Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> > Why in the world would you need Gnome?  
> 
> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
> unexperienced and normal people.
> 
> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more),
> use Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.
> 
> 3. Why not?

The following points concern Gnome3. I had nothing against Gnome2, but
it's not available anymore.

a) Gnome is a pig: A serious resource consumer.

b) Gnome is tightly meshed with systemd. Even if somebody out there has
   published a secret incantation to get it to work without systemd,
   that incantation is unlikely to stay functional very long. In fact,
   Redhat and Poettering have a demonstrated motive for Gnome not to
   work without systemd.

c) Gnome may (or may not) be "intuitive" to illogically thinking
   people, but with its "let me guess what you want and present it to
   you" way of working, it consistently gets in the way of logical
   people. And more people are logical than not. Give them a well
   thought out, static hierchical menu system, and they'll know what to
   do.

d) Gnome is a mesh of promiscuously communicating parts, with all the
   feedback loops you'd expect, such that if one part malfunctions,
   various hard to diagnose problems will appear in other parts.

e) Some of your hundreds of users will tweak their Gnome in various
   ways, leading to maintenance headaches. Of course, this is true of
   other WMDEs, but it's easier to do with Gnome, and with its manifold
   higher number of knobs and levers, harder to put it back into
   functionality.


SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:56:13 +0200
"J. Fahrner"  wrote:

> I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they
> try to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to
> offer a Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for
> Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have
> to live with systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you
> have to use Windows. But don't cry.

Couldn't have said it better myself. We all have priorities, and some
priority sets aren't conducive to Devuan.
 
SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

Stick with Debian, become an expert on systemctl and journalctl, and
don't come crying to me.
 
SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:19:02 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
> 
> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:

> Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory,


>> I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to
>> Gnome. XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior?

I think Unity would provide the most Gnome like experience (assuming
you mean Gnome3). Xfce enables you to have multiple panels, which I
think you can use to simulate the panels and drawers in Gnome2.

Am I reading correctly here that you're prioritizing your selection on
the *theme*? How much stability and intuitiveness are you willing to
sacrifice for theme? Xfce is OK, but from my perspective it's slowly
sidling up to systemd, and may one day be unuseable without systemd.

That said, Xfce is currently a good candidate assuming your computer
has the horsepower to run it, and if your computer could run Gnome3, it
certainly can run Xfce.


SteveT

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Re: [DNG] GNU/Linux security and grsecurity, WAS: upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170919-18:47+, Bruce Perens wrote:
> I suppose I am one of the "ungracious" ones, since I am currently fighting
> a lawsuit that Grsecurity filed against me for criticizing their GPL
> compliance.

I'm really sorry the lawsuit happened. And I sincerely wish it be resolved
quickly and with no harm for you, Bruce.

> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 10:30 zap  wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On 09/19/2017 10:47 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > ( citation manually inserted not to make two email replies; however,
> > I'll skip
> > > Rick Moen's reply in the thread that arrived in the meantime, since it's
> > off
> > > topic )
> > > On 170919-07:43+0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> > >
> > Also its random and not even funny.

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] security

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170919-14:47-0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 02:47:00PM +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> 
> > I'm trying not to go off topic here... But just a few more words...
> 
> Security in systems running Devuan is on topic here.  We choose Devuan 
> in part for security, and to be effective, we need security ll the 
You probably meant "all":
> in part for security, and to be effective, we need security all the 
> way down.
> 
> > 
> > > I am starting to believe computer security is an unattainable Utopia
> > No, Edward. If computer security weren't attainable we wouldn't have 
> > Wikileaks,
> > and neither would we have Edward Snowden.
> 
> > 
> > No, it's not unattainable. If I ever become part of a team, we'll be using 
> > what
> > FSF recommends (and it's what *taiidan* wrote extensively about recently on
> > this mailing list: IBM Talos II Power9 processor-based server;
> 
> Unfortunately, that comes at too high high a price for many of us.  
> But the cheaper systems are riddled with unexaminable firmware.  
Mine systems, the 10-yrs old 3 machines Abit AT8-32 and the 4 or 5 yrs old
Asrock Extreme4 (also some 3 machines), both model MBO's are AMD64-based, they
are of that unexaminable firmware kind as well (need to update in my topic on 
dev1galaxy
Strange Bash under grsecurity's exec logging
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1598
with that info, more info, more likely I get an explanation on the
Tab-launches-execs-frenzy events there (the frenzy there was on Asrock MBO
system).
> There's no good technical reason why this should be the case.  We end 
> up resenting it but settling for it because it's what we can 
> afford.
My above statement refers to possibly only my wishful future, some time in my
remaining life. No way could I afford IBM Talos II Power9-base server at this
time. But I keep dreaming and hoping...

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[fsmithred]

On 09/17/2017 04:30 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 01:49:00PM -0400, fsmithred wrote:
>> - standard system install of debian stretch plus openbox, lxterminal,
>> lxpanel and a few other packages.
>> - changed sources to devuan ascii, update, add key, update again
>> - install sysvinit-core, reboot.
>> - [optional] install live-config-sysvinit to replace live-config-systemd
>> - remove libpam-systemd systemd systemd-shim
>> - apt-get autoremove
> 
>> - install consolekit policykit-1 libpam-ck-connector (I don't know if
>> these were really needed. It seemed ok, but I'm using startx to get a
>> desktop.)
> 
> policykit is needed only for letting an unprivileged user
> shutdown/suspend/etc from a GUI, mount removable media and such.  It doesn't
> sound like you have an use for it.
> 
>> - install xserver-xorg-legacy
> 
> Bad idea!  You'd want xserver-xorg-legacy only if you have a truly ancient
> graphics card or an {u,eu,...}dev misconfiguration wrt input (or run hurd).
> 
> Obviously if for you the regular user is almost as sensitive as root anyway
> it's not a big concern, but if we stick to principles here we avoid training
> the user that making random things setuid is a good solution.  With KVM,
> there's no need for X to run as root.
> 
> 
> Meow!
> 

I removed xserver-xorg-legacy, commented out "needs_root..." and installed
a display manager (slim). X will run, but I'm confused about what part of
it should no longer be running as root. They look the same to me.



without xserver-xorg-legacy
without "needs_root_rights"
with display manager:

root  2583  0.0  0.1 128876 15964 ?Ss   10:21   0:00
/usr/bin/slim -d
root  2605  0.1  0.5 296356 45832 tty7 Ssl+ 10:21   0:03
/usr/lib/xorg/Xorg -nolisten tcp -auth /var/run/slim.auth


with xserver-xorg-legacy
with "needs_root_rights"
without display manager:

user  2118  0.0  0.0   4288  1580 tty1 S+   15:07   0:00 /bin/sh
/usr/bin/startx
user  2141  0.0  0.0  22312  1144 tty1 S+   15:07   0:00 xinit
/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc -- /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth
/tmp/serverauth.wP0Ynv4
root  2142  0.5  0.5 329932 45676 tty1 Sl   15:07   0:00
/usr/lib/xorg/Xorg -nolisten tcp :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth
/tmp/serverauth.wP0Ynv40Nd


fsmithred
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Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:46:46 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
<20170919144646.5hsbzypbzpuu7...@angband.pl>:

> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 08:38:24AM -0500, dev wrote:
> > Mozilla got a new bedmate named PulseAudio.
> > 
> > Looks like another Smooth Move by Mozilla that will end up costing
> > them market share.  I don't like Chrome, but basically forced to
> > choose between Pottering or Google at this point :/
> 
> You mean, there'll be anything left of current 5% after FF57 hits?

..my guess is their real target is the Tor browser, it's based on FF.

> Too bad, Firefox is the only somewhat usable browser.  With enough
> extensions (hello 57...) it's possible to beat some basic security
> into it, while Chromium has built-in spyware even in that "incognito
> mode" snake oil that can't be disabled by extensions.  Pale Moon
> guys, while their heart is in the right place, don't seem to be doing
> well.

..can they take over as basis for a new Tor browser, or is it "too much
water under the bridge"?  Or are the Tor people too much in bed with 
the systemd people with Debian/systemd based Tails?

> On the other hand, I don't quite see what's the point of sound in a
> WWW browser.  From time to time, someone insists you to view
> something on YouTube (because it's so hard to write that instead...)
> but that's a matter of clicking "download" then using a proper media
> player.

..and it can be automated, which carries it's own set of traps...

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:49:31 +0200, Narcis wrote in message 
<2d75dd54-26ec-7d5a-e5c4-23506cbf7...@actiu.net>:

> El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
> > Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> > 
> >> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> >> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate
> >> was for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> > 
> > What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
> >  
> 
> Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support.
> Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same
> usage and behavior of machines.

..are you able to "upgrade" your users to TDE, KDE, LXDE, LXQt, MATE 
or Cinnamon using a Wintendo-style theme to keep your users happy? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Desktop_Environment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXDE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_(software)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_(software)

..I don't know these much, TDE is a fork off KDE-3.5 which 
was great, also had Wintendo-style themes to keep users and 
bean counters happy.

..compared to KDE-3.5 (and I guess TDE), KDE-4.x and Plasma 
sucks, but has become endurable with 8GB ram.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 03:00:22PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> 
> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.

Wait for gnome 3->4.
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Re: [DNG] security

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 02:47:00PM +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

> I'm trying not to go off topic here... But just a few more words...

Security in systems running Devuan is on topic here.  We choose Devuan 
in part for security, and to be effective, we need security ll the 
way down.

> 
> > I am starting to believe computer security is an unattainable Utopia
> No, Edward. If computer security weren't attainable we wouldn't have 
> Wikileaks,
> and neither would we have Edward Snowden.

> 
> No, it's not unattainable. If I ever become part of a team, we'll be using 
> what
> FSF recommends (and it's what *taiidan* wrote extensively about recently on
> this mailing list: IBM Talos II Power9 processor-based server;

Unfortunately, that comes at too high high a price for many of us.  
But the cheaper systems are riddled with unexaminable firmware.  
There's no good technical reason why this should be the case.  We end 
up resenting it but settling for it because it's what we can 
afford.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] GNU/Linux security and grsecurity, WAS: upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[Bruce Perens]

I suppose I am one of the "ungracious" ones, since I am currently fighting
a lawsuit that Grsecurity filed against me for criticizing their GPL
compliance.

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 10:30 zap  wrote:

>
>
> On 09/19/2017 10:47 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > ( citation manually inserted not to make two email replies; however,
> I'll skip
> > Rick Moen's reply in the thread that arrived in the meantime, since it's
> off
> > topic )
> > On 170919-07:43+0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> >
> Also its random and not even funny.
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Alessandro Selli]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 at 16:49:31 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
>> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
>> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
>>   
>>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
>>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
>>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.  
>> 
>> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
>>
>
> Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support.
> Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same
> usage and behavior of machines.

  I'd like to know how those people reacted during the Gnome2 -> Gnome3
transition.


  Regards,


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 19.09.2017 16:46, Adam Borowski wrote:


Too bad, Firefox is the only somewhat usable browser.  With enough
extensions (hello 57...) it's possible to beat some basic security into it,
while Chromium has built-in spyware even in that "incognito mode" snake oil
that can't be disabled by extensions.


FF has it's spyware and censorware, too.

I've started a fork (still on esr52 as I didn't want to open the rust
pandorra box), but it's a quite huge job, so it needs more people.


On the other hand, I don't quite see what's the point of sound in a WWW
browser.  From time to time, someone insists you to view something on
YouTube (because it's so hard to write that instead...) but that's a matter
of clicking "download" then using a proper media player.


I actually like YT, running it all the day (my preferred background
noise ;-) and the browser is still the best frontend I know yet.

Of course, the video stuff should be delegated to a proper player
application instead of bundling everything in the browser, but that's
a different story ...


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] GNU/Linux security and grsecurity, WAS: upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[zap]

On 09/19/2017 10:47 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> ( citation manually inserted not to make two email replies; however, I'll skip
> Rick Moen's reply in the thread that arrived in the meantime, since it's off
> topic )
> On 170919-07:43+0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>
Also its random and not even funny.
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
>  

Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support.
Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same
usage and behavior of machines.
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[DNG] GNU/Linux security and grsecurity, WAS: upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[Miroslav Rovis]

( citation manually inserted not to make two email replies; however, I'll skip
Rick Moen's reply in the thread that arrived in the meantime, since it's off
topic )
On 170919-07:43+0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> With a compromised CPU that has questionable smaller cores running a
> HIDDEN OS, I cannot see what advantages anyone gets by installing
> grsecurity. This is worse than having a compromised machine that is
> always connected to your computer.
I see your point. If https://forums.grsecurity.net weren't locked since they
were chased out by ingratitude and ripoff of their code, I'd ask there about
it. Curious about this aspect really... Well, I should first try and search
more on it (but how?), and then ask about it, where?... maybe at 
https://www.superuser.com or elsewhere?
Maybe at:
https://lists.immunityinc.com/mailman/listinfo/dailydave ? If only the exploit
writers there were inclined to tell us their secrets (which is not so likely; 
but
they're certainly not hostile to whitehats...  spender did participate
occasionally and briefly in that mailing list)...

Not much more dare I venture on this issue because it is not directly related
to Devuan
(
other than me offering documentation to newbies about grsecurity as I
wrote in my email to which Edward replied, and in which I gave the links to my
dev1galaxy grsecurity topic and github repo script; only, at this time, for
compiling grsecurity hardened kernel; later I would also like to provide kernel
deb packages --as I used to provide for Debian-- or, in case corsac
(
http://perso.corsac.net/~corsac
)
returns and picks up instead from unavailable original grsecurity, from
*minipli's* unofficial-grsecurity and starts packaging them for Debian, then
would like to try to test them for Devuan
)
I'm trying not to go off topic here... But just a few more words...

> ... 
> There is yet the other uncertainty of what ISPs do with data
> travelling through their systems. Even if users set up completely
> secure systems, their data still has to travel through an ISPs
> infrastructure.
No, that ISP part can be fixed, if it isn't brute force censorship. It is/would
be very hard to control that part, but possible! (would be way offtopic trying
to go into details of my understanding on it, though)

> I am starting to believe computer security is an unattainable Utopia
No, Edward. If computer security weren't attainable we wouldn't have Wikileaks,
and neither would we have Edward Snowden.

No, it's not unattainable. If I ever become part of a team, we'll be using what
FSF recommends (and it's what *taiidan* wrote extensively about recently on
this mailing list: IBM Talos II Power9 processor-based server; BTW, in that
discussion the winning argument is, as often, Rick Moen's :-) on the sanity of
what FSF recommends:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170912.000313.f8275717.en.html
with the link to:
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-talos-ii-a-candidate-for-respects-your-freedom-certification-by-pre-ordering-by-september-15
).

And then you fix Linux with grsecurity, and you would have a secure GNU/Linux
server...


On 170919-10:24+0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> For example, some attack kits must be hoarded. They're very powerful, but
> every time they're used they risk disclosure,
Disclosure is what I'm fighting tooth and nails to get... My:
http://github.com/miroR/uncenz is all about that...

And disclosure is what can be seen in the first installment of the same type as
this second installment in Devuan forums:
Strange Bash under grsecurity's exec logging
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1598
where the first installement was four months ago, with what happened in my
Gentoo system:
Strange script planted with Bash
https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/cap-170504-strange-bash/index.php
But it's a very partial disclosure... because I'm not an expert...

> if the victim notices and
> sends the computer off to someone like Citizenlab. The attacker has great
> power and is almost unable to use it.
I looked up  
https://citizenlab.ca/
but didn't find a way to ask there about help on my issue above repeated...

I hope I haven't gone too much off topic. I presented my problem's basic
aspects, and it's grsecurity that helped uncover it...  unofficial-grsecurity
that I try to offer tips about to newbies in Devuan
( for clarity: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Devuan GNU/Linux
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=596 )

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 19/09/17 a les 15:56, J. Fahrner ha escrit:
> Am 2017-09-19 15:00, schrieb Narcis Garcia:
>> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
>>> Why in the world would you need Gnome?
>>
>> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
>> unexperienced and normal people.
>>
>> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
>> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
>> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.
>>
>> 3. Why not?
> 
> I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try
> to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a
> Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for Gnome, because
> Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with
> systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you have to use
> Windows. But don't cry.
> 

My first strategy on Windows to GNU migrations was to use a
WindowsXP-like theme for Gnome.
All users were happy with this, unlike I left Gnome 2 as it was.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 08:38:24AM -0500, dev wrote:
> Mozilla got a new bedmate named PulseAudio.
> 
> Looks like another Smooth Move by Mozilla that will end up costing them
> market share.  I don't like Chrome, but basically forced to choose between
> Pottering or Google at this point :/

You mean, there'll be anything left of current 5% after FF57 hits?

Too bad, Firefox is the only somewhat usable browser.  With enough
extensions (hello 57...) it's possible to beat some basic security into it,
while Chromium has built-in spyware even in that "incognito mode" snake oil
that can't be disabled by extensions.  Pale Moon guys, while their heart is
in the right place, don't seem to be doing well.

On the other hand, I don't quite see what's the point of sound in a WWW
browser.  From time to time, someone insists you to view something on
YouTube (because it's so hard to write that instead...) but that's a matter
of clicking "download" then using a proper media player.


Meow!
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⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity.  You can read it, too, you just need the
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so.  I recommend Skepticism
⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal).
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 19/09/17 a les 15:30, Rick Moen ha escrit:
> Quoting Narcis Garcia (informat...@actiu.net):
> 
>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> Or you could give Xfce a try.  It's rather nice.
> 
> But whatever's your cuppa.
> 

I have no problem with other desktop softwares if them can be
configured/themed to seem Gnome.
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Antony Stone]

On Tuesday 19 September 2017 at 15:16:58, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote:
>
> > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?

In this situation I'd guess the answer is familiarity.


Antony.

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 13:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
> 
> Why in the world would you need Gnome?

I don't think we should blindly reject providing Gnome in Devuan. As I wrote,
shwsh has already provided the two needed packages: elogind and gnome-settings-
daemon. As you might know GuixSD is running Gnome, and they use elogind (ported
by a Guix developer from systemd). Ability to choose desktops is good for
versatility in addition to init system choices.

Even if I don't run Gnome somebody else might want to. And if we can provide it
why not. This is a situation very similar to eudev (fork of udev from systemd).
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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  It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.
-- H. L. Mencken

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 14:51 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> I've tried shwsh's procedure and it doesn't work in the first step.

> Scenario was: Devuan 8 fresh install with all defaults, and only removed
> default desktop with:
> $ sudo tasksel remove desktop xfce-desktop
> $ sudo reboot

You have to be careful which version you use to try out gnome. It seems like
shwsh use ceres and ascii, combined with Debian strech. Definitely not jessie!
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 15:22 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

I run mate in Devuan Ascii. BBL when I started up that image again.

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2017-09-19 15:00, schrieb Narcis Garcia:

El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:

Why in the world would you need Gnome?


1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
unexperienced and normal people.

2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.

3. Why not?


I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try 
to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a 
Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for Gnome, because 
Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with 
systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you have to use 
Windows. But don't cry.


Jochen

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Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse

[dev]

On 09/18/2017 03:54 PM, Joel Roth wrote:

> Does FF 55 not support ALSA OOTB?

AFAIK, Mozilla got a new bedmate named PulseAudio.
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/03/firefox-52-no-sound-pulseaudio-alsa-linux

Apulse used to work but now Firefox has some weird sandbox thing
causing permissions issues on (bottom of page):
https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse. I've added "/dev/snd/" to
"security.sandbox.content.write_path_whitelist" but still no luck.

Probably not a Devuan thing. Looks like another Smooth Move by
Mozilla that will end up costing them market share. I don't like
Chrome, but basically forced to choose between Pottering or Google
at this point :/
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Narcis Garcia (informat...@actiu.net):

> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

Or you could give Xfce a try.  It's rather nice.

But whatever's your cuppa.

-- 
Rick Moen  "The numbers one through ten should be spelled out,
r...@linuxmafia.comwhile numbers greater than ten are products of the 
McQ!  (4x80)   Illuminati and should be avoided."
   -- @FakeAPStylebook
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Re: [DNG] upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):

> >I am starting to believe computer security is an unattainable Utopia.
> 
> That's a good book, I recommend reading it, if only for its
> descriptions of Utopia and attainability.

And for a picture of a slave society, where premarital sex is a crime,
and wives have to confess their sins to their husbands once a month.

Personally, I'd rather live in "Demolition Man"'s San Angeles, and I 
_hate_ Taco Bell.  ;->

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

Servers are an independent chapter.


El 19/09/17 a les 15:14, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> 3. Why not?
> 
> Because all recent versions of Gnome are infected with the systemd pox.
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Ron.
> 
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 03:00:22PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> > Why in the world would you need Gnome?
> 
> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
> unexperienced and normal people.
> 
> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.
> 
> 3. Why not?

...and foremost, why should one provide excuses for their choices on
Desktop Environments at all? :)

I have not used GNOME since its version 1.x (with x very small, I
guess), and still think that it would be better for a universal
distribution like Devuan to provide a way to install GNOME, if at all
possible (i.e., if it does not require systemd).

I am lacking the basic skills and interest to work on that, but still.

:)

KatolaZ

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> 3. Why not?

Because all recent versions of Gnome are infected with the systemd pox.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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  will not get any of those things.
  A society that puts freedom above equality
   will get a high degree of both."
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> Why in the world would you need Gnome?

1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
unexperienced and normal people.

2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.

3. Why not?
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

I've tried shwsh's procedure and it doesn't work in the first step.
apt loops in a large messages list, all saying:

...
Note, selecting 'python2.7-taurus' for regex '.'
Note, selecting 'r-cran-kernsmooth' for regex '.'
Note, selecting 'slsh' for regex '.'
...

Neither with dpkg:
$ sudo dkg -i elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb
...
dpkg: error processing archive elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb (--install):
 trying to overwrite '/lib/udev/rules.d/70-power-switch.rules', which is
also in package udev 215-17+deb8u7
dpkg: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Errors were encountered while processing:
 elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb

Scenario was: Devuan 8 fresh install with all defaults, and only removed
default desktop with:
$ sudo tasksel remove desktop xfce-desktop
$ sudo reboot


El 18/09/17 a les 12:28, Svante Signell ha escrit:
> On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 09:02 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
>> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
>>
>> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
> 
> On IRC September 6 somebody (shwsh) reported gnome running on Devuan. He
> packaged elogind gnome-settings-deamon. For more info see
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1581
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 11:19 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to Gnome.
> XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior?

See https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html

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Re: [DNG] What if...

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 11:35:27PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

[cut]

> 
> > Which do you think Devuan should support, a dying Debian version or
> > the supported Devuan version and its replacement ?
> 
> ..above all, the volonteers trying to help people stuck there.  
> I only see my minima "Devuan Wheezy" idea as an upgrade tool 
> towards Devuan Jessie.
> 
> ..hopefully as simple as a metapackage for nosystemd-unstable 
> and debootstrap?  Or a flavor?  
> Basically a Wheezy netboot copy with our stuff thrown in and 
> handily useful to the volonteers.
>

Hi Arnt,

I am still convinced that it's not the most useful thing in the world,
especially because there is a *safe* and *tested* path to upgrade a
Debian Wheezy into a Devuan Jessie (this is the same path hundreds of
people have used to get Devuan on virtual servers). And because Devuan
does not have literally anything to add to Debian Wheezy.

But if you are otherwise conviced that this is the way to go, just do
it.

HND

Enzo

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Re: [DNG] upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Edward Bartolo writes:

With a compromised CPU that has questionable smaller cores running a
HIDDEN OS, I cannot see what advantages anyone gets by installing
grsecurity. This is worse than having a compromised machine that is
always connected to your computer.


Bah.

We already know that a CPU can be compromised by changing a single NAND 
gate and that it can be done at the fab, without the CPU designer team's 
knowledge. In other words, you can raise security requirements so high that 
literally no computer builder can satisfy them. This does not mean that 
every lower requirement is pointless.


For example, some attack kits must be hoarded. They're very powerful, but 
every time they're used they risk disclosure, if the victim notices and 
sends the computer off to someone like Citizenlab. The attacker has great 
power and is almost unable to use it.


That's a threshold. A useful security threshold.


With such hardware around, GNU/Linux has just become yet another
Windows. The only advantage _till_now_ is GNU/Linux still allows
user-centred configurations and modularity.

There is yet the other uncertainty of what ISPs do with data
travelling through their systems. Even if users set up completely
secure systems, their data still has to travel through an ISPs
infrastructure.


You've just discovered that windows and friends aren't all black and linux 
not white. Indeed, both are patchily grey. I personally prefer linux, it 
gets the job done and much of it is lightish grey.


Getting the job done goes before "and" and security after, because if the 
job isn't done, security protects nothing and is worthless.



I am starting to believe computer security is an unattainable Utopia.


That's a good book, I recommend reading it, if only for its descriptions of 
Utopia and attainability.


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 14:30:37 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 13:03:01 +0200
> Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:43:34 -0400
> > Steve Litt  wrote:
> >   
> > > Is it just me, or does ssh-agent interacting with dbus seem like a
> > > horrible idea?
> > 
> > 
> > IIUC, they are only interacting insofar, that the ssh-agent will
> > terminate as soon as (in this case) dbus(-launch) exits.
> > 
> > From the manpage:
> > 
> > | SYNOPSIS
> > |ssh-agent [-c | -s] [-d] [-a bind_address] [-t life] [command
> > [arg ...]] |
> > | (...)
> > | 
> > |If a commandline is given, this is executed as a subprocess of
> > the |agent. When the command dies, so does the agent.  
> 
> Hi Florian,
> 
> I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that the command at
> the end of the ssh-agent line involves dbus?


Hallo Steve,

yes, that's how I interpret the (quote from the) manpage, which in fact
doesn't mention dbus at all.

Libre Grüße,

Florian

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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to Gnome.
XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior?


El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> 
> Gnome is so tightly would with systemd that it can't be run on Devuan
> with reasonable effort.
> 
>> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
> 
> Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory, add
> them to /etc/group and /etc/passwd as on the old machine, assign them
> temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their
> passwords. Set them all up with Xfce, and if they want to migrate to
> LXDE or Openbox or ctwm let them do it themselves.
> 
> PS: Do them a favor and incorporate dmenu using an easy hotkey. They'll
> be so thrilled with the quick and easy user interface that they'll
> never miss Gnome.
>  
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
> Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/09/2017 à 19:45, Steve Litt a écrit :

  assign them
temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their
passwords.


Or just copy their shadow passwords.

Didier


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