214.827.2170
http://www.dailydata.net
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/19/2015 01:05 PM, John Hughes wrote:

people who don't want to use systemd are forced into running broken
systems, so I would like to see useful work towards making it possible
to easily run alternatives to systemd.


You're obviously ignorant :)

Rock-solid Debian-jessie-based system without systemd et al (including 
logind, libsystemd0. *-shim etc..)


https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs-rc1.3057/

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151013.005909.eadfd010.en.html

have a good day :)

Dragan
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Re: [DNG] Local netman sources fully restored.

[aitor_czr]

Hi Katolaz,

On 12/19/2015 10:52 AM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 08:09:39AM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>Finally, I fully restored my local netman sources from a full system
>backup I made on the 8th December 2015. Updating was a matter of only
>deleting the netman/debian directory and using "git pull".
>
>My goal was always to use the least invasive of methods to recover my
>sources. This was why I was very cautious about using any git command
>that would impact the uploaded sources.
>
>This experience is shouting at me to always keep a backup whenever I git push.
>

Please allow me tpo disagree with your statement. This experience is
shouting at you to always read the documentation of a software before
using it. There is no need at all to make a backup whenever you git
push something, and your fear about git pull is just due to not being
confident enough in using git, or not having understood well how git
works. There is no shame in "not knowing" or "not underdtanding". Both
are just normal states, very common in all human beings, and can be
cured by studying.

There are ways in git to recover from almost any damage you can ever
think of making to your repository, without the need to make a backup
before every single pull. The "magic" recipes are in the git manual,
and some bits of that knowledge have been gently offered to you in
this ML. Books are made to be read, suggestions to be pondered, tips
to be tried.

HND

KatolaZ



I agree, but tags are usefull.


Here you are an example with linux-libre:


$ git clone https://gitlab.com/aitor_cz/linux-libre.git
Cloning into 'linux-libre'...
remote: Counting objects: 51541, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (46325/46325), done.
remote: Total 51541 (delta 4325), reused 51541 (delta 4325)
Receiving objects: 100% (51541/51541), 145.84 MiB | 2.46 MiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (4325/4325), done.
Checking connectivity... done.
Checking out files: 100% (47305/47305), done.


$ cd linux-libre


$ git checkout gbp-master/3.16.7-gnu-6
Note: checking out 'gbp-master/3.16.7-gnu-6'.

You are in 'detached HEAD' state. You can look around, make experimental
changes and commit them, and you can discard any commits you make in this
state without impacting any branches by performing another checkout.

If you want to create a new branch to retain commits you create, you may
do so (now or later) by using -b with the checkout command again. Example:

  git checkout -b new_branch_name

HEAD is now at c17308d... modified:   debian/changelog


$ ls
arch CREDITS  Documentation  fs   ipc  kernel Makefile  
README  scripts   tools
blockcrypto   driversinclude  Kbuild   lib mm
REPORTING-BUGS  security  usr
COPYING  debian   firmware   init Kconfig  MAINTAINERS net   
samples sound virt



$ git status
HEAD detached at gbp-master/3.16.7-gnu-6
nothing to commit, working directory clean


We have a *detached* HEAD, and we can't work in this stage. Let's give a 
name to the branch:



$ git checkout -b the_name_of_the_branch


$ git status
On branch the_name_of_the_branch
nothing to commit, working directory clean


HTH,

  Aitor.




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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 19/12/15 14:34, Dragan FOSS wrote:

On 12/19/2015 01:05 PM, John Hughes wrote:

people who don't want to use systemd are forced into running broken
systems, so I would like to see useful work towards making it possible
to easily run alternatives to systemd.


You're obviously ignorant :)


Apparently.




Rock-solid Debian-jessie-based system without systemd et al (including 
logind, libsystemd0. *-shim etc..)


https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs-rc1.3057/

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151013.005909.eadfd010.en.html


And all the little no-systemd irritations are fixed? hibernation/suspend 
and so on?


Why isn't this Devuan?

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/19/2015 02:45 PM, John Hughes wrote:

And all the little no-systemd irritations are fixed? hibernation/suspend
and so on?


I don't know...you can try for yourself.. :)
BTW, I think that list of "little no-systemd irritations.." is much 
shorter than list of systemd irritations ;)




Why isn't this Devuan?


TRIOS is much older project than Devuan :)

Dragan
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[dev1fanboy]

It still answers your question, and you haven't responded to what I 
said about gnome.


In the previous response you didn't reply to what I said about Devuan 
not being *just* about systemd either.


I think you misunderstand me, I don't want to remove any part of 
systemd. Can you show what I said that gave you this impression?




On Saturday, December 19, 2015 11:02 AM, John Hughes 
 wrote:

 

On 19/12/15 11:58, dev1fanboy wrote:

Gnome

If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l

We're going round in circles.  *I* posted that command:


https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151218.143549.77d859b4.en.html

But you still haven't said *why* you want to remove libsystemd0.

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