Re: [DNG] Adjusting LCD backlight in XFCE4

[Rob Owens]

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Lars Noodén <lars.noo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 05/17/2017 06:08 PM, Rob Owens wrote:
> > On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Lars Noodén <lars.noo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 05/04/2017 03:42 PM, Lars Noodén wrote:
> >>> I'm having trouble adjusting the backlight on my LCD screen in RC 1
> with
> >>> XFCE4.  No matter what I've tried so far, it stays where it is.  With
> >>> Ubuntu 16.04, things are pre-configured and it is just a matter of
> >>> pressing the right function buttons.  However, with Devuan Jessie RC 1
> >>> the right commands are hard  to figure out.
> >>>
> >>> Here is what I've tried so far to change the backlight intensity.  None
> >>> have any effect:
> >>>
> >>> $ xrandr --output default --brightness 0
> >>> xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
> >>
> >
> > I did this just yesterday on a laptop running Funtoo with Fluxbox, where
> > the built-in function keys for dimming did not work.  But I specified a
> > decimal, like this:
> >
> > xrandr --output default --brightness .7
> >
> > That worked for me.  Maybe the problem is that you specified zero for the
> > brightness.
>
> Thanks for the reply.  It seems that I cannot get anywhere with xrandr
> on my system:
>
> $ xrandr --output default --brightness .7
> xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
> $ xrandr --output default --brightness .1
> xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
> $ xrandr --output default --brightness .9
> xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
> $ xrandr --output default --brightness 1.9
> xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
> $ xrandr --output default --brightness 2
> xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
> $ xrandr --current
> xrandr: Failed to get size of gamma for output default
> Screen 0: minimum 1920 x 1080, current 1920 x 1080, maximum 1920 x 1080
> default connected 1920x1080+0+0 0mm x 0mm
>1920x1080 77.00*
>
> Are there any preparations that need to be made first?
>

I didn't need to do anything except run that command, making sure to
specify the correct video device.  I ran 'xrandr' with no arguments to get
a list of the devices on my laptop.  I believe one of them said "connected"
after it, so that's the one I used.

Again, this was on a Funtoo system.  Unfortunately I do not have a Devuan
system available to test right now.
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Re: [DNG] Adjusting LCD backlight in XFCE4

[Rob Owens]

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Lars Noodén  wrote:

> On 05/04/2017 03:42 PM, Lars Noodén wrote:
> > I'm having trouble adjusting the backlight on my LCD screen in RC 1 with
> > XFCE4.  No matter what I've tried so far, it stays where it is.  With
> > Ubuntu 16.04, things are pre-configured and it is just a matter of
> > pressing the right function buttons.  However, with Devuan Jessie RC 1
> > the right commands are hard  to figure out.
> >
> > Here is what I've tried so far to change the backlight intensity.  None
> > have any effect:
> >
> > $ xrandr --output default --brightness 0
> > xrandr: Gamma size is 0.
>

I did this just yesterday on a laptop running Funtoo with Fluxbox, where
the built-in function keys for dimming did not work.  But I specified a
decimal, like this:

xrandr --output default --brightness .7

That worked for me.  Maybe the problem is that you specified zero for the
brightness.
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Rob Owens]

I left Debian for Funtoo and Devuan.  The reason was systemd.  Debian paid
lip service to the alternate init systems, but in reality systemd was
slowly but surely becoming required.  I left because it was clear they were
going in a different direction than I wanted to follow.

You can include me in your list if you want.  But I think for a Debian user
who is currently questioning the need for systemd, knowing his alternatives
is much more useful than knowing that I (some guy they don't know) stopped
using Debian.

-Rob

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> There's yet another systemd thread on Debian-User, started by a guy who
> wrote an intelligent question about why there's no choice of init at
> install time:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00472.html
>
> After a little back and forth, a guy who claims to have used Linux for
> 20 years without knowing there's more than one init system, and because
> of his personal anecdote he thinks there shouldn't be a choice and says
> "Please end this Diskussion and get on with important things."
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00514.html
>
> A few posts later, a guy basically says "put up or shut up" to the
> proposition that the reason there's so little request for sans-systemd
> in Debian is because those who don't like systemd moved on:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00540.html
>
> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> on it please.
>
> We have our quiet sans-systemd corners, and right now they're
> comfortable, but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
> consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice, and they
> still have the power to take our init systems away from us, as a
> practical matter, so we still need to tell the truth to bullshit like
> that on the Debian-User list right now. Obviously there's a technical
> component to software choice, but forget at your peril that there's
> also a political component.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> March 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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Re: [DNG] eudev status

[Rob Owens]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 10:56:58AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote:
> I installed jessie-beta on a disk some time ago, and off hand it boots
> and runs just fine. However I didn't migrate it to from my current Debian
> Wheezy because I was waiting for the eudev/vdev/udev issue to be
> resolved, figuring that migrating up from present udev to one of the
> others could well be traumatic. I didn't want to do it on a system
> on which I relied for work.
> 
> Two questions, if I may:
> 
> Is eudev being actively worked on, and is it likely to be in
> the upcoming  non-beta Jessie Devuan?

vdev was/is being developed by a Devuan user specifically with Devuan in
mind.  eudev, as others have already stated, is a Gentoo project.  I'm
not sure the status of vdev.
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Re: [DNG] devuan-discuss is not useful, quite the opposite

[Rob Owens]

A solution might be to:

1)  rename this list if deemed necessary
2)  route all devuan-discuss emails to dng

This will combine the two lists without requiring users to make any
changes.  If the name change is deemed necessary, the new name can be
promoted on the website, but the old email addresses will continue to
work.  At worst, existing users may need to update email filters to look
for a "from address" of new_n...@devuan.org instead of dng@lists.dyne.org.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Jaromil  wrote:

>
> One thing I learned from Permaculture design principles, which somehow
> deal very much with community and on many levels: never touch unless
> you have a reason to. A single "I don't like" is too subjective and
> won't ever become an executive reason nor decision. you can blow *me*
> away if I'll ever do that, just by being one of the many stewards
> having access to some servers.
>
> in order to leave space for our community to act organically, we'll
> follow this principle and change as less as possible. back to dng: its
> is an address we won't change just because one of us don't like it.
>
> meanwhile, the suggestion to notice devuan-discuss is good, lets do
> that. thanks hellekin for carefully updating the website!
> I also very much appreciate the talk.devuan.org documentation platform
> and it is true that's better communicated as such, rather than a forum
>
> at last, just like with the friendsofdevuan wiki and other platforms,
> if someone feels like volunteering time and gear to run a phpbb forum
> in a reliable way, we surely won't overlook it, but include it in the
> available options to get in touch and support it as we can. It can be
> a fun adventure, but beware it may become very big
>
>
> ciao
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Mass bug filing: use and misuse of dbus-launch (dbus-x11)

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 3:53 AM, Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Joel Roth (jo...@pobox.com):
> > On my system,
> >
> > apt-get -s remove dbus
> >
> > The following packages will be REMOVED:
>
> And what actually breaks if you use equivs to lie and say it's still
> present?
>

I haven't tested on Devuan but on my Funtoo system, LightDM does not work
unless dbus is started.  Note that this is not a package dependency issue.
Dbus is installed, but if it is not running prior to starting LightDM,
LightDM will give me a black screen with a blinking cursor.
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Re: [DNG] Openrc

[Rob Owens]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

>
> Does OpenRC do the conditional starts?


Yes, it does.  See "The depend function" here:
http://www.funtoo.org/Package:OpenRC
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Re: [DNG] OT: true read-only disk

[Rob Owens]

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

> OT, but there seem to be a few people who understand such in-depth stuff
> here ;-)
>
> I'm in the process of recovering (with ddrescue) files of a failing drive
> - no backups as "it's only TV" recordings and I can't afford the disk space
> anyway. It's going better than I expected with most of the files (typically
> anything between 1G and 4G in size) reading without any errors - retries on
> the disk, but no actual read errors.
> Tedious because when the drive warms up, it "goes titsup*" (producing lots
> of DID_BAD_TARGET errors) and I have to unplug it and let it cool down
> before restarting the recovery process.
>

I don't know the answer to your read-only question.  But having done some
data recovery in the past, I've found that attaching the drive via USB and
sitting the drive in the freezer during recovery can help in situations
like this.  Also, besides ddrescue you can also take a look at photorec
(part of the testdisk package).

Good luck!

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] vdev - udev is a dead end

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 8:34 AM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

> There was one other thing that came to mind earlier ...
> If ${company} decided to do that, and they had previously distributed
> binaries ... doesn't the GPL mean they are required to provide the sources
> to anyone they've distributed the binaries to ? So removing the sources
> from public repositories would actually be a breach of the GPL (given some
> limitations regarding timing).
> And that raises an interesting problem for other people distributing
> binaries. If (say) I were distributing binaries for ${foo} and relying on
> (say) a git repository for providing the source - where would that leave me
> if those git sources suddenly disappear ?
> Certainly something for anyone building systems to bear in mind. I know
> lots of people who take the attitude - don't keep it, you can download it
> again.
>

My understanding is that the source must be made available for 3 years
after the last binary was made available.
See Section 6:
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Rob Owens]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Simon Walter  wrote:

> On 07/26/2016 12:28 PM, Brad Campbell wrote:
>
>> On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote:
>>
>> Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out
>>> what their users wanted and who were their typical users?
>>> Desktop/personal vs. server/professional?
>>>
>>
> yes/no?
>
> I would have to say no.  I was on debian-user, and saw no poll.  There was
a lot of discussion, and the anti-systemd folks were largely ignored or
told "go away, you're bothering us".  I subscribed to debian-devel to
monitor and discuss the situation, but my impression there was that the
opinions of non-developers were largely ignored.

There were a couple people who I heard arguing for systemd because of some
particular useful feature.  But most of the arguments that I heard from
developers in favor of systemd was that it would be too hard not to adopt
systemd as default.

We all know that systemd's plan all along has been to make resistance
futile, so I won't get into that.  But when somebody tries to tie my hands,
I try to stop it.  Unfortunately most of the Debian developers (at least
the vocal ones) did not share my view.  It was very disheartening to see,
and it really changed my opinion of the project as a whole.

For the record, I ran (past tense) Debian on desktops, laptops, and
servers.  The obvious attempt by systemd to make itself a requirement was
the first thing that made me suspicious about the project.  I've since
become more informed on the issue of init systems and now have many
technical reasons to dislike it as well.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:12 PM,  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On the road to a viable jwm desktop in devuan, i am using/trying
> open-rc. In advance, my excuses if what follows is not sufficiently
> technical.
>
> To the point: From Manjaro-OpenRC i knew openrc as a clean and logical
> system to manage daemons & processes. By far, from a user point of
> view, superior to sysvinit. Now, the transition from sysvinit to openrc
> in devuan is mostly painless. BUT: I'm under the impression in
> devuan/debian openrc works only as a kind of wrapper around sysvinit.
>
> An example: I installed a zram script (still when i had sysvinit as
> init manager). Now, this script is configured to openrc in this way:
>
> "rc-update add zram boot" (which adds the zram daemon to the boot level
> to have it ready early; could be added also to default). Now, when i
> remove it by "rc-update del zram boot" it is not even more present for
> openrc - but nevertheless, it is still started at any reboot. For me,
> that means, openrc is *NOT* the real init manager - at least in its
> debian implementation.
>

You got me interested and I just installed OpenRC on Devuan Jessie.  I got
the following message:

**
*** WARNING: if you are replacing sysv-rc by OpenRC, then you must ***
*** reboot immediately using the following command:***
for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ;
/etc/init.d/$s stop; done
*** once rebooted, you could safely backup and remove /etc/rc?.d   ***
**

Did you follow those instructions?

I found that before I removed /etc/rc?.d, I was still running sysv init
(but most/all services did not start -- ssh for example).  After a
subsequent reboot, I was running OpenRC.

I'm still testing it, though...


>
> It would be nice to have openrc implemented as it is in gentoo or
> manjaro: with the to essential directories:
>
> /etc/conf.d (where all the scripts for openrc are configured)
> /etc/init.d (where the scripts that are configured in /etc/conf.d sit)
>

I see I have no /etc/conf.d.  To me this means I really do not have OpenRC,
as conf.d is one of the key benefits of OpenRC in my opinion.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Adam Borowski  wrote:

> Nowadays to find a regular person who doesn't own multiple computers, you
> need to go to Africa or rural India.
>
> I'd say it's safe to assume that a person authorized to login on the
> console
> (either text or graphical) is supposed to be at least an operator, if not
> the owner, of the machine.  For weird setups like a kiosk you need to
> configure access anyway.  All that talk about multiseat being important
> or even relevant today is IMO bullshit.
>

I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for me*.  I
looked into it a long time ago and decided that LTSP was more
straightforward.  These days, prices of hardware have come down enough that
other people replace their computers after only a few years and I get their
hand-me-downs.  This has made even LTSP not worth my while.  But I have no
idea what the situation is like for people in other parts of the world, or
for people in my part of the world with fewer financial resources.
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Re: [DNG] Signature verification

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Paweł Cholewiński" 
> Hi List,
> how to verify that SHA256SUMS file
> (https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/) is not changed (how to
> check its signature).

In the directory which contains both the downloaded iso and the SHA256SUMS
file, run this command:

sha256sum --check SHA256SUMS

That will output a check for each checksum in that file, so you will get
a lot of "file not found" messages.  Look for the one for your downloaded
iso, which will hopefully say "OK".

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] booting old system on a different partition

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Peter Olson" 

> So, I installed the Devuan beta a few days ago and it is great, rather it 
> almost
> mostly works.  I probably need an audio driver installed.  I want to see what
> the old system had installed.
> 
> So I cleared out another partition and moved the backup of my Debian 8.3 onto
> it.  Ran update-grub, which found the backup in its new location.
> 
> But, when I try to boot it grub is confused and is pinned to the old UUID of 
> the
> root filesystem.  (I have already updated /etc/fstab in the restored backup, 
> but
> it is not even getting that far.)  It just dumps me into busybox saying it 
> can't
> find the root fs.  Gotta love grub, which is useful only when nothing is wrong
> :-)
> 
> Any advice about how to proceed?
> 
If the other advice you got does not work, download super grub2 disk and boot 
from
that.  It will find all your bootable OS's.

http://www.supergrubdisk.org/super-grub2-disk/
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Steve Litt" <sl...@troubleshooters.com>

> On Tue, 3 May 2016 10:06:07 -0400 (EDT)
> Rob Owens <row...@ptd.net> wrote:
> 
>> I agree with putting each init in its own directory, but sysvinit
>> should not own /etc/init.d.  sysvinit stuff should go in /etc/sysvinit
>> and by default /etc/init.d should be a link to /etc/sysvinit/init.d.
>> The reason is that other init systems may expect to own /etc/init.d.
>> For instance, openrc puts all its scripts in /etc/init.d (at least on
>> Funtoo it does).
> 
> I don't remember any other init wanting to use /etc/init.d, EXCEPT
> OpenRC, or EXCEPT when they want to use the sysvinit init scripts, and
> the only one I know that wants to do that is systemd.
> 
> I wouldn't change sysvinit's expected files one little bit. Everyone
> assumes that /etc/init.d belongs exclusively to sysvinit. Any change to
> sysvinit would require lots of testing, and who needs that headache?
> 
Then you would be designing under the assumption that sysvinit is the
"one true way" and that all others must be modified to work around
sysvinit -- an init system that you/we are actively attempting to make
obsolete (eventually) by way of providing all these alternatives.  This 
doesn't make a lick of sense.

>> Even though sysvinit is our default init system these days, we should
>> not design Devuan such that it is difficult to change that in the
>> future.  So put sysvinit stuff in its own directory just like all the
>> other inits.
> 
> If you leave sysvinit's directories exactly as they exist now,
> switching back and forth between sysvinit and runit is trivial. Same is
> true of s6 and Epoch.
> 
It is also trivial to do with a symlink.

> Because OpenRC has seen fit to intermix their init scripts
> with sysvinit's in /etc/init.d, I'd suggest that any files needed by
> OpenRC be kept somewhere besides /etc/init.d.
> 
I have only used openrc on Funtoo, but there is no intermixing with 
sysvinit there.  It is exclusively openrc in /etc/init.d.  Are you using
a distro where /etc/init.d contains both openrc scripts and sysvinit 
scripts?

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Didier Kryn" <k...@in2p3.fr>

> Le 03/05/2016 19:10, Rob Owens a écrit :
>> Yes, but then when an openrc user wants to start/stop a service, he
>> cannot do '/etc/init.d/myservice start' like he could do on any other
>> OS using openrc.  He'd have to do '/etc/openrc/myservice start'.  Not a
>> really big deal, but I think it's undesirable to make Devuan's openrc
>> procedures different (especially when it could be addressed with a
>> simple symlink).
> Normally the admin invokes the service command,
> 
> sudo service ssh restart
> sudo service nginx status
> 
> etc.
> 
> service could probably be modified to talk to the init system in
> charge.

Normally *this* admin never uses the service command because:

1) it is not available on all distros or may not be installed
2) tab completion doesn't always work with the service command (depending
   on the distro, I suppose)
3) tab completion always works when you specify the path to the script
   and you are running a bash shell

Is the service called 'smb' or 'samba'?  Is it 'network' or 'networking'?
That's why tab completion is important to me.  I'm surprised that I seem
to be the only one who thinks this way.
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "KatolaZ" 

> But do we really need all that complication? Couldn't we just leave
> the initscript of each init system in a different directory and *tell
> the init system* where they are to be found? This will allow a much
> easier coexistence of different confs.
> 
> Basically, everything related to sysvinit, stays in /etc/init.d, and
> sysvinit knows it has to look there. OpenRC stuff stays in
> /etc/openrc, and openrc knows it has to look there for its scripts.
> WFTinit stuff will stay in /etc/wtf, and WTFInit knows it has to look
> there for its stuff. We add the next-init-system, it will have its
> scripts in /etc/.

I agree with putting each init in its own directory, but sysvinit
should not own /etc/init.d.  sysvinit stuff should go in /etc/sysvinit
and by default /etc/init.d should be a link to /etc/sysvinit/init.d.
The reason is that other init systems may expect to own /etc/init.d. 
For instance, openrc puts all its scripts in /etc/init.d (at least on 
Funtoo it does).

Even though sysvinit is our default init system these days, we should
not design Devuan such that it is difficult to change that in the
future.  So put sysvinit stuff in its own directory just like all the
other inits.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Blackbox: was: For all you automounter programmers

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Steve Litt" 

> Does Blackbox allow you to designate a tiny strip of the screen to be
> desktop-only so you can click on it? Also, does Blackbox enable you to
> hotkey not only blackbox functions, but also random programs on your
> hard disk? Third, does Blackbox offer some sort of list of all windows,
> sorted by the workspace they're in, and the ability to click one program
> to get to that workspace and have focus on that program?
> 
> The preceding paragraph ennumerates the three reasons I use Openbox,
> and if Blackbox or Fluxbox also has those three assets, I'll explore
> them.

I can answer for Fluxbox:

1)  I accomplish this by putting the following line in ~/.fluxbox/init:
session.screen0.toolbar.widthPercent: 99
That makes the toolbar take up almost the whole width of the screen, but 
it leaves a little space at each end so you can click on the desktop.

1a) But I hotkey the menu anyway, so I rarely use those corners of the 
desktop.  ~/.fluxbox/keys:
Control Mod1 slash :RootMenu

2)  You can hotkey random programs in the ~/.fluxbox/keys file like this:
Control Mod1 x :Exec /usr/bin/xterm

3)  Not sure about this one.  You can set the toolbar to show all windows
on all desktops.  In that case I believe clicking one will bring you to 
that desktop.  But I prefer to have the toolbar show only the windows on
the current desktop.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Matthew Melton" 

> A brief aside.
> Although not an automounter I remember using bbsmount on blackbox. I can't
> remember how to configure it but it sat in the blackbox dock and  if I 
> remember
> and showed icons for all the drives you wanted to show. A click would mount 
> the
> drive and another click would unmount it. I used it for ages , after 
> abandoning
> gnome, as an alternative to  automounting. I believe it works with other 
> window
> managers too, Judging from the man page here
> https://manned.org/bbsmount/d797faf8
> 
> I believe it was a blackbox add-on http://blackboxwm.sourceforge.net/ but the
> add on page is currently showing a 503 service unavailable so can't check.
> The code, if it can be obtained, might prove useful as an alternative or
> optional addition to a slimline CLI automounter. The idea of which I like the
> sound of a lot.

pcmanfm does this as well, though it relies on udisks2 and that now requires
systemd (on Debian, anyway).  I believe Thunar had very similar functionality.
spacefm, as some have mentioned here, also has this functionality but it allows
the use of different backends for performing the mounts.  As I recall, the 
choices were pmount, udevil, udisks, udisks2, and possibly others.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Steve Litt" 

> Do you happen to know a corresponding utility to read/write the label
> on an ext4 formatted thumb drive partition?
> 
e2label /dev/sdXY my_label
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Re: [DNG] Speaking of Window Managers

[Rob Owens]

I use hotkeys extensively in Fluxbox.  Fluxbox allows you to set each
hotkey individually, so you could have Ctrl-Alt-a perform one action 
and Control-Shift-a perform another.  I would like the configuration
to allow variables and multiple hotkeys.  This should be a valid
configuration:

HOTKEY=ctrl-alt
HOTKEY2=ctrl-alt-shift
$HOTKEY-a :Exec /usr/bin/a
$HOTKEY-b :Exec /usr/bin/b
$HOTKEY2-c :Exec /usr/bin/c   
ctrl-shift-d :Exec /usr/bin/d

This would allow users to more easily change which keys enable the 
hotkey action, in order to eliminate conflicts with any particular
software they use.

Note that I don't use the Win/Meta key because I have several keyboards
which do not have that key.

Fluxbox also allows combos like Ctrl-Alt-a Ctrl-Alt-b :Exec /usr/bin/e,
and that is useful for when you assign a hotkey for almost every 
application you use, like I do.

The hotkeys I can no longer do without are:

Move window 1 pixel:
Ctrl-Alt-Shift-{arrow key}

Move window 10 pixels:
Ctrl-Alt-{arrow key}

Resize window 1 pixel:
Ctrl-Alt-Shift-{Home/End/PgUp/PgDown}

Resize window 10 pixels:
Ctrl-Alt-{Home/End/PgUp/PgDown}

-Rob
  

- Original Message -
> From: "Steve Litt" 
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 12:05:50 AM
> Subject: [DNG] Speaking of Window Managers

> Hi all,
> 
> Here's info on dmenu:
> 
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/dmenu
> 
> http://linux.die.net/man/1/dmenu
> 
> http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/201406/201406.htm#use_faster_tools_dmenu
> 
> Just for fun, I'd like some opinions. If a Window Manager were
> integrated with Dmenu (which is trivially easy usually), what hotkeys
> would you recommend, given that keys can be alt, ctrl, shift, alt-ctrl,
> alt-shift, ctrl-shift, and even alt-ctrl-shift?
> 
> Hotkey to bring up Dmenu?
> 
> Hotkey to bring up window list sorted by workspace?
> 
> Hotkey to bring up window manager menu?
> 
> Hotkey to toggle laptop mousepad on and off?
> 
> Hotkey to close a window (Alt+F4 sucks in my opinion)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] what is sssd?

[Rob Owens]

One thing it can be used for is offline authentication for LDAP users.  I am
currently using sssd on a Funtoo laptop for this purpose.  When I have no 
network access (no access to the LDAP server), my users can still log in.

Previously I had used pam-ccreds for this.  Both pam-ccreds and sssd require
changes to the pam.d files in order to work for offline authentication.  I am
not a PAM wizard, so I had a lot of trouble getting this done.  I never really
got it working right with pam-ccreds, but I managed to stumble upon a working
configuration with sssd.  

That is not an endorsement of sssd, necessarily -- I think if I was more 
knowledgeable about PAM I could probably get either one working.  I would 
prefer to use pam-ccreds only because it has a much more limited scope than
sssd seems to have.  If I recall correctly, pam-ccreds needs to be used in
combination with nslcd for offline LDAP authentication.

-Rob

- Original Message -
> From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" 
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 8:23:46 AM
> Subject: [DNG] what is sssd?

> Does anybody know what sssd is good for? I was a bit surprised to see a whole
> bunch of these sssd-something packages in debian, while I was searching for
> sss. It's homepage says:
> 
> "SSSD is a system daemon. Its primary function is to provide access to 
> identity
> and authentication remote resource through a common framework that can provide
> caching and offline support to the system. It provides PAM and NSS modules, 
> and
> in the future will D-BUS based interfaces for extended user information. It
> provides also a better database to store local users as well as extended user
> data.
> 
> Documentation on configuring SSSD in Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Linux is
> available from the RHEL deployment guide. We also have a dedicated
> Documentation section [...]"
> 
> Any idea?
> 
> 
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with
> the NSA.
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Re: [DNG] what is sssd?

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Rowland Penny" <rpenny241...@gmail.com>
> On 22/01/16 16:02, Rob Owens wrote:
>> One thing it can be used for is offline authentication for LDAP users.  I am
>> currently using sssd on a Funtoo laptop for this purpose.  When I have no
>> network access (no access to the LDAP server), my users can still log in.
>>
> 
> As I said, I cannot think of anything that sssd can do that winbind
> doesn't, or to put it it another way, you can do that with winbind. See
> here: https://wiki.samba.org/index.php/PAM_Offline_Authentication
> 

It looks like I'd need to have a Windows domain (could be via Samba) to 
make that work.  Is that correct?  I've got Linux-only LDAP authentication,
so I'm not using a domain.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Didier Kryn" 
> Le 02/01/2016 03:44, Stephanie Daugherty a écrit :
>> Regardless of who proposed it, merged /usr is still a reckless change  > that
>> needlessly complicates things.
> 
> The simple fact of splitting executables between two different
> directories *is* a complication; merging them back would be a
> *simplification* :-). I've read, from a guy who followed the story, that
> it was originally split because the first disk was too small. Wether it
> has become later a usefull complication can be discussed of course :-)
> 

I have also read that the split was done because they ran out of disk space.
However, many great inventions over the years were created/discovered by 
accident.  I wouldn't classify a separate /usr as a "great invention", but 
it certainly has proved itself to be useful over the years.

The problem is that the people behind this merge are inexperienced as system
admins.  Being a good programmer does not by itself qualify a person to 
decide on the types of changes they are proposing.  You need to be an
experienced system admin if you are going to make smart changes to the 
underlying layers of an operating system.  

This applies to what they are doing with systemd as well.  And I can give a
simple example that illustrates the inexperience of the systemd architect(s):

If I want to stop a service, then do some operation (edit a config file, 
perhaps), then start that service, I need to run the following commands:

systemctl stop someservice
vi someservice.cfg
systemctl start someservice

The systemctl syntax are in nice English language order.  It sounds like a
sentence.  But it is backwards if you consider the steps a sysadmin would
take to type them:

systemctl stop someservice



start


Or just re-type the whole line -- it's probably quicker.

If they had done it right:

systemctl someservice stop


start


An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several times a 
day would have designed this syntax for ease of use.  The systemd 
developers did not do this, presumably because they do not have to type 
these commands several times a day.

Same goes for the /usr merge.  They do not understand the usefulness of 
this "historical mistake" because they are inexperienced.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Didier Kryn" <k...@in2p3.fr>

> Le 05/01/2016 15:59, Rob Owens a écrit :
>> I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux
>> systems, and the reason is cost savings.
> For my information: They don't share rootfs? How do they manage
> package upgrade?

I just spoke to some coworkers and I have to revise my story a bit.  The 
short answer is I don't know if these particular customers share the entire
rootfs, just /usr, or some subset of /usr.

There are mainframes that are used to host thousands of zLinux systems.
For example, they may provide web servers to customers.  In this
scenario, they will attempt to share as much disk as possible between
systems.  The shared disk will typically be read-only on all systems except 
for one (perhaps a management system which is used to perform updates).
Each system of course needs some read-write space, but the more shared
disk it can utilize, the better (because that is cheaper and easier to
manage).

So are they sharing /usr and owning individual root filesystems?  I'm
not sure what these particular customers are doing.  I can imagine
scenarios where having that ability would be beneficial, but I'm not
sure if these customers are actually doing it.  I do know that they make
heavy use of read-only disk sharing, and that taking two separate
directories and dumping them into one will reduce granularity, which can
make it more difficult to optimize disk sharing.

-Rob 
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Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "richard lucassen" <spamt...@xaq.nl>
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:51:22 -0500 (EST)
> Rob Owens <row...@ptd.net> wrote:
> 
> [too much typing]
> 
>> An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several
>> times a day would have designed this syntax for ease of use.  The
>> systemd developers did not do this, presumably because they do not
>> have to type these commands several times a day.
> 
> I think they have a so-called "mouse" to do that. Google for
> computer mouse images to see what the thing looks like :)

Ha!  Yes, I'm sure that is how they do it.  Probably VNC'ing from 
their Macbooks.
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Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Roger Leigh" 

> Regarding the comments people made about having separate / and /usr
> filesystems.  While it was common historically, there is little or no
> practical benefit to doing so in 2016.  Storage sizes make it
> unnecessary for pretty much all practical scenarios.  The two are
> managed by dpkg as a coherent whole; they are logically inseparable.
> They serve the same purpose.  Do reconsider whether it's actually
> necessary for you to do this, or whether it's merely habit.  Some
> historical practices continue to have value; others, including this one,
> do not.

This is not true for zLinux (Linux on an IBM mainframe).  Disk space on 
a mainframe is quite expensive compared to what we are used to on Intel
hardware.  I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux
systems, and the reason is cost savings.  

I don't blame anybody on this list for not knowing about this, but I 
find it amazing that Red Hat doesn't know better.  They are a major
supplier of Linux for mainframes.  (FYI, that's the s390 and s390x 
architecture that you see available from a handful of distros).

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Purpose of an OS: was network device naming

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Rainer Weikusat" 
> Didier Kryn  writes:

>> Ethernet interfaces are maybe the only issue, which explains why
>> distros have implemented a solution by the means of udev rules. The
>> way it is implemented is secure: every new ethernet device is given a
>> new device name (ethX) and no entry is created in
>> /etc/network/interfaces; therefore the interface isn't connected
>> without an action of the admin. If it is a replacement, then the admin
>> should just edit the MAC address in
>> /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules. Not a big deal, compared to
>> replacing the hardware.
> 
> As I already wrote: A file
> 
> /etc/udev/rules.d/75-persistent-net-generator.rules
> 
> can be created (on Debian up to wheezy at least) to avoid this "install
> the system to new hardware and get a whole bunch of new ethN instead of
> the onese which aren't available anymore" mess altogether.

And if you forgot to create /etc/udev/rules.d/75-persistent-net-generator.rules
and have rebooted with your new network card installed, you may have another
option.  If you only have a single network card, just delete 
/etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules and reboot.  It will be re-created
with your single network card defined as eth0.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Steve Litt" 
> 
> Am I the only person who doesn't like OpenRC? It can't respawn
> (supervise, whatever you call it). Its init scripts are every bit as
> complicated as those of sysvinit, but must be written in a special
> language that's confusingly almost but not quite /bin/sh. To be
> complete, therefore, it must spawn daemontools-encore or s6 to
> supervise things like dhcpd and wpa_supplicant.

One thing that I think is smart about OpenRC is the way variables
are set in a file other than the init script itself.  If you want 
to make some customizations, you don't edit the init script.  You 
edit the corresponding file in /etc/conf.d.  It seems like this 
could make maintaining scripts easier, and make them usable on a
wider variety of distros.

One thing I like about OpenRC and sysvinit is that they are shell
scripts.  Shell script is a language that many sysadmins already
know.  If they don't, they certainly wouldn't be wasting their time 
by learning it.  It is useful way beyond init systems.

If I wanted to automatically respawn something (and I might try 
this on my MythTV backend which crashes every few months), I could
create this script:

#!/bin/sh
while true; do
/start/my/daemon "$@"
done

My init system could call that script to start my daemon.  Then to
stop the daemon it would have to kill both the script and the 
daemon.  

Some would call that an ugly hack, but it's also known as 
flexibility.  And it's one of the things I like about 
shell-script-based init systems.  I didn't even know how to do
this until 5 minutes ago, but I was able to search "linux 
automatically respawn process".  And I was handed a shell script.
Not a systemd script.  Not an upstart script or a daemontools
script or a runit script.  

My point is that shell script may be primitive by comparison to
the methods used by some other inits, but its power is in its
ubiquitousness.

By the way, I'm fairly new to OpenRC so I can't really recommend
it over other inits.  I only intended to point out some things
that I consider strong points.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] [announce] s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Rainer Weikusat" 
> Laurent Bercot  writes:

>>  I'm talking normal use cases here, i.e. situations where the services
>> *will* succeed. In those situations, it is better to start everything
>> according to the dependency graph, because then you do *not* trigger
>> failure paths, which is nicer.
> 
> Or you do trigger 'failure paths' which may not be nice at all. Eg,
> according to a Solaris depenency specification I saw at some time in the
> past, sending local mails on a Solaris system won't be allowed before
> LDAP has been started. But there's really no way to predict this because
> 'starting program A before program B' does not mean 'program A will be
> ready to serve program B by the time program wants to use its services'.

Here is a real-world scenario that has caused me trouble over the years.
I have a system that connects wirelessly to my local network.  The system
uses wicd to manage the network connections, and wicd starts at boot. 
This system is supposed to mount several NFS shares on boot, but it
always fails -- even when using openrc (which is dependency-based) on 
Funtoo.  

The problem is that even though wicd has started, it takes several
seconds (sometimes up to 30 seconds) to acquire an ip address.  In the
meantime, NFS mounts are attempted and fail.  I have "solved" this so 
far in a couple ways.  One way is to issue a sleep statement before 
mounting the NFS shares.  Another way, which can be seen at the 
following link, is to create a 'pingtest' service and make my NFS
mounting script wait for that to succeed.  
https://bugs.funtoo.org/browse/FL-2644

I appreciate the assertion that NFS should handle this situation better.
Note that the "bg" option seems like it should handle this situation,
but my experience says it does not.  I also appreciate the assertion 
that this can be addressed by the init system.  In any case, I'm 
mentioning it here so that anybody looking to make a better init can 
consider this use case.

-Rob
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[DNG] report: upgrade Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie

[Rob Owens]

This test is on a non-gui system.  

'apt-get update'

'apt-get upgrade'

'apt-get remove libsystemd-login0'  # Not sure why this was installed 
on my Wheezy system.  This operation also removed dbus.

'wget 
http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/d/devuan-baseconf/devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb'

'dpkg -i devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb'

enter 'jessie' in place of the default value of 'ceres'

remove debian sources from /etc/apt/sources.list (if this is a 
required step, why not have the devuan-baseconf deb comment out 
these sources?)

'apt-get update'

'apt-get install devuan-keyring'

'apt-get update'

'apt-get upgrade'

'apt-get update' -- just to be sure

'apt-get dist-upgrade'  # db5.1-util is kept back.  Many new
packages are installed, including dbus, samba, and qemu-kvm.

'aptitude search ~i | grep systemd' shows libsystemd0 is 
installed, which was not present on my Wheezy system.  I 
understand this is relatively benign, but I'm reporting it
to be complete.

The machine boots without errors, and 'lsb_release -a' shows
that I am running Devuan.
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Re: [DNG] upgrade wheezy to devuan jessie instead of ceres

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Didier Kryn" <k...@in2p3.fr>

> Le 14/09/2015 21:48, Rob Owens a écrit :
>> I only chose ceres because that was the default when I installed
>> devuan-baseconf.  Which would be a more sensible upgrade path from Wheezy?
>> Should I have chosen ascii?
> Up to now, Debian has never supported skipping one or two versions
> in dist-upgrade. The version just after Wheezy is Jessie; therefore you
> should probably dist-upgrade to Devuan Jessie. The planets come after that.

Thanks for the input, everyone.  My upgrade was better this time.

1)  'wget 
http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/d/devuan-baseconf/devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb'
2)  'dpkg -i devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb'
3)  enter 'jessie' in place of the default value of 'ceres'
4)  remove debian sources from /etc/apt/sources.list
5)  'apt-get update' 
6)  'apt-get upgrade'
7)  'apt-get update' -- just to be sure
8)  'apt-get dist-upgrade'

No warnings or errors.  Samba and various qemu packages get installed,
even though they were not installed on my Wheezy system.  Package 
db5.1-util has been kept back.  Upgrading it wanted to remove python 2.6,
so instead I removed db5.1-util and the system boots fine without it.  I
haven't done much testing beyond that.

'aptitude search ~i | grep systemd' shows libsystemd-login0 and 
libsystemd0 installed.

'apt-cache policy' for both packages shows version 215-17+deb8u2 
installed from http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie/main

libsystemd-login0 is listed as deprecated in the output of 'aptitude
search...' and in fact, it was installed prior to my upgrade.

After a reboot libsystemd-login0 is not installed -- I may have done a
'apt-get autoremove' in the meantime.  I am going to have to re-test.

But overall, the upgrade was successful.

-Rob
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[DNG] upgrade wheezy to ceres -- warnings, errors, and oddities

[Rob Owens]

If there's a better place to report this, let me know.

On a fully updated Wheezy system, I installed 
debuan-baseconf-0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb.  That sets up the Devuan repositories 
and then puts some instructions on the screen.  When you select OK, those 
instructions disappear.  It would be nice if they remained on the screen.

Anyway, I removed the Debian sources and then ran 'apt-get update'.  I got 
normal output plus several lines like 'ignoring provides line with depcompareop 
for package php-psr-http-message-implementation'.  'apt-get update' did not 
correct this, as the on-screen messages suggested it might.  

I then ran 'apt-get upgrade' and after some upgrades it stopped with errors 
about 'bsdmainutils is not configured yet'.  'apt-get install bsdmainutils' got 
me past that, but that's something that probably should be addressed.

Another 'apt-get update' still produces the 'ignoring provides line' warnings.

'apt-get upgrade' tells me that systemd and systemd-sysv are going to be 
installed.  Additionally, for some reason samba is going to be installed 
(nothing against samba, but I don't need it on this system).  Various qemu 
packages are also going to be installed for some reason.

If somebody wants to try fixing these issues, I can re-test.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] upgrade wheezy to ceres -- warnings, errors, and oddities

[Rob Owens]

I correct a mistake near the end of my original email.  'apt-get dist-upgrade'
is what causes systemd, samba, and qemu to get installed.  And just to be clear,
I did 'apt-get upgrade' first, then 'apt-get dist-upgrade' later in the process.
This is how I am accustomed to doing Debian upgrades.

- Original Message -
> From: "rowens" 

> If there's a better place to report this, let me know.
> 
> On a fully updated Wheezy system, I installed
> debuan-baseconf-0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb.  That sets up the Devuan repositories
> and then puts some instructions on the screen.  When you select OK, those
> instructions disappear.  It would be nice if they remained on the screen.
> 
> Anyway, I removed the Debian sources and then ran 'apt-get update'.  I got
> normal output plus several lines like 'ignoring provides line with 
> depcompareop
> for package php-psr-http-message-implementation'.  'apt-get update' did not
> correct this, as the on-screen messages suggested it might.
> 
> I then ran 'apt-get upgrade' and after some upgrades it stopped with errors
> about 'bsdmainutils is not configured yet'.  'apt-get install bsdmainutils' 
> got
> me past that, but that's something that probably should be addressed.
> 
> Another 'apt-get update' still produces the 'ignoring provides line' warnings.
> 
edit: 'apt-get dist-upgrade' tells me that systemd and systemd-sysv are going 
to be
> installed.  Additionally, for some reason samba is going to be installed
> (nothing against samba, but I don't need it on this system).  Various qemu
> packages are also going to be installed for some reason.
> 
> If somebody wants to try fixing these issues, I can re-test.
> 
> -Rob
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Re: [DNG] non-systemd Linux for newbies with good migration tool?

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com
 Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote:

 -binary based
 You just ruled out Funtoo.

FYI, Funtoo (and Gentoo, as I understand it) can be set to 
automatically create packages when software is compiled.  So 
you can have a single machine do all the compiling, and all 
the other machines get packages from that first machine.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Devuan compared to AntiX

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com

 Other suggestions for non-systemd software are welcome. The main criteria is
 that it actually has to be something useful, something that I might install 
 and
 use daily. Thus, far-out stuff like Minix is not a consideration, even if it's
 fun to play with.

I'd suggest Funtoo, if you haven't reviewed it already.  Start here:

http://www.funtoo.org/Install

Many reviews I read form their opinion of a distro based on how easy the install
process is.  If that is your plan, don't bother.  The install takes a while, and
you probably won't really appreciate the distro until you have used it for a 
while.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Devuan compared to AntiX

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com
 Rob is right about the difficulty of installing Funtoo. As a matter of
 fact, I'd say he's understated it.
 
 I'd go so far as to say Funtoo is only for technically proficient
 people, and unlike *buntu, Debian, Devuan, OpenSuSE and Manjaro
 (systemd or OpenRC), cannot be used by the guy whose entire
 relationship with a computer is running programs. In my opinion, Funtoo
 installation requires a soul-deep understanding of the concept of
 chroot installation and configuration: Not only the Hows, but the Whys.
 
 Funtoo's for a guy like me, not a guy like the typical *buntu user.
 
 If you choose to install Funtoo, I'd *very* highly recommend you do it
 two or three times on a Qemu virtual machine, because it goes fairly
 quickly (8 hours) there. On metal it might take a day or a weekend,
 depending on the metal. Make sure the VM has at least 28GB of disk
 space, you need 14 just for kernel compilation alone.

Steve, you no longer have to compile the kernel to install Funtoo.  That
removes quite a bit of the disk space and time requirements to install.
But you are correct, it is not for beginners and it requires familiarity
with (or willingness to learn) advanced concepts.

However, using it is easy.  So if the OP's friends would be relying on
him to install the OS and take care of upgrades, then only the OP needs
to put in the extra work -- not his friends.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Init scripts in packages

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Rainer Weikusat rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com
 Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net writes:

 Worse, if refuse to support multiple init systems means that the
 Debian packagers start stripping out the init scripts from Debian
 packages, those, those packages become useless in Devuan.
 
 This is actually such an absurd idea that I have some trouble
 considering it a serious concern (no disrespect intended --- I'm a
 developer and this seems 'a trifle' to me but maybe not to everybody
 else).

I get that an init script is very minor compared to the software it 
starts/stops.  The problem, though, is one of scale.  If the handful
of people who work on Devuan suddenly have to create init scripts
for hundreds or thousands of packages, that job will take a long 
time.  Even if it's just a matter of finding an old init script and 
verifying that it works.

That said, I am doubtful that this scenario will happen.  But even if 
it did, it would not be an insurmountable problem.  It would be a big 
pain in the neck, though.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] automount, mount, and USB sticks

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com
 I'm not sure where in the discussion this fits, but I thought I'd mention
 it here:
 Permitting all mount invocations via sudo does have a potential security
 hole if your mount implementation supports FUSE, as you can run an arbitrary
 command by specifying the mount type.
 I don't think that sudo does the necessary steps to block this.
 
 If you use a wrapper script, you can make it automatically determine the
 type and run ntfs-3g if appropriate, then allow sudo to run that.
 If you use a C wrapper, you can do that and make it suid.
 
Another reason not to give users wholesale access to the mount command is that
they could then 'mount -o remount,rw' any filesystem that the administrator
has mounted read-only.  To protect against this, I think you probably need 
something a bit more complicated than just sudo.  Of course, for a single
user system, this is not a problem.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] automount, mount, and USB sticks

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: kpb k...@sohcahtoa.org.uk
 Rob Owens row...@ptd.net wrote:
 
 Before I stopped using Jessie, I had USB mounting working
 with the spacefm file manager and either udevil or pmount to
 handle the removable devices.  Let me know if anybody wants
 instruction on that.
 
 -Rob
 
 Hello Rob
 
 I'd appreciate an outline of the way you got pmount to talk to your file 
 manager
 if you have your notes written up already and it is not too onerous.

I'm not on a Jessie system now, but I have access to its config
files.  So some of this is from memory:

Spacefm has the ability to use several different methods to
mount removable media.  If you install either pmount or udevil,
it can use them.  By default, I believe it automatically
chooses which method it wants to use, based on what you have
installed.

If you want to force it to use pmount, go to Spacefm's Devices
menu, Settings, Device Handlers.  Click on the Default device
handler, and uncomment the pmount lines in the Mount and Unmount
sections.

pmount and udevil have their own differing conventions for where
to mount the removable media.  For udevil, at least, that can be 
configured (allowed_media_dirs in udevil.conf).

On Jessie, I have noticed that some applications don't properly 
detect the mounted removable media if it's mounted this way.  
See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=774871

By the way, I just discovered there is something called 
pmount-gui, which is not available in Debian.  It provides
a very basic gui for pmount.  In my quick testing, I was
able to mount a usb stick, but I see no option to unmount.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com
 On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote:
 I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default
 editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to
 use vi!
 
 NO.  Not every Unix user.  Only the ones that use Unix variants that
 force vi on them.  Only those have to use vi.
 
Hendrik,

Just curious -- do any distros come with emacs as the default editor?  I
don't use emacs, and have never tried running it from a default install
of any distro I've ever used.

 nano is, as far as I can see, nobody's favorite editor.  But it's also
 nobody's anathema.  It will give you enough breathing room to choose
 the editor you really want.

Agreed.  Even though I am always annoyed when I run 'visudo' on a new
system and get nano.  But I know how to change it so it's no big deal.

-Rob
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[DNG] nano for beginners

[Rob Owens]

I noted some people saying they were confused by nano.  Here are basic
instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of
choice.  I am deliberately leaving out things like cutting and pasting.
If your goal is just to get a different editor installed, these 
instructions should suffice.

1) To edit a file, type:

nano /etc/apt/sources.list

2) Use cursor keys to navigate.  

3) Typing inserts text.  The delete and backspace keys work as
expected.

4) Ctrl-O saves the file.  Nano's menu at the bottom of the screen 
calls this Write Out.  You will have the option to change the name
of the file.  On my system, there is no blinking cursor.  But the 
cursor is in fact at the end of the filename.  Use your cursor keys 
or the backspace key and you will see it.

5) Ctrl-X exits.  If there are unsaved changes, it will prompt you
to save by asking Save modified buffer?.  
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[DNG] vi for beginners

[Rob Owens]

I noted some people saying they were confused by vi.  Here are basic
instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of
choice.  I am deliberately leaving out things like cutting and pasting.
If your goal is just to get a different editor installed, these 
instructions should suffice.

Note that many distros symlink /bin/vi to some other vi-like editor
(vim-tiny, for instance).  I am attempting to give instructions for 
the most basic vi.

1) To edit a file, type:

vi /etc/apt/sources.list

Note:  vi starts in command mode.  You cannot insert text in this
mode.

2) Use cursor keys to navigate.  If they don't work in your version
of vi, use the keys h, j, k, and l to navigate.

3) The x key is used to delete.

4) Hit i to go into insert mode.  The Insert key may also work.
Typing at this point inserts text.  The delete and backspace keys 
may not work (depends on the version of vi).

5) Hit Escape to leave insert mode and enter command mode.

6) Type the following, followed by hitting enter, in order to save
and quit:

:wq

The colon indicates that you are entering a command.  w is short
for write, and q is short for quit.

7) To save without quitting, use this command:

:w

8) To save as a different filename, use this command:

:w /path/to/myfile

9) To quit without saving, use this command:

:q!

The exclamation point indicates that you know you have unsaved
changes, but you want to quit anyway.  Without it, vi will refuse
to quit if there are unsaved changes.
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Re: [DNG] nano for beginners

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Anto arya...@chello.at

 In vi I use 10yy and then p to copy and paste 10 lines. And I use 10dd
 to delete 10 lines and press u to undo that if I mistakenly deleted the
 wrong lines. What are the equivalent commands for that in nano?

I have no idea.  My nano usage is limited to doing what is required to
get vim installed.  And for that I will re-type lines by hand if I need 
to.

-Rob
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Re: [Dng] automounting in a window manager

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com
 
 First, thanks to all who replied.
 
 To me, the ideal solution would be if this was a user-configurable option.
 Would be great if you could, for example, just stick something into .bashrc
 for any user to allow automounting of USB devices, no matter which DE or
 window manager was being used. But I know it doesn't work that way. Just
 saying, it would make sense.
 
 pmount - yes, thanks for reminding me. I've used it eons ago. But all it does
 is allow one to mount a device without needing sudo. Still not really
 automounting.
 
 No one mentioned udevil. I just found it. Also not the same as automounting,
 but check out the interesting git home page:
 
 https://ignorantguru.github.io/udevil/
 
That guy also wrote spacefm.  It's a file manager which allows you to either
manually or automatically mount USB devices.  It can be configured to use
udevil, pmount, udisks1, or udisks2 to perform that function.

Spacefm is currently unsupported by the developer.

In the past I've used pcmanfm to perform this function, but on Jessie, it
seems to require systemd stuff in order to handle mounting.

-Rob
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Re: [Dng] automounting in a window manager

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: shraptor shrap...@bahnhof.se
 On 2015-06-01 16:22, Rob Owens wrote:
  - Original Message -
  From: Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com
  
  First, thanks to all who replied.
  
  To me, the ideal solution would be if this was a user-configurable
  option.
  Would be great if you could, for example, just stick something into
  .bashrc
  for any user to allow automounting of USB devices, no matter which DE
  or
  window manager was being used. But I know it doesn't work that way.
  Just
  saying, it would make sense.
  
  pmount - yes, thanks for reminding me. I've used it eons ago. But all
  it does
  is allow one to mount a device without needing sudo. Still not really
  automounting.
  
  No one mentioned udevil. I just found it. Also not the same as
  automounting,
  but check out the interesting git home page:
  
  https://ignorantguru.github.io/udevil/
  
  That guy also wrote spacefm.  It's a file manager which allows you to
  either
  manually or automatically mount USB devices.  It can be configured to
  use
  udevil, pmount, udisks1, or udisks2 to perform that function.
  
  Spacefm is currently unsupported by the developer.
  
 
 
 checking github
 https://github.com/IgnorantGuru/spacefm/commits/next
 
 it seems spacefm is very much alive
 

Awesome!  Thanks for the update.  Last I had read, ignorantguru was on 
haitus (announced April 28, 2014).  But it looks like as of this February, 
he's back.

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/
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Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com
 
 Gnome already depends on systemd, but the apps do not.  

Not exactly true.  My eyes were open to the systemd problem when I 
installed brasero on Jessie and it wanted to change my init system.
Brasero depends on gvfs to detect removable media, and that in turn,
through a chain of dependencies, depends on libpam-systemd.  That 
depends on systemd-sysv | systemd-shim.

After some debate, that last dependency was changed to 
systemd-shim | systemd-sysv.  That it required any debate at all 
makes me wonder where some of the Debian devs' heads are at.

So note that without the existence of the 3rd party systemd-shim, 
Many gnome apps do in fact depend on systemd as init.

-Rob
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Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
 From: Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr

  Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm
 anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is
 onboard, I mean the audience.

For me, the line between desktop and server is very blurred.  I use Debian
in a home environment for myself and family members.  I am responsible for
the maintenance of 11 Debian machines.  

LXDE is the desktop of choice for most, since Gnome 3 was introduced on 
Wheezy and the long-term existence of Gnome Classic (or Gnome Fallback) is 
questionable.  Myself, I use Fluxbox.  Some of my machines are CLI only.

Security is a top priority.  I also appreciate the large number of
packages that Debian provides.  I followed the systemd debates carefully
on debian-user and debian-devel.  I now am of the opinion that a large
number of Debian developers are not paranoid enough to be my OS provider.

High-value software to me, in no particular order, includes:

Libreoffice
Firefox
LXDE [2]
Fluxbox
Openbox
Ardour
Jack
easytag
flac
pcmanfm
xterm
xcalc
VLC
mplayer
MythTV (from deb-multimedia.org)
Handbrake (from deb-multimedia.org)
ssh
nfs
ldap
iptables
music player [1]

1:  I like Rhythmbox, but the interface is getting worse and the 
transcode feature seems finicky.  I have been mostly using Guayadeque
recently.  I have need for both a basic player, and for something to
transcode flac files to ogg vorbis or mp3 when music is copied to a
portable player or usb stick.  On Jessie without systemd, it can no
longer detect removable media, so its days on my system may be numbered.
See my so-far unanswered bug report:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=774871

2:  Personally, I don't care if Devuan includes Gnome or not.  I think 
Gnome is so committed to 1) not being optimized for desktops and 2)
using systemd, that it would be fair to simply write it off as unusable
in Devuan.  As long as I have alternatives, I am fine with that.  Their
vision for their product does not impress me.  I think the only reason
they have survived the past several years is because they have been 
the default on so many distros for so long.  But today I think there
are better choices for default desktop.  LXDE and XFCE seem good.  But
I honestly think most people would be well-served with something basic
like Fluxbox or Openbox with a customized startup script which runs
wicd, and maybe adding something like fbpanel.
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Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages

[Rob Owens]

On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 12:05:35AM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote:
  Considering the dependencies on libsystemd0, libpam-systemd, libudev0, and
  libudev1, I get:
 
 I don't see eudev or mdev in Debian's repos, are there any viable 
 alternatives?
 
Debian does have udevil.  I'm not sure if it's a complete replacement
for udev, but it allowed me to do USB automounting on Jessie without
systemd.  Udevil is unmaintained upstream, as far as I know.

-Rob


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