Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Edward Bartolo]

When I used Delphi it had a predefined number type specifically for
financial calculations. This was the Currency type.

Currency = int64

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/182475/how-to-avoid-rounding-problems-when-comparing-currency-values-in-delphi

On 04/08/2016, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult  wrote:
> On 03.08.2016 23:58, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>
>> Floating-point just isn't accurate enough.  Multiple-precision scaled
>> fixed-point would work, even if it's binary.
>
> The limited precision isn't the actual problem, but the strictly
> defined rounding rules. To be financially accurate, you'll have to
> comply the financial calculation rules (which OTOH might not be
> actually physically correct) - these are just different numbe spaces.
>
>
> --mtx
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-- 
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Albert Einstein
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 04.08.2016 02:06, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> So should we respond by saying that "We don't use or encourage the use
> of systemd-shim in Devuan.  Our approach is to rebuild the packages
> which in debian depend on systemd, without that dependency instead."

Maybe also add:

"systemd-shim is only an *intermediate* workaround, until all the
systemd-infected packages are fixed."


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:38:28 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 03/08/2016 15:25, Go Linux a écrit :

> > Hope to see you there soon
> >
> > @KatolaZ - Did not know about using port  so I got to learn
> > something too!  Now I need to figure out where to make that
> > setting . . . there are so many things I don;t know . . .  
> 
>  Always learn as well, but I'm rather like Aitor; I always
> regarded IRC like something mysterious. No idea still how to connect
> and what happens then. I'll read this tutorial when I can find some
> time :-)
> 
>  Didier

Just install hexchat, connect to Freenode at the default no-ssl port
(6667 I think), say /join #debianfork, and bang, you're there, and the
rest is obvious.

Later you can do ssl and all of that stuff.

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] Building w/ gtk2 vs gtk3

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 31.07.2016 21:55, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

> ..appears "we" are "upgrading" Chromium to GTK3 now:
> http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/c/chromium-browser/chromium-browser_52.0.2743.82-4_changelog

if they only would drop the internal widget toolkit adaption layer ...


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] OT: tiny widget toolkit [Was: Building w/ gtk2 vs gtk3]

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 02.07.2016 09:36, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> I don't know if fltk is at all relevant in this matter;  it seems to 
> be a simpple thing, although it is saddled wth C++

Exactly that's the problem. And it doesn't actually seem to be
suitable for running directly on DRM.

--mtx

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Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 03.08.2016 23:58, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> Floating-point just isn't accurate enough.  Multiple-precision scaled
> fixed-point would work, even if it's binary.

The limited precision isn't the actual problem, but the strictly
defined rounding rules. To be financially accurate, you'll have to
comply the financial calculation rules (which OTOH might not be
actually physically correct) - these are just different numbe spaces.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Oh, how I hate systemd

[BRM]

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 2:35 PM, Rainer Weikusat  
wrote:


 > Rowland Penny  (by way of Rowland Penny 
 > ) writes: > > So, a user was complaining over on the 
 > Samba mailing list, that the > > Samba wiki page about creating a new AD DC 
 > wasn't much use with fedora. > > I set up fedora 24 and tried to give it a 
 > fixed ip (part of which was> > removing networkmanager), set everything up 
 > and rebooted, I then found > > I couldn't connect to the network, checks 
 > found that /etc/resolv.conf > > had disappeared. > > When I tried to create 
 > a new one, I couldn't, it wouldn't let me!! > > A quick trawl of the 
 > internet led to an interesting fact, systemd now > > mounts /etc read-only 
 > and if /etc/resolv.conf doesn't exist, systemd > > creates a dangling 
 > symlink. 
 > > You couldn't make this up, why O why make /etc read only ? > My guess 
 > > would be: Because people aren't supposed to change the 'legacy > 
 > > configuration' directly but use the proper systemd commands instead. One > 
 > > could also assume that this is to protect systemd from changes it > 
 > > couldn't parse.
Well, as a software developer that produces software with config files under 
/etc that is just outright wrong.I went to Linux b/c I have control. If I 
wanted to give up control, I'd use Windows.

Ben
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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Go Linux]

On Wed, 8/3/16, Rick Moen  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] IRC Channel
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016, 6:33 PM
 
Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):

> @KatolaZ - Did not know about using port  so I got to learn
> something too!  Now I need to figure out where to make that setting .
> . . there are so many things I don;t know . . .

For irssi and many other IRC clients, port number can be specified as a
command-line option, and equivalently in the configuration file where you
define how to connect to various IRC networks/hosts.

If you have no other preference, I'll put in a good word for irssi.



I use xchat. What can I say, it works.  (Wish my typing did.)  No config file 
but there was an option to "use SSL for all the servers on this network 
(freenode)" and I ticked it.  I guess that's it.  It's been a long day . . . 

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd

[Daniel Reurich]

So should we respond by saying that "We don't use or encourage the use
of systemd-shim in Devuan.  Our approach is to rebuild the packages
which in debian depend on systemd, without that dependency instead."

Regards,
Daniel.



On 04/08/16 09:12, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd
> Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 09:12:02 +
> Resent-From: Martin Pitt 
> Resent-To: debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org
> Resent-CC: debian-de...@lists.debian.org, w...@debian.org
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:09:32 +0200
> From: Martin Pitt 
> Reply-To: Martin Pitt , 832...@bugs.debian.org
> To: Debian BTS Submit 
> CC: Steve Langasek , Allison Ryan Lortie 
> 
> Package: wnpp
> 
> Neither Steve nor I still have any interest in maintaining
> systemd-shim. Debian's default init system is systemd, Ubuntu supports
> nothing else any more (and does not even have systemd-shim any more),
> upstart is gone from both Debian and Ubuntu, so the only use case for
> it right now is running Debian with SysVinit (in particular, on
> non-Linux flavors).
> 
> So this should be picked up by someone who is interested in keeping SysV
> init
> support for desktops (i. e. which need logind or timedatectl) alive in
> Debian.
> There are currently no release-critical bugs and the package is working
> reasonably well for main use cases, but there *are* a few bugs worth looking
> into.
> 
> The upstream branch is currently at
> .
> Allison isn't interested any more in this either, so I suggest that
> the upstream repo gets mothballed and systemd-shim just becomes a
> Debian-native package (I'm not aware of any other distro using it
> anyway).
> 
> Note that systemd-shim currently uses cgmanager, which by itself is
> obsolete [1].
> 
> Package description:
> 
>   Description: shim for systemd
>This package emulates the systemd function that are required to run
>the systemd helpers without using the init service
> 
> 
> Martin
> 
> [1] https://s3hh.wordpress.com/2016/06/18/whither-cgmanager/
> 


-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):

> @KatolaZ - Did not know about using port  so I got to learn
> something too!  Now I need to figure out where to make that setting .
> . . there are so many things I don;t know . . .

For irssi and many other IRC clients, port number can be specified as a
command-line option, and equivalently in the configuration file where you
define how to connect to various IRC networks/hosts.

If you have no other preference, I'll put in a good word for irssi.


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Re: [DNG] Multiarch issues

[Nate Bargmann]

And, for anyone interested, here is the output of aptitude after the
backports repository has been disabled:

$ sudo aptitude install libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  at-spi2-core{a} glib-networking:i386{a} libaspell15:i386{ab} 
libatk-bridge2.0-0:i386{a} libatspi2.0-0:i386{a} 
  libcairo-gobject2:i386{a} libcolord2:i386{a} libenchant1c2a:i386{a} 
libgail-3-0:i386{a} libgtk-3-0:i386{a} 
  libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386{b} libhunspell-1.3-0:i386{a} libjson-glib-1.0-0:i386{a} 
liblcms2-2:i386{a} libproxy1:i386{a} 
  librest-0.7-0:i386{a} libsoup-gnome2.4-1:i386{a} libsoup2.4-1:i386{a} 
libsqlite3-0:i386{ab} libudev1:i386{a} 
  libwayland-client0:i386{a} libwayland-cursor0:i386{a} libxkbcommon0:i386{a} 
libxml2:i386{ab} 
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  colord colord:i386 enchant:i386 
0 packages upgraded, 24 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
Need to get 6,456 kB of archives. After unpacking 20.6 MB will be used.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libaspell15 : Breaks: libaspell15:i386 (!= 0.60.7~20110707-3) but 
0.60.7~20110707-1.3 is to be installed.
 libaspell15:i386 : Breaks: libaspell15 (!= 0.60.7~20110707-1.3) but 
0.60.7~20110707-3 is installed.
 libsqlite3-0 : Breaks: libsqlite3-0:i386 (!= 3.8.7.4-1) but 3.8.7.1-1+deb8u1 
is to be installed.
 libsqlite3-0:i386 : Breaks: libsqlite3-0 (!= 3.8.7.1-1+deb8u1) but 3.8.7.4-1 
is installed.
 libxml2 : Breaks: libxml2:i386 (!= 2.9.2+dfsg1-3) but 2.9.1+dfsg1-5+deb8u2 is 
to be installed.
 libxml2:i386 : Breaks: libxml2 (!= 2.9.1+dfsg1-5+deb8u2) but 2.9.2+dfsg1-3 is 
installed.
 libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 : Depends: libgtkhtml-4.0-common:i386 (= 4.8.5-1) which 
is a virtual package.
The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

  Keep the following packages at their current version:
1)  libaspell15:i386 [Not Installed]   
2)  libenchant1c2a:i386 [Not Installed]
3)  libgail-3-0:i386 [Not Installed]   
4)  libgtk-3-0:i386 [Not Installed]
5)  libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 [Not Installed]  
6)  librest-0.7-0:i386 [Not Installed] 
7)  libsoup-gnome2.4-1:i386 [Not Installed]
8)  libsoup2.4-1:i386 [Not Installed]  
9)  libsqlite3-0:i386 [Not Installed]  
10) libxml2:i386 [Not Installed]   



Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q
Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies.
Abort.

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] Multiarch issues

[Nate Bargmann]

Enabling the backports repository seems to be even worse as aptitude now
wants to remove all sorts of things.  Here is what I get:

$ sudo aptitude install libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  at-spi2-core{a} glib-networking:i386{a} libaspell15:i386{ab} 
libatk-bridge2.0-0:i386{a} libatspi2.0-0:i386{a}
  libcairo-gobject2:i386{a} libcolord2:i386{a} libenchant1c2a:i386{a} 
libgail-3-0:i386{a} libgtk-3-0:i386{a}
  libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386{b} libhunspell-1.3-0:i386{a} libjson-glib-1.0-0:i386{a} 
liblcms2-2:i386{a} libproxy1:i386{a}
  librest-0.7-0:i386{a} libsoup-gnome2.4-1:i386{a} libsoup2.4-1:i386{a} 
libsqlite3-0:i386{ab} libudev1:i386{a}
  libwayland-client0:i386{a} libwayland-cursor0:i386{a} libxkbcommon0:i386{a} 
libxml2:i386{ab}

The following packages will be upgraded:
  libudev1
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  colord colord:i386 enchant:i386
1 packages upgraded, 24 newly installed, 0 to remove and 170 not upgraded.
Need to get 6,621 kB of archives. After unpacking 20.8 MB will be used.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libaspell15 : Breaks: libaspell15:i386 (!= 0.60.7~20110707-3) but 
0.60.7~20110707-1.3 is to be installed.
 libaspell15:i386 : Breaks: libaspell15 (!= 0.60.7~20110707-1.3) but 
0.60.7~20110707-3 is installed.
 udev : Depends: libudev1 (= 215-17+deb8u4) but 230-7~bpo8+2 is to be installed.
 libsqlite3-0 : Breaks: libsqlite3-0:i386 (!= 3.8.7.4-1) but 3.8.7.1-1+deb8u1 
is to be installed.
 libsqlite3-0:i386 : Breaks: libsqlite3-0 (!= 3.8.7.1-1+deb8u1) but 3.8.7.4-1 
is installed.
 libxml2 : Breaks: libxml2:i386 (!= 2.9.2+dfsg1-3) but 2.9.1+dfsg1-5+deb8u2 is 
to be installed.
 libxml2:i386 : Breaks: libxml2 (!= 2.9.1+dfsg1-5+deb8u2) but 2.9.2+dfsg1-3 is 
installed.
 libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 : Depends: libgtkhtml-4.0-common:i386 (= 4.8.5-1) which 
is a virtual package.
The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

  Remove the following packages:   
1)  fuse   
2)  gvfs   
3)  gvfs-daemons   
4)  initramfs-tools
5)  libsane
6)  linux-image-3.16.0-4-amd64 
7)  linux-image-amd64  
8)  paprefs
9)  pulseaudio 
10) pulseaudio-module-gconf
11) pulseaudio-module-x11  
12) pulseaudio-module-zeroconf 
13) sane-utils 
14) sshfs  
15) udev   
16) udisks2
17) xsane  
18) xserver-xorg   
19) xserver-xorg-core  
20) xserver-xorg-input-evdev   
21) xserver-xorg-input-mouse   
22) xserver-xorg-video-intel   

  Keep the following packages at their current version:
23) libaspell15:i386 [Not Installed]   
24) libenchant1c2a:i386 [Not Installed]
25) libgail-3-0:i386 [Not Installed]   
26) libgtk-3-0:i386 [Not Installed]
27) libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 [Not Installed]  
28) librest-0.7-0:i386 [Not Installed] 
29) libsoup-gnome2.4-1:i386 [Not Installed]
30) libsoup2.4-1:i386 [Not Installed]  
31) libsqlite3-0:i386 [Not Installed]  
32) libxml2:i386 [Not Installed]   



Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q
Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies.
Abort.


That is quite a lot longer list than before enabling the backports main
repository.

- Nate

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Re: [DNG] Multiarch issues

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2016 03 Aug 03:28 -0500, KatolaZ wrote:

> I currently have both amd64 and i386 in multiarch, but don't have
> libgtkhtml installed, so I haven't had the opportunity to replicate
> your issue. Do you have jessie-updates and Debian Jessie backports in
> your sources.list?

I do have jessie-updates:

deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main contrib non-free

but not backports.  Is this the correct stanza?

# deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-backports main contrib 
non-free

It may be that I'd eliminate all but the main repository in the
backports stanza.

- Nate

-- 

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Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org):

> Good post Steve :^) I was reading the GAO report already back in May,
> very interesting. Scaringly enough all rethoric goes bashing what's
> old, a myopic prerogative of the startup-innovation-hype.  Very
> surprising to see there is no critical voice in the debate.

This will be a point orthogonal to Steve's about maintaining code
instead of throwing it away and rewriting it without good reason 
(CADT-style):

My wife Deirdre, the real programmer in the family, has long observed
that 'Java is COBOL 2.0.'  Which is, to be sure, mildly derisive but
also has a serious point at its core:  Both COBOL and Java have as 
their focus the handling of 'business logic' applications, and in
particular batch processing, as is massively important to the financial
industry.  And, if you look past all the language advocacy discussions,
that is one of the places where it's been used quite a bit, for pretty
much exactly the same purposes COBOL was.

This has nothing to do with elegance, good language design, performance,
code quality, the language being crippling / dehumanising / mind-numbing
to coders, whether Scheme / Common LISP, SmallTalk, Haskell, or
something else might have made a better choice, or any of the other
concerns that you or I would want to talk about.  

J2EE also made a point of having an enterprise-focussed library to solve
common problems for that application space -early-, which is a big
reason why it grabbed that niche before anything better could have a
chance.  Which I'd speculate also probably happened with COBOL back in
dinosaur days.

So, the code in question tends to turn out to be mediocre at best with a
mediocre-at-best toolset, but OTOH at least it generally ends up being
maintainable and mostly works without blowing up the world even when
relying on factory coding shops.

-- 
Cheers, Grossman's Law:  "In time of crisis, people do not rise to
Rick Moen   the occasion.  They fall to the level of their training."
r...@linuxmafia.com  http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#grossman
McQ! (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:51:32PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> 
> COBOL has fixed point base 10 operations, which is mandatory for
> financial computation. C hasn't. I've heared that, in the US at least,
> floating point operations are illegal in the finance area. The only other
> language I know which also features this kind of operations is guess
> which... Ada.
> 
> I remember, though, I have noticed that the GCC C compiler (or maybe
> C++)  can be built with fixed point operations, but I'm afraid it implies
> some extension of the language.

Floating-point just isn't accurate enough.  Multiple-precision scaled 
fixed-point would work, even if it's binary.

Early versions of gnucash used floating-point and I reported it as a 
bug.  They now use decimal numbers in XML for currency amounts.  I 
don't know what they use internally, nor wat they'll use when they 
switch gnucash to a real database instead of an XML file.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Didier Kryn]

Le 03/08/2016 15:25, Go Linux a écrit :

On Wed, 8/3/16, aitor_czr  wrote:

  Subject: Re: [DNG] IRC Channel
  To: "KatolaZ" , "dng" 
  Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016, 7:59 AM
   

Aitor, according to the screenshot, you are connected to "DALnet",
which is the wrong network. You should connect to to the freenode
network:

host: irc.freenode.org
port: 6667 (or  if you want to use SSL - recommended)

then once you are in, join the channel "#devuan" and/or
#debianfork.

Since you said you are an IRC novice, I guess you might find this
tutorial useful:

   http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html



My2Cents

KatolaZ

Thanks for the link :)

   Aitor.




@aitor - All the info needed is also on the devuan website at:

https://devuan.org/os/community#internet-relay-chat

Hope to see you there soon

@KatolaZ - Did not know about using port  so I got to learn something too!  
Now I need to figure out where to make that setting . . . there are so many 
things I don;t know . . .


Always learn as well, but I'm rather like Aitor; I always regarded 
IRC like something mysterious. No idea still how to connect and what 
happens then. I'll read this tutorial when I can find some time :-)


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Multiarch issues

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 08:30:19PM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:26:51 +0100
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 07:20:58AM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> >
> > > Not sure about this, but is it possible that you can't have two
> > > architectures of the same package installed?
> > >   
> > 
> > Multiarch exists primarily to allow the installation of the same
> > package for different architectures :)
> >
> 
> 
> Hi KatolaZ,
> 
> I don't know if we understand each other: there's a difference between
> having the same i386 package installed on two architectures (machines)
> - or having two versions (e.g. i386 and amd64) of a package installed in
> parallel on the same machine (resp. architecture). Perhaps I didn't
> express myself clearly - I questioned the latter: if it is possible to 
> 
> $ apt-get install libgtkhtml:i386 libgtkhtml:amd64
> 
> because I had a similar issue some time ago, probably as well with one
> of the libgtkhtmls (or perhaps it was wkhtmltopdf with libqtwebkit?).
> 

Hi Florian,

I think I have a rough idea of what mutliarch is, as I actually use it
daily, and I have never had problems with it :) I have an amd64 devuan
installation, with plenty of :i386 libraries, most of them needed by
applications pre-compiled for i386 (one of these is skype,
unfortunatel, the only non-free package I have to use, besides
firmware-iwlwifi).

Just to make an example:

katolaz@akela:~$ dpkg -l | grep zlib  | cut -d " " -f 1-3
ii  zlib1g:amd64
ii  zlib1g:i386
ii  zlib1g-dev:amd64
katolaz@akela:~$

That's why I guessed that your problem with the installation of
libgtkhtml might be related with a known glitch in amprolla, which
causes some upgdates to be erroneously disregarded. For the time
being, your problem might (or might not) possibly be solved by adding
the jessie-backports repository from Debian in your sources.list,
which has worked for me in resolving other issues with mismatching
package versions.

My2Cents

KatolaZ


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[DNG] Fwd: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 09:12:02 +
Resent-From: Martin Pitt 
Resent-To: debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: debian-de...@lists.debian.org, w...@debian.org
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:09:32 +0200
From: Martin Pitt 
Reply-To: Martin Pitt , 832...@bugs.debian.org
To: Debian BTS Submit 
CC: Steve Langasek , Allison Ryan Lortie 

Package: wnpp

Neither Steve nor I still have any interest in maintaining
systemd-shim. Debian's default init system is systemd, Ubuntu supports
nothing else any more (and does not even have systemd-shim any more),
upstart is gone from both Debian and Ubuntu, so the only use case for
it right now is running Debian with SysVinit (in particular, on
non-Linux flavors).

So this should be picked up by someone who is interested in keeping SysV
init
support for desktops (i. e. which need logind or timedatectl) alive in
Debian.
There are currently no release-critical bugs and the package is working
reasonably well for main use cases, but there *are* a few bugs worth looking
into.

The upstream branch is currently at
.
Allison isn't interested any more in this either, so I suggest that
the upstream repo gets mothballed and systemd-shim just becomes a
Debian-native package (I'm not aware of any other distro using it
anyway).

Note that systemd-shim currently uses cgmanager, which by itself is
obsolete [1].

Package description:

  Description: shim for systemd
   This package emulates the systemd function that are required to run
   the systemd helpers without using the init service


Martin

[1] https://s3hh.wordpress.com/2016/06/18/whither-cgmanager/
-- 
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Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)



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Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Miles Fidelman]

Yup - COBOL is a really good niche market for programmers.


On 8/3/16 3:50 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:

Steve Litt  wrote:


At first I almost vomited when reading this sentence:


The Social Security Administration, for instance, has more than 60
million lines of Cobol,


My first thought: Cobol? Are you kidding? I thought I'd gotten done
with that in 1985!

And then a part of my mind said "sysvinit? Are you kidding? Etc.

Indeed, old doesn't equal broken. As an analogy, some of my best tools are the 
old ones - from when they were properly made of real metal etc.
The real problem, as you point out, is that it's getting harder to maintain the "old stuff" for the simple 
reason that the people that really understood it are retiring and the youngsters don't want to know. I strongly suspect 
a big part of the latter is a combination of the "teaching machine" and peer pressure - these "dead 
languages" just aren't "sexy".

But from what I've read from time to time, there's actually a good living to be 
made if you are happy to be one of those unseen hermits happy to bash away 
maintaining old code in places like banks.
The banks - they have enormous amounts of "legacy" code which isn't broken and 
so isn't in need of fixing. Plus, the risks to them of replacing it is quite high.

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Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 02:41:29PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Politics of IT in the U.S. government
> 
> http://www.itworld.com/article/3103585/government-it/politics-blamed-for-feds-reliance-on-old-it.html
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> In the preceding article, put away all the politics: That's not the
> subject of my email.
> 
> At first I almost vomited when reading this sentence:
> 
> 
> The Social Security Administration, for instance, has more than 60
> million lines of Cobol,
> 
> 
> My first thought: Cobol? Are you kidding? I thought I'd gotten done
> with that in 1985!

And last I heard, they were processing everything on magnetic tapes.
It might be better for them to use a database on redundant, backed-up 
disk drives.  Perhaps that's the motive for a rewrite, rather than it 
all being COBOL.

Or maybe they've already done that?  It eas a while ago last I heard.  
For all I know, they are emulating tapes on disk drives now.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Politics of IT in the U.S. government

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

> At first I almost vomited when reading this sentence:
> 
> 
> The Social Security Administration, for instance, has more than 60
> million lines of Cobol,
> 
> 
> My first thought: Cobol? Are you kidding? I thought I'd gotten done
> with that in 1985!
> 
> And then a part of my mind said "sysvinit? Are you kidding? Etc.

Indeed, old doesn't equal broken. As an analogy, some of my best tools are the 
old ones - from when they were properly made of real metal etc.
The real problem, as you point out, is that it's getting harder to maintain the 
"old stuff" for the simple reason that the people that really understood it are 
retiring and the youngsters don't want to know. I strongly suspect a big part 
of the latter is a combination of the "teaching machine" and peer pressure - 
these "dead languages" just aren't "sexy".

But from what I've read from time to time, there's actually a good living to be 
made if you are happy to be one of those unseen hermits happy to bash away 
maintaining old code in places like banks.
The banks - they have enormous amounts of "legacy" code which isn't broken and 
so isn't in need of fixing. Plus, the risks to them of replacing it is quite 
high.

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Re: [DNG] Oh, how I hate systemd

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rowland Penny  (by way of Rowland Penny 
) writes:
> So, a user was complaining over on the Samba mailing list, that the
> Samba wiki page about creating a new AD DC wasn't much use with fedora.
>
> I set up fedora 24 and tried to give it a fixed ip (part of which was
> removing networkmanager), set everything up and rebooted, I then found
> I couldn't connect to the network, checks found that /etc/resolv.conf
> had disappeared.
>
> When I tried to create a new one, I couldn't, it wouldn't let me!!
>
> A quick trawl of the internet led to an interesting fact, systemd now
> mounts /etc read-only and if /etc/resolv.conf doesn't exist, systemd
> creates a dangling symlink. 
>
> You couldn't make this up, why O why make /etc read only ?

My guess would be: Because people aren't supposed to change the 'legacy
configuration' directly but use the proper systemd commands instead. One
could also assume that this is to protect systemd from changes it
couldn't parse.
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Re: [DNG] Help with ALSA, Pulseaudio and Mumble on Devuan

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:09:11AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> If you need Pulse for Skype, you can use apulse instead.
> 

It would be great to have apulse packaged in Ascii...

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Help with ALSA, Pulseaudio and Mumble on Devuan

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 05:56:38 -0500
hal  wrote:


> Pics 4, 5 and 6 show the Mumble configuration. I don't have "oss"
> anything installed, so not sure why that's showing up. Anyone know
> which of these I should pick? ALSA or Pulse?  

Unless I have a very specific reason for having Pulse on a computer, I
uninstall Pulse and let either ALSA or OSS do all the work. To me,
Pulse is just a whole nother set of mutes and variables to confuse the
matter.

If you need Pulse for Skype, you can use apulse instead.

> Same for the output
> device.  After much messing around, I think I have it working with
> ALSA, so does that mean I should remove all references to Pulseaudio?

I usually de-install all of Pulseaudio.

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] Help with ALSA, Pulseaudio and Mumble on Devuan

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

On 03-08-16 12:56, hal wrote:

Hi all,
I've been trying to get Mumble working on my Devuan system for months. I'm a 
little confused as I seem to have 3 sound cards in my computer (1.png at link 
below). I'm not sure where alsamixer is getting all these because
I'm only runinng off the on-board audio plugins. "Default" in alsamixer shows 
pulseaudio which seems weird.  cards 0 and 1 are Intel (assuming the on-board audio 
jacks) and Nvidia. Not sure why Nvidia shows up here as I
have an Nvidia card, but there are no audio jacks on it. Again, weird.
On my system a nVidia soundcard shows up when i have a HDMI monitor 
attached.
When you for one reason or another are stuck with pulseaudio consider 
installing Pulseaudio Volume Control.


Grtz.

Nick

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Re: [DNG] Oh, how I hate systemd

[dev]

On 08/03/2016 06:49 AM, Rowland Penny (by way of Rowland Penny 
) wrote:

You couldn't make this up, why O why make /etc read only ?



For server hardening, sometimes partitions are mounted r/o or with 
special flags (eg: noexec, nosuid) in order to make it more difficult 
for an attacker to manipulate filesystem objects.


That said, the Fedora incident you mention was likely another "flat 
tire" situation rather than anything done in the interest of security.


As far as I know, Fedora has always been an incubator of the bizzare and 
unnatural. Trying to pin down any issues on that platform rarely nets 
any advantage for anything more than sadistic amusement.


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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Stephanie Daugherty]

Ugh, the formatting seems to be fucked in
http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html
Sorry about that, I'll have to look into that today.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:59 AM aitor_czr  wrote:

>
> Hi Katolaz,
>
> On 08/03/2016 02:00 PM, KatolaZ 
>  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:25:21AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote:
>
> > > Hi golinux,
>
> > > On 08/03/2016 10:27 AM, Go Linux   
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>>  >Hi all,> >>>  >  I recently wrote a message in the IRC Channel 
> > >>> #devuan, but> >>>  it doesn't appear.> >>>  >  Am i doing something 
> > >>> wrong..., or something well?> >>>  >Aitor.
>
> > >> >  What is 'recently'?  Have 
> > >you checked to see if it's in the botbot logs or if you posted during and 
> > >outage?> >> >golinux
>
> > > I just sent another one at 11:20 h. in spain.> > 
> > > http://gnuinos.org/Screenshot%20-%2008032016%20-%2011:18:29%20AM.png> > 
> > > I'm a novice in the IRC :(>
>
> Aitor, according to the screenshot, you are connected to "DALnet",
> which is the wrong network. You should connect to to the freenode
> network:
>
> host: irc.freenode.org
> port: 6667 (or  if you want to use SSL - recommended)
>
> then once you are in, join the channel "#devuan" and/or
> #debianfork.
>
> Since you said you are an IRC novice, I guess you might find this
> tutorial useful:
>
>   http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html
>
>
> My2Cents
>
> KatolaZ
>
>
> Thanks for the link :)
>
>
>   Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Go Linux]

On Wed, 8/3/16, aitor_czr  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] IRC Channel
 To: "KatolaZ" , "dng" 
 Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016, 7:59 AM
  
>> Aitor, according to the screenshot, you are connected to "DALnet",
>> which is the wrong network. You should connect to to the freenode
>> network:
>>
>> host: irc.freenode.org
>> port: 6667 (or  if you want to use SSL - recommended)
>>
>> then once you are in, join the channel "#devuan" and/or
>> #debianfork.
>>
>> Since you said you are an IRC novice, I guess you might find this
>> tutorial useful:
>>
>>   http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html
>>
>>
> My2Cents
>>>
>> KatolaZ
>
> Thanks for the link :)
> 
>   Aitor.
> 



@aitor - All the info needed is also on the devuan website at:

https://devuan.org/os/community#internet-relay-chat

Hope to see you there soon

@KatolaZ - Did not know about using port  so I got to learn something too!  
Now I need to figure out where to make that setting . . . there are so many 
things I don;t know . . .

golinux

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Re: [DNG] Help with ALSA, Pulseaudio and Mumble on Devuan

[fsmithred]

On 08/03/2016 06:56 AM, hal wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been trying to get Mumble working on my Devuan system for months. I'm a 
> little confused as I seem to have 3 sound cards in my computer (1.png at link 
> below). I'm not sure where alsamixer is getting all these because
> I'm only runinng off the on-board audio plugins. "Default" in alsamixer shows 
> pulseaudio which seems weird.  cards 0 and 1 are Intel (assuming the on-board 
> audio jacks) and Nvidia. Not sure why Nvidia shows up here as I
> have an Nvidia card, but there are no audio jacks on it. Again, weird.
> 

If you're using an Intel Haswell processor, there's an audio interface
built into the chip. It can be deactivated in the computer's setup (bios
or uefi). That might help. I had to do that on one computer to get the usb
audio interface to be the first sound card. Setting it to first in the
alsa config file (in /etc/modprobe.d, I think) wasn't enough.

I've got mumble working here on Refracta (Devuan Jessie) without
pulseaudio. My solution for pulse is either don't install it, or remove it
if it comes installed. I've never been able to figure it out.

OSS shows up in the mumble configuration, even though I don't have it
instlaled. I installed mumble a few months ago, so I don't remember any
details, but I do remember it was pretty easy.

-fsr


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[DNG] Oh, how I hate systemd

[Rowland Penny]

So, a user was complaining over on the Samba mailing list, that the
Samba wiki page about creating a new AD DC wasn't much use with fedora.

I set up fedora 24 and tried to give it a fixed ip (part of which was
removing networkmanager), set everything up and rebooted, I then found
I couldn't connect to the network, checks found that /etc/resolv.conf
had disappeared.

When I tried to create a new one, I couldn't, it wouldn't let me!!

A quick trawl of the internet led to an interesting fact, systemd now
mounts /etc read-only and if /etc/resolv.conf doesn't exist, systemd
creates a dangling symlink. 

You couldn't make this up, why O why make /etc read only ?

Rowland 
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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[aitor_czr]

Hi Katolaz,

On 08/03/2016 02:00 PM, KatolaZ  wrote:

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:25:21AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote:

>
>Hi golinux,
>
>On 08/03/2016 10:27 AM, Go Linux  wrote:

> >>>  >Hi all,
> >>>  >  I recently wrote a message in the IRC Channel #devuan, but
> >>>  it doesn't appear.
> >>>  >  Am i doing something wrong..., or something well?
> >>>  >Aitor.

> >
> >  What is 'recently'?  Have you checked to see if it's in the botbot logs or 
if you posted during and outage?
> >
> >golinux

>
>I just sent another one at 11:20 h. in spain.
>
>http://gnuinos.org/Screenshot%20-%2008032016%20-%2011:18:29%20AM.png
>
>I'm a novice in the IRC:(
>

Aitor, according to the screenshot, you are connected to "DALnet",
which is the wrong network. You should connect to to the freenode
network:

host: irc.freenode.org
port: 6667 (or  if you want to use SSL - recommended)

then once you are in, join the channel "#devuan" and/or
#debianfork.

Since you said you are an IRC novice, I guess you might find this
tutorial useful:

   http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html


My2Cents

KatolaZ


Thanks for the link :)

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Go Linux <goli...@yahoo.com>

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> host: irc.freenode.org
> port: 6667 (or  if you want to use SSL - recommended)
> 
> then once you are in, join the channel "#devuan" and/or
> #debianfork.
> 
> Since you said you are an IRC novice, I guess you might find this
> tutorial useful:
> 
>   http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html

oh nevermind that was it

the glitch I referred to occurred on our own server, which we use for
other projects, but #devuan is on freenode so I god confused

Aitor: I hope you work it out!

ciao


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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:

>Assuming you are in #devuan on freenode, I don't see any current settings
>on the channel that would be likely to stop you from speaking there.

there was a glitch on the network of our IRC server yesterday, maybe
that's what was it? I got disconnected (broken pipe) and reconnected

ciao

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Re: [DNG] IRC Channel

[Stephanie Daugherty]

Assuming you are in #devuan on freenode, I don't see any current settings
on the channel that would be likely to stop you from speaking there.

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 7:26 PM aitor_czr  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I recently wrote a message in the IRC Channel #devuan, but it doesn't
> appear.
>
> Am i doing something wrong..., or something well?
>
>Aitor.
>
>
>
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[DNG] Help with ALSA, Pulseaudio and Mumble on Devuan

[hal]

Hi all,
I've been trying to get Mumble working on my Devuan system for months. I'm a 
little confused as I seem to have 3 sound cards in my computer (1.png at link 
below). I'm not sure where alsamixer is getting all these because
I'm only runinng off the on-board audio plugins. "Default" in alsamixer shows 
pulseaudio which seems weird.  cards 0 and 1 are Intel (assuming the on-board 
audio jacks) and Nvidia. Not sure why Nvidia shows up here as I
have an Nvidia card, but there are no audio jacks on it. Again, weird.

I come from a Ubuntu background and have never seen anything other than the 
Intel card show up in alsamixer so wondering...

Pics 4, 5 and 6 show the Mumble configuration. I don't have "oss" anything 
installed, so not sure why that's showing up. Anyone know which of these I 
should pick? ALSA or Pulse?  Same for the output device.  After much
messing around, I think I have it working with ALSA, so does that mean I should 
remove all references to Pulseaudio?

It seems like things used to be simple with ALSA until Pulse came around with 
the last couple Ubuntu LTS releases. The configuration for Pulse has always 
seemed bizzare to me (system.pa, default.pa, client.conf,
daemon.conf.. sheesh).

Here are the screenshots mentioned above:
http://postimg.org/gallery/22qgz43g8/

Thanks for any assistance.

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Re: [DNG] The systemd OS

[hal]

Go Linux wrote on 08/02/2016 03:58 PM:

> 
> It was perfectly obvious the direction things were heading.  Still pisses me 
> off . . .
> 

Notice the cast of characters: oracle, redhat, ibm, etc, etc.
I wonder why the need for  all the branding with a talking head video?


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[DNG] Go Linux <goli...@yahoo.com>

[aitor_czr]

Hi golinux,

On 08/03/2016 10:27 AM, Go Linux  wrote:
>  
>Hi all,
>  
>  I recently wrote a message in the IRC Channel #devuan, but

>  it doesn't appear.
>  
>  Am i doing something wrong..., or something well?
>  
>Aitor.


  
  What is 'recently'?  Have you checked to see if it's in the botbot logs or if you posted during and outage?


golinux


I just sent another one at 11:20 h. in spain.

http://gnuinos.org/Screenshot%20-%2008032016%20-%2011:18:29%20AM.png

I'm a novice in the IRC :(

  Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] Multiarch issues

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 07:20:58AM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:

[cut]

> > When I look at the Debian Web package for the Jessie package of
> > libgtkhtml-4.0-common, it is shown as architecture 'all'.  Even trying
> > to install the amd64 (default for my system) doesn't help.
> > 
> > Is this a Debian bug?
> > 
> > - Nate
> 
> 
> Hi Nate,
> 
> I'd try to track down the conflict by installing the 4 "not going to be
> installed" packages individually and manually (i.e. not as dependency)
> and repeat this with their "not going to be installed ancestors" in the
> dependency chain, until apt reveals the underlying conflict.
> 
> Not sure about this, but is it possible that you can't have two
> architectures of the same package installed?
> 

Multiarch exists primarily to allow the installation of the same
package for different architectures :)

I currently have both amd64 and i386 in multiarch, but don't have
libgtkhtml installed, so I haven't had the opportunity to replicate
your issue. Do you have jessie-updates and Debian Jessie backports in
your sources.list?

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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