Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 12:08:19PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> > but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> > Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> > celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> > azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> > incoherence there.
> 
> What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
> (you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
> The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that ${company} 
> now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole reason they are 
> doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they think there's money to be made 
> from it. I think you'll find that most of the hosting outfits are in it to 
> make money - sorry if the idea that someone is allowed to make a profit 
> upsets some sensitive types.
> 

I have never had problems with people making money out of Free
Software. I paid bills for several years in that way. And also Richard
Stallman himself has done the same, just to make a notable example.

Only, I have never seen a party organised to celebrate, say,
DigitalOcean (replace it with whatever other provider you have in
mind) supporting Debian Jessie. The real support to GNU/Linux and
Debian has come from silent hackers. That's why I get suspicious when
trumpets start blowing "Linux" or "Debian", especially if the one who
blows them is a corporate which makes money prevalently with
closed-source software, and has done all was in its power to denigrate
Free and Open Source Software in the last 15 years.

[cut]

> 
> Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an ulterior 
> motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. What I am sure 
> about though is that talking as though there's nothing MS, RH, and certain 
> others do that isn't driven by some "bad intention" sends out a bad message 
> that is off-putting to some and plays into the hands of others.
> I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at an 
> evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to 
> a large number of people.
> 

Sorry, but I can't see any evangelisation taking place here. Just
civilised discussions, implying the expression of opinions which might
diverge, at some point.  If this is off-putting, then you are probably
not used to discussions.

My opinion is that whatever comes from a corporate is to be considered
as potentially harmful, for the simple reason that the natural
(obvious and correct) aim of corporates is to make money for
themselves, not to help hackers make their own dreams happen. This is
not an evangelical message. It's just one opinion, that you can accept
or reject, but would hardly be able to change without substantial
evidence.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Simon Hobson]

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> incoherence there.

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that ${company} now 
supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole reason they are doing it 
where ${OS}==Debian is because they think there's money to be made from it. I 
think you'll find that most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - 
sorry if the idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some 
sensitive types.


> The user base of Debian is already the largest, in the server
> industry, without Microsoft intervention. And this is the "problem"
> Microsoft would like to "solve" with this "smart" move, IMHO.

Maybe, I can see that their motive may not be entirely "pure".


I'll point out that I am certainly no fan of MS or their (proven illegal) 
business practices. I'm well recognised in the office for it - and it's hard 
working in a small services company that's effectively an "MS shop". But 
there's a difference between disliking them and how they do things, and having 
an irrational complex that *everything* they do is all about their dodgy 
practices.

Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an ulterior 
motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. What I am sure 
about though is that talking as though there's nothing MS, RH, and certain 
others do that isn't driven by some "bad intention" sends out a bad message 
that is off-putting to some and plays into the hands of others.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at an 
evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to a 
large number of people.

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Marlon Nunes]

On 2016-01-21 09:32, KatolaZ wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 12:08:19PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> incoherence there.

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that 
${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole 
reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they think 
there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that most of the 
hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the idea that 
someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive types.




I have never had problems with people making money out of Free
Software. I paid bills for several years in that way. And also Richard
Stallman himself has done the same, just to make a notable example.

Only, I have never seen a party organised to celebrate, say,
DigitalOcean (replace it with whatever other provider you have in
mind) supporting Debian Jessie. The real support to GNU/Linux and
Debian has come from silent hackers. That's why I get suspicious when
trumpets start blowing "Linux" or "Debian", especially if the one who
blows them is a corporate which makes money prevalently with
closed-source software, and has done all was in its power to denigrate
Free and Open Source Software in the last 15 years.

[cut]



Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an 
ulterior motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. 
What I am sure about though is that talking as though there's nothing 
MS, RH, and certain others do that isn't driven by some "bad 
intention" sends out a bad message that is off-putting to some and 
plays into the hands of others.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at 
an evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very 
off-putting to a large number of people.




Sorry, but I can't see any evangelisation taking place here. Just
civilised discussions, implying the expression of opinions which might
diverge, at some point.  If this is off-putting, then you are probably
not used to discussions.

My opinion is that whatever comes from a corporate is to be considered
as potentially harmful, for the simple reason that the natural
(obvious and correct) aim of corporates is to make money for
themselves, not to help hackers make their own dreams happen. This is
not an evangelical message. It's just one opinion, that you can accept
or reject, but would hardly be able to change without substantial
evidence.

My2Cents

KatolaZ


+1

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[dev1fanboy]

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 12:08 PM, Simon Hobson  
wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 

 
> Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an ulterior
> motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. What I am sure
> about though is that talking as though there's nothing MS, RH, and certain
> others do that isn't driven by some "bad intention" sends out a bad
> message that is off-putting to some and plays into the hands of others.
> I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at an
> evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting
> to a large number of people.

So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we voice our 
opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in the free software 
community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to debian because otherwise we're 
elitists.  

> 
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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Mat]

On 21/01/16 11:20, Simon Hobson wrote:
> Daniel Reurich  wrote:
> 
>> perhaps doing the same thing as init-system-helpers dh_systemd package
>> to add support for runit into each respective package.
> 
> That's the logical way to do it - the init script(s) should be part of the 
> package. The downside of that is the requirement for every package maintainer 
> (team) to understand and support multiple init systems - or for someone 
> supporting an init system to become a maintainer on lots of packages.

Indeed this is a much better way, and it also guarantees that init
scripts remain in sync as packages receive updates.

-- 
Mat 



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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:12:08AM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

[cut]

> 
> 
> I have to say that some of what I see written on this list plays right into 
> the "bunch of hippies with an axe to grind" stereotype some people like to 
> bash GNU/Linux/FOSS with.
> I realise some people have strong views on some things. I can't help getting 
> the feeling that some people are letting prejudice and hatred for certain 
> people or projects cloud their judgement. Yes there are real technical 
> reasons for wanting to avoid SystemD, there are no real technical reasons for 
> believing that someone can't work for Microsoft and on Debian while also 
> having integrity.
> 
> 

Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
incoherence there.

The user base of Debian is already the largest, in the server
industry, without Microsoft intervention. And this is the "problem"
Microsoft would like to "solve" with this "smart" move, IMHO.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

[1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Didier Kryn]

Le 20/01/2016 23:25, dev1fanboy a écrit :

Not surprising. They already threw a party for Debian 8 (not debian in general, 
but debian 8).

http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debian-8-linuxfest/

The ethical break down is enough of a reason for them to throw a party imho.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:19 PM, Mitt Green  
wrote:

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/debian-images-now-available-on-azure/

Debian will be offered as an endorsed operating system in Azure
Marketplace.
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Let me underline a few words of the documents:

"[the fest is] hosted by Jose Miguel Parrella, a Debian Developer and 
member of Microsoft’s Open Source Strategy team"


It's absolutely amazing that one can be a Debian developper and a 
member of Microsoft in the same time. Yes, that's an ethical break down 
of the whole Debian project.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/01/2016 05:57, Simon Wise a écrit :

On 19/01/16 04:59, Steve Litt wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
Simon Wise  wrote:


But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects
to the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
functionality). I dropped it in favour of roxterminal which is very
similar, based on the same engine I believe, but it does the cut
buffer and clipboard etc directly, as it should.


Hi Simon,

Thanks to your recommendation, I just started using roxterm. What a
breath of fresh air! Tabbed. Multiple profiles mean all sorts of
different terminals for different needs. No unholy union to a "desktop
environment" other than the rox filemanager system.


they are independent, I think ... though perhaps some D might be a
bit cleaner between them??? they both just interact with X and allow
extensive file-based configuration if you want to use it. Last time I
tried both worked fine just in X alone, no other management.



I need several different types of terminal emulators for several
different types of jobs. From now on I'm using roxterm instead of
xfce4-terminal for all new construction.


"profiles" can easily be invoked on CL if you want distinctive
appearance to indicate different tasks.


Simon


I installed roxterm and rox-filer. Both are just nice behaving. 
roxterm doesn't seem to differ in apearence, configurability or 
behaviour, from xfce4-terminal or gnome-terminal.


rox-filer is nice looking, but it needs some configuration. Here 
are the two waek points I noticed


- there is absolutely no application defined by default for any 
file type; you must define them all - this is a miss in the packaging.
- there isn't a menu of possible applications for a given file 
type. I like to be able to open an image with either a simple viewer or 
with Gimp to edit it.


And here are some features I like:

- If you left-click with the shift key pressed, you always open the 
file with the application you have defined for raw text. This allows to 
edit an html file instead of browsing it.


- files are open on single click (double click in Thunar), though 
this is a personal preference.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Simon Hobson]

Daniel Reurich  wrote:

> perhaps doing the same thing as init-system-helpers dh_systemd package
> to add support for runit into each respective package.

That's the logical way to do it - the init script(s) should be part of the 
package. The downside of that is the requirement for every package maintainer 
(team) to understand and support multiple init systems - or for someone 
supporting an init system to become a maintainer on lots of packages.

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Simon Hobson]

Didier Kryn  wrote:

>It's absolutely amazing that one can be a Debian developper and a member 
> of Microsoft in the same time. Yes, that's an ethical break down of the whole 
> Debian project.

I think some people are reading more into this than they should.
There is no reason whatsoever that someone can not have a foot in both camps 
without there being any conflict. Microsoft isn't a single person, it's not 
even one "group" - there are different activities going on in there (and the 
same applies to Debian). So it's quite feasible that they would have people 
working on "open source" stuff without that compromising on those same people 
working on FOSS projects.

As to why Microsoft would support Debian, and why they'd only support Debian 8 ?
Simple economics. If people are looking to run Debian in the cloud, then 
Microsoft can support that, or they can watch as potential customers go to 
someone else. And if Microsoft can't host it and the customer goes elsewhere, 
then that customer may well decide to take their other (Windows) stuff 
elsewhere as well rather than deal with multiple cloud providers.
As to why only Debian 8 and not anything else - well it's logical that they'd 
only add support for the currently supported stable version. Had they added 
support for Debian (say) a year or so ago then they might have started with 
Debian 7 as that was then the currently supported stable version. It would be a 
hard sell to say "hey guys, lets put investment into an old version that's 
almost out of support" :-/

That really is something that anyone with a few brain cells switched on should 
be capable of understanding. It doesn't require any underlying conspiracy 
theory, it doesn't require any assumption that they are trying their usual 
"embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactics, just that some of the managers there 
actually have some clue about doing business in the real world.
That extends to their apparent epiphany in now supporting what they used to 
call a cancer. It's simply a realisation on the part of those who actually do 
understand, that FOSS is here to stay and they can either accept that or lock 
themselves out of an increasing part of the IT world.

I'm not saying that there is no element within MS still trying to embrace, 
extend, and extinguish - just that you don't need to assume that to understand 
why they might support things like Debian.


Turning this around a bit, suppose someone from MS came along and asked one or 
more of your guys "some of our clients are demanding Devuan support on Azure, 
will you come and work part time on making that happen ?" - what would your 
response be ?

Would it be "hell no, I'm not working for MS *because* it's MS"
Or would it be, "yes - it's MS, but it's getting Devuan to a wider user base ?"


I have to say that some of what I see written on this list plays right into the 
"bunch of hippies with an axe to grind" stereotype some people like to bash 
GNU/Linux/FOSS with.
I realise some people have strong views on some things. I can't help getting 
the feeling that some people are letting prejudice and hatred for certain 
people or projects cloud their judgement. Yes there are real technical reasons 
for wanting to avoid SystemD, there are no real technical reasons for believing 
that someone can't work for Microsoft and on Debian while also having integrity.


As an aside, someone I know works for Redhat - I didn't realise he'd changed 
jobs until recently (he used to work for a private company that was a spinout 
from a university project). He's a nice guy, and very clever I might add. 
Should I think less of him because Redhat pays his wages ? He's not involved 
with systemd, nor anything else contentious AFAIK - he works on virtualisation, 
something many of us use. As it happens, as an Apple user I used to rely 
heavily on a (hidden in the OS) technology his previous employer came up with.

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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Simon Hobson]

Rainer Weikusat  wrote:

>> - Some headers to tell utilities what runlevels the service should run
>> at, and dependencies.
> 
> That's a LSB invention. It's a grotesque travesty as it uses 'magic
> comments' to embed a declarative mini programming language in an init
> script which is only ever used when modifying the runlevel
> configuration. Comments are supposed to be used for relatively short,
> free-style documentation embedded in code, not for interpretation by
> programs.

Presumably you have a suitable alternative, that's "backwards compatible", 
admin accessible, and makes sense to others ?


>> - A ". include" to pull in some standard functions - makes sense, no
>> point everyone building their own wheel.
> 
> Insofar these functions are generally useful, ie, not just carp like
> "print a RED message", they ought to become proper programs which could
> then be used in init scripts or elsewhere.

Well since (I suspect) most of them don't have much (if any) applicability 
outside of init scripts, I'd say a library of common functions as an include 
makes sense. Do you also object to libraries of common functions in other 
languages ?

>> - Check for, and if found, load a config file - eg
>> /etc/default/${service}
> 
> TOCTOU race. Running
> 
> [ -r /etc/default/sendmail ] && . /etc/default/sendmail
> 
> doesn't mean /etc/default/sendmail will still be available when the
> source command is executed. Since the shell is (for the sendmail init
> script) running without -e at this point, the test can just be dropped.

Strictly speaking, yes you are correct. However, unless there is something 
seriously wrong with the system then /etc/default/${program} isn't going to be 
appearing or disappearing at this time. However, as it is an optional file for 
many programs, it does (IMO) make sense to handle whether it is there or not, 
rather than "just fail" with an ugly message.

This is one area where I think we'll need to agree to disagree.
I'm of the school that believes programs should handle "reasonably foreseeable" 
situations gracefully rather than spitting out whatever error message the 
underlying language uses which may or may not make sense to to the user/admin. 
I think we've all seen errors along the lines of "flurble error at line 2057" 
which mean nothing whatsoever to the user - but on calling the helpdesk they 
tell you "oh yes, your flibble config file is missing a blurble definition". In 
that sort of case, the error message should be more like "no blurble definition 
found in config".

Yes I suppose you could just do ". /etc/default/sendmail 2> /dev/null" but that 
then means you also throw away real error messages that might happen, rather 
than simply and gracefully handling a foreseeable configuration state.


>> I suppose you can argue about things like "test for the executable
>> being present and executable before trying to run it" - is that cruft,
>> or simply sensible defensive programming ?
> 
> It's another TOCTOU race, ie, at best, it serves no purpose (trying to
> run a program which doesn't exist will fail, anyway), at worst, it's
> buggy.

There I admit we're getting into "shouldn't happen anyway, so don't bother 
testing for it" territory. The most likely scenario I can think of is that the 
user/admin modified the file and so the packaging tools didn't remove it - but 
the symlinks from /etc/rcn.d would have been removed. I "wouldn't be upset" if 
that test was omitted.

> One of the more bizarre arguments in favour of systemd is that most of
> the crap code is now invisible :->. But it will aditionally acquire all
> kinds of "test that the sea is of the right pink" code hacked together
> as Bourne shell code because that's the most thoughtless approach for
> accomplishing anything[*].
> 
> [*] Insofar systemd doesn't already allow executing embedded /bin/sh
> code, someone will sooner or later at magic comments enabling that :->>.

I agree.




Rainer Weikusat  wrote:

> The sendmail init scripts is 1340 lines long, 901 of which contain code.

I wasn't aware of that, I am inclined to agree that it sounds "way too much"

> In contrast to this, "about 40 lines" is entirely reasonable.

Well I've just looked on one of my systems, and picked one script - ntp
70 lines
Looking at the code I don't believe it's excessive.

- The aforementioned magic comments. Yes it's a hack, but got a better idea ?
- Set some paths for use later - IMO this is "a good thing", much better than 
scattering them throughout the code.
- Check for the presence of a couple of optional config files, and load them if 
present. One of these is from another package that may or may not be installed 
so it's completely reasonable to see if it's there before trying to use it.

- Define some stuff around having a lockfile between ntp and ntpdate. I do 
wonder how ${other_init_system} handles this ?

- And then the case statement that handles 

Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Daniel Reurich]

> As I mentioned before, I run quite a bunch of Debian servers (wheezy
> and jessie) with runit as both process supervisor and init system.
> To simplify deployment I wrote small debian packages for my run
> scripts. It's definitely not production ready, but it's been working
> for me for years.
> 
> My packages work by diverting the original /etc/init.d/XX script and 
> replacing it with a link to /usr/bin/sv, so it's plugs in quite
> nicely in debian (i.e. you can still call /etc/init.d/XX
> {start|stop}).
> 
> If anyone want to have a look at a possible way of integrating runit 
> with debian and experiment with it, I have an apt repository[1] and
> the sources online[2].
> 
> [1] https://parad0x.org/apt/ [2] https://parad0x.org/git/debian-run/
> 
> I'm not sure that this kind of packaging is the way forward for
> devuan though, it can be heavy to have to maintain sysv startup
> scripts and run scripts for all services. I'd love to have a
> discussion on supporting multiple init systems at some point (after
> stable is released).
> 
> PS: watch out with the runit-init package, it's a bit brutal/broken, 
> since it replaces /sbin/{reboot|halt|shutdown} with runit
> equivalents, it's tricky to do a clean initial reboot after the
> package is installed when the system still runs from sysvinit. I'll
> fix this when I get the time.
> 
perhaps doing the same thing as init-system-helpers dh_systemd package
to add support for runit into each respective package.  This way each
package has it's own runit scripts included in the package but they are
only deployed and set up if runit-init is installed.  This is done using
hooks in dpkg... I'm a bit vague on the details at this stage, but have
a look at the source for init-systemd-helpers for details.




-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Mat]

On 20/01/16 20:57, Steve Litt wrote:
> People aren't completely alone on run scripts: I can give them any run
> scripts I'm using. Also, Runit run scripts are *nothing* like sysvinit
> or OpenRC init scripts: Most are five lines or less, few are over 10
> lines.

As I mentioned before, I run quite a bunch of Debian servers (wheezy and
jessie) with runit as both process supervisor and init system. To
simplify deployment I wrote small debian packages for my run scripts.
It's definitely not production ready, but it's been working for me for
years.

My packages work by diverting the original /etc/init.d/XX script and
replacing it with a link to /usr/bin/sv, so it's plugs in quite nicely
in debian (i.e. you can still call /etc/init.d/XX {start|stop}).

If anyone want to have a look at a possible way of integrating runit
with debian and experiment with it, I have an apt repository[1] and the
sources online[2].

[1] https://parad0x.org/apt/
[2] https://parad0x.org/git/debian-run/

I'm not sure that this kind of packaging is the way forward for devuan
though, it can be heavy to have to maintain sysv startup scripts and run
scripts for all services. I'd love to have a discussion on supporting
multiple init systems at some point (after stable is released).

PS: watch out with the runit-init package, it's a bit brutal/broken,
since it replaces /sbin/{reboot|halt|shutdown} with runit equivalents,
it's tricky to do a clean initial reboot after the package is installed
when the system still runs from sysvinit. I'll fix this when I get the time.

Cheers,

-- 
Mat 



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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Simon Hobson]

dev1fanboy  wrote:

> So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we voice our 
> opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in the free software 
> community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to debian because otherwise we're 
> elitists.  

That's not what I said - and if it reads that way then I failed articulate my 
opinion well (wouldn't be the first time).

This is just the latest. There have been a few subjects that have come up where 
the undertone from some participants has been fairly solidly along the lines of 
"if it comes from X then it has to be bad" as though it's not possible for X to 
do anything other than totally bad, and do it for malicious reasons. When you 
get into that state of mind, then reasoned discussion is suppressed, and that 
doesn't promote a friendly atmosphere.

I agree that it's "quite unusual" to have a party to celebrate a hosting 
service supporting a particular OS - but given the hostility in the past, it 
does seem to be something of a milestone, and I can see how someone might want 
to use that as an excuse for a party. I don't doubt that being employed by the 
hosting provider (I imagine specifically working making sure the compatibility 
is there) is partly behind that.

IMO, MS officially and actively supporting FOSS OSs on Azure is (based on their 
previous decade or two of rhetoric) a "world shifts on axis" event. If you'd 
asked me 5 years ago if I thought MS would "support Linux" then I'd have given 
a somewhat negative answer. But it's happened - so why the hell not have a 
party to celebrate what is effectively apublic admission that MS is actually 
influenced by the market ?


As an aside, does MS provide official images to run, or is it still BYO ? If 
the former, then suddenly it changes the legal situation as well as the 
practical.

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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Rainer Weikusat]

Hendrik Boom  writes:
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 09:14:48AM +, Simon Hobson wrote:
>
>> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>> 
>> > The sendmail init scripts is 1340 lines long, 901 of which contain code.
>> 
>> I wasn't aware of that, I am inclined to agree that it sounds "way too much"
>
> Presuably because sendmail is way too much.

It has been delivering all my e-mails without a single hiccup since 1998
and generally enabled me to cope with all kinds of 'weird situations',
eg, selecting a mail relay based on a sender address, with relative
ease.

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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:03:18AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 21/01/2016 05:57, Simon Wise a écrit :
> >On 19/01/16 04:59, Steve Litt wrote:
> >>On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
> >>Simon Wise  wrote:
> >>
> >>>But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
> >>>functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects
> >>>to the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
> >>>functionality). I dropped it in favour of roxterminal which is very
> >>>similar, based on the same engine I believe, but it does the cut
> >>>buffer and clipboard etc directly, as it should.
> >>
> >>Hi Simon,
> >>
> >>Thanks to your recommendation, I just started using roxterm. What a
> >>breath of fresh air! Tabbed. Multiple profiles mean all sorts of
> >>different terminals for different needs. No unholy union to a "desktop
> >>environment" other than the rox filemanager system.
> >
> >they are independent, I think ... though perhaps some D might be a
> >bit cleaner between them??? they both just interact with X and allow
> >extensive file-based configuration if you want to use it. Last time I
> >tried both worked fine just in X alone, no other management.
> >
> >
> >>I need several different types of terminal emulators for several
> >>different types of jobs. From now on I'm using roxterm instead of
> >>xfce4-terminal for all new construction.
> >
> >"profiles" can easily be invoked on CL if you want distinctive
> >appearance to indicate different tasks.
> >
> >
> >Simon
> 
> I installed roxterm and rox-filer. Both are just nice behaving.
> roxterm doesn't seem to differ in apearence, configurability or
> behaviour, from xfce4-terminal or gnome-terminal.
> 
> rox-filer is nice looking, but it needs some configuration. Here
> are the two waek points I noticed
> 
> - there is absolutely no application defined by default for any
> file type; you must define them all - this is a miss in the
> packaging.
> - there isn't a menu of possible applications for a given file
> type. I like to be able to open an image with either a simple viewer
> or with Gimp to edit it.
> 

So I tried installing it, and found that it recommended zeroinstall-injector.
Anyone know what this is?  It seems to be a "platform-independent 
package manager".  What does this mean in relation to rox-filer.  And 
how does it relate to apt and aptitude.

Might it alleviate some of the above complaints?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Hobson  writes:
> dev1fanboy  wrote:
>
>> So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we
>> voice our opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in
>> the free software community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to
>> debian because otherwise we're elitists.
>
> That's not what I said - and if it reads that way then I failed
> articulate my opinion well (wouldn't be the first time).
>
> This is just the latest. There have been a few subjects that have come
> up where the undertone from some participants has been fairly solidly
> along the lines of "if it comes from X then it has to be bad" as
> though it's not possible for X to do anything other than totally bad,
> and do it for malicious reasons. When you get into that state of mind,
> then reasoned discussion is suppressed, and that doesn't promote a
> friendly atmosphere.

In politics, this is called 'a conflict of interest' and "he who pays
the piper calls the tune" (or "Wes' Brot ich fress des' Lied ich sing" in
German) ought to be old enough to demonstrate that concerns about that
weren't recently invented by 'evil Linux zealots' in order to denigrate
all the good deeds of "Look sharp enough! The soft spot is surely hard
to see but there" angelic beings.

Actually, this whole unholy mixture of religious terms with technical
issues is an inventing of the company which wants its salesreps to be
called 'evanglists' for surely entirely a-religious reasons ...
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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/01/2016 12:33, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:03:18AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 21/01/2016 05:57, Simon Wise a écrit :

On 19/01/16 04:59, Steve Litt wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
Simon Wise  wrote:


But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects
to the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
functionality). I dropped it in favour of roxterminal which is very
similar, based on the same engine I believe, but it does the cut
buffer and clipboard etc directly, as it should.

Hi Simon,

Thanks to your recommendation, I just started using roxterm. What a
breath of fresh air! Tabbed. Multiple profiles mean all sorts of
different terminals for different needs. No unholy union to a "desktop
environment" other than the rox filemanager system.

they are independent, I think ... though perhaps some D might be a
bit cleaner between them??? they both just interact with X and allow
extensive file-based configuration if you want to use it. Last time I
tried both worked fine just in X alone, no other management.



I need several different types of terminal emulators for several
different types of jobs. From now on I'm using roxterm instead of
xfce4-terminal for all new construction.

"profiles" can easily be invoked on CL if you want distinctive
appearance to indicate different tasks.


Simon

 I installed roxterm and rox-filer. Both are just nice behaving.
roxterm doesn't seem to differ in apearence, configurability or
behaviour, from xfce4-terminal or gnome-terminal.

 rox-filer is nice looking, but it needs some configuration. Here
are the two waek points I noticed

 - there is absolutely no application defined by default for any
file type; you must define them all - this is a miss in the
packaging.
 - there isn't a menu of possible applications for a given file
type. I like to be able to open an image with either a simple viewer
or with Gimp to edit it.


So I tried installing it, and found that it recommended zeroinstall-injector.
Anyone know what this is?  It seems to be a "platform-independent
package manager".  What does this mean in relation to rox-filer.  And
how does it relate to apt and aptitude.

Might it alleviate some of the above complaints?

I always use apt-get install --no-install-recommends, or "default 
upgrade" in Synaptic. And I don't look at the recommended packages :-)


This "recommends" feature has become a kind of bin for packages the 
maintainers would like desperately to "require" for obscure reasons, but 
they fail to find a valid one.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Simon Hobson]

Mat  wrote:

>> That's the logical way to do it - the init script(s) should be part of the 
>> package. The downside of that is the requirement for every package 
>> maintainer (team) to understand and support multiple init systems - or for 
>> someone supporting an init system to become a maintainer on lots of packages.
> 
> Indeed this is a much better way, and it also guarantees that init
> scripts remain in sync as packages receive updates.

I was only partly thinking about updates - though that's important. It also 
means that every package has a script - assuming that it's an expectation that 
"a package isn't complete without one". If init scripts were provided 
separately, then there'd be a disconnect between packages available, and 
scripts to start them.

Thinking a bit more though ...
This is also probably behind some of the "issues" identified. Making an init 
script isn't a core part of the developer's task, and it's easy to see how 
making one can become a bit of a "grab a template and fudge with it till it 
works" task tacked on sometime.
In the electronics world, there's an expression "now throw it in a tin box" 
referring to the way many projects may have elegant circuits and so on - but 
then get shoved in some basic box with little thought to the aesthetics of the 
mechanical design because the person making it is an electronics person, not a 
cabinet maker.

So there is probably some merit in someone with the skills, motivation, and 
time offering **CONSTRUCTIVE** support to improve them across multiple projects.

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/01/2016 13:08, Simon Hobson a écrit :

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that ${company} now 
supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole reason they are doing it 
where ${OS}==Debian is because they think there's money to be made from it. I 
think you'll find that most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - 
sorry if the idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some 
sensitive types.


I don't know for Rackspace. But MS has a specific log of trying to 
kill FOSS and specifically Linux, by *all means*, including technical 
locking and abuse of law. I haven't seen any sign they're going to give 
up anytime soon on that fight, and I don't think here is such a sign: 
they earn a lot of profit and the little more they can gain with Linux 
on Azure is completely negligible in comparison with the strategic goal 
of killing Linux.


Maybe MS haven't any legal means to forbid their employees to work 
for Linux during their free time. Otherwise, they have other reasons to 
tolerate it.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 09:14:48AM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
> 
> > The sendmail init scripts is 1340 lines long, 901 of which contain code.
> 
> I wasn't aware of that, I am inclined to agree that it sounds "way too much"

Presuably because sendmail is way too much.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Mitt Green]

As long as this made some impact, I'd like
to point out that, in my opinion,
'tis not bad when particular people
work in particular companies, while
having a part time job in other projects.
Linux, GNU and their childer should not
be affiliated with companies such as Microsoft.
Microsoft has different market, their aims
are far from, let me say, ours. They care about shiny
stupid things like that user interface, they care about money,
how hard it would be for you if you use a pirate copy,
they don't have a particular philosophy, they don't care
about code quality at the end of the day.
And what's more important, they don't give a little flying
piece of you know what about what users want.

It seems to me that big corporations are evil nowadays.
Back then, there were HP, IBM and Bell Labs that invented
different and important software galore. Or maybe it was
because they were working on Unix?

GNU and Linux do not need outer control.


They are always free to make their own Linux
(as they already do, right?), will this also
mean that free software had won or not, 
doesn't really matter. It is already winning
on server market, in TOP500 lists, where
Windows is represented by only one machine.


I would still like to thank Microsoft,
because if their Windows 8 was working for me
without three BSODs in six months, I'd never be here.

‎
Sorry for the long rant,


// Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Clarke Sideroad]

On 21/01/16 08:21 AM, Marlon Nunes wrote:

On 2016-01-21 09:32, KatolaZ wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 12:08:19PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian 
Social

> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> incoherence there.

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that 
${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the 
sole reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they 
think there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that 
most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the 
idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive 
types.




I have never had problems with people making money out of Free
Software. I paid bills for several years in that way. And also Richard
Stallman himself has done the same, just to make a notable example.

Only, I have never seen a party organised to celebrate, say,
DigitalOcean (replace it with whatever other provider you have in
mind) supporting Debian Jessie. The real support to GNU/Linux and
Debian has come from silent hackers. That's why I get suspicious when
trumpets start blowing "Linux" or "Debian", especially if the one who
blows them is a corporate which makes money prevalently with
closed-source software, and has done all was in its power to denigrate
Free and Open Source Software in the last 15 years.

[cut]



Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an 
ulterior motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. 
What I am sure about though is that talking as though there's 
nothing MS, RH, and certain others do that isn't driven by some "bad 
intention" sends out a bad message that is off-putting to some and 
plays into the hands of others.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being 
at an evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very 
off-putting to a large number of people.




Sorry, but I can't see any evangelisation taking place here. Just
civilised discussions, implying the expression of opinions which might
diverge, at some point.  If this is off-putting, then you are probably
not used to discussions.

My opinion is that whatever comes from a corporate is to be considered
as potentially harmful, for the simple reason that the natural
(obvious and correct) aim of corporates is to make money for
themselves, not to help hackers make their own dreams happen. This is
not an evangelical message. It's just one opinion, that you can accept
or reject, but would hardly be able to change without substantial
evidence.

My2Cents

KatolaZ


+1



Most of the computers I have to lay my hands on are desktops or 
workstations running some form of M$ Windows, that is my reality.
In the world in which we live it has been changed enough by GNU/Linux, 
that Microsoft openly admits Linux into "their" space, now that is IMHO 
good, they really didn't have a choice.


I am bothered by the historical view that every one who shakes hands 
with Microsoft seems at best to come away missing a few fingers, and 
that list is long.


I personally have been a Linux user since 1997 and switched to Debian 
around the turn of the Century after I had found Redhat was limiting my 
choices and I had bounced between distros for a while.


In a sense I have a foot in both camps.

That Debian has been perverted so far from its original path and is 
running counter to its reason for being as envisioned by the late Ian 
Murdock makes me sick to my stomach.


Long live Devuan!

Clarke

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Re: [DNG] desktop-base package review

[Rainer Weikusat]

Daniel Reurich  writes:
> I'd like some other eyes to look over my code and point out any
> improvements/flaw.
>
> I haven't tested the code for setting the GRUB_THEME variable in
> /etc/default/grub (in debian/postinst) and I think it's rather crude to
> do it that way.

Some comments on that:


$DEFAULT_GRUB="/etc/default/grub"


The $ seems to be a syntax error.


update-boot(){
if [ -n $1 ]; then
case $1 in
commented)
echo -e "\n$DEF_GRUB_COMMENT\n# $DEF_GRUB_SETTING" >> 
$DEFAULT_GRUB
return
;;
*)
echo -e "\n$DEF_GRUB_COMMENT\n$DEF_GRUB_SETTING" >> 
$DEFAULT_GRUB
;;
esac
fi 

if which update-grub2 > /dev/null ; then
sync
update-grub2 || true
fi

if [ -x /usr/sbin/update-initramfs ]; then
update-initramfs -u
fi
}


It should be possible to express this as (untested)

---
update_boot() {
if [ "$1" = commented ]; then
echo -e "\n$DEF_GRUB_COMMENT\n# $DEF_GRUB_SETTING" >> 
$DEFAULT_GRUB
return
fi   

echo -e "\n$DEF_GRUB_COMMENT\n$DEF_GRUB_SETTING" >>$DEFAULT_GRUB

if which update-grub2 > /dev/null ; then
sync
update-grub2 || true
fi

if [ -x /usr/sbin/update-initramfs ]; then
update-initramfs -u
fi
}


IMHO, considering the use of printf instead of echo -e is also
worthwhile, as in

printf '\n%s\n#% s\n' "$DEF_GRUB_COMMENT" "$DEF_GRUB_SETTING" >> $DEFAULT_GRUB


   while read confline; do
case confline in
$DEF_GRUB_COMMENT)
theme_default_conf=true;
;;
$DEF_GRUB_SETTING)
theme_parm="matching"
;;
"#$DEF_GRUB_SETTING"|"# $DEF_GRUB_SETTING")
theme_parm="disabled"
--

missing ;;

--
GRUB_THEME=*)
theme_parm="modified"
;;
esac
done
-

This reads from stdin which was probably not intended.
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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Joel Roth]

Joel Roth wrote:
> Steve Litt wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> 
> How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's
> init.d script is 275 lines.

I see there is a library of scripts for runit,
although the page seems somewhat stale.
For example, exim 3 only.

http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html#exim

Most of the scripts are quite simple. 

An advantage to runit is that the pid 1 program
is very brief.
 
> Joel
> 
> > SteveT
> > 
> > Steve Litt 
> > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> 
> -- 
> Joel Roth
>   
> 
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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:20:26 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:

> Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:23:10 +
> > Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
> >   
> > > Steve Litt  writes:  
> > > > People aren't completely alone on run scripts: I can give them
> > > > any run scripts I'm using. Also, Runit run scripts are
> > > > *nothing* like sysvinit or OpenRC init scripts:

[snip exact definition of "init scripts"]
  
> > 
> > The actual files to which the S- and K-links point are the "init
> > scripts" to which I refer. So perhaps I used the wrong name for
> > them. Anyway, they're usually an unholy mess, usually over 40
> > lines, I think I remember seeing some go over 100.  
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's
> init.d script is 275 lines.
> 
> Joel

Hi Joel,

According to http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html#exim , Runit's
run script for Exim should be:

=
#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/local/sbin/exim -bdf -q30m
=

Because the preceding doesn't contain "exec 2>&1", I would guess that
Exim does its own logging and doesn't need Runit to provide a log for
the Exim daemon.

Beyond that, I don't have the knowledge to answer your question in a
responsive manner.

So instead, let me answer a question you didn't ask...

It's often easier, quicker, and better engineering to build a Runit run
script with knowledge of the app being used as a daemon, a little
engineering, and a little trial and error.

Here's pseudocode for the typical Runit run script that runs as root,
doesn't need GUI capabilities, and needs no environment variables:

=
#!/bin/sh
exec 2>&1
exec /path/to/daemon --run_in_forground other_arguments
=

The "exec 2>&1" is necessary to log both stdout and stderr, so
if there's no logging you can delete it.

The process to be run must run in the foreground (unless you do some
runit kludges), must be exec'ed, and there can be no assumptions about
paths or environment variables, so all files must have full paths.

You can pretty much deduce the daemon's actual command line syntax by
looking at the 275 (or whatever) line sysvinit or OpenRC init script.
Precede that command with the word "exec ", and if by default the
command backgrounds itself, include the command line option to make it
keep itself in the foreground, and you're pretty much set.

To test it, open a new level of bash, make yourself root, delete all
environment variables, delete all paths, and then run the runscript and
see whether it does the job. If not, find out what's missing and put it
in.

If the daemon needs some environment variables set, just do this for
each one:

# export mykey=myvalue

If you need it to run as a user other than root, follow this sequence,
as root:

# sv down mydaemon

Insert " /usr/bin/chpst -udesired_user_id " immediately after the
"exec" on the line that executes the daemon.

# cd /etc/sv/mydaemon
# chown -R desired_user_id.desired_user_id supervise

# sv up mydaemon

Note that if mydaemon reads and writes files, those files might be user
root such that the user desired_user_id cannot access them. In that
case, properly chown those files.

Note that your commands might be a little different, ESPECIALLY the
directory /etc/sv, which is a Voidism. Nevertheless, adding a new
daemon is incredibly easy.

Runit isn't for everyone. It doesn't have the 30 years of
institutionalized support like sysvinit, and it doesn't have a million
dollars a year in corporate salary support like systemd, so there will
be some amount of fairly low level user responsibility. Nevertheless,
my experience with Void Linux tells me that it's quite easy for a
package to provide the necessary run script, and in Void, about 90% of
such run scripts work perfectly, without my modification. And for the
other 10%, the fixes are obvious.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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[DNG] The Stone Truth: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:32:01 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> The real support to GNU/Linux and
> Debian has come from silent hackers.

The preceding sentence is the Stone Truth, and should be inscribed in
an image visible to all who use Linux for more than as a ticket to a
salary.

And before anyone comments, there's nothing wrong with having an
employer and garnering a weekly paycheck based on your Linux skills.
I'm just saying that those who use Linux at home, or in the business
they own, either in addition to or instead of using Linux for the
benefit of their employer, are much more likely to understand and live
by KatolaZ' sentence.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:46:55 +0100, Didier wrote in message 
<56a0ef5f.3050...@in2p3.fr>:

> Le 21/01/2016 13:08, Simon Hobson a écrit :
> > What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
> > (you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
> > The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that
> > ${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the
> > sole reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they
> > think there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that
> > most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the
> > idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive
> > types.
> 
>  I don't know for Rackspace. 

..learn ;o):
http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Rackspace+=phrase===0=all=0=search

> But MS has a specific log of trying to kill FOSS and specifically
> Linux, by *all means*, including technical locking and abuse of law.

..drumroll please, _I_ ;o) suggested we put "Microsoft Litigation" here:
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653
aaand on the left hand stortcut menu, where it has gained an extra 
"s" since "my post-Groklaw" litigation took off. 

..the _appearant_ importance of #550,000 over rounder figures like
#500,000, #600,000, #700,000, #800,000 etc in e.g.
https://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2015/08/index.en.html#newdpn 
also have me doubt the other "Once upon a time"-tales of "Microsoft 
support of Debian 8 only" and "only since March 2015" etc that I 
see here. 

..the US 5 M$ Microsoft reported spending on "combating computer
viruses" to the SEC for Q3-2003 and the US 106M$ they squirmed
away to their TSG etc proxy litigation in that same SEC filing for
that same Q3-2003 quarter, speaks volumes of their intentions, 
is why we said "Always, Always, Always Follow The Money." ;o) 
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831174259231

> I haven't seen any sign they're going to give up anytime soon on that
> fight, and I don't think here is such a sign: they earn a lot of
> profit and the little more they can gain with Linux on Azure is
> completely negligible in comparison with the strategic goal of
> killing Linux.
> 
>  Maybe MS haven't any legal means to forbid their employees to
> work for Linux during their free time. Otherwise, they have other
> reasons to tolerate it.

..such "tolerance" is done mostly "to know thy enemy", it's also
quite handy for luring in e.g. patent litigation poisons, "good" 
design ideas, "binary [in the chemical warfare sense] poisons" 
etc tools to scuttle e.g. GNU, Debian etc Linux, e.g. by telling 
e.g. our dear Lennart tall stories about "How the War on Terror 
Desperately Needs Secret National Security Backdoors in Linux" 
etc.  Etc.  Explains their zeal, etc.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 06:52:07PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Here's pseudocode for the typical Runit run script that runs as root,
> doesn't need GUI capabilities, and needs no environment variables:
> 
> =
> #!/bin/sh
> exec 2>&1
> exec /path/to/daemon --run_in_forground other_arguments
> =
> 

Steve, I don't know anything of runit, but you would agree anyway that
your pseudocode would be enough also for a sysvinit script of a daemon
that runs as root, does not need GUI capabilities, and needs no
external configuraion or environment variables.

But this is not the typical use case. Usually a typical service does
need external configuration, should be responsive to what happens
around them also *after* they are started, and has all sorts of
peculiarities and special cases. Not to forget the fact that you might
want it to collaborate with other parts of your system, e.g. PAM, just
to mention one of the usual suspects.

I agree that what we have today as sysvinit scripts is mostly the
result of unnecessary complications accumulated throughout the last 20
years, but unfortunately sometimes "complications" is the name of
those necessary things which allow more complex things to work
together in a meaningful way.

TAoUP [1] has an entire chapter dedicated to complexity, and Eric
S. Raymond explains very well (despite I don't like him) that
sometimes complexity is just unavoidable, because the cost of avoiding
it is not having something that is deemed necessary.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

[1] http://catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/ 

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Hobson  writes:
> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>>> - Some headers to tell utilities what runlevels the service should run
>>> at, and dependencies.
>> 
>> That's a LSB invention. It's a grotesque travesty as it uses 'magic
>> comments' to embed a declarative mini programming language in an init
>> script which is only ever used when modifying the runlevel
>> configuration. Comments are supposed to be used for relatively short,
>> free-style documentation embedded in code, not for interpretation by
>> programs.
>
> Presumably you have a suitable alternative, that's "backwards
> compatible", admin accessible, and makes sense to others?

Since nobody ever paid me to design one and I don't need something like
this for accomplishing anything I do get paid to accomplish, obviously
no. But I don't quite understand how arbitrary facts from my personal
history relate to 'language design'.

>>> - A ". include" to pull in some standard functions - makes sense, no
>>> point everyone building their own wheel.
>> 
>> Insofar these functions are generally useful, ie, not just carp like
>> "print a RED message", they ought to become proper programs which could
>> then be used in init scripts or elsewhere.
>
> Well since (I suspect) most of them don't have much (if any)
> applicability outside of init scripts, I'd say a library of common
> functions as an include makes sense.

"Not applicable outside of init scripts" (and this only conjectured)
neither means "should be implemented using the bourne-shell language"
nor "should reside in a file with shell language function definitions to
be sourced at runtime". Eg, the start-stop-daemon program is not a shell
function despite it's not supposed to be used outside of init scripts.

> Do you also object to libraries of common functions in other
> languages?

Every programming language I'm using has surely a great many 'libraries
of common functions' to whose use I object (usually by not using
them). But see above regarding 'random facts about me'. Also, the set of
executable commands can be regarded as 'library of common functions for
use in shell scripts'/

>>> - Check for, and if found, load a config file - eg
>>> /etc/default/${service}
>> 
>> TOCTOU race. Running
>> 
>> [ -r /etc/default/sendmail ] && . /etc/default/sendmail
>> 
>> doesn't mean /etc/default/sendmail will still be available when the
>> source command is executed. Since the shell is (for the sendmail init
>> script) running without -e at this point, the test can just be dropped.
>
> Strictly speaking, yes you are correct. However, unless there is
> something seriously wrong with the system then /etc/default/${program}
> isn't going to be appearing or disappearing at this time. However, as
> it is an optional file for many programs, it does (IMO) make sense to
> handle whether it is there or not, rather than "just fail" with an
> ugly message.

It's usually not optional for packages using one (it's supposed to
contain nothing but customizable parameters for an init script to make
it easier to customize these without having to deal with code merging
upon init script updates). It's supposed to be possible to delete these
files but usually, one would leave them in place an just comment out
whatever is not supposed to be made available.

If someone deleted a /etc/default file, a script trying to use that
printing a '/etc/default/xyz not found' before continuing seems
perfectly acceptable to me.

[...]

> As a thought, have you submitted a "fixed" Sendmail script to the
> Sendmail project ?

My opinion on what such a script should do and that of the Debian
sendmail maintainer are "not compatible" in this regard. If I considered
this worth the effort, I'd replace the script for systems I control,
however, I don't mind the code implementing the features he considers
sensible[*]. But I do mind people running around crying "sysvinit is the
evil incarnate!" and then point at a few hundreds of lines of shell
script code someone developed completely indepdendently of the init
system because he considered that a good thing.

[*] /etc/mail/sendmail.conf has a HANDS_OFF variable which exists
   because I complained about the package overwriting my sendmail
   configuration and that's good enough for me
   
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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:03:18 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:


>  I installed roxterm and rox-filer. Both are just nice behaving. 
> roxterm doesn't seem to differ in apearence, configurability or 
> behaviour, from xfce4-terminal or gnome-terminal.

I too have used rox-filer (but not yet rox-session), and found it the
kind of thing that you could learn to like. I learned of its existence
thanks to Simon's roxterm recommendation, and I'm using rox-filer every
once in a while, and starting to like it more.

> 
>  rox-filer is nice looking, but it needs some configuration. Here 
> are the two waek points I noticed
> 
>  - there is absolutely no application defined by default for any 
> file type; you must define them all - this is a miss in the packaging.

With Void Linux some of the filetypes are predefined, but a lot aren't.

>  - there isn't a menu of possible applications for a given file 
> type. I like to be able to open an image with either a simple viewer
> or with Gimp to edit it.

Those menus are a double-edged sword. You maneuver thru the whole
thing, don't find the executable you really want, and then have to
furthergui to install an unlisted app.

> 
>  And here are some features I like:
> 
>  - If you left-click with the shift key pressed, you always open
> the file with the application you have defined for raw text. This
> allows to edit an html file instead of browsing it.

Nice! Thanks for that tip!

> 
>  - files are open on single click (double click in Thunar),
> though this is a personal preference.

I wouldn't want that for Thunar, but somehow, in rox I like it :-)

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 04:57:28PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 21/01/2016 12:33, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

> >So I tried installing it, and found that it recommended zeroinstall-injector.
> >Anyone know what this is?  It seems to be a "platform-independent
> >package manager".  What does this mean in relation to rox-filer.  And
> >how does it relate to apt and aptitude.
> >
> >Might it alleviate some of the above complaints?
> >
> I always use apt-get install --no-install-recommends, or
> "default upgrade" in Synaptic. And I don't look at the recommended
> packages :-)

I use aptitude, and of course I use it in the default mode that does 
not automatically install recommendations, in keeping with 
Devuan-style minimalism.  But it doesn't wtop me from wondering why 
other packages are recommended, and whether I might find them useful.

Back in the Debian days, when I installed asciidoc I ended up with 
all of docbook and all of Tex's many packages, which I had no use for, 
since all I needed was to generate HTML  (Why asciidooc? because I 
was working on someone else's project).  I'm pleased wth the Devuan 
defaults.
   
> 
> This "recommends" feature has become a kind of bin for packages
> the maintainers would like desperately to "require" for obscure
> reasons, but they fail to find a valid one.
> 
> Didier

the reasons are often obscure only because the package descriptions 
are so telegraphic.  Ideally the package manager should be 
organised to let the developer to explain why each of those packages 
had been recommended so that the user can decide.

In this case I'm getting clue.  Zero-install turns out to be a package 
manager, that apparently works compatibly on Linux, Windows, OS X, 
Unix, and in case that isn't enough, also as source code.

Rox is a desktop.  The Rox terminal (recommeded in this thread 
originally) and the Rox file manager are components of Rox, but as we 
see they can easily be used independently.

I suspect that zeroinstall is the native, cross-platform package 
installer that Rox uses, and quite possibly that a lot of the 
file-type handlers for the rox file manager are available as 
zero-install packages.  Stll, I'd like to *know* that instead  of just 
suspecting it.

Zeroinstall can apparently allow users to install packages without 
requiring them to have administrative privileges, can ensure that 
when the same version of the same package is installed by different 
users, only one copy occupies disk space, keep track of which 
users belong with which packages (so they don't get their stuff mixed 
up) and install multiple different versions of one package in case 
users have different constraints because of the curse of 
compatibility.

Annd, to my surprise, the current zeroinstall is written in OCaml, a 
language that's a pretty good tool for writing reliable software.  The 
previous version was apparently written in python.

I'm both surprised and pleased to see OCaml to escape from the 
clutches of logicians and theorem provers into the wider world of 
system programming.  I've always thought that about 90 or more 
percent of the C code in the world could better be written in 
OCaml.  Perhaps there's now someone else that agrees with me.

-- hendrik
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[DNG] desktop-base package review

[aitor_czr]

Hi Daniel,

On 01/21/2016 11:11 PM, Daniel Reurich  wrote:

Hi,

I've been hacking on the desktop-base package to add a bunch of features
like monitor size & aspect ratio detection to improve our chances of
selecting the best artwork, adding support for grub2 themes and using an
images manifest so the artwork can be updated without having to hack on
all of the maintainer scripts.  There is now very little resemblance to
debian desktop-base package.

I'd like some other eyes to look over my code and point out any
improvements/flaw.

I haven't tested the code for setting the GRUB_THEME variable in
/etc/default/grub (in debian/postinst) and I think it's rather crude to
do it that way.

I still have to add functionality to debian/postrm to remove the
GRUB_THEME variable (with tests to ensure it's untouched).

The project is located here:
https://git.devuan.org/packages-base/desktop-base/branches

Please fork and make merge requests with any proposed changes.

Cheers,
Daniel.


I agree to add the artwork carried out by Hellekin to desktop-base 
package. It would be also interesting to configure the '/etc/skel' 
folder (skeleton). I would therefore like to suggest some ideas, but 
lately i don't have much free time. Today i've been working on appling a 
multithread proccess in such a way that "/usr/lib/netman/bin/backend 8" 
is called on a separate thread so as to avoid blocking Gtkmm's main loop 
(i.e., the spinner). I do not surrender :)


  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Wim]

Hi List,


... Follow the money...

Maybe this is related too?

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/39546.html

The Linux Foundation quietly dropped community representation. No more
voting rights for simple members.

Looks like a coup to me.

And that begs the question: "Who is Karen Sandler?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Sandler

Both major law firms she worked for in the past, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher
and Clifford Chance, have multiple ties to Microsoft. In itself not
remarkable, perhaps, as both have most of the fortune 500 as clients.

One example: Project Tomorrow, see
http://www.tomorrow.org/docs/Gibson-Dunn-laptopdonationrelease.DOC
What's in a name?

Makes me think about a Hillary Clinton remark to someone stating that talks
between the tech industry and US govt about encryption backdoors weren't
exactly successful: "That's not what I've heard"...

Slip of the tongue?

What do you think?

Cheers,


Wim

2016-01-22 0:34 GMT+01:00 Arnt Karlsen :

> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:46:55 +0100, Didier wrote in message
> <56a0ef5f.3050...@in2p3.fr>:
>
> > Le 21/01/2016 13:08, Simon Hobson a écrit :
> > > What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
> > > (you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
> > > The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that
> > > ${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the
> > > sole reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they
> > > think there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that
> > > most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the
> > > idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive
> > > types.
> >
> >  I don't know for Rackspace.
>
> ..learn ;o):
>
> http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Rackspace+=phrase===0=all=0=search
>
> > But MS has a specific log of trying to kill FOSS and specifically
> > Linux, by *all means*, including technical locking and abuse of law.
>
> ..drumroll please, _I_ ;o) suggested we put "Microsoft Litigation" here:
> http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653
> aaand on the left hand stortcut menu, where it has gained an extra
> "s" since "my post-Groklaw" litigation took off.
>
> ..the _appearant_ importance of #550,000 over rounder figures like
> #500,000, #600,000, #700,000, #800,000 etc in e.g.
> https://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2015/08/index.en.html#newdpn
> also have me doubt the other "Once upon a time"-tales of "Microsoft
> support of Debian 8 only" and "only since March 2015" etc that I
> see here.
>
> ..the US 5 M$ Microsoft reported spending on "combating computer
> viruses" to the SEC for Q3-2003 and the US 106M$ they squirmed
> away to their TSG etc proxy litigation in that same SEC filing for
> that same Q3-2003 quarter, speaks volumes of their intentions,
> is why we said "Always, Always, Always Follow The Money." ;o)
> http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831174259231
>
> > I haven't seen any sign they're going to give up anytime soon on that
> > fight, and I don't think here is such a sign: they earn a lot of
> > profit and the little more they can gain with Linux on Azure is
> > completely negligible in comparison with the strategic goal of
> > killing Linux.
> >
> >  Maybe MS haven't any legal means to forbid their employees to
> > work for Linux during their free time. Otherwise, they have other
> > reasons to tolerate it.
>
> ..such "tolerance" is done mostly "to know thy enemy", it's also
> quite handy for luring in e.g. patent litigation poisons, "good"
> design ideas, "binary [in the chemical warfare sense] poisons"
> etc tools to scuttle e.g. GNU, Debian etc Linux, e.g. by telling
> e.g. our dear Lennart tall stories about "How the War on Terror
> Desperately Needs Secret National Security Backdoors in Linux"
> etc.  Etc.  Explains their zeal, etc.
>
>
> --
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>   Scenarios always come in sets of three:
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:08:19 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:

> reading this list is like being at an evangelical meeting of some
> hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to a large number of
> people.

Both clauses of the preceding partial sentence are absolutely true. And
it goes without saying that I am a minor priest in this cult.

Here's the thing though: If you say in public that you don't use
systemd, that's offputting to 1/3 of the Linux population. A very vocal
and judgmental 1/3. If you actively participate in any plan to provide
an alternative to systemd, you've now offput 2/3 of the Linux
population, and are going to get your name constantly dragged through
the mud.

So the Devuan project has already offput 2/3 of the Linux population.
And although I cannot provide any backup for this opinion, it's my
opinion that most fans of corporate Linux are in the 2/3 we already
offput, and very few real fans of corporate Linux remain in the 1/3 not
yet offput.

So there are few left in our membership and prospective membership who
would be offput by anti-Microsoft assertions.

Meanwhile, the fact that we're Linux at all skews us to have long ago
blown off the Microsoft fans, and makes it likely that a sizeable
portion of us have very anti-Microsoft opinions, especially those who
have been in Linux long enough to remember the Halloween Documents,
Microsoft's Halloween Code, Microsoft execs Mundie and Allchin's whines
to congress to make GPL illegal, and Microsoft's generous license fees
paid to Linux patent troll SCO, which enabled SCO to randomly sue Linux
users for several more years.

Bottom line, we long ago blew off most of those who would have found
our, or at least my, way of phrasing things offputting.

We all hope there will come a time when Devuan becomes a plurality
force in the world of Linux. Such an eventuality is no less probable
than was Linux's takeover of everything but the desktop, if that
probability were predicted in the 1990's. And if you look at Linux
promotion in the 1990's, it was very cultish within, and very
offputting to fans of corporate computing or even those who believed
technology choice to be a meritocracy.

And when Devuan becomes such a plurality, having won the war for the
hearts and minds of those having strong believes concerning software
choice and modularity, we'll tone down our rhetoric to become more
inclusive of meritocracy believers and all but the most hard-core
corporatists. But it's too early for that now: Right now our job is to
inspire strong beliefs leading to strong development, testing,
documentation and advocacy, and an absolute and constitutional
rejection of systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Simon Wise]

On 22/01/16 07:41, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 04:57:28PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 21/01/2016 12:33, Hendrik Boom a écrit :



I suspect that zeroinstall is the native, cross-platform package
installer that Rox uses, and quite possibly that a lot of the
file-type handlers for the rox file manager are available as
zero-install packages.  Stll, I'd like to *know* that instead  of just
suspecting it.

Zeroinstall can apparently allow users to install packages without
requiring them to have administrative privileges, can ensure that
when the same version of the same package is installed by different
users, only one copy occupies disk space, keep track of which
users belong with which packages (so they don't get their stuff mixed
up) and install multiple different versions of one package in case
users have different constraints because of the curse of
compatibility.

Annd, to my surprise, the current zeroinstall is written in OCaml, a
language that's a pretty good tool for writing reliable software.  The
previous version was apparently written in python.


Rox as an environment seems little maintained and quite old, the website says it 
is "RISC OS for X". They had an application-as-folder system and Rox-filer would 
still deal with these if you used them, they called this system zeroinstall 
since it just required copying the self-contained application folder. Probably 
has the same ultimate ancestry as Apple's application folder system.



Simon

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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Simon Wise]

On 21/01/16 21:03, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 21/01/2016 05:57, Simon Wise a écrit :

On 19/01/16 04:59, Steve Litt wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
Simon Wise wrote:


But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects
to the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
functionality). I dropped it in favour of roxterminal which is very
similar, based on the same engine I believe, but it does the cut
buffer and clipboard etc directly, as it should.


Hi Simon,

Thanks to your recommendation, I just started using roxterm. What a
breath of fresh air! Tabbed. Multiple profiles mean all sorts of
different terminals for different needs. No unholy union to a "desktop
environment" other than the rox filemanager system.


they are independent, I think ... though perhaps some D might be a
bit cleaner between them??? they both just interact with X and allow
extensive file-based configuration if you want to use it. Last time I
tried both worked fine just in X alone, no other management.



I need several different types of terminal emulators for several
different types of jobs. From now on I'm using roxterm instead of
xfce4-terminal for all new construction.


"profiles" can easily be invoked on CL if you want distinctive
appearance to indicate different tasks.


Simon


I installed roxterm and rox-filer. Both are just nice behaving. roxterm doesn't
seem to differ in apearence, configurability or behaviour, from xfce4-terminal
or gnome-terminal.


the main reason I use it instead is that xfce-terminal depends on a desktop 
session, dbus etc to function properly while roxterm does not.


The  second advantage for me (since I use colours to indicate some tasks) is the 
profile/theme configuration is easier to deal with and file based.




rox-filer is nice looking, but it needs some configuration. Here are the two
waek points I noticed

- there is absolutely no application defined by default for any file type; you
must define them all - this is a miss in the packaging.


Here it has  defaults  I think via the MIME system?? but maybe this depends 
on something else being installed? There certainly should be defaults.



- there isn't a menu of possible applications for a given file type. I like to
be able to open an image with either a simple viewer or with Gimp to edit it.


Very easy to add any that you wish, there is a folder of links for each file 
type, and another that fills the 'send to..' menu for every file type.


"Customise Menu.." takes you there, and gives a brief explanation.



And here are some features I like:

- If you left-click with the shift key pressed, you always open the file with
the application you have defined for raw text. This allows to edit an html file
instead of browsing it.

- files are open on single click (double click in Thunar), though this is a
personal preference.


configurable in 'Options'



Didier


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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Simon Wise]

On 22/01/16 02:57, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 21/01/2016 12:33, Hendrik Boom a écrit :



Might it alleviate some of the above complaints?


I always use apt-get install --no-install-recommends, or "default upgrade" in
Synaptic. And I don't look at the recommended packages :-)

This "recommends" feature has become a kind of bin for packages the maintainers
would like desperately to "require" for obscure reasons, but they fail to find a
valid one.


But some more polite packages do use it properly ... for things that are not 
actually dependencies, but that you probably want, and may well miss, if you use 
the package in an average kind of way. It is worth a quick look during the 
apt-get process.


Simon

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 14:41:40 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:

> dev1fanboy  wrote:
> 
> > So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we
> > voice our opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in
> > the free software community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to
> > debian because otherwise we're elitists.
> 
> That's not what I said - and if it reads that way then I failed
> articulate my opinion well (wouldn't be the first time).
> 
> This is just the latest. There have been a few subjects that have
> come up where the undertone from some participants has been fairly
> solidly along the lines of "if it comes from X then it has to be bad"
> as though it's not possible for X to do anything other than totally
> bad, and do it for malicious reasons. When you get into that state of
> mind, then reasoned discussion is suppressed, and that doesn't
> promote a friendly atmosphere.

In the preceding paragraph, Simon has almost exactly described my
writings on this list, and on Debian-user earlier. It's my personal
belief that if it comes from Redhat, and perhaps other entities such
as FreeDesktop, it's almost certain to be both bad and malicious. I
can't prove this, because I've never been in a top level strategy
meeting for either Redhat or Freedesktop. I doubt anyone on this list
can prove my belief false, because they haven't been in every single
high level strategy meeting plus all back channel communications for
these entities.

What I *can* do is make a very plausible showing for Red Hat's motive,
means and opportunity to damage Linux for their own benefit. Motive,
means and opportunity don't prove guilt, but they go a long way to show
likelihood. And they go a long way in legitimizing the accusation, and
elevating the accuser from irrational conspiracy theorist to a
legitimate questioner of truth. Which to me inspires reasoned
discussion rather than suppressing it.

Let's briefly discuss "reasoned discussion". It's my belief that
"reasoned discussion" means different things in different venues. On
the Devuan list, reasoned discussion requires not only technology, but
also examination of motivation. The reason is simple: If we didn't
consider motivation, we'd always be aiming to be able to depoetterize
*today's* Linux, we'd always be chasing the tail of the latest
systemd architectural conquest, and we'd never output a usable product.

Once we consider motivation, we're better able to guess where Linux
will be in six months, and aim for that spot rather than today's spot.
We're much more likely to hit the target when we consider motivation.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:52:39 +1100
Simon Wise  wrote:

> On 22/01/16 02:57, Didier Kryn wrote:

> > This "recommends" feature has become a kind of bin for packages the
> > maintainers would like desperately to "require" for obscure
> > reasons, but they fail to find a valid one.  
> 
> But some more polite packages do use it properly ... for things that
> are not actually dependencies, but that you probably want, and may
> well miss, if you use the package in an average kind of way. It is
> worth a quick look during the apt-get process.

I think it depends on the user. The user who would most likely use
Ubuntu, for instance, has little knowledge of package management and
would probably prefer every possible dependency package for every
possible feature be installed.

But for Devuan, and pre 2014 Debian, I'd imagine the average user
would rather the package manager be more conservative in installing
dependencies.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:47:59 +1100
Simon Wise  wrote:


> The  second advantage for me (since I use colours to indicate some
> tasks) is the profile/theme configuration is easier to deal with and
> file based.

Yes! After the last time I did an rm -rf on my laptop, only to discover
it was in an ssh session to my main computer where I didn't want to
delete anything, I always use different color terminals for ssh
sessions and for root sessions. Roxterm's file based "profiles" make it
trivial to have as many of those as you want. Priceless!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit

[Joel Roth]

Steve Litt wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:20:26 -1000
> Joel Roth  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Steve,
> > 
> > How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's
> > init.d script is 275 lines.
> > 
> > Joel
> 
> Hi Joel,
> 
> According to http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html#exim , Runit's
> run script for Exim should be:
> 
> =
> #!/bin/sh
> exec /usr/local/sbin/exim -bdf -q30m
> =
 
> Because the preceding doesn't contain "exec 2>&1", I would guess that
> Exim does its own logging and doesn't need Runit to provide a log for
> the Exim daemon.
> 
Thanks. Yes I eventually stumbled on this. And as you say,
it is possible to drill down through the init script to 
get just a few essential lines and environment settings.

I guess the biggest problem is that I have 78 working init
scripts, so it would be a gradual process to switch over to
runit. I guess if I can start runit under sysvinit, I could
move services one by one.

Like you, I don't expect to run heavy-weight GUI
environment, so I think a lot of fat could be cut away. Just
that it's also running code ;-)

I hope I can find time to fiddle with this.


Joel
 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> 
> 
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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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