Re: [DNG] Linux-related critique [Rant]
Am 18.08.2015 21:12 schrieb Rainer Weikusat: That's how System/360 worked (presumably), that's how VMS worked (presumably), that's how OS/2 and Windows worked and that's what systemd strives to become and it's not modern but stone-age conservatism: Everything which happened in the 1970s was a grotesque travesty of the common sense of our oldest ancestors, let's shed these ancient legacy to travel back to the golden age of the even more distant past! I don't want to be teleported back into 1956 because someone has a problem with accepting technical progress ... Oh. I'm soo sorry if you feel imprisoned in this remote era... I'm glad to inform you that you're perfectly free to go anywhere you presume technical progress is. Bye. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux-related critique [Rant]
Rainer, I'm sorry for posting the wrong quote header in my previous message. Of course I was quoting DStoicheff, not you. Best, Philip ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Init scripts in packages
Am 06.08.2015 17:49 schrieb Steve Litt: Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org wrote: I have never said, am not saying, and probably never will say that systemd is any good. It's not, and Lennart and Kay should go back to engineering school, :s/engineering school/kindergarten/ Hell no, that wouldn't be good for the other kids. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
Am 09.07.2015 13:12 schrieb KatolaZ: That's why I, the caveman, has always suggested to accept only text emails in public MLs, and send the rest to /dev/null, including html and attachments... And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years... Agreed. I *always* disable HTML viewing writing in my e-mail clients. No mercy. Another Caveman ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Lennart reacts to the release of Devuan
Now Mr Poettering will have another pretext (if not a reason) for whining and complaining that everybody hates him. This might also make him feel way more important than he actually is (Ok, it seems that he already does). That said, I admit that the video made me ROFL. Inappropriate? Perhaps, given previous situations. I suggest that this thread is left to its quick and peaceful death. Btw. Bruno Ganz was great in that movie. Just my few thoughts. Best, Philip Am 31.05.2015 06:21 schrieb Init Freedom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cdEFF-ttLw May the source be with you, gents. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.
I've read the mentioned thread, although not completely yet, and I appreciated Jude's and nextime's interventions. Guys, you met TobiSGD, who should be a LQ moderator but is also an active systemd advocate, according to what I've seen in the past (and more than ever on that very thread). Unfortunately, several systemd-related threads (as well as others about other controversial topics) have been turned into disgusting cesspits quite recently on LQ, hence I can understand why other moderators like unSpawn prefer not to see anything like that anymore. Too bad that the Devuan thread was closed down, but IMHO it was not because of Devuan as such: somebody, apparently, is not willing to clean up heaps of trolls' rubbish once again. Best, Philip Am 10.05.2015 23:17 schrieb James Powell: Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off discussing the Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate in over the repeated squabbling, though honestly, very little was done other than the people who seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's developers lack of choice of systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking about funding and other repeatedly defended arguments which turned the discussion of Devuan into a defense of Devuan. Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd topics since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in attacking the stance of being anti-systemd rather than the principles of being anti-systemd for software sanity reasons. Very little real discussion of systemd's merits and technicals (if topics even can be soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due to the crowd there. This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from the pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions on those topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in that same direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when that topic is brought up. I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic and finding it locked out. -Jim ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
My response to Coker's ill-conceived rant is still awaiting moderation on his blog. I'm posting it here verbatim: Philip Lacroix Your comment is awaiting moderation. May 3, 2015 at 23:31 Dear Mr Coker If your intention was to honestly analize the social issue related to SystemD, then you trashed a good opportunity with your own hands, by posting an ambiguous, childish, superficial and offensive statement about users who dislike SystemD and allegedly hate women. That was not a very intelligent move on your part. It doesn't make sense, now, to talk about correlations and try to say that people have misunderstood you. If you want to be involved in a constructive conversation, then please don't post stupid things like this in the first place, don't spread FUD, stop calling hater everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, and don't play the victim when people respond to you accordingly. I've seen quite a bit of this on the Internet, and it's always the same pattern. Now what's next? Are we going to be informed that there's a correlation between people who dislike SystemD and those who eat children, dance with the Devil and drink turnip juice? Support your SystemD init if you like it, but please refrain from writing manipulative rants and insults about people who don't, especially if they are doing something useful and constructive on their own. Who are you to tell people what they should do? Who are you, for instance, to denigrate the Devuan project, its volunteers, and everything else that doesn't match your personal opinion about init systems and project forks? The Debian technical committee decided? OK, then let other people make *their own* decisions, as the Debian committee is not the axis mundi. Best regards, Philip Lacroix Am 02.05.2015 18:03 schrieb DLL Hell: etbe.coker.com.au/2015/04/26/anti-systemd-people/ [... rant ...] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Am 01.03.2015 00:04 schrieb T.J. Duchene: As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted so far into standard distributions that it is hard to extract them. As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair comparison. Ultimately, the whole problem revolves around the idea of packaging. Personally, I've come to believe that the existing idea of package management is more damaging to Linux than systemd itself. If the Debian packaging system separated the actual init files from binary package files, then majority of developers making Jesse packages that assume systemd rather than System 5 would be non-issue. I'm not sure that I agree with this. Packaging is, in the end, just a practical way to manage compiled software on your system. On the other hand, what a given software does, and how that software is tied to other software, is inherently independent from which package management system is being used. If software A needs software B because its developer decided to rely on software B, then it doesn't matter whether the downstream packager decides to put B as a dependency or not. However, if he doesn't, then software A most probably won't work as intended, if it'll work at all. Of course packaging, especially when automatic dependency resolution is implemented, will introduce loads of possible decisions that can be made by downstream packagers, but this is a completely different story, let alone the so-called tasks, which I admit having always skipped while using Debian: in fact I wanted to decide by myself which were the defaults I needed. That being said, the Grand Unifying Init System's attempt to hijack a large part of the free software ecosystem, by imposing itself as a hard dependency, is technically independent from downstream packaging decisions, even if it does influence those decisions. I guess that far from focusing on subjective topics, DeVuan is forking DeBian itself right now, while encouraging objective and balanced discussion, which is welcome and a pleasure to read. Fair enough, Philip. Who am I to say it does not have entertainment value? Not only entertainment value: educational and *ethical* value as well. As a person who has written C code and used Unixes for about 20+ years, I see some technical benefit in systemd's approach. Just because systemd itself has design flaws does not mean the entire concept is bad. The fact that I come right out and say so, even if it just happens to go against the majority sensibility is: with blunt honestly, not my problem. No one ever said that its entire concept is bad. Moreover, I think it is kind of useless to insist with this here, since Devuan is intentionally, consciously and rationally avoiding systemd, no matter what its technical merits are. I'm not really looking for a debate on the topic, because in the grand scheme of things my opinion does not amount to much, really. Nor should it. You should always make up your own mind. Of course. If you'd rather not hear it, I can certainly go elsewhere or refrain from posting, but I personally do not believe that Devuan needs yes men (or yes-women). Well, the decision is completely up to you. I am a guest on this list, and I'm a peaceful fellow, hence it is not my goal, nor my right, to send anyone away, whatever opinions they have. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of pro/anti systemd debates on the Web already, so it makes no sense to replicate them here, a systemd-free project by definition. This one seems to have been inspired by Microsoft's ancient anti-Linux FUD marketing campaign - you know, the one with a long-proboscized monster-penguin. Not at all. It is simply a comment on the collective nature of Linux. Sometimes design by committee is not the best approach. That's simply life. That I call Linux a Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the number of humps chosen by committee but endearing at the same time is nothing more than a recognition that it has flaws. There are precisely zero perfect software projects in the world. Having had this much time in the field, I simply have no illusions about it is all, and I feel free to say so. Agreed, but one can find drawbacks in every approach, and again, it makes little sense to reiterate this here, since it is a well known factor which can potentially affect just about every situation where humans interact. Most of all, it doesn't seem to be a problem affecting Devuan very much. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it hardly seems a secret to me. It doesn't bother me, I just find it pretty useless and redundant, and not much constructive: I guess we already know that the Open Source community is full of a**holes, etc. etc. Have a great day, Philip! =) Have a great day too, t.j. Philip
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Am 27.02.2015 21:18 schrieb T.J. Duchene: With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called for here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago. I wouldn't call personality clash the case of a user having specific problems with systemd's networking tentacles on Debian Jessie, don't you think? Anyway, I guess that far from focusing on subjective topics, DeVuan is forking DeBian itself right now, while encouraging objective and balanced discussion, which is welcome and a pleasure to read. With no offense or judgment intended, I'd rather not see Debian's mud at our door. The reason we left was to get away from it. Devuan does not need to justify its own existence. Debian's mud at our door? The reason we left? With all due respect and no judgement intended, your sudden use of the royal We on this list is quite surprising, especially since about three weeks ago you wrote the following comments, which strikingly resemble to what can be read on Poettering's blog, which is being copypasted around the web by many well-disguised Yes-Men: Funny thing. I hear a lot of complaining about systemd, and yes, i think some of it is justified, but consider this... Rather than joining the project and steering it in another direction, or creating patches to fix what you do not like, everyone is just standing about complaining. (...) The reality is that no matter what anyone does, systemd is here to stay (...) There is no escaping this fact of life. Linux as an OS is developed in a hodgepodge of distributions. The reason systemd has found such wide adoption is that it simplifies their work. Quite frankly, it sounds like you're actually trying to *pose* as a Devuan supporter, which you seem not to be. The reality is that Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the number of humps chosen by committee. For all of that, it is rather endearing - because you can make of it what you will. No one can charge you in court or judge less of your character for doing your own thing. This one seems to have been inspired by Microsoft's ancient anti-Linux FUD marketing campaign - you know, the one with a long-proboscized monster-penguin. However, let's paraphrase it: of course Linux is free software released under the GPL and similar licenses, therefore you can make of it what you will... unless somebody manages to nail it down through some subtle and nasty agenda which makes said licenses useless. I've had Debian, RedHat, and just about every major distribution grace my system at some point. With every single one of them, without exception, has had issues of some kind or another. Some of which were major showstoppers. Some didn't even boot, others were so poorly assembled that you'd think the packagers were drunken monkeys. Unfortunately I cannot brag such a catastrophic experience with Linux distributions myself, but that's probably my fault. Anyway, your comment sounds like yet another iteration of the Linux is broken mantra, hence I encourage you to jump on (or return to) the Grand Unifying Init System bandwagon. All of this started long before systemd was ever created, and will certainly be around long after systemd is forgotten. Yeah. However, this is (again) just another way to say That's the way it is, or So goes the world, while dismissing specific problems by pushing them inside the foggy and much undetermined concept of life. Philip ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
Am 28.12.2014 22:57 schrieb Klaus Hartnegg: OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde. Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably server admins. Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably care less about the init system than server admins do. I'm mostly a CLI desktop user and administrator of a few machines. I do care a lot about the init system. According to what I could read on forums at LinuxQuestions.org, there are many desktop users who do, especially when one particular init system is trying to screw the whole distributions ecosystem. I was a loyal Debian (stable) user for several years before switching to Slackware two years ago, and I still can't believe to what they did to such a venerable and rocky project. Again, not only server admins do care about their init system. Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop users are interested in Devuan? What about doing a poll, say, at LinuxQuestions.org? I guess there are many Debian users and admins who are not happy at all with the new state of affairs. I guess they might welcome a Debian fork, i.e. a step backward to sanity. That said, my hat's off to you, Devuan guys (and gals, if any). Best wishes, Philip ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
