Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Steve Litt 
On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:37:53 +0800
Brad Campbell  wrote:

> On 24/08/16 11:13, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
> > Clarke Sideroad  wrote:
> >  
> >> I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
> >> bus1 coming along to replace that.
> >> https://github.com/bus1/bus1
> >> http://www.bus1.org/
> >>
> >> Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of
> >> systemd
> >>
> >> Clarke  
> >
> >
> > DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:
> >
> > ===
> > COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
> > Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
> > AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
> > David Herrmann 
> > Tom Gundersen 
> > ===
> >
> > And from Wikipedia's systemd page:
> >
> > ===
> > Original author(s)  
> > Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
> > Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
> > ===
> >
> > These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
> > bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
> > plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.  
> 
> I'm not worried. Mantra from get-go has been "Don't break userspace".
> If there is a valid use-case for a feature there will be plenty of 
> opposition to it's removal.

[snip]

> If bus1 really has technical merit, can demonstrate it solves real 
> problems and has all its shortcomings addressed there is no reason it 
> shouldn't be integrated into the kernel. They can't then just go and 
> remove netlink to spite non-systemd users. It has an existing
> userspace and other use cases.

Assuming by "they" you mean the Lennart and the Redhats, they already
have an established pattern and practice of breaking user space. If you
mean the kernel developers, they won't be the ones breaking userspace,
but a kernel-included bus1 will act very much like the firmware chips
they put into toner cartridges just so you won't buy competing toner.

We're way past the point of thinking the world is a technocracy.

Edbarx said it best: "attempting to remove systemd from SID is more
like attempting to remove the DNA from living cells expecting them not
to die."

That sounds very much like breaking userspace to me.

SteveT

Steve Litt
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Re: [DNG] Which license for UMENU2?

2016-08-23 Thread Steve Litt 
On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 01:31:18 -0400 (EDT)
Peter Olson  wrote:

> > On August 24, 2016 at 1:20 AM Steve Litt
> >  wrote:  
> 
>  [...]
> 
> > A couple notes: The above Expat URL says Expat license is GPL
> > compatible. I don't like GPLv3 because it's too complicated and
> > IMHO a little too restrictive. Expat's similar to some MIT and BSD
> > licenses and the X11 license.  
> 
> What complication don't you like about GPLv3+ ?

I just briefly reread it, and didn't see an glaring problems.
However, I'd need to study it for a week to understand it.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Which license for UMENU2?

2016-08-23 Thread Peter Olson 
> On August 24, 2016 at 1:20 AM Steve Litt  wrote:

 [...]

> A couple notes: The above Expat URL says Expat license is GPL
> compatible. I don't like GPLv3 because it's too complicated and IMHO a
> little too restrictive. Expat's similar to some MIT and BSD licenses
> and the X11 license.

What complication don't you like about GPLv3+ ?

> Any opinions on which to choose?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SteveT

Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Brad Campbell 

On 24/08/16 11:13, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
Clarke Sideroad  wrote:


I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
bus1 coming along to replace that.
https://github.com/bus1/bus1
http://www.bus1.org/

Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of systemd

Clarke



DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:

===
COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
David Herrmann 
Tom Gundersen 
===

And from Wikipedia's systemd page:

===
Original author(s)  
Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
===

These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.


I'm not worried. Mantra from get-go has been "Don't break userspace". If 
there is a valid use-case for a feature there will be plenty of 
opposition to it's removal.



What is the best way of getting the word out?


I wouldn't worry. You are not giving anyone involved in kernel 
development enough credit if you honestly believe this will fly under 
the radar and people won't notice.


Banging drums and putting forth objections based on some names and 
conjecture will simply get you roundly ridiculed and then ignored by 
those that actually matter. kdbus was not rejected on politics, it was 
rejected on technical merit quite validly by those who care. If bus1 
hasn't rectified _all_ of those objections and can demonstrate a real 
requirement then it won't get past the gate.


The mistake with kdbus was it was a shit design with the sole purpose of 
papering over existing shit design in dbus user space, and because the 
systemd folk have Greg KH on board they assumed they'd just be able to 
slip more shit into the kernel without question. People who actually 
knew better stepped up and nak'd it on technical grounds.


If bus1 really has technical merit, can demonstrate it solves real 
problems and has all its shortcomings addressed there is no reason it 
shouldn't be integrated into the kernel. They can't then just go and 
remove netlink to spite non-systemd users. It has an existing userspace 
and other use cases.



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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Steve Litt 
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
Clarke Sideroad  wrote:

> I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
> bus1 coming along to replace that.
> https://github.com/bus1/bus1
> http://www.bus1.org/
> 
> Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of systemd
> 
> Clarke


DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:

===
COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
David Herrmann 
Tom Gundersen 
===

And from Wikipedia's systemd page:

===
Original author(s)  
Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
===

These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.

What is the best way of getting the word out?

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Steve Litt 
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 23:01:20 + (UTC)
Go Linux  wrote:

> On Tue, 8/23/16, Steve Litt  wrote:

> >> I agree that relying on anything connected to udev will likely not
> >> be sustainable in the long term.  I was reminded of this just
> >> today in a private discussion I'm having with someone over at
> >> FDN . . . yes, I still hang out there to advocate for non-systemd
> >> Linux.  S/he posted this link which finally pushed them over the
> >> edge and away from the path that Debian has taken:
> >>
> >> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
> >>   
> > By the way, when did Linux OK kdbus?
> > 
> > SteveT
> >   
> 
> 
> I don't think they have.  That was Lennart's wishful thinking.
> Wasn't it around that time that Kay Sievers tried and Linus boxed him
> hard upside the head and sent him packing?  
> 
> golinux

Yes, I soon after noticed that this was from 2014, before Linus read
them the rules of the road, so then I realized this is merely an
indication of their attitude and intentions rather than an imminent
existential threat.

Lennart really is in love with himself. I thought it was just a summer
thing.

SteveT

Steve Litt
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Clarke Sideroad 
I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is bus1 
coming along to replace that.

https://github.com/bus1/bus1
http://www.bus1.org/

Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of systemd

Clarke
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Adam Borowski 
On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 06:10:12PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
> 
> By the way, when did Linux OK kdbus?

[~/linux]$ git fetch linus
remote: Counting objects: 795, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (481/481), done.
remote: Total 795 (delta 477), reused 517 (delta 311)
Receiving objects: 100% (795/795), 1.54 MiB | 660.00 KiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (477/477), done.
From git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux
   3408fef..7a1dcf6  master -> linus/master
 * [new tag] v4.8-rc3   -> v4.8-rc3
[~/linux]$ git log -i -S kdbus
[~/linux]$ git log -i --grep=kdbus

[~/linux]$

Not yet, apparently.

And he had lots of unflattering words about it in the past.  I don't follow
main LKML so I don't know how far Kay and co are from addressing Linus'
concerns, though.

-- 
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Go Linux 
On Tue, 8/23/16, Steve Litt  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 5:10 PM
 
>> On Sun, 8/21/16, Daniel Reurich  wrote:
>>
>>  Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
>>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>>  Date: Sunday, August 21, 2016, 3:08 PM
>> >>
>> >> He guys,
>> >>
>> >> I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG
>> >> list for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost
>> >> been no activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I
>> >> tested eudev on a separate partition and that seems to work quite
>> >> well. 
>> >
>> > You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and
>> > making it installable.
>> >   
>> >>
>> >> I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
>> >> to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change
>> >> is two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the
>> >> wheel IMHO. And as there has been no response from the original
>> >> vdev author, I think it's better to package eudev for Devuan and
>> >> to make it available for Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is
>> >> 3.2. 
>> >
>> > Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
>> > hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes
>> > and bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then
>> > vdev because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with
>> > udev and not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.
>> > At the end of the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally
>> > better the eudev, but still far to closely coupled with systemd to
>> > be useful in the medium to long term.
>> >
>> > With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others
>> > would pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around
>> > packaging it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's
>> > a dead project whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie
>> > of systemd-udev as a better and only option.  It's not better, and
>> > it's not the only option either.
>> >
>> > Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an
>> > option in Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any
>> > attempt to derail alternatives such as vdev - unless those
>> > alternative are demonstrably built on the same flawed design
>> > principles as systemd.
>> >
>> > Daniel.
>> > 
>>
>> 
>>
>> I agree that relying on anything connected to udev will likely not be
>> sustainable in the long term.  I was reminded of this just today in a
>> private discussion I'm having with someone over at FDN . . . yes, I
>> still hang out there to advocate for non-systemd Linux.  S/he posted
>> this link which finally pushed them over the edge and away from the
>> path that Debian has taken:
>>
>> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
>> 
> By the way, when did Linux OK kdbus?
> 
> SteveT
> 


I don't think they have.  That was Lennart's wishful thinking.   Wasn't it 
around that time that Kay Sievers tried and Linus boxed him hard upside the 
head and sent him packing?  

golinux

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Nate Bargmann 
Yup, one distribution (he signed with "Red Hat" so was presumably
speaking on their behalf) being dictatorial toward the rest.  I don't
recall that being the foundation the Linux Community was built on when I
discovered it 20 years ago.

- Nate

(Obsolete greybeard)

((But I don't have a beard.))

(((And it wouldn't be grey!)))

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] OT: true read-only disk

2016-08-23 Thread Simon Hobson 
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> To disable journal recovery mount with -oro,norecovery, ...

Just an update on how things are going.
I've been using -o ro,noatime,nodiratime,norecovery as mount options, and that 
seems to work well.

Took my disks home (been using a PC I have at work for testing disks and 
recovering stuff), and oh what fun. I have a couple of old PCs at home ...

One is an old AMD64 with nVidia chipset - which worked fine when I last used 
it. As soon as the faulty drive hits an error the machine freezes. If I already 
have another login, I can see that whatever process was reading the disk is now 
in uninterruptible sleep and anything else that now attempts to do a disk 
access does the same. Only recovery is hard power off - ouch. So scratch that. 
And for good measure, I left it powered on with just the good disk attached and 
booted from it - after a while it comes up with something to do with a watchdog 
timeout with a CPU locked up, and then freezes.

Dragged out another old PC, what was for it's day a fairly high spec HP 
workstation which worked fine when I blagged it from work (it was being 
scrapped). Plugged it in, it powered on ... then off ... then on ... then off. 
"Oh bother" (or words to that general effect) were uttered.

So I fired up a VM on my laptop. Using firewire* didn't work - the disk just 
didn't show up, so USB2 it is then. Only one of my caddies supports >2G drives, 
so I had to use a virtual disk on the laptop, recover files to that, swap 
disks, copy them off to the new one, swap disks and recover a bit more ... Got 
a fair bit done over the weekend.
But - I did find that this faulty Seagate drive did seem to work much better in 
the USB caddy than it did on SATA in the PC at work. And so it's been, it's sat 
on the workbench and recovering files quite well - just an occasional error, 
and so far only one lockup today.

So far I've recovered around 1/3 of the recordings - way way more than I ever 
expected. If it carries on like this, it looks like I'll get most of them back.

Perhaps it is worth trying to find the money for enough disk space for a backup 
in future :-/



* I'd choose FireWire 800, or even FireWire 400, over USB2 any day for 
performance.

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

2016-08-23 Thread Go Linux 
On Sun, 8/21/16, Daniel Reurich  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Sunday, August 21, 2016, 3:08 PM
>>
>> He guys,
>>
>> I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG list
>> for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost been no
>> activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I tested eudev on
>> a separate partition and that seems to work quite well.
> 
> You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and making
> it installable.
> 
>>
>> I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
>> to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change is
>> two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the wheel IMHO.
>> And as there has been no response from the original vdev author, I think
>> it's better to package eudev for Devuan and to make it available for
>> Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is 3.2.
> 
> Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
> hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes and
> bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then vdev
> because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with udev and
> not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.  At the end of
> the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally better the eudev, but
> still far to closely coupled with systemd to be useful in the medium to
> long term.
> 
> With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others would
> pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around packaging
> it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's a dead project
> whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie of systemd-udev as a
> better and only option.  It's not better, and it's not the only option
> either.
> 
> Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an option in
> Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any attempt to derail
> alternatives such as vdev - unless those alternative are demonstrably
> built on the same flawed design principles as systemd.
> 
> Daniel.
>



I agree that relying on anything connected to udev will likely not be 
sustainable in the long term.  I was reminded of this just today in a private 
discussion I'm having with someone over at FDN . . . yes, I still hang out 
there to advocate for non-systemd Linux.  S/he posted this link which finally 
pushed them over the edge and away from the path that Debian has taken:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html

I remember that from the time it was written and heated discussions were 
swirling on FDN and debian-user.  Let it be a reminder to all of you also.

Now that I finally have qemu up and running (thanks to fsmithred), I'll be 
happy to test any vdev isos from aitor and hope that many of you will do the 
same.  It's time to buckle down and get serious . . . 

golinux 
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Re: [DNG] Distrowatch Devuan poll do-over

2016-08-23 Thread Didier Kryn 

Le 23/08/2016 09:02, KatolaZ a écrit :

I wouldn't be too much concerned about Internet polls. In particular,
a scientifically sound poll should ask a single question at a time,
and not mix four questions like in this case:

- Have you tried Devuan?
- If not, do you plan to try it in the future?
- If yes, do you think it is ready to use?
- If it is not ready to use, how much work do you think is needed?


It doesn't respond to the following question: how many didn't 
answer the poll because they just don't care and they feel satisfied 
with Systemd or Windows?


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Mirroring Devuan

2016-08-23 Thread aitor_czr 


Hi all,

On 07/21/2016 12:35 PM, aitor_czr wrote:

Origin: Devuan
Label: Devuan Jessie packages
Codename: jessie
Architectures: i386 amd64 armhf source
Components: main
UDebComponentes: main
Description: Additional packages for Devuan
DebIndices: Packages Release . .gz
UDebIndices: Packages Release . .gz
DscIndices: Sources Release .gz .bz2
Contents: . .gz .bz2
#SignWith: yes 


There is a typo here: use *UDebComponents* main, instead of 
*UDebComponentes*


Cheers,

  Aitor.


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