Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
aitor said on Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:28:59 +0200 >Hi Steve, > >On 14/4/21 15:02, Steve Litt wrote: >> I think free software purist snobs drive more people back to >> Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. >The adversary of the fsf isn't Windows, but the propietary software in >general wherever it may come from. >In this context, whether a propietary piece of software is used in one >or other environment doesn't make it less propietary. Hi Aitor, Yes, but the end result of enforcing free software purism is a lot of those so exposed give up and install Windows. I don't blame them. A few times I've found it *really* hard to install when the installer just says "you might need nonfree drivers, but them on a thumb drive." Which drivers? How do I mount the thumb drive within the installation? In what thumb drive directory do I put them? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.7
Antony Stone said on Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:16:11 +0200 >On Wednesday 14 April 2021 at 22:03:45, tito via Dng wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> v 1.7 > >1. Why ask "yes or no" *before* checking for root (which is needed)? > >I would check for root first, and *then* ask "do you want to >proceed?", otherwise you're asking "do you want to do this?" and then >saying "you can't" if they aren't root - frustrating. > >2. I question the wording of "Do you want contrib repos to be added to >your apt sources?" because if I saw this, and I knew I already *had* >contrib repos, I would think "no, I don't them to be added; they're >already there". > >So, maybe "Do you want contrib repos to be included in your apt >sources?" would be a better way to ensure that if the user wants them, >they'll get them. Better yet, ask "Do you want contrib repos to be removed in your apt sources", so the question reveals the exact default, and of course, default the question to "no". SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
al3xu5 said on Wed, 14 Apr 2021 19:53:59 +0200 >Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 - tito : > > >Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:02:54 -0400 - Steve Litt >: >[ Extra OT comment START > >> Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because >> there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle my >> new laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, their >> mailing lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with the >> drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers and >> firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people back >> to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. > > >I agree in principle, although I believe the question is more complex. > >Premise 1: > >Premise 2: For me it does not detect to talk about Windows vs Linux or >distro_a vs Distro_B: it is not about "selling" something, nor to >"vote" to establish what is better or worse. The more market share Linux has, the more hardware vendors will be pressured to release API info to Linux devs, or at least write a quality proprietary driver/blob/firmware. Brother does it. Radeon does it. They don't do it to be nice guys, they do it to sell more product, because Linux has a market share. See this article I wrote these two articles after encountering extreme hardware/Linux clashes, and various purists blowing off all those with uncooperative hardware, including Linus Torvalds, who was considering getting rid of my one route to wifi in 2006, ndiswrapper: http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200612/200612.htm#_You_Bet_Im_Mad http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200612/200612.htm#_lifeAfterWindows >Premise 3: The "pure" distros (those who do not provide "non-free" >software) should bring users to increase their awareness: even if this >is an important and shareable goal, the result will hardly be achieved >in this way... I'll go a step farther. Such distros should, on the first screen of all their install methods, warn the user that *their* distro has no non-free drivers/blobs/firmware and might not work for the user's hardware, but this is not true of many other distros. Let the user it's not GNU/Linux causing this, it's the particular distro. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
fsmithred via Dng said on Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:57:38 -0400 >On 4/14/21 9:50 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: >>> tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 >>> >>> 2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list or should that be left to the user >>> >>> I'm not sure whether my answer is responsive to your question or >>> not, but here goes... >>> >>> I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at >>> install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't >>> need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and >>> sound working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, >>> by default, be installed at install time, but before installation >>> the user should be given the option of opting out of this >>> non-free/contrib stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, >>> he/she can maintain that principle in the installation. >>> >>> Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because >>> there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle >>> my new laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, >>> their mailing lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with >>> the drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers >>> and firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people >>> back to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. >> >> Yes, the nonfree software which is necessary to getting hardware to >> work should be installed unless the user explicitly says not to do >> it. He may be committed to freedom, but may have been bamboozled by >> the hardware vendor or has been given a free (but not libre) piece >> of hardware by a doting aunt for his birthday. >> >> That said, he should have to opt in to receiving other nonfree >> software. That should be a separate choice. He may well want to be >> as independent of nonfree software as practical. >> >> And let me remind you, there is precious little completely libre >> computer hardware around. Until there is, even the most extreme >> libre/freedom advocate will have nonfree stuff somewhere in the >> stack. >> >> Yes, I'm hoping for the longterm success of the libre-soc project. >> >> -- hendrik >> ___ > >It's currently opt-out. You must select Expert install to avoid >non-free and to choose your sources. Something about how the installer >works makes it easier to do it this way rather than the reverse. And >it's also easier for the non-experts to get their hardware working >this way. > >fsmithred I strongly urge that it be kept that way. Folks forced into Free Software Purity often quit in disgust. If the FOSS world is lucky, they go to Ubuntu or Mint, or if unlucky, maybe all the way back to Windows. And then they badmouth Linux because it "wouldn't work on their computer." SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
I’m not sure if this is a good way to do it but when Ubuntu is upgraded to a
new version the release upgrade tool disables all third-party apt sources and
PPA sources by commenting them out in the sources.list/sources.list.d files and
notifying the user this has been done. The user then has to enable them again
manually after upgrade.
I guess this makes it easy to filter out non-official apt sources and only
upgrade the official ones? I don’t know how it handles the situation of when
the user has a custom package mirror enabled instead of deb.debian.org or
similar ubuntu archive URL.
Also, don’t forget that debian has a separate URL for debian-security archive
while Devuan includes security packages archive in the regular deb.devuan.org
URL.
> On 15 Apr 2021, at 04:44, tito via Dng wrote:
>
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:01:02 +
> g4sra via Dng wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>>> This might be a good one to ask the users.
>>>
>>
>>> fsmithred
>>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> But if you did want to do it programmatically without parsing every
>> sources.{d/*,conf}... Ask apt what it is cacheing...
>>
>> if [ -n "$(apt-cache policy | grep 'buster/non-free')" ]; then
>> echo "yes include non-free repo";
>> else
>>
>> echo "no don't!";
>> fi
>
> This will give false positives:
>
> apt-cache policy | grep 'buster/non-free'
> 97 http://www.deb-multimedia.org buster/non-free amd64 Packages
>
> So I think I will ask the user.
>
> Ciao,
> Tito
> ___
> Dng mailing list
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Re: [DNG] strange mutt pauses
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 05:40:25AM +1000, onefang wrote: > On 2021-04-14 17:49:45, d...@d404.nl wrote: > > On 14-04-2021 16:19, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I have an unreliable connection between my server and the rest of the > > > world. > > > Yes, I'm going to have to deal with that; it's not what I'm asking about. > > > > > > I have a reliable wired connection from my laptop to my server. > > > And I run mutt on my server, connecting to it by ssh. > > > > > > What puzzles me is that every now and then, communication from my laptop > > > to > > > mutt mysteriously pauses. After a while, it resumes. > > > > > > Using a separate ssh connection to root on the server (which I use to > > > monitor my unreliable connectino to the rest of the world), I've noticed: > > > > > > That separate ssh connection stays up when mutt blocks. But using > > > ifconfig on that separate ssh connection tells me that pppoe connection > > > to > > > the rest of the world is off when mutt blocks. > > > > > > Why does mutt block, not even letting me type into the editor for an > > > email > > > I plan to send, when the ppp connection is down? What does mutt have to > > > do > > > with an internet connection? Isn't that postfix/s job? > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > Most likely it does do a domain name lookup which times out by lack of a > > ppp connection. > > I've been using neomutt. On ASCII it was renamed to mutt, on Beowulf > they named it back to neomutt, and the mutt package is actual mutt. I > dunno which one you are using. I'm running ascii, and the package mutt is installed, so I suspect based on what you say it must be neomutt. > > ASCII was on my old desktop, and Beowulf is on my new super desktop. I > use a local IMAP server running on the same computer in each case. The > ASCII version on the old computer would do that sort of mysterious pause > where all you can do is wait for it to unpause. The Beowulf version on > the new computer does that rarely. It was very annoying under ASCII, not > so much under Beowulf. That sounds like the pause I'm experiencing. > > I use fetchmail to gather emails from my various email providers, that > dumps them into my local IMAP server. > > I suspect the difference was the computers, not the version of neomutt. > Or it could just be if the check of IMAP stumbles across the fetchmail > process updating the IMAP folders. Or perhaps this later version mostly > fixed that pause. Maybe some combination of the three. I do not use IMAP. postfix just puts everything in to my mbox of incoming email. Anyone know how synchronisation between mutt and postfix works? I presume it's only needed when exiting mutt and it rewrites the file... or is the mechanism something different? > > The Beowulf version does have a problem with showing the O old email > marker as N new email (a known bug). Which is even more annoying. I'm > considering installing ASCII in a VM on this new super desktop, and > running the ASCII version in it. If I do that, I might find out if the > pause gets worse. > > (For reference, old computer was an 11 year old AMD system with 8 GB of > RAM, new super desktop is an AMD Threadripper with 256 GB of RAM.) Mine is about as old; but only 2GB of RAM. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] BUG in desktop-base
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:20:37 -0400 fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 4/13/21 6:13 PM, tito via Dng wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:19:06 +0200 > > aitor wrote: > > > >> Hi Tito, > >> > >> On 13/4/21 8:08, tito via Dng wrote: > >>> cat /sys/class/drm/card0-Virtual-1/modes > >>> preferred > >>> 2560x1600 > >>> 1920x1440 > >>> 1856x1392 > >> The origin of the warning lies in the first line equal to > >> "preferred", as you pointed out: > >> > >> /var/lib/dpkg/info/desktop-base.postinst: line 30: [: preferred: > >> integer expression expected > >> > >> Imho, it should be considered a bug because the script ignores the > >> preferred value, going ahead with the *else* statement. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Aitor. > >> > >> > > > > Hi, > > so next question is: is it devuan or debian bug? > > > > Ciao, > > Tito > > ___ > > Devuan. We fork desktop-base. You could file a bug report, or you > could just tell me. I have control over line 30 and all the others. > What should I do with it? Where and how can the script get the > preferred value? > > Thanks, > fsmithred > Hi, looking at my desktop there is no preferred value to be found in /sys/class/drm/*. The only value that looks good is in: cat /sys/class/graphics/fb0/modes U:1920x1080p-0 if it could be parsed and used in desktop-base script I cannot say. Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
Hi Steve, On 14/4/21 15:02, Steve Litt wrote: I think free software purist snobs drive more people back to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. The adversary of the fsf isn't Windows, but the propietary software in general wherever it may come from. In this context, whether a propietary piece of software is used in one or other environment doesn't make it less propietary. Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.7.1
On Wednesday 14 April 2021 at 22:23:00, tito via Dng wrote: > V.1.7.1 :) Antony. -- Atheism is a non-prophet-making organisation. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.7.1
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:16:11 +0200 Antony Stone wrote: > On Wednesday 14 April 2021 at 22:03:45, tito via Dng wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > v 1.7 > > 1. Why ask "yes or no" *before* checking for root (which is needed)? > > I would check for root first, and *then* ask "do you want to > proceed?", otherwise you're asking "do you want to do this?" and then > saying "you can't" if they aren't root - frustrating. > > 2. I question the wording of "Do you want contrib repos to be added > to your apt sources?" because if I saw this, and I knew I already > *had* contrib repos, I would think "no, I don't them to be added; > they're already there". > > So, maybe "Do you want contrib repos to be included in your apt > sources?" would be a better way to ensure that if the user wants > them, they'll get them. > > > Antony. > V.1.7.1 Done. Ciao, Tito migration.sh Description: application/shellscript ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.7
On Wednesday 14 April 2021 at 22:03:45, tito via Dng wrote: > Hi, > > v 1.7 1. Why ask "yes or no" *before* checking for root (which is needed)? I would check for root first, and *then* ask "do you want to proceed?", otherwise you're asking "do you want to do this?" and then saying "you can't" if they aren't root - frustrating. 2. I question the wording of "Do you want contrib repos to be added to your apt sources?" because if I saw this, and I knew I already *had* contrib repos, I would think "no, I don't them to be added; they're already there". So, maybe "Do you want contrib repos to be included in your apt sources?" would be a better way to ensure that if the user wants them, they'll get them. Antony. -- APL [is a language], in which you can write a program to simulate shuffling a deck of cards and then dealing them out to several players, in four characters, none of which appear on a standard keyboard. - David Given Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.7
Hi, v 1.7 now with supported DE's: 1) GNOME 2) LXDE 3) LXQT 4) XFCE 5) KDE 6) MATE and minor fixes, improvements and cleanups. Added user choice for non-free and contrib repos. Ciao, Tito migration.sh Description: application/shellscript ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] strange mutt pauses
On 2021-04-14 17:49:45, d...@d404.nl wrote: > On 14-04-2021 16:19, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > I have an unreliable connection between my server and the rest of the > > world. > > Yes, I'm going to have to deal with that; it's not what I'm asking about. > > > > I have a reliable wired connection from my laptop to my server. > > And I run mutt on my server, connecting to it by ssh. > > > > What puzzles me is that every now and then, communication from my laptop to > > mutt mysteriously pauses. After a while, it resumes. > > > > Using a separate ssh connection to root on the server (which I use to > > monitor my unreliable connectino to the rest of the world), I've noticed: > > > > That separate ssh connection stays up when mutt blocks. But using > > ifconfig on that separate ssh connection tells me that pppoe connection to > > the rest of the world is off when mutt blocks. > > > > Why does mutt block, not even letting me type into the editor for an email > > I plan to send, when the ppp connection is down? What does mutt have to do > > with an internet connection? Isn't that postfix/s job? > > > > -- hendrik > > Most likely it does do a domain name lookup which times out by lack of a > ppp connection. I've been using neomutt. On ASCII it was renamed to mutt, on Beowulf they named it back to neomutt, and the mutt package is actual mutt. I dunno which one you are using. ASCII was on my old desktop, and Beowulf is on my new super desktop. I use a local IMAP server running on the same computer in each case. The ASCII version on the old computer would do that sort of mysterious pause where all you can do is wait for it to unpause. The Beowulf version on the new computer does that rarely. It was very annoying under ASCII, not so much under Beowulf. I use fetchmail to gather emails from my various email providers, that dumps them into my local IMAP server. I suspect the difference was the computers, not the version of neomutt. Or it could just be if the check of IMAP stumbles across the fetchmail process updating the IMAP folders. Or perhaps this later version mostly fixed that pause. Maybe some combination of the three. The Beowulf version does have a problem with showing the O old email marker as N new email (a known bug). Which is even more annoying. I'm considering installing ASCII in a VM on this new super desktop, and running the ASCII version in it. If I do that, I might find out if the pause gets worse. (For reference, old computer was an 11 year old AMD system with 8 GB of RAM, new super desktop is an AMD Threadripper with 256 GB of RAM.) -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 19:53:59 +0200 al3xu5 wrote: > Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 - tito : > > > > > Two serious question arise now? > > > > 1) should echo "ALWAYS_SET_PATH true" > /etc/default/su > > be added to the script to restore old su behaviour or > > should that be left to the user > > I think it should be left to the user, using the buster > "pre-migration" situation as the default choice OK Keep "status quo". Ciao, Tito > > Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:02:54 -0400 - Steve Litt > : > > > tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 > > > > > > >2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list > > >or should that be left to the user > > > > > I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at > > install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't > > need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and > > sound working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, > > by default, be installed at install time, but before installation > > the user should be given the option of opting out of this > > non-free/contrib stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, > > he/she can maintain that principle in the installation. > > I totally agree. > > > > [ Extra OT comment START > > > Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because > > there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle > > my new laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, > > their mailing lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with > > the drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers > > and firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people > > back to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. > > > I agree in principle, although I believe the question is more complex. > > Premise 1: From a practical point of view, I do not think the claim to > have 100% free software (in the sense of software with a copyleft or > GPL-copyleft-compatible license) in order to have freedom, privacy, > security, stability etc., makes much sense: the hardware remains not > free, the vanilla kernel has blobs, a loto of free software are > actually used for the worst nephans... and certainly it is not a > license (any) which could be able to guarantee people freedom or > privacy or security... > > Premise 2: For me it does not detect to talk about Windows vs Linux or > distro_a vs Distro_B: it is not about "selling" something, nor to > "vote" to establish what is better or worse. > > Premise 3: The "pure" distros (those who do not provide "non-free" > software) should bring users to increase their awareness: even if > this is an important and shareable goal, the result will hardly be > achieved in this way... As already observed, if people don't already > have that awareness, the result will be that most of the users simply > will change distro or install Windows (maybe pirated). > > That being said, as far as the software licenses are important for > software, people freedom and equality are linked to social and > political aspects that are generally related only partly to digital > technologies, and which are at a much broader and "high" level. > > My computer is 100% free software (at least I think it is), but not > for this I think I am free; and if all the devices of the world were > 100% free software, I don't think this would be enough to give > everyone freedom. > > (please, sorry for length and boredom) > > Extra OT comment END ] > > > > al3xu5 > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:01:02 +
g4sra via Dng wrote:
> >
>
> > This might be a good one to ask the users.
> >
>
> > fsmithred
> >
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> But if you did want to do it programmatically without parsing every
> sources.{d/*,conf}... Ask apt what it is cacheing...
>
> if [ -n "$(apt-cache policy | grep 'buster/non-free')" ]; then
> echo "yes include non-free repo";
> else
>
> echo "no don't!";
> fi
This will give false positives:
apt-cache policy | grep 'buster/non-free'
97 http://www.deb-multimedia.org buster/non-free amd64 Packages
So I think I will ask the user.
Ciao,
Tito
___
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Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 - tito : > Two serious question arise now? > > 1) should echo "ALWAYS_SET_PATH true" > /etc/default/su > be added to the script to restore old su behaviour or > should that be left to the user I think it should be left to the user, using the buster "pre-migration" situation as the default choice Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:02:54 -0400 - Steve Litt : > tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 > > > >2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list > >or should that be left to the user > > I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at > install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't > need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and sound > working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, by > default, be installed at install time, but before installation the user > should be given the option of opting out of this non-free/contrib > stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, he/she can maintain that > principle in the installation. I totally agree. [ Extra OT comment START > Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because > there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle my new > laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, their mailing > lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with the > drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers and > firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people back to > Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. I agree in principle, although I believe the question is more complex. Premise 1: From a practical point of view, I do not think the claim to have 100% free software (in the sense of software with a copyleft or GPL-copyleft-compatible license) in order to have freedom, privacy, security, stability etc., makes much sense: the hardware remains not free, the vanilla kernel has blobs, a loto of free software are actually used for the worst nephans... and certainly it is not a license (any) which could be able to guarantee people freedom or privacy or security... Premise 2: For me it does not detect to talk about Windows vs Linux or distro_a vs Distro_B: it is not about "selling" something, nor to "vote" to establish what is better or worse. Premise 3: The "pure" distros (those who do not provide "non-free" software) should bring users to increase their awareness: even if this is an important and shareable goal, the result will hardly be achieved in this way... As already observed, if people don't already have that awareness, the result will be that most of the users simply will change distro or install Windows (maybe pirated). That being said, as far as the software licenses are important for software, people freedom and equality are linked to social and political aspects that are generally related only partly to digital technologies, and which are at a much broader and "high" level. My computer is 100% free software (at least I think it is), but not for this I think I am free; and if all the devices of the world were 100% free software, I don't think this would be enough to give everyone freedom. (please, sorry for length and boredom) Extra OT comment END ] al3xu5 -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgpiHzRFLER1t.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
>
> This might be a good one to ask the users.
>
> fsmithred
>
Agreed.
But if you did want to do it programmatically without parsing every
sources.{d/*,conf}...
Ask apt what it is cacheing...
if [ -n "$(apt-cache policy | grep 'buster/non-free')" ]; then
echo "yes include non-free repo";
else
echo "no don't!";
fi
publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [DNG] strange mutt pauses
On 14-04-2021 16:19, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I have an unreliable connection between my server and the rest of the > world. > Yes, I'm going to have to deal with that; it's not what I'm asking about. > > I have a reliable wired connection from my laptop to my server. > And I run mutt on my server, connecting to it by ssh. > > What puzzles me is that every now and then, communication from my laptop to > mutt mysteriously pauses. After a while, it resumes. > > Using a separate ssh connection to root on the server (which I use to > monitor my unreliable connectino to the rest of the world), I've noticed: > > That separate ssh connection stays up when mutt blocks. But using > ifconfig on that separate ssh connection tells me that pppoe connection to > the rest of the world is off when mutt blocks. > > Why does mutt block, not even letting me type into the editor for an email > I plan to send, when the ppp connection is down? What does mutt have to do > with an internet connection? Isn't that postfix/s job? > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Most likely it does do a domain name lookup which times out by lack of a ppp connection. Grtz Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On 4/14/21 10:15 AM, tito wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:57:38 -0400 > fsmithred via Dng wrote: > >> >> It's currently opt-out. You must select Expert install to avoid >> non-free and to choose your sources. Something about how the >> installer works makes it easier to do it this way rather than the >> reverse. And it's also easier for the non-experts to get their >> hardware working this way. >> >> fsmithred > > So I will add them by default. > > Ciao, > Tito > I can't think of a good way to do it, either. I just substitute buster with beowulf, but that only works because I know what's in my sources.list. That could break all kinds of third-party repos. Adding non-free where it's not wanted will anger some people. Removing it where it's wanted might break some systems. This might be a good one to ask the users. fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] strange mutt pauses
I have an unreliable connection between my server and the rest of the world. Yes, I'm going to have to deal with that; it's not what I'm asking about. I have a reliable wired connection from my laptop to my server. And I run mutt on my server, connecting to it by ssh. What puzzles me is that every now and then, communication from my laptop to mutt mysteriously pauses. After a while, it resumes. Using a separate ssh connection to root on the server (which I use to monitor my unreliable connectino to the rest of the world), I've noticed: That separate ssh connection stays up when mutt blocks. But using ifconfig on that separate ssh connection tells me that pppoe connection to the rest of the world is off when mutt blocks. Why does mutt block, not even letting me type into the editor for an email I plan to send, when the ppp connection is down? What does mutt have to do with an internet connection? Isn't that postfix/s job? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:57:38 -0400 fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 4/14/21 9:50 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > >> tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 > >> > >> > >>> 2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list > >>>or should that be left to the user > >> > >> I'm not sure whether my answer is responsive to your question or > >> not, but here goes... > >> > >> I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at > >> install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user > >> doesn't need to put in additional media to get boot, network, > >> video and sound working. And I believe any non-free and contrib > >> stuff should, by default, be installed at install time, but before > >> installation the user should be given the option of opting out of > >> this non-free/contrib stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, > >> he/she can maintain that principle in the installation. > >> > >> Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because > >> there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle > >> my new laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, > >> their mailing lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive > >> with the drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which > >> drivers and firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive > >> more people back to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free > >> ways. > > > > Yes, the nonfree software which is necessary to getting hardware to > > work should be installed unless the user explicitly says not to do > > it. He may be committed to freedom, but may have been bamboozled by > > the hardware vendor or has been given a free (but not libre) piece > > of hardware by a doting aunt for his birthday. > > > > That said, he should have to opt in to receiving other nonfree > > software. That should be a separate choice. He may well want to be > > as independent of nonfree software as practical. > > > > And let me remind you, there is precious little completely libre > > computer hardware around. Until there is, even the most extreme > > libre/freedom advocate will have nonfree stuff somewhere in the > > stack. > > > > Yes, I'm hoping for the longterm success of the libre-soc project. > > > > -- hendrik > > ___ > > It's currently opt-out. You must select Expert install to avoid > non-free and to choose your sources. Something about how the > installer works makes it easier to do it this way rather than the > reverse. And it's also easier for the non-experts to get their > hardware working this way. > > fsmithred So I will add them by default. Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:50:17 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 > > > > > > >2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list > > >or should that be left to the user > > > > I'm not sure whether my answer is responsive to your question or > > not, but here goes... > > > > I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at > > install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't > > need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and > > sound working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, > > by default, be installed at install time, but before installation > > the user should be given the option of opting out of this > > non-free/contrib stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, > > he/she can maintain that principle in the installation. > > > > Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because > > there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle > > my new laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, > > their mailing lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with > > the drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers > > and firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people > > back to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. > > Yes, the nonfree software which is necessary to getting hardware to > work should be installed unless the user explicitly says not to do it. > He may be committed to freedom, but may have been bamboozled by the > hardware vendor or has been given a free (but not libre) piece of > hardware by a doting aunt for his birthday. > > That said, he should have to opt in to receiving other nonfree > software. That should be a separate choice. He may well want to be > as independent of nonfree software as practical. > > And let me remind you, there is precious little completely libre > computer hardware around. Until there is, even the most extreme > libre/freedom advocate will have nonfree stuff somewhere in the stack. > > Yes, I'm hoping for the longterm success of the libre-soc project. > > -- hendrik Hi, thanks for your time and effort. My question was rather practical, so let me rephrase it: is there a robust way to detect from a script if buster non-free and contrib repos are enabled in /etc/apt/sources.lists so that I can add the same repos for beowulf to sources.list? I could not find something that looks reliable so far. Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On 4/14/21 9:50 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: >> tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 >> >> >>> 2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list >>>or should that be left to the user >> >> I'm not sure whether my answer is responsive to your question or not, >> but here goes... >> >> I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at >> install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't >> need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and sound >> working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, by >> default, be installed at install time, but before installation the user >> should be given the option of opting out of this non-free/contrib >> stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, he/she can maintain that >> principle in the installation. >> >> Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because >> there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle my new >> laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, their mailing >> lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with the >> drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers and >> firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people back to >> Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. > > Yes, the nonfree software which is necessary to getting hardware to work > should be installed unless the user explicitly says not to do it. > He may be committed to freedom, but may have been bamboozled by the > hardware vendor or has been given a free (but not libre) piece of hardware > by a doting aunt for his birthday. > > That said, he should have to opt in to receiving other nonfree software. > That should be a separate choice. He may well want to be as independent of > nonfree software as practical. > > And let me remind you, there is precious little completely libre > computer hardware around. Until there is, even the most extreme > libre/freedom advocate will have nonfree stuff somewhere in the stack. > > Yes, I'm hoping for the longterm success of the libre-soc project. > > -- hendrik > ___ It's currently opt-out. You must select Expert install to avoid non-free and to choose your sources. Something about how the installer works makes it easier to do it this way rather than the reverse. And it's also easier for the non-experts to get their hardware working this way. fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 > > > >2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list > >or should that be left to the user > > I'm not sure whether my answer is responsive to your question or not, > but here goes... > > I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at > install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't > need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and sound > working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, by > default, be installed at install time, but before installation the user > should be given the option of opting out of this non-free/contrib > stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, he/she can maintain that > principle in the installation. > > Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because > there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle my new > laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, their mailing > lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with the > drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers and > firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people back to > Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. Yes, the nonfree software which is necessary to getting hardware to work should be installed unless the user explicitly says not to do it. He may be committed to freedom, but may have been bamboozled by the hardware vendor or has been given a free (but not libre) piece of hardware by a doting aunt for his birthday. That said, he should have to opt in to receiving other nonfree software. That should be a separate choice. He may well want to be as independent of nonfree software as practical. And let me remind you, there is precious little completely libre computer hardware around. Until there is, even the most extreme libre/freedom advocate will have nonfree stuff somewhere in the stack. Yes, I'm hoping for the longterm success of the libre-soc project. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Script to migrate buster desktop to beowulf v1.6
tito via Dng said on Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:03:02 +0200 >2) should non-free and contrib repos be added to sources.list >or should that be left to the user I'm not sure whether my answer is responsive to your question or not, but here goes... I believe enough non-free and contrib stuff should be available at install time (or boot time on a live CD/flash) that the user doesn't need to put in additional media to get boot, network, video and sound working. And I believe any non-free and contrib stuff should, by default, be installed at install time, but before installation the user should be given the option of opting out of this non-free/contrib stuff, so if he/she only uses free software, he/she can maintain that principle in the installation. Stating it the inverse way, I HATE these installs that bomb because there's no FSF-satisfying drivers, firmware or software to handle my new laptop's weird hardware. And those distros that do that, their mailing lists always say "well just put in a thumb drive with the drivers/firmware!" How the KFDWOJMFOW do I know which drivers and firmware? I think free software purist snobs drive more people back to Windows than cleanse people of their non-free ways. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Dependency of KDE on lightdm or slim
Hey, Στις 13/4/21 4:50 μ.μ., ο/η tito via Dng έγραψε: On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:48:03 +0200 tito via Dng wrote: is there a reason task-kde-desktop 3.53 has a dependency on lightdm or slim? I ask because I have xfce and kde installed on beowulf and use sddm to manage the display and never experienced problems or missed funcionality. i'd suggest submitting a bug report/patch to devuan tasksel package.. sddm is already there, but commented out (don't know why)..: https://gitea.devuan.dev/devuan/tasksel/src/tag/devuan/3.54+devuan4/debian/control#L119 same in testing/ceres : https://gitea.devuan.dev/devuan/tasksel/src/tag/devuan/3.63+devuan1/debian/control#L174 d. OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
