Re: [DNG] Way forward
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 09:07:44PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > You really think that the numbers working on the linux kernel are > somehow comparable to the numbers working on Devuan? Every person working on the linux kernel is working on Devuan. Every Debian developer is working on Devuan. As long as you avoid scope creep, an add-on can be done with only little work. At the extreme, the best Devuan would be a non-existing Devuan: when there's no need for it. With the number of bugs in systemd[1], this implies working sane inits without regressions. And alas, Debian is far from that. So Devuan, for now, is needed. And the number of regressions seems to be _increasing_ -- both in systemd itself and in Debian-without-systemd (because of integration with the former). [1]. This new machine I'm sitting at won't even boot with systemd. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Did ya know that typing "test -j8" instead of "ctest -j8" ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ will make your testsuite pass much faster, and fix bugs? ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On 14-04-19 21:03, Jim Jackson wrote: > > I find this somewhat amusing. Have you ever followed the linux kernel email > list, and watched the falling out and aggression there has been on there in > the past? Linus's (and others) language!! Better not take linux seriously > any longer :-) > > I'm happy to wait and see if the future is uncertain for Devuan - instead > of guessing. > > cheers > Jim > You really think that the numbers working on the linux kernel are somehow comparable to the numbers working on Devuan? Grtz Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > After all what happened i cannot take Devuan seriously any longer. And I > absolutely do not want my systems depending on a distro with such a > uncertain future. I find this somewhat amusing. Have you ever followed the linux kernel email list, and watched the falling out and aggression there has been on there in the past? Linus's (and others) language!! Better not take linux seriously any longer :-) I'm happy to wait and see if the future is uncertain for Devuan - instead of guessing. cheers Jim ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 03:53:41PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > Well Devuan needs that luck even more. I do not like systemd but it is > supported by those hated corporations (not only Red Sweat). And they > will pay for removing all those bugs. For Devuan the question has become > will Beowulf ever be stable after the departure of the biggest > contributor and two fighting caretakers. > > After all what happened i cannot take Devuan seriously any longer. And I > absolutely do not want my systems depending on a distro with such a > uncertain future. So help fixing systemd related regressions in Debian proper? That would be good for not only Devuan but all derivatives that are not systemd only (which in practice means not Ubuntu and Tails). I haven't done a single upload to Devuan -- I consider this counterproductive. Providing a regression-fixed stable release is very good -- but for unstable, anything that's not a mere staging ground is bad: it lets the systemd crowd tell people "so go to Devuan", making regressions grow (they have an excuse), thus increasing _your_ workload. And the manpower isn't that big... Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Did ya know that typing "test -j8" instead of "ctest -j8" ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ will make your testsuite pass much faster, and fix bugs? ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On 14-04-19 14:56, aitor_czr wrote: > > And I repeat: I wishyou all the best luck in the world, you really > need it :) > > https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=systemd > > Cheers, > > Aitor. > Well Devuan needs that luck even more. I do not like systemd but it is supported by those hated corporations (not only Red Sweat). And they will pay for removing all those bugs. For Devuan the question has become will Beowulf ever be stable after the departure of the biggest contributor and two fighting caretakers. After all what happened i cannot take Devuan seriously any longer. And I absolutely do not want my systems depending on a distro with such a uncertain future. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 05:21:48AM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 01:51:39AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > > > Following common understanding with other caretakers and parallel to > > the work on the conference documentation, I have started this website, > > soon to be linked by Devuan's official domain, served under TLS and > > completed with a list of willing partners as datacenterlight, your > > company and whoever will like: https://devuan.pro > > What does devuan.pro have to do with the idea of good software? ... As I see it, it's a place where people or organisations can go if they don't feel competent to install and maintain their installation of Devuan on their own. > > I'd suggest to not make devuan.pro part of devuan.org: > > I simply want decent software. So do they. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 14/4/19 11:46, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: I did support Devuan with mirror.smallinnovations.nl and devuan.smallinnovations.nl (and do until 30 april). I can read :) So what exactly is your point except that you apparently like to bully people? Bully people? Who is bulling people? Take your own way, but take it in silence. And I repeat: I wishyou all the best luck in the world, you really need it :) https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=systemd Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
dear Massimo and mett, thanks for your messages. I think right now they well represent the spirit of the caretakers and the actual situation. You are very welcome to get involved, through the devuan-dev list and Wednesday's dev meetings. We will face this empasse in a constructive way. Katolaz was so important to the making of ASCII and the growth of Devuan in the past 3 years that I believe his absence can be a beneficial reality check: if this project is really resilient to one developer leaving or not. Following CenturionDan's last email we definitely come to an agreement and mutual understanding of everyone's errors. We will move on now with facts, more than words: keeping Devuan alive and nurturing its growth. Everyone here is welcome to join maintainance tasks left by Katolaz. If noone will, then I'll make sure to do it myself and I'm sure other caretakers will do that too. > because the only thing that matter > is to carry on forward Yes. the only thing that matter here is Devuan, beyond anyone's feelings and professional life. And we stick to the plan. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
In beowulf at least you can use libelogind0 in place of libsystemd0 but packages still require something that provides it. libelogind0 shares some code with libsystemd0 and of course we only need it to provide some desktops, so there are things left where we don't need it. In beowulf at least you can use libelogind0 which is a slight relief :) Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:59 AM, aitor_czr wrote: > On 14/4/19 9:55, aitor_czr wrote: > > > On 13/4/19 16:34, mett wrote: > > > > > While everybody is obviously free to leave if he realizes he does not > > > share the same goal as the rest of the project, we are still facing a > > > crisis. I thus believe that we should win over people who supported > > > devuan in the > > > past, not fight with them. > > > > Of course, i agree. And they are free to decide. But my words have not been > > aimed against > > any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion Dan > > nor against KatolaZ. > > I was referring to such person who decided to end his membership of the > > list *making noice*. > > Please, if someone else takes the same way in the future, do it as a > > gentleman. Imho, it's the time to > > end this thread. > > Cheers, > > Aitor. > > *noise* publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 14-04-19 09:55, aitor_czr wrote: > On 13/4/19 16:34, mett wrote: >> While everybody is obviously free to leave if he realizes he does not >> share the same goal as the rest of the project, we are still facing a >> crisis. I thus believe that we should win over people who supported devuan >> in the >> past, not fight with them. > Of course, i agree. And they are free to decide. But my words have not > been aimed against > any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion > Dan nor against KatolaZ. > I was referring to such person who decided to end his membership of > the list *making noice*. > Please, if someone else takes the same way in the future, do it as a > gentleman. Imho, it's the time to > end this thread. > > Cheers, > > Aitor. I did support Devuan with mirror.smallinnovations.nl and devuan.smallinnovations.nl (and do until 30 april). So what exactly is your point except that you apparently like to bully people? Grtz Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
Hi fsmithred, On 14/4/19 11:22, fsmithred via Dng wrote: On 04/14/2019 04:40 AM, Antony Stone wrote: On Sunday 14 April 2019 at 10:39:34, aitor_czr wrote: On 14/4/19 10:30, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: About corporations: If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of libsystemd0. It's possible to remove entirely libsystemd0. How difficult is "possible"? Antony. In beowulf: apt-get install libelogind0 apt-get remove libsystemd0 That's all. fsmithred I'm on ascii and libelogind0 doesn't provide libsystemd0. I built an image of gnuinos jessie without libsystemd0, but also without any desktop environment. Runnig apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 i see a lot of reverse dependencies, so it may not be so simple. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 04/14/2019 04:40 AM, Antony Stone wrote: > On Sunday 14 April 2019 at 10:39:34, aitor_czr wrote: > >> On 14/4/19 10:30, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: >>> About corporations: >>> >>> If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they >>> should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of >>> libsystemd0. >> >> It's possible to remove entirely libsystemd0. > > How difficult is "possible"? > > Antony. > In beowulf: apt-get install libelogind0 apt-get remove libsystemd0 That's all. fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 14/4/19 9:59, aitor_czr wrote: my words have not been aimed against any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion Dan nor against KatolaZ whom i really appreciate :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 14/4/19 10:40, Antony Stone wrote: How difficult is "possible"? Antony. Not so difficult. I'll work on that. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] How to deploy an init.d script to Devuan 2.0 (ASCII)
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 18:54:31 +0200 Steffen Dettmer via Dng wrote: > Hi, > > At work I'm playing with Devuan in a VM supposed to replace > embedded systems. These systems have special proprietary software > which is deployed using a proprietary package manager, which > unfortunately does not support executing scripts (such as > postinstall). > > To start the proprietary software, part of its proprietary > package is an init.d script. I added > > /etc/init.d/ccucvm_startup_script Hi Steffen, I know little of sysvinit and therefore can't answer your exact question, but I've had problems like it for over a decade. What I always did when I couldn't get an init script to work is I let Daemontools manage the particular piece of software. Today I'd use runit or s6 instead, but the principle's exactly the same. Put Daemontools or runit or s6 as a respawn in /etc/inittab, and then let Daemontools or runit or s6 run your program. Basically, all you do is create a run script that starts the application with the same options as shown in the "start" part of the init script, EXCEPT that your app should be run in the foreground and not background itself. What I've found during the past decade is it's much easier to deploy and understand a daemon that's supervised by Daemontools, Daemontools-encore, runit or s6. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On Sunday 14 April 2019 at 10:39:34, aitor_czr wrote: > On 14/4/19 10:30, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > > About corporations: > > > > If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they > > should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of > > libsystemd0. > > It's possible to remove entirely libsystemd0. How difficult is "possible"? Antony. -- If you were ploughing a field, which would you rather use - two strong oxen or 1024 chickens? - Seymour Cray, pioneer of supercomputing Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: Way forward
Hi chillfan, On 14/4/19 10:30, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: About corporations: If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of libsystemd0. It's possible to remove entirely libsystemd0. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
IMHO.. I mentioned before that I didn't take your joke badly, and I do think others shouldn't either. About corporations: If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of libsystemd0. I've often heard it said 'linux' would be nowhere without them but consider that we've found ourselves in the situation where systemd must be removed, because they insisted on inserting it into every piece of userland they could. After a little thought my view is that we can't afford to care about what they think. It's a simple exchange where everyone benefits, but as to what they think this shouldn't go anywhere near development. I don't think we should constrain ourselves in our personalities or viewpoint we have, there's enough of that shit going around. If we start arguing over a joke that landed on april fools, I wonder how long it is until we get COC'd to death. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:19 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > Dear D1rs, > > the first Devuan Conference last weekend was an incredible experience, > which confirmed that Devuan has lots of energy, strength, imagination, > humanity, and willpower to succeed in its quest. Devuan is in > excellent hands, and it is destined to grow from strength to strength. > > I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have > always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I > promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan > until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or > stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun. > > In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to > different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and > will now take an indefinite leave from the project. > > Please forget this thread and do not waste any single bit on it: I > will not read and I will not reply. If you have time to spare, use it > to help Devuan in any way you can. Beowulf is very close, it will be a > fantastic release and it will finally close the gap with upstream :) > > Thanks for your passion and for the great community you make: this is > what powers Devuan, and what has made the miracle come true against > all odds. > > Live, Love, GNU/Linux, and never forget to Laugh Your Asses Off ;) > > I'll see you around. > > KatolaZ, the last humble servant > > > > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 14/4/19 9:55, aitor_czr wrote: On 13/4/19 16:34, mett wrote: While everybody is obviously free to leave if he realizes he does not share the same goal as the rest of the project, we are still facing a crisis. I thus believe that we should win over people who supported devuan in the past, not fight with them. Of course, i agree. And they are free to decide. But my words have not been aimed against any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion Dan nor against KatolaZ. I was referring to such person who decided to end his membership of the list *making noice*. Please, if someone else takes the same way in the future, do it as a gentleman. Imho, it's the time to end this thread. Cheers, Aitor. *noise* ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: Way forward
On 13/4/19 16:34, mett wrote: While everybody is obviously free to leave if he realizes he does not share the same goal as the rest of the project, we are still facing a crisis. I thus believe that we should win over people who supported devuan in the past, not fight with them. Of course, i agree. And they are free to decide. But my words have not been aimed against any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion Dan nor against KatolaZ. I was referring to such person who decided to end his membership of the list *making noice*. Please, if someone else takes the same way in the future, do it as a gentleman. Imho, it's the time to end this thread. Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
