Re: [DNG] [OT] British vs American language
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 06:07:31PM -0400, . via Dng wrote: > > On 7/29/21 6:00 AM, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: > > American != English > > > > Rowland > > Also, > > British != English > > Canadian != English > > Indian != English > > Australian != English > > Ugandan != English > > > Chaucer == English Somewhere I have a huge book on English grammar, currently out of reach. About a thousand pages if I recall correctly. And it covers only British and American English, and the foreword kind of apologises for not coverint Indian English. And it's kind of amazing how these different versions have grammatical differences, not kust spelling and vocabulary. Unfortunately, it's currently not accessible, so I can't give you any examples. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 04:57:44PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > al3xu5 said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:33:10 +0200 > > > >11) Document and document and document all the code (vars, functions, > >errors etc. ... all) > > I do that: Nobody else does. It really makes things difficult when I > need to work on or with somebody's code. I ofter predocument -- explain what my code is intended to do before I write it. This is a planning document. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
On 7/28/21 1:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
[ Beverity ]
Does anyone have other list items to add?
Now that you got me thinking;
One should be explicit instead of implicit. I see this in code all the
time and it drives me crazy
// NO
if (condition)
doSomething();
// YES
if (condition) {
doSomething();
}
C and Java let you get away with this. The existence of real block
delimiters makes clear the intent.
Josef
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Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
On 7/28/21 2:02 PM, tito via Dng wrote:
[ DELETED for brevity ]
That's bad... I love global variables ;-( as they avoid shuffling around
parameters in functions (KISS?)
Global variables are a disaster looking for a place to happen, avoid at
all cost. The scope of variables should be as small as possible.
OK, this is my private little hell but I am going to share. I dislike
long parameter list when calling a method. You have to remember the
order and the type. I prefer to pass in a struct / hash / class object /
associated array / dictionary / {whatever}. it makes things cleaner.
Depending on the language I prefer to pass the {whatever} in by
reference instead of pass by value.
Another suggestion I have is to use the variable and method naming
convention that java uses. I like the way it looks and I think camel
case is more readable than snake case.
Josef
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Re: [DNG] [OT] British vs American language
On 7/29/21 6:00 AM, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: > American != English > > Rowland Also, British != English Canadian != English Indian != English Australian != English Ugandan != English Chaucer == English -Bob,mon. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 10:00 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > g4sra via Dng said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 20:50:02 + > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 9:19 PM, Steve Litt > > sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: > > > > > spiralofhope said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:00:48 -0700 > > > > Once this gets complex enough it'll need to be self-hosting in a > > > > sense; check the rules against the rules -- de-duplicate, > > > > simplify, add documentation, etc. :) > > > > > > Internal consistency? I don't know the correct term offhand. > > > > > Huh? > > > > Apply the whole document to each individual line sequentially ... > > Recursive Iteration ? > > I still don't understand. > If I correctly interpret spiralofhope's meaning Regard the document itself as if it was pseudocode. Apply the rules of the document to the document e.g. 1) keep the document as short as possible ... 3) all of a paragraph must fit on the screen ... 9) the document must be readable to others like a children's book > SteveT > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
g4sra via Dng said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 20:50:02 + >Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > >‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > >On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 9:19 PM, Steve Litt > wrote: > >> spiralofhope said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:00:48 -0700 >> > >> > Once this gets complex enough it'll need to be self-hosting in a >> > sense; check the rules against the rules -- de-duplicate, >> > simplify, add documentation, etc. :) >> > > >> > Internal consistency? I don't know the correct term offhand. >> > >> Huh? > >Apply the whole document to each individual line sequentially ... >Recursive Iteration ? I still don't understand. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
al3xu5 said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:33:10 +0200 > >9) Write code to debug and log I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean to write errors and warnings to log files, or do you mean something more. > >10) Handle all kind of errors I know that's the *right* thing to do, and I do it often, but sometimes I skip it because of all the typing, especially with try/except type stuff. I've seen, and written code with warning and error routines that automatically write the date, give whatever text is in the argument, and exit if necessary. THAT would make full error handling a lot easier. > >11) Document and document and document all the code (vars, functions, >errors etc. ... all) I do that: Nobody else does. It really makes things difficult when I need to work on or with somebody's code. > >12) Write and run accurate tests for each routine and the whole code Yes! > >13) Clearly specify the license(s) for each piece of code Yes! SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 9:19 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > spiralofhope said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:00:48 -0700 > > > Once this gets complex enough it'll need to be self-hosting in a sense; > > check the rules against the rules -- de-duplicate, simplify, add > > documentation, etc. :) > > > > Internal consistency? I don't know the correct term offhand. > > Huh? Apply the whole document to each individual line sequentially ... Recursive Iteration ? > > SteveT > publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
spiralofhope said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:00:48 -0700 >Once this gets complex enough it'll need to be self-hosting in a sense; >check the rules against the rules -- de-duplicate, simplify, add >documentation, etc. :) > >Internal consistency? I don't know the correct term offhand. Huh? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
tempforever said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:13:51 -0400 >Is this commandment (the code of one subroutine fitting into one >screen) an absolute rule? What about, for example, assembly-language >programming? Must I buy a bigger screen? :-) >I will admit that I do very little assembly anymore, so this wouldn't >affect me much now. I have many routines in C that take up many lines >(more than a screen). I think the point is that if you have more that a screenful of code, you should call one or more obviously named subroutines to do some of it. You can even to this in assembly with Jump To Subroutine and Return From Subroutine. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:16:31 + g4sra via Dng wrote: > <--snip->> > > > > > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy > > > > > every corner case, > > > > > You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device > > > > > in existence on the installation media. > > > > > Hi, > > > > > let's add this up for example for amd64 > > > > > kernel 48 MB > > firmware-linux-free 19.2 KB > > > > > There no more interesting packages in my Synaptic kernel and modules > > section if we > > assume that a install iso ships just one kernel. > > In the kernel and modules (contrib) section there a few packages not more > > then 20MB. > > in the kernel and modules (non-free) section about 50 more packages about > > 206 MB. > > Some 300 MB in total, where are all the GBs? > > Even if we add DKMS and compilers which I skipped how much GBs will them > > be?. > > > > > What am I missing? > > All the 'other' Drivers that people are complaining are NOT in the netinstall > ISO's. > I don't understand the point you are making in adding up the Drivers that > *are* included. Hi, I'm just saying that I wonder why being not that big in size they were not included and in fact as you confirm they are included. The ones you list here are all firmware blob packages so now the question arises which are the DRIVER packages that should have been included and are not? By inspecting the repos (not the isos) with the synaptic package manager I was not able to spot the GBs of packages you mentioned, probably this is my fault and I just look in the wrong places. Ciao, Tito > mount -o loop devuan_beowulf_3.1.0_amd64-netinstall.iso /mnt/tmp > find /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/ -type f -name "firmware-*" > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43legacy-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/f/firmware-free/firmware-linux-free_3.4_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc-dbgsym_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-adi_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-amd-graphics_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-atheros_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2x_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-brcm80211_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-cavium_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intel-sound_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intelwimax_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ipw2x00_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ivtv_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-iwlwifi_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-libertas_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-misc-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-myricom_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netronome_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netxen_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qcom-media_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qlogic_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ralink_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-realtek_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-samsung_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-siano_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ti-connectivity_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/z/zd1211-firmware/firmware-zd1211_1.5-6_all.deb ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Riccardo Mottola via Dng said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:17:28 +0200 >Also, most essentially, it is a matter of network driver, the rest can >stay on the non-free repository. You need the video drivers too. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Riccardo Mottola said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:07:11 +0200 >Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. >Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. Riccardo, You just reminded me that I always recommend having a known good, doesn't-need-drivers wifi dongle on hand for those times when your laptop's wifi won't work during installation. Some are made for the Raspberry Pi: I'd guess that those would work on pretty much any hardware. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
Anno domini 2021 Thu, 29 Jul 10:57:50 -0700
spiralofh...@spiralofhope.com scripsit:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:33:10 +0200
> al3xu5 wrote:
>
> > 11) Document and document and document all the code (vars, functions,
> > errors etc. ... all)
>
> It was mentioned earlier; variables and functions wouldn't need much
> (if any) documentation if they were long and descriptive.
Oh my, the infamouse agile tantra. Real world examples:
"this_is_the_variable_I_use_to_count_from_0_to_100" or
"get_milliseconds_from_timestamp()".
> I like using short phrases, and sometimes I use poor grammar because it
> supports consistency between similar items.
Lucky you, poor grammar is at least the same language. Most programmers in this
part of the world use their mother tonge ("german" ... kind of), english and
sometimes russian/tschech/... I like to add comments in latin when I find more
than 2 languages in on sourcefile :)
Nik
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Re: [DNG] [OT] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 03:58:02PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > With all respect due to your work, I tend to think that with such > expensive and dangerous machines, more investment should be put into > hardware so as to get controllers with a decent ram. And maybe the > firmware could take safety action when software crashes. Sure, but I'm not the boss :-) > Similarly, more investment should be put in software so as to make a > review of available languages suited for mssion-critical applications > and invest in learning the chosen language. C and C++ are so error-prone > that they are really not suited. Well, you can implement bugs in any kind of language. To be honest, crashes are the most easy ones to find. I know there are other languages outside but here applies the same as above: I'm not the one to decide. I can just give hints and try to push in some direction. But embedded software development is still driven by myths like "C is faster than C++" and its hard overcome these. Maybe a generation thing. My personal way to push through this is to run as much (automated) firmware tests in our hardware-in-the-loop test system as possible. And to have a testcase for every single requirement, situation, sequence or ever seen bug in the software. We end up to have 20-30 testruns a day distributed among different test setups, SoC cpu generations, operating systems. The only missing thing is kind of developer slap robot to punish the developer who made the bad commit automatically :-) > This went far off topic. I have more on the initial topic but am > getting tired (~: Haha, sure :-) cheers, Andreas -- gnuPG keyid: 8C2BAF51 fingerprint: 28EE 8438 E688 D992 3661 C753 90B3 BAAA 8C2B AF51 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Starting outline for the DNG Safe Programmer Certificate
Once this gets complex enough it'll need to be self-hosting in a sense; check the rules against the rules -- de-duplicate, simplify, add documentation, etc. :) Internal consistency? I don't know the correct term offhand. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:33:10 +0200 al3xu5 wrote: > 11) Document and document and document all the code (vars, functions, > errors etc. ... all) It was mentioned earlier; variables and functions wouldn't need much (if any) documentation if they were long and descriptive. I like using short phrases, and sometimes I use poor grammar because it supports consistency between similar items. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
<--snip->> > > > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every > > > > corner case, > > > > You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device in > > > > existence on the installation media. > > Hi, > > let's add this up for example for amd64 > > kernel 48 MB > firmware-linux-free 19.2 KB > > There no more interesting packages in my Synaptic kernel and modules section > if we > assume that a install iso ships just one kernel. > In the kernel and modules (contrib) section there a few packages not more > then 20MB. > in the kernel and modules (non-free) section about 50 more packages about 206 > MB. > Some 300 MB in total, where are all the GBs? > Even if we add DKMS and compilers which I skipped how much GBs will them be?. > > What am I missing? All the 'other' Drivers that people are complaining are NOT in the netinstall ISO's. I don't understand the point you are making in adding up the Drivers that *are* included. mount -o loop devuan_beowulf_3.1.0_amd64-netinstall.iso /mnt/tmp find /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/ -type f -name "firmware-*" /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43legacy-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/f/firmware-free/firmware-linux-free_3.4_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc-dbgsym_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-adi_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-amd-graphics_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-atheros_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2x_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-brcm80211_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-cavium_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intel-sound_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intelwimax_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ipw2x00_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ivtv_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-iwlwifi_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-libertas_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-misc-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-myricom_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netronome_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netxen_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qcom-media_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qlogic_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ralink_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-realtek_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-samsung_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-siano_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ti-connectivity_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/z/zd1211-firmware/firmware-zd1211_1.5-6_all.deb publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
On 7/29/21 9:13 AM, tempforever wrote: Is this commandment (the code of one subroutine fitting into one screen) an absolute rule? What about, for example, assembly-language programming? Must I buy a bigger screen? :-) I will admit that I do very little assembly anymore, so this wouldn't affect me much now. I have many routines in C that take up many lines (more than a screen). I guess I could "compress" them into fewer lines since the language allows for that, but there goes the readability! Personally, I fail on this point many times. Sometimes I use more instructions than required just to make it more perspicuous what the code is doing, but I suppose that is breaking rule #1 then! tito via Dng wrote: I think the idea that is being express could be better stated. The "rule" that the subroutine / function / method should fit on one screen is very much dependent on the size of the monitor, the orientation (landscape or portrait) , and the size of the font used (some of us old farts need a BIGGER font). I think what tito was trying to say was, like all things *nix, the method should do one things and do it well. Again, basic principles, KISS Josef -- Josef Grosch| Another day closer | jgro...@mooseriver.com | to Redwood Heaven | Berkeley, Ca. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
Is this commandment (the code of one subroutine fitting into one screen) an absolute rule? What about, for example, assembly-language programming? Must I buy a bigger screen? :-) I will admit that I do very little assembly anymore, so this wouldn't affect me much now. I have many routines in C that take up many lines (more than a screen). I guess I could "compress" them into fewer lines since the language allows for that, but there goes the readability! Personally, I fail on this point many times. Sometimes I use more instructions than required just to make it more perspicuous what the code is doing, but I suppose that is breaking rule #1 then! tito via Dng wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:07:01 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > >> tito via Dng said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 08:26:03 +0200 >> >> >>> Ten Commandments >>> >>> 1) use the least amount of code possible >>> 2) try harder and go to point 1 >>> 3) if the code doesn't fit into one screen go to point 2 >> Do you mean if the code OF ONE SUBROUTINE doesn't fit into one screen, >> go to point 2? > Yes. I have a big screen nowadays > >> Thanks, >> >> SteveT >> >> Steve Litt >> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful >> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Nasty Linux systemd security bug revealed
Tue, 27 Jul 2021 07:31:12 -0700 - Josef Grosch : > On 7/26/21 11:26 PM, tito via Dng wrote: > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:53:02 -0400 > > Steve Litt wrote: > > > >> Hendrik Boom said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:21:24 -0400 > >> > >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:48:53AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Andreas Messer said on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:38:23 +0200 > > > > My feeling is, that you can not simply teach someone how to write > > safe software. > Why not? You can teach a person to do anything else. But maybe not > in college, because college is built to make money, not to teach. > Consider the average textbook and compare to the average "For > Dummies" book. The former makes the subject matter look incredibly > complex, justifying the professor. The latter makes it easy to > learn. > > What is needed is a curated document explaining the five or ten or > twenty things you need to do to be secure, and then how to achieve > them in a practical world. Let's start with input field cleansing > and protection from errant pointers and buffer overflow. There are > many more: > >>> Knowing you, you probably already have a draft of such a document > >>> lying around. > >> Not that I know of. That's why I'm starting at the level of a simple > >> list. > >> > >> SteveT > >> > >> Steve Litt > >> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the > >> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques > > Hi, > > > > Ten Commandments > > > >1) use the least amount of code possible > >2) try harder and go to point 1 > >3) if the code doesn't fit into one screen go to point 2 > >4) always initialize your vars at declaration time > >5) always set your vars to NULL after freeing them > >6) always check error codes of the functions you call and something > > appropriate 7) add comments about what and why you did (that ugly hack) > >8) use meaningful (to others) names for your functions and vars > >9) your code must be readable to others like a children's book > > 10) if you don't know how to solve it, look what others did, then do > > it your way (or forget Ctrl-C) > > > > these are the few rules I used when I did a little programming in the > > past. So tell me yours... > > > > Ciao, > > Tito > > > > I've done a fair bit of programming in my career, (FORTRAN, COBOL, C, > Pascal, Java, Perl, Python) and I've also have my rules to programming. > > > 1) KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Clever code always comes back to bite > you in the ass. Simplicity is a beautiful thing. > > 2) White space is free, use it to make the code readable. > > 3) Pick a coding style and stick to it, I personally prefer the One True > coding style. Most languages have a tool like Beautify that can be > configured to format your code to your coding style. > > 4) If a block of code gets repeated 2 or more time break it out as a > function or a method. > > 5) Most languages have a Lint type tool, use it often. > > 6) Use the system and languages libraries. Never try to re-write them, > it will only lead to more bugs and rabbit holes. Same goes for libraries > from other projects, they have had the benefit of many eyes looking at > their code. > > 7) Pay attention to the scope of variables and functions. > > 8) Use a revision control system like Git to check code in on a regular > basis into a branch for a coding session, not into the main branch. > Working in a branch lets you figure out what really works and only when > everything is correct then merge into the main branch. I usually do a > pull at the beginning of a coding session and a push at the end. > > > I'm sure I have more but I'm low on coffee. 9) Write code to debug and log 10) Handle all kind of errors 11) Document and document and document all the code (vars, functions, errors etc. ... all) 12) Write and run accurate tests for each routine and the whole code 13) Clearly specify the license(s) for each piece of code ... sure there is more but now I am low on coffee too... regards al3xu5 -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgpxxsb4icXXG.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi, g4sra via Dng wrote: > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > installation media such as a USB stick. > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > when prompted! > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever > again! (Windows NT anybody?). that's a bit an excuse and also extremely inconvenient. Since downloading of that firmware is not certain an eeasy procedure for the website. I bet many of the essential drivers could fit on the DVD, we are not speaking of floppies here. Also, most essentially, it is a matter of network driver, the rest can stay on the non-free repository. Riccardo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:43:00 + g4sra via Dng wrote: > On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 6:58 AM, tito via Dng > wrote: > > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:26:07 + > > g4sra via Dng dng@lists.dyne.org wrote: > > > <--snip--> > > > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > > > installation media such as a USB stick. > > > > > Hi > > > > > The user most of the time doesn't even know which driver or firmware blob > > he needs so this is not a solution > > (unless you know how to scan dmesg...to spot the trouble). > > > > > Better would be to tell them: > > 1. minimal install, netinstall isos/usb images are for advanced users as > > they could miss firmware/drivers and you are on your own. > > 2. full install CD/DVD/usb images contain all available firmware/drivers > > and give best results (plus initial opt out of non-free stuff defaulting > > to: I want it) > > Note the line following in my original text > > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every > > > corner case, > You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device in > existence on the installation media. Hi, let's add this up for example for amd64 kernel 48 MB firmware-linux-free 19.2 KB There no more interesting packages in my Synaptic kernel and modules section if we assume that a install iso ships just one kernel. In the kernel and modules (contrib) section there a few packages not more then 20MB. in the kernel and modules (non-free) section about 50 more packages about 206 MB. Some 300 MB in total, where are all the GBs? Even if we add DKMS and compilers which I skipped how much GBs will them be?. What am I missing? Ciao, Tito > > > > put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > > > when prompted! > > > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's > > > ever again! (Windows NT anybody?). > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi, Steve Litt wrote: > I hate the preceding hassle. Every Linux distro's install media should > have all drivers available during installation. After installation, if > the user wishes to remove all non-free from his computer, he can do so. > Or, the installation process can come with an "include nonfree drivers > and blobs" switch that defaults to "yes". > > Some people believe the worst sin is to have anything non-free on your > system. That's their prerogative. But adopting a zero-tolerance for > nonfree during install drives people away from free software in droves. > The perfect is the enemy of the good. I 100% agree. This firmware issue is a hassle, but especially with laptops, often there is no big choice. Ideology doesn't get you far. I agree with a toggle, a dialog box, warning "try with non-free" ? Of coruse, the ideal world doesn't need it, but I guess once you have a piece of hwardware that needs that crap, what can you do? Most people will "accept anyway, just to get it working" or accept another OS. Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. In the same model manufacturer can put in "equivalent cards", they just need to match the spec, not the chipset. Of course I prefer promoting hardware which is more open, but then... once you have a system you want to use ii. I don't know what these diehards do.. try 100 systems to get one working? > > I don't care what Debian does, I'd suggest that Devuan's default > install include all the non-free drivers, firmware and blobs that > Devuan has, and just have a way to shut it off for the more > Stallmanesque among us. > > Riccardo, I love how you got around this problem. I never thought of > installing from DVD and then grabbing Wifi after installation's > complete. I'd never thought of that: I just used a different distro if > install didn't work. It is only possible if you have a second computer :) With just one, in this condition you are "stuck" Steve, I am relatively stubborn being in several Open Source project, having a lot of different test hardware for the community and not being a newbie. I started with the idea that this would be a test, even if it one of my best laptops. But you are right, probably most people will just slap on SuSE or Ubuntu and it would work. It is some work, but giving this option would improve Devuan. Exactly as Devuan would be appealing if it could maintain more Xorg video drivers which still exist but are "deprecated" by official Debian. Since Devuan is lighter, it appeals vintage systems - this is how I started with it. Riccardo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 6:58 AM, tito via Dng wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:26:07 + > g4sra via Dng dng@lists.dyne.org wrote: > > <--snip--> > > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > > installation media such as a USB stick. > > Hi > > The user most of the time doesn't even know which driver or firmware blob he > needs so this is not a solution > (unless you know how to scan dmesg...to spot the trouble). > > Better would be to tell them: > 1. minimal install, netinstall isos/usb images are for advanced users as > they could miss firmware/drivers and you are on your own. > 2. full install CD/DVD/usb images contain all available firmware/drivers and > give best results (plus initial opt out of non-free stuff defaulting to: I > want it) Note the line following in my original text > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every > > corner case, You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device in existence on the installation media. > > put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > > when prompted! > > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever > > again! (Windows NT anybody?). > publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
