Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/03/2016 11:23 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
This stop-modify-restart is a bit coarse-grained and it's also 
possible to do this manually without 'interface downtime' but there's 
no general interface for that: The sequence of commands will depend on 
both the running configuration and the desired configuration and has 
to be worked out beforehand and then executed. Considering that the 
modified interfaces file can be created before causing any side 
effects and then be swapped atomically via mv in between the down and 
the up, 'play nice with the system' is IMHO a better idea. Changing 
the stored configuration while the interface is up bound to cause 
trouble unless care is taken to ensure that this can be interrupted at 
any point (imagine a sudden power outage) with the system still 
remaining in or capable of returning to an operational state.


Yes, I 100% agree. Thank you for the detailed info.

I am trying to do it like that (using the interfaces file). However, 
cdist has some limitations in it's default usage pattern regarding 
"down-mod-up". Of course since it's connecting over the network, I need 
to be careful what NICs go down and how they are reconfigured.


I think I've hit on something. Since I am adding containers (LXC) and 
virtual network to the box, I think I will add an tap and bridge 
interface to an /etc/network/interface.d/ file. If I use something like:


auto br0
iface br0 inet static
pre-up ip tuntap add dev tap0 mode tap
pre-up ip link set tap0 up
post-down ip link set tap0 down
post-down ip tuntap del dev tap0 mode tap
bridge_ports tap0
address 10.1.1.1
netmask 255.255.255.0
broadcast 10.1.1.255

And make sure there is the source /etc/network/interface.d/* line in the 
interfaces file. Then route with iptables between the a physical NIC 
(eth0 for example) and the virtual NIC (tap0) and have all the 
containers connected to br0.


Are there any glaring problems with this setup?

Thanks everyone again for all the advice and explanations.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Top100 on DistroWatch

[dev1fanboy]

very nice, didn't think they'd add it until the stable release

Cheers,

chillfan

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 12:51 PM, hellekin  wrote:
> Today Devuan is number #91 on DistroWatch.com!  We made it to the Top
> 100 is the first 3 days of presence on DW.  Sweet!
> 
> http://distrowatch.com/devuan
> 
> ==
> hk
> 
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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[Chandler Wise]

Well if you want to install the init yourself (and not through apt which is
what I assume you mean) I'd suggest trying out the instructions here:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm#getting_epoch_running
first. It's definitely an easy thing to follow. After that I'd take a look
at other online resources as well.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan (f)art

[Dan Purgert]

hellekin wrote:
> [snip]
> With N ~ U, rounder E, more detached (R) (attached)

And this is now my MOTD :)

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|O|O|O| 


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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 10:36:25PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 01:31:59PM -0400, Dan Purgert wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > I admit I am just now starting down the rabbit hole of "understanding
> > init systems" ... so this may be a dumb question.
> > 
> > Is it possible during setup to choose the init system on the fly?  I
> > mean, we can choose Cinnamon / Mate / xfce / etc for the DE as it is (or
> > all of them - although I expect having multiple competing init binaries
> > is bad).
> > 
> > Or are the various init systems "too different" from one another to
> > allow this?
> 
> The different init system currently available on the market are really
> "too different" to each other, but this does not mean that we
> shouldn't try to find a way of providing the user with the possibility
> of choosing which init system to use at config time, and possibly to
> swap init systems on demand. This will probably require a lot of work,
> but IMHO this is the niche where Devuan has something new to say, and
> to show. 

How many of these init systems *have* to run as pid 1?  How many are 
perfectly happy handling a subset of services withoug being pod 1?  I 
think we should focus on init systems that can coexist, being started 
by a specific one of them, perhaps a really trivial, reliable one.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Init compatibility (was: SoylentNews discussion)

[Florian Zieboll]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 22:53:58 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> You see, in less then 10 emails there are 10 different opinions about
> which TheBest init system to adopt in a future Devuan :)
> 
> The only way to avoid useless flames on the topic, which will surely
> cause friction, and discomfort, and pain, and resentment, is to jump
> over the problem at once and work all together to allow averyone to
> use the init of his/her choice with Devuan.
> 
> This will surely entail a massive amount of extra work, but will set
> Devuan neatly apart from all the other distributions, and allow it to
> considerably widen its potential user base. Maybe Devuan will really
> be albe to show what "Universal operating system" should mean
> nowadays... ;)


My experience with init systems is mostly limited sysV init (well,
also busybox and system d). That said, I wonder, what information any
arbitrary init system would need, that can not be delivered e.g. in a
simple XML file, packaged with the daemon.

Seriously, what else besides dependencies on other daemons that have to
be running and some testing for the existence of certain (everything is)
files would be necessary to pass to a parser script, which could be
packaged with the respective init system? 

Somewhat stunned,

Florian
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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 06:17:34PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> In my opinion, based on the "stuff" needed for Epoch, Runit and s6, I'm
> pretty sure you could have packages for each.
> 
> The tricky part is that /sbin/init will need to be one or the other.
> Other than that, all three (and I assume sysvinit too) could coexist on
> a disk, and which you use is simply copying, let's say, init.epoch to
> init. My research during the Manjaro Experiments tells me that a mere
> symlink from init.epoch to init fails: I don't know why.
> 

In principle, this could be manage through update-alternatives, as
already pointed out by several others here, in a previous thread. But
maybe these discussions are pointless until after Devuan Jessie stable
is out...

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 01:31:59PM -0400, Dan Purgert wrote:

[cut]

> I admit I am just now starting down the rabbit hole of "understanding
> init systems" ... so this may be a dumb question.
> 
> Is it possible during setup to choose the init system on the fly?  I
> mean, we can choose Cinnamon / Mate / xfce / etc for the DE as it is (or
> all of them - although I expect having multiple competing init binaries
> is bad).
> 
> Or are the various init systems "too different" from one another to
> allow this?

The different init system currently available on the market are really
"too different" to each other, but this does not mean that we
shouldn't try to find a way of providing the user with the possibility
of choosing which init system to use at config time, and possibly to
swap init systems on demand. This will probably require a lot of work,
but IMHO this is the niche where Devuan has something new to say, and
to show. 

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[Joel Roth]

Steve Litt wrote:
>   Katolaz
> > IMHO, if and when we would like to make a change regarding init
> > systems, that change should not be to replace sysvinit with an init
> > system of *our* choice, but probably towards allowing users to use the
> > non-invasive init of *their* choice.
> 
> Yes. The user should have an easy choice of inits. What I meant was
> that SOME init must be default, and if that default init is ever not
> sysvinit, it should be something very different from sysvinit.

e.g. something without the complex run levels and symlink farms
of sysvinit.
 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Devuan (f)art

[hellekin]

On 06/03/2016 05:56 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> 
> '~._
> ""+=+_ )(@  @)@@   @@  @@.@@@. 
>   '"@+.@'''  @@@@ @@   @@ @++@  @?'''\@
>  @@@+.@@  @@  @@   @@@@  @@@@@@
>   )@@@)@@@@   @@   @@   @@@@   @@@@
> +@@@)'  @@  @@@@   @@  @@  @@  @@@@
>  (@@@) @...  @++@ '+. .+' @@@@ @@@@
>   (@@@))  @@"@"  (@  @)@@@@
>))   (R) 
> (@)   
> 
>

With N ~ U, rounder E, more detached (R) (attached)

-- 
 _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
'~._
""+=+_ .@@@)(@  @)@@   @@  @@,@. 
  '"@+.@/''  @@@@ @@   @@ @++@ .+' '+.
 @@@+.@@  @@  @@   @@@@  @@@@   @@
  )@@@)@@@@   @@   @@   @@@@   @@   @@
+@@@)'  @@  @@@@   @@  @@  @@  @@   @@
 (@@@) @\..  @++@ '+. .+' @@@@ @@   @@
  (@@@)`@@@)  @@"@"  (@  @)@@   @@
   )) 
(@) (R)

1...10203040506070

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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

[cut]

>non-invasive init of*their*  choice.
Yes. The user should have an easy choice of inits. What I meant was
that SOME init must be default, and if that default init is ever not
sysvinit, it should be something very different from sysvinit.

SteveT
If that default init is ever not sysvinit, it should be something much 
better than sysvinit. Why would you change if it is not better (that is 
my main problem with systemd it is not better but worse).



Grtz.

Nick
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Re: [DNG] Devuan (f)art

[Dan Purgert]

KatolaZ wrote:
> Dear Devuaners,
> 
> I wanted to share a first attempt to get an ASCII-art-like logo for
> Devuan that I made yesterday night. I am not an expert of ASCII-art,
> so don't expect it to be perfect or to look good. I started from the
> official svg I found on the website, and I wanted something that could
> be put in /etc/issue (10 rows x 80 cols max), so the proportions might
> be not *exactly* the same a those of the original one, but I am sure
> that the ascii-wizards in this ML can use it as a preliminary draft to
> work on.
> 
> HH
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
>  [snip]

Nice!

Made a few tweaks to the 'DE', and tightened up the character spacing
just to see what it'd look like.  Apologies in advance if things came
out wonky - default in the editor is wrap at 72 characters)


'~._
""+=+_ )(@  @)@@   @@  @@.@@@. 
  '"@+.@'''  @@@@ @@   @@ @++@  @?'''\@
 @@@+.@@  @@  @@   @@@@  @@@@@@
  )@@@)@@@@   @@   @@   @@@@   @@@@
+@@@)'  @@  @@@@   @@  @@  @@  @@@@
 (@@@) @...  @++@ '+. .+' @@@@ @@@@
  (@@@))  @@"@"  (@  @)@@@@
   ))   (R) 
(@)   

 
-- 
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Github: https://github.com/dpurgert


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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[Dan Purgert]

KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 05:57:27PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> 
> IMHO, if and when we would like to make a change regarding init
> systems, that change should not be to replace sysvinit with an init
> system of *our* choice, but probably towards allowing users to use the
> non-invasive init of *their* choice.
> 
> My2Cents
> 
I admit I am just now starting down the rabbit hole of "understanding
init systems" ... so this may be a dumb question.

Is it possible during setup to choose the init system on the fly?  I
mean, we can choose Cinnamon / Mate / xfce / etc for the DE as it is (or
all of them - although I expect having multiple competing init binaries
is bad).

Or are the various init systems "too different" from one another to
allow this?

-- 
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Github: https://github.com/dpurgert


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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 06:55:30 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 05:57:27PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > > 
> > > however this is all abstract speculation now. I'm not even sure
> > > we'll make such a big change in testing. most people and
> > > organizations switching to Devuan today (me included) are in need
> > > of a system that does not change their workflow arbitrarily.  
> > 
> > Yes. I would recommend against *any* init change in the foreseeable
> > future. All I'm saying is that *if and when* we change, the change
> > should be to something very different from sysvinit. Something like
> > Epoch, Runit, or s6.
> >   
> 
> IMHO, if and when we would like to make a change regarding init
> systems, that change should not be to replace sysvinit with an init
> system of *our* choice, but probably towards allowing users to use the
> non-invasive init of *their* choice.

Yes. The user should have an easy choice of inits. What I meant was
that SOME init must be default, and if that default init is ever not
sysvinit, it should be something very different from sysvinit.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 05:14:28PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 03/06/2016 12:52, Simon Walter a écrit :
> >OK. I see. So it's only with restart. Got it. By non-static is that only
> >dhcp or are there other non-static setups? I would imagine a dhcp setup
> >would restart fine, but maybe I am such a simple user.
> 
> You can still stop and then start...

Which is exactly what restart does, and the same caveats apply.

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Re: [DNG] Converting audio to AAC using Soundconverter

[Joel Roth]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 10:33:12AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 08:01:15PM +0800, Robert Storey wrote:
> > Hi Adam, thanks for bringing Opus to my (our) attention. I looked it up and
> > it does sound enticing
> > 
> > However, looking at https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ there doesn't seem to be
> > anything about converting files to Opus.
> 
> I've never used ffmpeg, but that page does talk about opus support.  And
> indeed, in Debian I see:
>   ffmpeg Depends: libavcodec57
>   libavcodec57 Depends: libopus0
> so it's compiled in.  And as ffmpeg boasts support for "the most obscure
> ancient formats up to the cutting edge", I guess it has an interface to
> select such formats... just don't ask me how.

With my eyes closed:

ffmpeg -i somesong.mp3 somesong.ops # assuming .ops is the opus extension
 
> I've always used opusenc directly.
> 
-- 
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[DNG] A PID 1 that only calls a startup script/program.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Before I joined Devuan I did a sysvinit hack that isolated it to a
dedicated directory under "/". This was a naive attempt by me to use
sysvinit in case Debian decided to intentionally break sysvinit's
installation. Curiously, after using medit to edit /sbin/init's C code
to use the new directory (/dgli), my system booted and was useable.

I am writing here NOT to discuss whether this hack has its place in
Devuan, but because I have the temptation to hack /sbin/init to call a
script/executable when it starts. In the event no such
script/executable exists, I would let /sbin/init start a shell as a
normal unprivileged user.

Edward
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Didier Kryn]

Le 03/06/2016 12:52, Simon Walter a écrit :

OK. I see. So it's only with restart. Got it. By non-static is that only
dhcp or are there other non-static setups? I would imagine a dhcp setup
would restart fine, but maybe I am such a simple user.


You can still stop and then start...

Didier

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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rainer Weikusat  writes:
> Simon Walter  writes:
>> I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.
>>
>> So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
>> and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
>> warning that it is deprecated. I understand why. So I issue:
>> # ip address flush dev xxx && ip link set xxx down
>>
>> Which seems to work fine. However, when I try to bring the device back
>> up with the new config with "ifup xxx"
>> It fails. If I first issue a "ifdown xxx" then it works.
>
> ifupdown uses a state file (/etc/network/run/ifstate) to record which
> interfaces are up and ifup refuses to activate an interface recorded as
> active. You could remove the relevant interface entries manually,
> however, a more sensible course of action is
>
> 1. ifown 
> 2. modify interfaces definition
> 3. ifup 

Additional explanation for that: ifupdown supports triggering additional
actions upon interface up/ down either by putting scripts into
/etc/network/if*.d directories or adding commands to the
/etc/network/interfaces stanzas. This means an interface can only be
brought down cleanly using the same configuration used to bring it up
(unless the corresponding actions are initiated manually as needed). It
can then be reconfigured as desired, possibly including the changing
scripts/ commands and brought up again.

This stop-modify-restart is a bit coarse-grained and it's also possible
to do this manually without 'interface downtime' but there's no general
interface for that: The sequence of commands will depend on both the
running configuration and the desired configuration and has to be worked
out beforehand and then executed. Considering that the modified
interfaces file can be created before causing any side effects and then
be swapped atomically via mv in between the down and the up, 'play nice
with the system' is IMHO a better idea.

Changing the stored configuration while the interface is up bound to
cause trouble unless care is taken to ensure that this can be
interrupted at any point (imagine a sudden power outage) with the system
still remaining in or capable of returning to an operational state.
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Walter  writes:
> I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.
>
> So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
> and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
> warning that it is deprecated. I understand why. So I issue:
> # ip address flush dev xxx && ip link set xxx down
>
> Which seems to work fine. However, when I try to bring the device back
> up with the new config with "ifup xxx"
> It fails. If I first issue a "ifdown xxx" then it works.

ifupdown uses a state file (/etc/network/run/ifstate) to record which
interfaces are up and ifup refuses to activate an interface recorded as
active. You could remove the relevant interface entries manually,
however, a more sensible course of action is

1. ifown 
2. modify interfaces definition
3. ifup 

In case this would affect an interface used to access the machine, a
command sequence like

ifdown ; mv interfaces.new interfaces; ifup 

can be used. A typo in this command is obviously going have Bad
Effects[tm].

> So I have couple questions for those who know about the situation in De*an:
>
> 1. Is there a plan to move away from ipconfig?

ipconfig is a Windows command. ifconfig is part of the net tools
package, it has been technically obsolete since 1998 and unmaintained
since 2005. I don't believe any plans to stop using it just because of
this.
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 07:52:51PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
> On 06/03/2016 04:43 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 08:56:50AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
> >> I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.
> >>
> >> So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
> >> and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
> >> warning that it is deprecated.
> > 
> > /etc/init.d/networking is not deprecated, only calling it with the argument
> > "restart" (="force-reload") is.  There's no real way to do that reliably in
> > any non-static setup.
> 
> OK. I see. So it's only with restart. Got it. By non-static is that only
> dhcp or are there other non-static setups? I would imagine a dhcp setup
> would restart fine, but maybe I am such a simple user.

I meant "non-static" as in "the interfaces themselves come and go".  That
is, hotplug, complex bridges, virtual networks, etc.  Mere dhcp works fine.

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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/03/2016 04:43 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 08:56:50AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
>> I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.
>>
>> So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
>> and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
>> warning that it is deprecated.
> 
> /etc/init.d/networking is not deprecated, only calling it with the argument
> "restart" (="force-reload") is.  There's no real way to do that reliably in
> any non-static setup.

OK. I see. So it's only with restart. Got it. By non-static is that only
dhcp or are there other non-static setups? I would imagine a dhcp setup
would restart fine, but maybe I am such a simple user.

> ifupdown keeps its state in /run/network/ifstate, if you bring devices up or
> down using low-level tools then ifupdown may get confused.  Use --force to
> override the saved state.

Nice.

>> 2. Is there a plan to write a /etc/init.d/networking script that works
>> properly?
> 
> What do you mean by "properly"?  What's your problem with it?

Well, considering I misinterpreted the part where only "restart" was
deprecated, I suppose if restarting is not possible, then fine.

>> 4. For my project: How does one bring up and down interfaces with ip in
>> coordination with /etc/network/interfaces? Or shall I use ifup?
> 
> Don't try to mix the two -- or rather, you may use ip safely for
> configuration (like, changing addresses, routes, etc) but not bringing an
> interface up or down.  If ifupdown doesn't fit your needs you can simply
> omit that interface in /etc/network/interfaces or let it bring it up during
> boot and never touch it again.  Unlike, say, network-manager, ifupdown will
> not mess with the interface unless either you or udev explicitely tell it
> so.

Thanks man. I don't know why there would be network-manager install on a
server, but we live in such a entertainment world. It's good there are
others striving for a professional OS.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Converting audio to AAC using Soundconverter

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 08:01:15PM +0800, Robert Storey wrote:
> Hi Adam, thanks for bringing Opus to my (our) attention. I looked it up and
> it does sound enticing
> 
> However, looking at https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ there doesn't seem to be
> anything about converting files to Opus.

I've never used ffmpeg, but that page does talk about opus support.  And
indeed, in Debian I see:
  ffmpeg Depends: libavcodec57
  libavcodec57 Depends: libopus0
so it's compiled in.  And as ffmpeg boasts support for "the most obscure
ancient formats up to the cutting edge", I guess it has an interface to
select such formats... just don't ask me how.

I've always used opusenc directly.

> I do realize that converting an MPS to Opus isn't going to improve its
> sound quality, it's new encodings that should make the difference.

Yeah, you'll usually want to do this for new files.  As most mp3 you get
come as 320k, you might still want to reencode them to opus at 96k
(transparent for most) or 128k (transparent for all known cases) to save
disk space -- it shouldn't perceptibly degrade quality further.

> However, I can see some benefit in knowing how to do the conversion so
> that all the sound files can be in the same format.

There's one caveat: ReplayGain.  Because of mastering crimes (see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war) I use ReplayGain religiously. 
However opus is not supposed to support ReplayGain, having switched to newer
and better R128.  Unfortunately, the target level of R128 is noticeably
quieter, meaning that in a mix of mp3/ogg/flac/opus files loudness levels
will vary, something ReplayGain/R128 is meant to prevent.  Some players
(like Clementine which I use most) do support ReplayGain on opus files,
however I know of no tool to add ReplayGain tags to opus.  Thus, I go
roundabout way by encoding source->flac->ReplayGain->opus (flac, unlike wav,
supports metadata).

> Just wondering if you have any useful links?

So you want some GUI tool?  Sorry but I'm strictly a console monkey, doing
all my encoding using find, for, etc.


Meow!
-- 
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 08:56:50AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
> I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.
> 
> So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
> and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
> warning that it is deprecated.

/etc/init.d/networking is not deprecated, only calling it with the argument
"restart" (="force-reload") is.  There's no real way to do that reliably in
any non-static setup.

> So I issue:
> # ip address flush dev xxx && ip link set xxx down
> 
> Which seems to work fine. However, when I try to bring the device back
> up with the new config with "ifup xxx"
> It fails. If I first issue a "ifdown xxx" then it works.

ifupdown keeps its state in /run/network/ifstate, if you bring devices up or
down using low-level tools then ifupdown may get confused.  Use --force to
override the saved state.

> So I have couple questions for those who know about the situation in De*an:
> 
> 1. Is there a plan to move away from ipconfig?

ipconfig is a Windows thing, I assume you mean ifconfig.

If so, it's a legacy thing on Linux because of a number of limitations that
can't be overcome without breaking compatibility.  The replacement is "ip"
since a long long time ago.  The only reason to keep using ifconfig is
portability -- there's no "ip" on kfreebsd nor hurd.

> 2. Is there a plan to write a /etc/init.d/networking script that works
> properly?

What do you mean by "properly"?  What's your problem with it?

> 3. Is ifup unrelated to ifconfig and will continue to live and be used
> in the De*an ecosystem?

Yes, ifup is in a different layer than ifconfig -- in fact, the former uses
the latter to do it's work.

There's a plan from the systemd crowd to replace ifupdown with our
unfavourite init cancer's networking facilities, so there might be problems
in the long term, but as for now, ifupdown is the default, and on
kfreebsd/hurd, the only option.  And I have an inkling of suspiction that
systemd-networkd might have some issues getting to Devuan.

There's also ifupdown2, a rewrite in Python, but that's meant for massive
setups with hundreds of dynamic interfaces with little heed for regular
systems.

> 3. For my project: How does one bring up and down interfaces with ip in
> coordination with /etc/network/interfaces? Or shall I use ifup?

Don't try to mix the two -- or rather, you may use ip safely for
configuration (like, changing addresses, routes, etc) but not bringing an
interface up or down.  If ifupdown doesn't fit your needs you can simply
omit that interface in /etc/network/interfaces or let it bring it up during
boot and never touch it again.  Unlike, say, network-manager, ifupdown will
not mess with the interface unless either you or udev explicitely tell it
so.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Top100 on DistroWatch

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

I am reading this with great satisfaction :D.

LONG LIFE CHOICE!

Edward

On 03/06/2016, Jim Murphy  wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:51 PM,   wrote:
>> Some people have criticized the current beta as being a "4gb net install
>> that never uses anything on the disc"
>>
>> A second beta would be a very good idea. Don't jump the gun on stable
>> release.
>>
>
> I agree.
>
> http://distrowatch.com/devuan
> or
> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan
>
> Part of description states "Debian without the complexities
> and dependencies of systemd,"
>
> When you look at the package list(4,957) you find the
> following:
>
>   •  libsystemd0_215-17+deb8u4_amd64.deb
>   •  libsystemd-daemon0_215-17+deb8u4_amd64.deb
>   •  libsystemd-id128-0_215-17+deb8u4_amd64.deb
>   •  libsystemd-journal0_215-17+deb8u4_amd64.deb
>   •  libsystemd-login0_215-17+deb8u4_amd64.deb
>
> Should these be there, or is this something that is
> still a work in progress?
>
> There is also the shim, but it doesn't bother me.
>   •  systemd-shim_9-1_amd64.deb
>
> Just out of curiosity does anyone know where
> DW gets the package lists they post?
>
> Jim
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