Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:03:23PM +0200, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

[cut]

> as / with boot flag enabled, keeping sda4 as ext4 /home (to keep my
> home from a previous crashed installation).
> 
> Network automatically configured via wireless (router inhouse)
> 
> I point to ascii


This is most probably the source of your problems. Have you tried to
install jessie and then upgrade to ascii? 

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Florian Zieboll]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 01:41:57 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> I don't see any strong offenders.  Remember, task packages are meant
> for ordinary users who want an usable system out of the box.  Wasting
> some disk space is not an argument for them -- the size of tasks is
> negligible on even smallest disks you can find in semi-modern
> computers.  You don't use a task in places where such disk space
> matters (embedded, mass vserver hosting -- and that's basically it).
> 
> evince -> should be atril
> avahi -> die die die
> 
> Some bits are situational: orca, xsane, but for an ordinary user it's
> better to err on having them installed.
> 
> > Note to self: One day I'll have to create a "reversed debfoster
> > plugin" for the upcoming devuan-installer^^
> 
> It would be really helpful to fix issues in regular debfoster first,
> it's for all practical purposes unmaintained.


Hallo Adam,

when I install a system for even more ordinary users, I still try to
keep it slim and sleek. More bloat, more stuff to fix later on...

I use debfoster regularly, it's usually one of the first things I
install and run when the base system is up. And I am not aware of any
trouble that I charged debfoster with instead of my own inadvertence -
although I would like it to list other packages which recommend the
one it suggests to remove. 

What problems do you see regarding debfoster? And what do you suggest
as best practice? 

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Robert Storey]

> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:21:40 +0200
> From: 
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails
> Message-ID: <20160615182140.40c99387.emnin...@riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:26:45 +
> schrieb Robert Storey :

>> Hi Robert!
>>
>> Note that my following comments apply only to a graphical install,
>> full-desktop version, which is actually the only kind I've attempted
>> so I can't say what would happen with a minimal install in
>> text-mode...
>
> In the end i went back to your suggestion: But it fails as well. Would
> you say 10 attempts of installing, installing  the base system
> are enough?
>
> On me it fails always at the same point and always with the same error.
> (For the record: libjson-c2 is needed by rsyslog but not installed).

It typically takes me about 3 or 4 attempts for the installer to succeed.
One thing to note: I have two ways of connecting to the Internet, either my
hard-wired ADSL or using my wifi with my smartphone as the wireless access
point. Where I live, my ADSL is very slow, the wifi/smart phone is faster.
And I noticed that I have greater success with the smart phone. I assume
that this is because there is less latency. I said "3 or 4 attempts for the
installer to succeed" and that is with the smart phone. On my slower ADSL,
it takes so long and times out so much that I give up in frustration.

Maybe closely related to this: I have my own little website (
http://outsideinn.tw) and when I upload graphic files to it using
Filezilla, I run into the same sort of issue - some files upload, but there
are timeouts and network error messages, but if I just re-run all the files
eventually upload. However, for this to succeed, I must choose the option
to "resume" (as opposed to the option "overwrite"), otherwise I will see
failure upon failure. Again, I think the issue is network latency - if I
choose smartphone/wifi which is faster than ADSL, I almost never see this
problem. If I'm not mistaken, the failure messages I am experiencing at the
slower speeds is the result of a network timeout.

I'm not a good programmer and thus not capable of writing a better
installer, but I would like to suggest the possibility of taking the Ubuntu
approach which allows the option to complete an installation with no
network connection, using files on the CD as the base. Then, an
update/upgrade after rebooting.

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:21:18AM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:04:08 +0200
> Adam Borowski  wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> > > Also great would be an early no-install-recommends option / switch.
> > 
> > If you consider no-install-recommends, why would you use d-i tasks,
> > which are made specifically with recommends in mind?  Just deselect
> > everything and configure the system to your tastes once d-i finishes.
> 
> 
> You're probably right... but wait, when I look over the output of  
> $ apt-rdepends -s recommends -s depends task-xfce-desktop
> there are not too much recommended packages I'd want to see installed
> for an average desktop. 

I don't see any strong offenders.  Remember, task packages are meant for
ordinary users who want an usable system out of the box.  Wasting some disk
space is not an argument for them -- the size of tasks is negligible on even
smallest disks you can find in semi-modern computers.  You don't use a task
in places where such disk space matters (embedded, mass vserver hosting --
and that's basically it).

evince -> should be atril
avahi -> die die die

Some bits are situational: orca, xsane, but for an ordinary user it's better
to err on having them installed.

> Note to self: One day I'll have to create a "reversed debfoster plugin"
> for the upcoming devuan-installer^^

It would be really helpful to fix issues in regular debfoster first, it's
for all practical purposes unmaintained.


Meow!
-- 
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 21:21:08 +
schrieb dev :

> I did a text mode install with Devuan amd64 DVD.iso over the weekend.
> In a virt-manager instance no less. Everything worked fine. Maybe
> give text mode install a try and see if results are better.

No, here it's in all expert "modes" the same. I remember that i also
had failures installing to qemu or to Virtualbox, but there mostly
after tasksel - so, using the rescue mode of the installer iso i could
play around.

In virtual only the simple mode (which installs jessie and as a
bootloader does not offer lilo (IIRC - but not sure on this point) went
through.

Now, on that machine i absolutely want to keep the existing /home
partition (so expert mode is needed).

I think i'll try a refracta iso; may that will work (hopefully ;) ).
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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Florian Zieboll]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:04:08 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> > Also great would be an early no-install-recommends option / switch.
> 
> If you consider no-install-recommends, why would you use d-i tasks,
> which are made specifically with recommends in mind?  Just deselect
> everything and configure the system to your tastes once d-i finishes.


You're probably right... but wait, when I look over the output of  
$ apt-rdepends -s recommends -s depends task-xfce-desktop
there are not too much recommended packages I'd want to see installed
for an average desktop. 

Note to self: One day I'll have to create a "reversed debfoster plugin"
for the upcoming devuan-installer^^

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 07:59:09PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
> 
> We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are we?
> 

Only on machines without keyboards.  Is the X on-screen keyboard still 
a thing? 

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:21:11 +
schrieb Robert Storey :

> Yes, I think that this IS important to fix. Even though I was able to
> work around the problem, there are many others out there who will
> give up at the first sign of trouble and head straight back to the
> comfort of Poettering Linux.

Frankly, considering the ease of installation, i already thought i
could go back the manjaro openrc installation i had before (which got
corrupted by some qemu experiments) and run devuan only in virtualbox
(but that's not really a good idea when you try to put together a
desktop for devuan - imho).

As for the installer: i remember the siduction people (who
unfortunately went full speed toward systemd :-( ) they had a nice
simple installing routine which is based on html. It was very simple,
but clear and self explaining, IIRC ...

In any case, although the installation is not easy to build, it should
not create trouble.

One good point in the devuan/debian installer (and i didn't remember
that from former times) is the automatic setup of the network. Years
ago you needed absolutely the hardwired connection to the router, now
the wireless setup works flawlessly.
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

Since we discussed in irc also about the installer problems (i have,
but others, at least partly share) i thought it might be a good idea to
describe exactly what i did and tried:

I use the installer cd 

I used both, graphical and text mode installer, so far no difference.

I chose several language layouts (precisely, de_utf8.de, fr_utf8.de,
it_utf8.it), defined keyboard as de, loaded all components from the
installer cd, formatted the hd manually, fresh formatting the sda1 ext4
as / with boot flag enabled, keeping sda4 as ext4 /home (to keep my
home from a previous crashed installation).

Network automatically configured via wireless (router inhouse)

I point to ascii

root with passwd, & user 

Then installing the base system i'm prompted with an error, which is
always the same:

error processing rsyslog (--configure)
dependency problems

rsyslog depends on libjson-c2 (>= 0.10); however:
 Package libjson-c2 is not installed

So far for the error.

Since i did succeed installing devuan on another machine (with terrible
overheating problems though) with amd graphics, may be it's worth to
note that the machine where i'm unable to install devuan is:

Sony-Vaio Core 7, nvidia graphics, 16 gig ram, 750 gig hd

(The netinst.iso fails equally).



I could install from the same iso, with some problems also, to qemu and
virtualbox running on a manjaro openrc linux. 

I could install devuan using the instructions of devlfanboy for a
minimal install on github - but trying to add more software and a
desktop, i ran into big, unsolvible problems at least for me ("fsck
exited with code 8" - during the boot; googling for that error results,
that might be a systemd related problem - which i believed to not be
able to deal with).

That's it from my side. Sorry for being unprecise, but i'm not so linux
skilled.

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[DNG] Bugs in the beta of gnuinos

[aitor_czr]

Hi all,

Uploading the *preview* of the beta:

http://www.gnuinos.org/beta/

There are some bugs. For example, I can't run the system in live mode.

This is what i get:

Starting OpenBSD Secure Shell Server: sshd.
Usage : login [-p] [name]
 login [-p] [-h host] [-f name]

[... several times...]

On the other hand, @Edward:

The backend of Simple-Netaid depends on wpasupplicant, i also added more 
dependencies without any satisfactory result because the connection via 
eth0 *still* doesn't work.


But wlan0 works installing wpasupplicant :)

Any hints ?

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[dev]

On 06/15/2016 11:21 AM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:



So in this very moment, apparently there is no way to install devuan :-(

May be someone has an idea about alternatives (???)


I did a text mode install with Devuan amd64 DVD.iso over the weekend. In 
a virt-manager instance no less. Everything worked fine. Maybe give text 
mode install a try and see if results are better.

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Re: [DNG] Custom OS initiator. In need of some hints...

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

I am saying the child and parent at not the same at the point fork()
executes for the following reasons taken from "man 2 fork".

Quote taken from "man 2 fork": (Please not the *except*)
<<
  The new process, referred to as the child, is an  exact
duplicate  of  the
   calling  process,  referred  to as the parent, except for the following
   points:

   *  The child has its own unique process ID, and this PID does not match
  the ID of any existing process group (setpgid(2)).

   *  The  child's  parent  process ID is the same as the parent's process
  ID.

   *  The child does not inherit  its  parent's  memory  locks  (mlock(2),
  mlockall(2)).

   *  Process  resource  utilizations (getrusage(2)) and CPU time counters
  (times(2)) are reset to zero in the child.

   *  The child's set of pending  signals  is  initially  empty  (sigpend‐
  ing(2)).

   *  The  child  does  not  inherit semaphore adjustments from its parent
  (semop(2)).

   *  The child does not inherit process-associated record locks from  its
  parent  (fcntl(2)).   (On  the  other hand, it does inherit fcntl(2)
  open file description locks and flock(2) locks from its parent.)

   *  The child does not inherit timers  from  its  parent  (setitimer(2),
  alarm(2), timer_create(2)).

   *  The  child  does not inherit outstanding asynchronous I/O operations
  from its parent (aio_read(3), aio_write(3)), nor does it inherit any
  asynchronous I/O contexts from its parent (see io_setup(2)).
>>

Further down the same manpage continues to list more differences. This
is why I am saying the child and parent differ in some aspects.

Edward

On 15/06/2016, Didier Kryn  wrote:
> Le 14/06/2016 19:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit :
>> To me fork() looks much more than simply a function that does
>> some processing returning a result as it looks more like an
>> instruction directed at the kernel scheduler to split the process into
>> a parent and child that are not equal in all respects.
>  They are *equal* in absolutely all respects except a bookkeeping
> detail: the kernel decides that one of them is the parent and the other
> is the child. And fork() informs them of this status by the means of its
> return value. Appart from this detail, every variable has the same value
> and the program-counter is the same. The image carried by the word
> "fork" is very explicit: the two processes are the same in the past and
> different in the future. And you are free to decide which of them will
> do what - but, ok, you can wait() a child but not a parent.
>
>  Didier
>
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:26:45 +
schrieb :

> i Florian! I tried it that way but it did not work. I was prompted by
> the msg that libjson-c2 does not exist. May be it's provided by
> another package but i did not succeed in finding it out :-(
> 
> In the meantime, i tried another way: The instructions of devlfanboy
> on th git for a minimal installation. That went thru fine, but
> unfortunately, there seems to be something left of the old &
> completely corrupted installation that was on that disk before (a
> rest of grub). 
> 
> In the end i made it by lilo -M /dev/sda mbr.
> 
> But now there is another problem: Seems there are lost all the shadow
> passwords, both, for root and user. Is there a way to re-establish
> them? Please keep in mind, i'm a simple user, eh ... ;)
> 
> Thanks in any case for your patience.

In the end i gave up.

It was possible, and even easy to delete the root password, then i
could log in, use startx etc. Also adduser to add a normal user with
user-id 1000.

But then, booting i always get an error on fsck

'fsck exited with error code 8'

With Ctrl-D i could continue to boot, but the / volume was in read only
mode. By 

'mount -o remount,rw /dev/sda3 /'

i could get it back into read-write mode. But it's only for one session
the fsck error is back on any boot.

But, searching the web for the error code of fsck i saw it seems
something systemd related which needs patches here and there and i
decided to give up. It's already nearly 2 days i'm fighting with this
problem, and enough is enough.

Someone knows about a clean and simple way to install devuan?
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:26:45 +
schrieb Robert Storey :

Hi Robert!

> Note that my following comments apply only to a graphical install,
> full-desktop version, which is actually the only kind I've attempted
> so I can't say what would happen with a minimal install in
> text-mode...
> 
> I've gotten this error on EVERY install I've done with Devuan, both
> laptop and desktop computer. However, recovery from the error was
> fairly straightforward, just go back to the screen to install the
> basic system, run it again (note: do not exit the installer!).
> Sometimes the error will still recur, but just keep going back and
> run it again, it will succeed. I believe what's happening is that the
> installer is downloading most of the files it needs but fails to
> download some, so by re-running it goes back and gets the rest of the
> files, it does not start from the very beginning and re-download
> everything. As to why it fails go get those files on the first run, I
> can't say, but it is downloading a lot and I'm guessing that any
> network latency is causing this problem.
> 
> Note that I am in Taiwan and since there is no local Devuan mirror
> here (I think), I'm downloading from the US server. This means a lot
> of network latency. Devuan users in the USA might not be seeing this
> error, and ditto for Europeans if there is a mirror in Europe.
> Getting back to my situation, even if there is a Devuan mirror in
> Japan it wouldn't help me because as I understand it, our network
> traffic to Japan is routed via the USA.
> 
> best regards,
> Robert

In the end i went back to your suggestion: But it fails as well. Would
you say 10 attempts of installing, installing  the base system
are enough?

On me it fails always at the same point and always with the same error. 
(For the record: libjson-c2 is needed by rsyslog but not installed).

So in this very moment, apparently there is no way to install devuan :-(

May be someone has an idea about alternatives (???)
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[DNG] smbclient problems

[Antonio Trkdz.tab]

Hi All,

I am trying to install smbclient to get a windows share printing system
going and I get the following error:

# apt-get install smbclient
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 smbclient : Depends: samba-common (= 2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u3) but
2:4.1.17+dfsg-2+deb8u2 is to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

So it actually wants a newer version of the samba-common package I
currently have installed...
do you have any work-around for this?
In a previous conversation I found:

*--Author: *Jaromil
*Date: *2016-05-11 14:07 +100
*To: *Nikolay Hristov
*CC: *dng
*Subject: *Re: [DNG] devuan samba package problem
On Wed, 11 May 2016, Nikolay Hristov wrote:



*> I am trying to install samba on my newly installed Devuan (jessie)
server: > samba-common package is older version (4.1.x instead of 4.2.x): >
ii samba-common 2:4.1.17+dfsg-2+deb8u2 > > Any chance of fixing that?*

this may be the sort of glitch occurring on updates on the debian
side, which Nextime is trying to solve in Amprolla. To verify that, do
try the install again in a few hourse.

If it persists, let us know then, best if via a gitlab issue. also
please detail when you installed it and what package sources used.

ciao
--

Shall I just wait few ours?

Cheers!

Antonio
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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 01:20:23PM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> Also great would be an early no-install-recommends option / switch.

If you consider no-install-recommends, why would you use d-i tasks, which
are made specifically with recommends in mind?  Just deselect everything and
configure the system to your tastes once d-i finishes.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Robert Storey]

>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:21:20 +0200
> From: 
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails
> Message-ID: <20160615112120.5a0ca29a.emnin...@riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:26:45 +
> schrieb dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org:
>
> Hi Robert!
>
> Even if it's not really good news, it's a kind of confort, that this
> problem does not happen only to me ;) And seems Didier Kryn experiments
> the same.

Yes, I'm also (sort of) relieved that I'm not the only one experiencing
this. Thought I was going crazy!

> But if so: Shouldn't we investigate the installer? I mean, it's not
> really user friendly to have an installer subject to that kind of
> errors.

Yes, I think that this IS important to fix. Even though I was able to work
around the problem, there are many others out there who will give up at the
first sign of trouble and head straight back to the comfort of Poettering
Linux.

> schrieb Simon Walter :
>
> Hi Simon!
>
> > Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical
> > installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like
> > heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully
> > functional.
>
>
> My problem (the failure while installing the base system) happens in
> both, the graphical and the text mode installer.
>
> I'd suspect there's something wrong with the underlying routines (as
> also L. Nodden noted).

Although I didn't try the text-mode installer, I suspect that's not the
problem. I'm still guessing it's network latency that trips up the
installer, though I could certainly be wrong.

One thing I have noticed is that the Devuan installer gives you a
completely up-to-date system when it's finished. There's no need to run
"apt-get update" and "apt-get dist-upgrade" after installation. I presume
that's because the installer downloads every package it's going to install.
I didn't see an option to NOT do this. On Ubuntu, for example, you can
choose to not even connect to the Internet while installing, though after
the first boot you'd be wise to update/upgrade. Perhaps the Devuan
installer should offer this option? Or is that a bad idea?

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 08:52 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:


We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are
we?

Simon


My problem (the failure while installing the base system) happens in
both, the graphical and the text mode installer.

I'd suspect there's something wrong with the underlying routines (as
also L. Nodden noted).

A working and solid keyboard only installer would be fine for me - and
i think for most users: It's all about being well explained, input
error tollerant and solid ...

(I could even live fine with an i3 based desktop, when it is well
done ;) ).



Aha! OK, then please disregard my comment. Because I thought the problem 
was only with the graphical installer. It seems it is something deeper.


Do you get the overheating/CPU problem? I think that could be debugged, 
but it would have to be done on the problem machine.


This is a good idea:

On 06/09/2016 05:28 AM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:
> W dniu 07.06.2016 o 12:38, emnin...@riseup.net pisze:
>> (How can i debug the installation?)
>
> You could use this document:
> 
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Minimal-install-guide

>
> Use debootstrap --variant=minbase --include=nano,nvi,procps jessie
> /target http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged to add top command - You
> could use top on another console i.e. ctrl+alt+F3 after chroot to /target

Though maybe, while the installer is being perfected, there should be 
some tools for debugging available, rather than just busybox. Then 
people with problems can more easily help debug them and get the 
valuable info to the developers.


I installed from the netinstaller. So maybe on the full CD there is top 
and other tools. Anyone know what programs are on about the full CD?


Simon
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Didier Kryn]

Le 15/06/2016 12:59, Simon Walter a écrit :

On 06/15/2016 06:21 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
...


But if so: Shouldn't we investigate the installer? I mean, it's not
really user friendly to have an installer subject to that kind of
errors. And in my experience there are even other problems like the
overheating problem for amd graphics based machines, at least for some
of them. Or the fact, that the installer seems to not install the base
system it brings itself but seems to pull it from the mirrors.

Anyway, i'm well aware human ressources at Devuan are limited but the
installer should be worth a major consideration (?)


Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical 
installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like 
heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully 
functional. 


I didn't use the graphic installer. and I got the same problem as 
Robert, needing to run twice "install base system". I also remember 
reported overheating (related to the graphics card) were not observed in 
the graphic mode.


Actually I never used the graphical installer; neither in Devuan 
nor ever in Debian. I'm perfectly happy with the curses mode and see 
absolutely no need for the graphic one. But its removal does wouldn't 
solve the issue.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

The following reply escaped me without editing the subject and the
author line. Please simply delete it or at least do not regard it.
Sorry for the mistake! :-(

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:16:48 +
schrieb Simon Walter :

Hi Simon!

> Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical 
> installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like 
> heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully 
> functional.
> 
> I remember back in the days when Debian got the graphical installer,
> it was to be treated as BETA quality and if it didn't work, to use
> the text base.
> 
> I think the same applies here. Maybe we need to put a "use with
> caution" note. I think there was something like this on the original
> Debian graphical installer.
> 
> We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are
> we?
> 
> Simon

My problem (the failure while installing the base system) happens in
both, the graphical and the text mode installer.

I'd suspect there's something wrong with the underlying routines (as
also L. Nodden noted).

A working and solid keyboard only installer would be fine for me - and
i think for most users: It's all about being well explained, input
error tollerant and solid ...

(I could even live fine with an i3 based desktop, when it is well
done ;) ).

Cheers.
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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 21, Issue 70

[emninger]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:16:48 +
schrieb dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org:

Hi Simon!

> Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical 
> installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like 
> heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully 
> functional.
> 
> I remember back in the days when Debian got the graphical installer,
> it was to be treated as BETA quality and if it didn't work, to use
> the text base.
> 
> I think the same applies here. Maybe we need to put a "use with
> caution" note. I think there was something like this on the original
> Debian graphical installer.
> 
> We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are
> we?
> 
> Simon

My problem (the failure while installing the base system) happens in
both, the graphical and the text mode installer.

I'd suspect there's something wrong with the underlying routines (as
also L. Nodden noted).

A working and solid keyboard only installer would be fine for me - and
i think for most users: It's all about being well explained, input
error tollerant and solid ...

(I could even live fine with an i3 based desktop, when it is well
done ;) ).

Cheers.
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[DNG] developer options

[richard lucassen]

After an install of Devuan Jessie, I find this:

$ cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan.list 
# autogenerated by devuan-baseconf
# decomment following lines to  enable the developers devuan repository
#deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan jessie main
#deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/devuan jessie main

What will happen if I uncomment these lines?

R.

-- 
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http://contact.xaq.nl/
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Florian Zieboll]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:59:09 +0900
Simon Walter  wrote:

> Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical 
> installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like 
> heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully 
> functional.

TUFT! (thumbs up for this:)


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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 08:16 PM, richard lucassen wrote:
...

1) Wishlist: a real PXE installer like Debian is providing. Just an
intrd.gz and a vmlinuz that will guide you through the install process.
No need for USB sticks or CD drives. Running a PXE installer together
with an apt-cacher-ng saves time (internal network speed) and saves
bandwidth usage for the Devuan community.


I think this would be really useful and professional.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Florian Zieboll]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:46:26 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> perhaps we can start recommending some pinning to avoid
> avahi and/or dbus and such things.


It might be nice to have a selection of such "-1" pinning options
available at install time - perhaps along with the possibility to add
and "pin <500" the backports repository. 

Also great would be an early no-install-recommends option / switch.

(Just for the case someone is going to let loose on the installer;)


libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[richard lucassen]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:46:26 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> > The only remarkable thing is a running avahi-daemon. But that's not
> > a big issue IMHO.
> 
> yes, I'm having fun myself punching an apt-get remove --purge of
> avahi-daemon and dbus now and then, gives me a degree of satisfaction.
> :^) but we need to keep those packages in jessie. perhaps remove avahi
> from recommends?

$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01norecommend 
APT::Install-Recommends "0";
APT::Install-Suggests "0";

> the problem with removing any other package from
> devuan is that we don't want to diverge one single step from the
> initial mission of *just getting rid of systemd*. jessie should be
> just that. perhaps we can start recommending some pinning to avoid
> avahi and/or dbus and such things.

Not "getting rid of systemd" but "freedom of choice". If someone wants
to install Devuan with systemd, it's his or her choice. Although I
think that noone on this list will do that ;-)

But a few other things:

1) Wishlist: a real PXE installer like Debian is providing. Just an
intrd.gz and a vmlinuz that will guide you through the install process.
No need for USB sticks or CD drives. Running a PXE installer together
with an apt-cacher-ng saves time (internal network speed) and saves
bandwidth usage for the Devuan community.

2) Wouldn't it be better to use the same dir structure like the
Debian mirrors?:

ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/devuan/

compared to:

ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/debian/

R.

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http://contact.xaq.nl/
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 06:21 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
...


But if so: Shouldn't we investigate the installer? I mean, it's not
really user friendly to have an installer subject to that kind of
errors. And in my experience there are even other problems like the
overheating problem for amd graphics based machines, at least for some
of them. Or the fact, that the installer seems to not install the base
system it brings itself but seems to pull it from the mirrors.

Anyway, i'm well aware human ressources at Devuan are limited but the
installer should be worth a major consideration (?)


Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical 
installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like 
heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully 
functional.


I remember back in the days when Debian got the graphical installer, it 
was to be treated as BETA quality and if it didn't work, to use the text 
base.


I think the same applies here. Maybe we need to put a "use with caution" 
note. I think there was something like this on the original Debian 
graphical installer.


We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are we?

Simon

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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Jaromil]

thanks for your reports richard, also about the web mirror.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, richard lucassen wrote:

> The only remarkable thing is a running avahi-daemon. But that's not
> a big issue IMHO.

yes, I'm having fun myself punching an apt-get remove --purge of
avahi-daemon and dbus now and then, gives me a degree of satisfaction.
:^) but we need to keep those packages in jessie. perhaps remove avahi
from recommends? the problem with removing any other package from
devuan is that we don't want to diverge one single step from the
initial mission of *just getting rid of systemd*. jessie should be
just that. perhaps we can start recommending some pinning to avoid
avahi and/or dbus and such things.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[emninger]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:26:45 +
schrieb dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org:

Hi Robert!

> Note that my following comments apply only to a graphical install,
> full-desktop version, which is actually the only kind I've attempted
> so I can't say what would happen with a minimal install in
> text-mode...
> 
> I've gotten this error on EVERY install I've done with Devuan, both
> laptop and desktop computer. However, recovery from the error was
> fairly straightforward, just go back to the screen to install the
> basic system, run it again (note: do not exit the installer!).
> Sometimes the error will still recur, but just keep going back and
> run it again, it will succeed. I believe what's happening is that the
> installer is downloading most of the files it needs but fails to
> download some, so by re-running it goes back and gets the rest of the
> files, it does not start from the very beginning and re-download
> everything. As to why it fails go get those files on the first run, I
> can't say, but it is downloading a lot and I'm guessing that any
> network latency is causing this problem.
> 
> Note that I am in Taiwan and since there is no local Devuan mirror
> here (I think), I'm downloading from the US server. This means a lot
> of network latency. Devuan users in the USA might not be seeing this
> error, and ditto for Europeans if there is a mirror in Europe.
> Getting back to my situation, even if there is a Devuan mirror in
> Japan it wouldn't help me because as I understand it, our network
> traffic to Japan is routed via the USA.
> 
> best regards,
> Robert

Even if it's not really good news, it's a kind of confort, that this
problem does not happen only to me ;) And seems Didier Kryn experiments
the same.

But if so: Shouldn't we investigate the installer? I mean, it's not
really user friendly to have an installer subject to that kind of
errors. And in my experience there are even other problems like the
overheating problem for amd graphics based machines, at least for some
of them. Or the fact, that the installer seems to not install the base
system it brings itself but seems to pull it from the mirrors.

Anyway, i'm well aware human ressources at Devuan are limited but the
installer should be worth a major consideration (?)

Thanks again!

PS. If i do not succeed in repairing my installation like Florian
suggested i'll turn back to your method :)
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Greg Olsen]

On 2016-06-15 02:30, Simon Walter wrote:
> On 06/15/2016 10:26 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:
> > So the default for everyone regardless of the template used is "no"
> > network.
>
> The coin drops. I see. That is what is going on.
   [snip]
>
> > Yep. A simple network could be set up "out of the box".
> >
> > However I must first ask, what happened to your "rule of least 
surprise" ?

>
> Yes, I stand by my suggestion that the default is minimal and everything
> else takes parameters. How does that contradict the rule of least
> surprise? If they are not specified, then no action is taken. By the way
> it's not *my* rule - just something I was taught similar to convention
> over configuration.

Yes, I'm familiar with the (POLA) principle of least astonishment/surprise.
For a minute there, I was left with a different impression.
I see now you did write "/if arguments were given"/.  And I do concur.

To further the idea:

In addition to arguments (specified as template options), we can source 
an optional file '/etc/default/lxc-devuan' to support local defaults for 
template options.  Any parameter set prior to sourcing the file can be 
overridden by it, with CLI template options later taking precedence.


> Hmmm... I am not sure which version you are using. I see this in 
lxc-debian:

>
> password="$(dd if=/dev/urandom bs=6 count=1 2> /dev/null | base64)"
> echo "root:$password" | chroot $rootfs chpasswd
> echo "Root password is '$password', please change !"
>
> I know some of the other templates to use 'root' as the password. I have
> seen this criticized:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LXC_Template_Security_Improvements

The lxc-debian version I have from LXC 1.1.5 has this:

echo "root:root" | chroot $rootfs chpasswd
echo "Root password is 'root', please change !"

Therefore I didn't remove it. It just wasn't upstream in v1.1.5.

However I do see the random pw in Devuan Jessie LXC 1.0.6.  It 
(lxc-debian) must have updated in the Jessie lxc package. That's a good 
catch on your part!


I noticed the lxc-debian template is getting more attention lately, 
finally.  Probably more than they've given to xen-tools for years (for 
debian images/roles specifically).


My first impression when using the lxc-debian template (from v.1.1.5) 
was similar to your reaction to all the perl warnings, and the like. At 
the time I chose to overlook the messages because they were 
insignificant to the initial goal of simply getting it working correctly.


Interestingly, I also had a similar impression when using 
"xen-create-image --dist=squeeze ...". from what now seems very long 
ago. To my recollection, the lxc-debian (1.1.5) template seems to have 
some of the exact same issues 'xen-create-image --dist=squeeze' had way 
back when. Who knows, maybe now they're starting to polish out some of 
the rough edges?


Back to the topic at hand:
Regarding the password, I take no issue with changing to the random method.

>
> >
> > > These seem like they are useful. My criticism is not directly at 
any one

> > > of these ideas.
> >
> > I don't take any of what you said as criticism. I think tossing around
> > ideas for improvement is a good thing.
>
> OK. Good. I don't want to piss anyone off, and my social skills are not
> that smooth. So I worry.

Neither are mine.  So I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize in 
advance for my behavior!


>
> >
> > I also see things as falling into a category:
> > 1. Base functionality (priority, need it now)
> > 2. Enhancements (nice to have)
> >
> > I think the immediate focus should be to get the base functionality
> > correct, submit upstream, and make a package available.
>
> I think what you have so far is most of the way there.

I just added LXC version coverage to the README, and testing lxc-devuan 
from a non-Devuan LXC host is curiously missing. (Although it's probably 
better to track test coverage on a project wiki page.)


The point is, we still need more testing under non-Devuan OS's.  Can you 
help with that?


>
> >
> > Work on enhancements can start anytime, including now if you're so
> > inclined. A typical way to handle enhancements is for each developer to
> > work in their own feature branch, for possible later inclusion in 
master

> > branch.
>
> I am not familiar with gitlab. Does one join a project? Or should I
> create a new project? Or should I just hack locally and send a pull
> request? I am also wondering if some place on gitlab is better to
> discuss when I have a question for this project. Or right here on DNG? I
> don't want to start on adding things like some of those template
> parameters and then you've already done it. You seem pretty fast paced.
> I hope I can keep up!

Don't feel bad.  I'm learning GitLab too.

Here's some of what I've been able to glean from the GitLab documentation:

The simple feature branch/master branch workflow seems appropriate for a 
small project like lxc-devuan. A developer/feature branch is created 
that you have 

Re: [DNG] Custom OS initiator. In need of some hints...

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/06/2016 19:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit :

To me fork() looks much more than simply a function that does
some processing returning a result as it looks more like an
instruction directed at the kernel scheduler to split the process into
a parent and child that are not equal in all respects.
They are *equal* in absolutely all respects except a bookkeeping 
detail: the kernel decides that one of them is the parent and the other 
is the child. And fork() informs them of this status by the means of its 
return value. Appart from this detail, every variable has the same value 
and the program-counter is the same. The image carried by the word 
"fork" is very explicit: the two processes are the same in the past and 
different in the future. And you are free to decide which of them will 
do what - but, ok, you can wait() a child but not a parent.


Didier
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Didier Kryn]

Le 15/06/2016 00:57, Robert Storey a écrit :
However, recovery from the error was fairly straightforward, just go 
back to the screen to install the basic system, run it again (note: do 
not exit the installer!). Sometimes the error will still recur, but 
just keep going back and run it again, it will succeed.


I've experimented the same.Didier

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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Florian Zieboll]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 02:25:45 +0200
 wrote:

> But now there is another problem: Seems there are lost all the shadow
> passwords, both, for root and user. Is there a way to re-establish
> them?

Hallo Emninger,

if you have the installer-disk handy, boot to rescue mode (chroot) and
just use 'passwd'. If you want to use another boot disk and chroot
manually, you'll need to make sure that it has a kernel from the same
branch. 

libre Grüße,

Florian

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