Re: [DNG] https://talk.devuan.org/ not accessible

[hellekin]

On 12/22/2016 04:08 AM, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> As of now 3:12 UK time I can't access the https://talk.devuan.org/ pages.
> 

Thanks.  The machine is not pinging either.  I'm not aware of anything I
can do since I only have SSH access to it, and there's
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/todo/issues/33 pending.
Maybe it's related.

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] DocSprint Devuan, December, BXL

[hellekin]

On 12/21/2016 01:09 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> The concepts discussed are deep, far reaching, and branch off a long
> way from software. I have a feeling that reading this document
> carefully would teach me a lot more than software. This is a manifesto.
>

Thank you Steve, this is the most beautiful comment we've received so
far.  Sorry for the hard wording.  Some complexity requires bending the
language.  Yes, reading carefully certainly is a key to understand
careful writing.  Did you notice an Easter egg somewhere?

> One practical matter: The graphic is dysfunctional.
>  

https://bxl.dyne.org/media/moments/3-devuan-ci.pdf is more suited for
you: it's PDF so you can adjust it to the size you need, and it appears
on white (and in colors!).

Cheers,

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] DocSprint Devuan, December, BXL

[hellekin]

On 12/06/2016 01:13 PM, hellekin wrote:
> On 11/15/2016 08:43 AM, hellekin wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> for the third moment of its research-action vector on SMALL
>> SINGULARITIES, Dyne:β×λ is organizing a documentation sprint for Devuan
>> in December in Brussels.
>>
>> https://bxl.dyne.org/vectors/small-singularities
>>
>> This docsprint aims to produce an introductory booklet for Devuan users
>> and the community, in English and hopefully other languages (e.g., French).
>>
>

Got news from the printer's: the books are being finalized and packaged,
so everything is on time!  I'll post a picture as soon as I can.

> to bring copies to the public event that is scheduled for
> Wednesday, December 21st, 2016, from 16:00 to 19:00 at WTC Brussels in
> partnership with F/LAT. (More on this later).
>

We made a an invitation to the event on the Dyne:β×λ list, with a small
change: it will start an hour earlier, and will be followed in the
evening by a Solstice party in the Jardins Navez where we started our
research-action vector on Small Singularities 3 months ago: that's a
nice circle closing.

> 
> Information and updates at http://bxl.dyne.org/moments/three
>

For those who missed it: everything not in this message was put online
there...

Here's a bit more practical information about the docsprint.  A
dedicated team of volunteers who participated in
https://talk.devuan.org/c/devuan/doc-wg made quite some progress on some
aspects of the issue #143.  As we were unable to bring people together
physically since our budget was canceled, it's quite an achievement.
Online coordination proved much slower, but as people picked up the
tasks, they could get acquainted with the power of the platform to turn
conversation into drafts and finally into shareable content.

The first page that went online was an update of the list of Devuan
blends (derivative works) at
https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros, thanks to the fantastic
work of Dev1fanboy (all times favorite Devuan cybrarian) and the people
who made these distributions possible (special thanks to fsmithred for
Refracta!)

We decided that "How to become a Devuan maintainer?" was a wrong
question (Centurion_Dan suggested that an action was more appropriate
than a role) and so Dan and Dev1fanboy (again) worked on clarifying the
processes of "How to Package for Devuan", which will appear shortly on
the site.  We hope this will start a new influx of contributors who will
feel welcome to participate in Devuan without having to wait anymore for
some authority to be bestowed on them :)

One of my personal objectives for this docsprint was to revamp the
Continuous Integration schema that illustrates how the development
platform integrates Gitlab, Jenkins, and Amprolla.  Doing so was much
fun, and with the help of Centurion_Dan I think the result is one of the
major improvements on the infrastructure documentation.  I have a
problem though: I don't know where to put it.  So far it appears in the
booklet and in the related talk.do topics.  But it should go on the
git.do somewhere and on devuan.org as well.

A lot of pending work remains.  You can see our working ground at
https://talk.devuan.org/c/devuan/doc-wg that is now public for all to
see.  We could have achieved more, but I think the participants realized
how much we can do together with this platform and the next one will be
easier.  But there's absolutely no need to wait for another docsprint to
keep things rolling.  Issue #143 is far from complete, and there are
many ways to add a piece to the puzzle.

*

The finalized version of the booklet where you can read and comment
lives at https://talk.devuan.org/t/software-freedom-your-way/592

If you prefer some fancy CSS and typography, try
https://bxl.dyne.org/actions/software-freedom-your-way or download a PDF
version at
https://bxl.dyne.org/media/actions/3-software-freedom-your-way.pdf

Dyne:β×λ heartily invite you to read the book and comment on it.  It's a
conversation starter, and a demonstration that the Devuan community is
to be made by the community.  Translators can get started with it (Aitor
will coordinate Spanish, I will do French, Florian proposed to take
German, and other translators can take it upon themselves to bring the
Little Purpy Book to life in their culture.)  There's an Easter egg in
this book that only two people so far know about, and I'm pretty sure
you will like it when you find it.  Peel your eyes!  The first person to
post on DNG about it will receive a signed copy of the Little Purpy Book
with a couple of Devuan stickers for bookmarks!

Each docsprint participant should send me (privately) their postal
address if they wish to receive a copy of the book as a humble present
for their involvement.  If you're interested in distributing more copies
and help spread the word, you're welcome to send a message to
petites-singula

Re: [DNG] DocSprint Devuan, December, BXL

[hellekin]

On 12/06/2016 06:26 PM, ja...@beau.org wrote:
> 
> They're going to put money towards something that most every Open Source
> project has problems with - documentation.
>

More than money we're putting a lot of energy and sensibility into it.
People who participate actually care for Devuan, as they have since the
beginning.  I'm very glad that we can do it.  I hope you will like the
result.

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] DocSprint Devuan, December, BXL

[hellekin]

On 12/06/2016 05:45 PM, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
>
> β stands for Brussels, λ for laboratory, and in vector calculus, × stands
> for curl. The curl of two vectors is a third vector normal (i.e. 
> perpendicular) to both original vectors. A vector is something that
> has a direction. A singularity is where something not "anticipated"
> happens. Perhaps the idea is give the image of creating new
> "exciting" things from things (people, organisations) joining forces.
> Soo, someone is having fun with the language.
> 

Beautiful, thank you Karl!

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] DocSprint Devuan, December, BXL

[hellekin]

On 11/15/2016 08:43 AM, hellekin wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> for the third moment of its research-action vector on SMALL
> SINGULARITIES, Dyne:β×λ is organizing a documentation sprint for Devuan
> in December in Brussels.
> 
> https://bxl.dyne.org/vectors/small-singularities
> 
> This docsprint aims to produce an introductory booklet for Devuan users
> and the community, in English and hopefully other languages (e.g., French).
> 

Hello,

we've started preliminary work!  The heavy time will be next week-end
from 9th to 11th, and we aim at finalizing the booklet by next Monday in
order to bring copies to the public event that is scheduled for
Wednesday, December 21st, 2016, from 16:00 to 19:00 at WTC Brussels in
partnership with F/LAT. (More on this later).

We're aiming to start with ~ 500 printed copies in English, with
translations in Spanish, German, and French.  Each run will finance the
next run in another language.

Some of the contents will go to the official Devuan documentation, so
please keep an eye on
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues/143

Information and updates at http://bxl.dyne.org/moments/three

Regards,

==
hk

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[DNG] talk.devuan.org dangling issue for two months.

[hellekin]

Two months ago I warned of a low disk space situation.

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/todo/issues/33

Yesterday, talk.devuan.org started failing for lack of space.

Can't say more.

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] devuan-discuss is not useful, quite the opposite

[hellekin]

On 11/23/2016 01:12 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:
> hellekin <helle...@dyne.org> wrote:
> 
>> ... nobody cares
> 
> As someone who is not really in a position to contribute much at all, let me 
> say that I'm grateful to all who are working towards making Devuan "happen" - 
> regardless of the size of their contribution.
> I watch (or at least, skim) most of the discussions, mostly I work on the 
> basis of "if I can't contribute in a positive way, then I keep quiet and 'let 
> those who can, do'" and I suspect there are a few on the list with the same 
> approach - so don't take silence as meaning not interested or doesn't care.
> 

Thanks Simon,

my interest is in more people participating in collective intelligence
and collective action.  What would make you think you're in a position
to contribute anything at all?  What makes you feel you can't contribute
much?

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] devuan-discuss is not useful, quite the opposite

[hellekin]

On 11/09/2016 11:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> The final documentation should be done on something more permanent,
> based on the back-and forth in email. The talk.devuan.org would be a
> great place to put the finished docs. My problem with talk.devuan.org
> is when I used it for brainstorming. I couldn't tell who wrote what
> when, and it ended up a mixed up jumble instead of good documentation.
> 

Come on, it's a linear discussion, much like email.  Moreover nobody
gave it a chance to work all the way from conversation to discussion to
wiki to static page with comments looping back to conversation.
Resistance has spoken.  The DocSprint is supposed to change that, and
show that it's worth trying.

The finished docs should be in devuan-doc package, that you can read in
various formats, including a nice HTML documentation on localhost, that
you can mirror anywhere and translate easily.  It's been the plan for a
long time, and there have been two types of reaction: help doing it, or
complain.

I feel like every time I'm trying to touch something, nobody cares, or
resist for some obscure reason.  In these conditions, I'm very much
doubting my own capacity to bring anything worth to this community.  I'd
like that it's made clear, so I can better orient my energy.

==
hk

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[DNG] Devuan stickers now on sale!

[hellekin]

Our friends at UnixStickers put out Devuan stickers \o/

10% of the sales go to the Devuan project, so it's a great way to show
your support.  Single copies are $2.69, down to $1.79 per 10 or more.

They come in two colors:

Black on white for clear surfaces:
http://www.unixstickers.com/stickers/linux_os_distribution_stickers/devuan-os-linux-shaped-sticker

White on transparent for dark surfaces:
http://www.unixstickers.com/stickers/linux_os_distribution_stickers/devuan-os-linux-clear-shaped-sticker

Keep an eye on them merchandises: http://www.unixstickers.com/tag/devuan

We're looking into bumper stickers [0].  If you have suggestions or
interesting pricing, go ahead and tell us!

==
hk

[0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/81

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[DNG] Devuan Editors (was Re: apt-get update fails [FIXED])

[hellekin]

On 11/06/2016 08:59 PM, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> 
> BTW, I think two or three lines a month about the apparently heavy work
> under the hood would help to reduce the perception of discrepancy
> between the often-quoted "rock solid beta" statement and "accidents"
> like this^^
>

Yup.  We have a Devuan Editors group where that kind of work can be
done.  We used to produce the Devuan Weekly News, but reading the list
soon became overwhelming.  An alternate to DWN was thought about at some
point but quickly abandoned as nobody stepped in to do it, and the small
team already has their plates full.

More people may mean more work done.  Hopefully :)

See https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-editors

Now on our plate: an upcoming presentation of Devuan at FSCONS X next
Saturday.  It will be the first since the beta release I think.
https://frab.fscons.org/en/fscons16/public/events/282

==
hk

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[DNG] Devuan-based Distros

[hellekin]

The page at https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros is a bit
outdated and quite messy. I'd like to make a complete list of
Devuan-Based distros, including a presentation, link to the site,
distrowatch entry if any, etc.

Besides, a lot of people seem to choose SourceForge to host their
distro. I'd rather have them use our infrastructure to facilitate
integration, or something more independent. Suggestions welcome.

See https://talk.devuan.org/t/rolling-your-own-distro-why-and-how/54/2

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] devuan-discuss is not useful, quite the opposite

[hellekin]

On 11/06/2016 02:59 PM, Giovanni Rapagnani wrote:
> 
> Based on these observations, I think the information on [2] should be
> updated to tell DNG is the primary ML. devuan-discuss would better be
> closed and all the subscribers informed that DNG is the primary ML for
> getting help and discuss about Devuan, because it has always been and
> people never switched to devuan-discuss.
>

The devuan-discuss mailing list was created to harmonize the lists:
devuan-announce, devuan-discuss, and devuan-dev, and to move away from
the "Debian is Not GNOME" antagonist pattern.

People never switched because there was no discussion about the identity
of Devuan.  All we know is that Devuan is not Debian.  But we can't
define our identity on a negative: Devuan has another energy than just
being opposed to a unequivocal way of thinking about free software.

I'm sad that people who were determined enough to switch distro would be
lazy enough to not jump ships and say: here we are, we are Devuan, and
we are not just against stuff.

I love the idea of having a history and roots, and that DNG is the heart
of our common ancestry.  I know people use email filters that have to be
updated in order to keep the sorting going.  But I hate thinking about
GNOME every time I post to DNG, for the simple reason that I have never
used it and do not feel concerned about opposing GNOME.  I'm sure it
works for a number of people, and I'm not part of them.

Don't you have a problem thinking about Devuan as "Debian without systemd"?

I know we're still early in the process of differentiation, but I'm
already pretty sure that what Devuan is becoming is not *in comparison
of* anything.  The fact we're receiving news of people making new
derivatives regularly should be much more important in our decision
making than any anti-foo bigotry.

So yes, devuan-discuss is not useful.  But contrary to what Jaromil
said, it was not a 'top-down' approach to create it: if it were,
everybody on DNG would have been subscribed to devuan-discuss and DNG
would have been closed and kept for historical reason, which is what
should happen if we really cared to think about our identity as an
universal free software operating system.

I understand Devuan as neither top-down nor bottom-up, but organic and
transversal. So I don't say bottom-up: I say topless.

Regards,

==
hk

P.S.: in the meantime I edited the web site to remove mention of
devuan-discuss to avoid confusion.  But I'd rather do the opposite, and
freeze DNG.

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[DNG] Recent Security Update Discrepancy

[hellekin]

As you may have noticed, last week-end the security updates for JESSIE
and ASCII didn't work.  We apologize for that glitch which reminds us
we're still in Beta.  The problem was fixed and shouldn't happen again.

Recent changes in the devuan-keyring package made that the secondary
instance of Amprolla that's running the jessie-security and
ascii-security sessions was failing to check the cryptographic signature
on the InRelease file, and therefore was not updating packages.

The devuan-keyring was updated to comply to the latest format in Debian
and its derivatives that split the maintainers and archives/repositories
keyrings.

The secondary Amprolla session configuration was overlooked and kept
looking for the key in the old /usr/share/keyrings/devuan.gpg instead of
the new /usr/share/keyrings/devuan-archive-keyring.gpg.

The configuration file of Amprolla is supposed to seldom change if at
all, and the mind map of the sysadmins is now updated on this possibility.

The failure happened on a week-end, which made its resolution much
slower than usual (about 2 days), especially as everyone is rushing to
prepare a new beta version of JESSIE that will act as an Release Candidate.

Thank you for your patience,

==
hk

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[DNG] Discourse MIME messages (was Re: On talk.do and Web forums)

[hellekin]

On 09/30/2016 11:28 AM, hellekin wrote:
>>
>> appear to be HTML formatted. HTML formatted? Sy what???
>>

Here's what RFC 2046 has to say:

Systems should recognize that the content of the various parts are
interchangeable. Systems should choose the "best" type based on the
local environment and references, in some cases even through user
interaction. As with "multipart/mixed", the order of body parts is
significant. In this case, the alternatives appear in an order of
increasing faithfulness to the original content. In general, the best
choice is the LAST part of a type supported by the recipient system's
local environment.

From that reading, the Discourse emails are properly formatted, and the
problem comes from your MUA accepting HTML email.  Maybe you can disable it?

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] On talk.do and Web forums

[hellekin]

On 09/28/2016 03:57 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> For me, discourse is nothing but silliness. The discourse summary and
> discourse Digest emails I occasionally get are hard to read, boring,
> and appear to be HTML formatted. HTML formatted? Sy what???
>

If they appear to be HTML formatted, you probably want to tell your MUA
to accept the prior text/plain version of the Multipart MIME message you
receive.

I looked at the source of some messages (both digest and individual) I
received from various Discourse instances, all *all* of them without
exception use multipart/alternative with the first part text/plain, and
the second part text/html, as it should be.  Is your MUA broken, that it
imposes HTML on you?

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] On talk.do and Web forums

[hellekin]

On 09/28/2016 03:57 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Does anyone remember the great, text formatted, human created Devuan
> Weekly News? It's sad to think the Devuan Weekly News was supplanted by
> Discourse Digest.
> 

Oh yes I do.  After Envite burned out on it, I had to take a lot of my
own time to keep it alive, and in the end it stopped when I stopped
taking care of it because I simply couldn't take that time anymore.
You're welcome to revive it, but frankly, I'd rather see contents coming
from IRC and talk.do and git.do going to DNG rather than contents from DNG.

>>
>> Yes, very few people are using it.
> 
> Perhaps this is the reason...
> 
> http://lists.netisland.net/archives/plug/plug-2016-09/msg00113.html
>

Of all the points, I think only 13 applies to Discourse *when it is used
as a mailing list*.

For the rest, Steve, you're trying to say that Discourse is meant to
*replace* our mailing lists: but it's not.

We're really talking about forum software.  I'm mentioning the mailing
lists only because the main argument against Discourse is that the Web
interface sucks, and so on.  But using the Web interface is not
mandatory (except for setting up the account and choosing to use the
mailing list mode.)

Mailing list mode is certainly not perfect, but it still allows
Web-allergic people to use it by email.  Since Gitlab also requires
Javascript, Discourse makes a good companion to it.  But you can read it
without Javascript, and participate by email if so you choose.  You can
also *not* use it, and it's fine.

>> - multiple threads talk about the same thing, adding "where?" to the
>> archaeology of remembering what was said.
> 
> The preceding happens often on forums. Is Discourse really any
> different?
>

Yes it is: as I mentioned, it's very easy to select some posts and
reroute them into another existing or new topic.  I've been using Web
forum software since 1993.  The first one was a shitty CGI that allowed
almost synchronous discussion.  Then I used WebX when it was still
usable, and then Caucus.  Caucus evolved from email.  It was used in
academy for courses and had many advanced features that still today are
missing to the mainstream forum software, such as programmable
conferences and topics, and a powerful markup language that makes BBcode
and such look like plastic toys.  I remember converting the whole UI in
a way that would allow me to blaze through unread topics by hitting
alt-space on my keyboard 12 years ago.  Discourse provides a similar
feature set that leaves other forum software decades behind.

> I don't see how Discourse could ameliorate bad behavior among
> posters. And even if it could, why inconvenience
> good citizens to accommodate the thoughtless?
>

It can because it encourages good behavior and grants more power with
more personal investment: it's hard to behave badly as you're learning
more not only of its usage, but also of the local culture as you go, and
you can't do much without a little personal investment which makes it
quite an incentive not to misbehave.

I don't get how it inconveniences good citizens to accommodate the
thoughtless.  Care to explain?

> My archives are local.
>

Glad it works for you.  Have you tried finding anything in a search
engine only to end up reading empty forum threads with no relevant
answer?  This is what I'm talking about.  Not email archives.

> I don't think Discourse wants to have an archives contest with email.
> 

I don't think it has to, but I do think a nicely maintained Discourse
forum would beat it hands down.

> If you mean current threads require patching up whole threads to
> understand, once again that's due exclusively to poster bad behavior.
>

You know we can't reform people's bad behavior.  Or can we?

> If everyone deleted all quoted context EXCEPT that pertenant to the
> answer, and typed their answer/response directly below the last
> poster's question/assertion, everything would be perfectly clear.
>

Yes.

> Don't blame email
>

I don't.  I use it every day and I love it.  I don't intend to stop
using it anytime soon.

> And of course there's this: There are very few offenders on the DNG
> list. We're worrying about a problem that doesn't exist
>

What problem is that?

>> - mailing lists can get invaded by trolls
> 
> So can forums. I doubt Discourse has a mental telepathy module that can
> read a person's thoughts when they sign up.
>

It doesn't.  But it has a very good strategy against spammers.  I didn't
see a single spammer in a Discourse forum so far.  That's because
spammers don't want to spend the time necessary to get to the point
where their spam can make it to a topic, and then have to start from
scratch.  Not worth it for them.

> So what we're doing is adding this big new software thing to fix the
> actions of bad citizens. I have a simpler fix:
> 
> http://troubleshooters.com/linux/init/killfile.htm
> 

It's not about fixing actions of bad citizens, but about offering a way
to turn casual 

[DNG] On talk.do and Web forums

[hellekin]

On IRC #devuan:  hellekin: Can we PLEASE move on from
Discourse.  Very few people are using it and those who are loathe it for
the most part.  It's holding back Devuan's community growth!

Let me state it one last time, by email, so that it can be read by
everyone and we can have a discussion about it, instead of a persistent
and frankly annoying counter-productive attitude regarding talk.devuan.org.

No, we're not moving on from Discourse.

Yes, very few people are using it.

Yes, *some* people insist on loathing it, and although I have tried to
address every single of their arguments, they keep coming at it without
even trying (e.g., to *not* use the Web after their account is
registered.)  Maybe there's some missing documentation about how to use
Discourse as a mailing list only.

I don't think anybody here as much to say against mailing list apart
from the well-known issues:

- threads casually explode as people's MUA don't keep the thread
reference (e.g., when replying from a digest)
- multiple threads talk about the same thing, adding "where?" to the
archaeology of remembering what was said.
- titles are not consistent within a thread (drifts happen before the
title is changed)
- archives are very much an accumulation of dead letters that require
reading sometimes entire threads to figure out pertinent content.
- mailing lists can get invaded by trolls
- etc.

For each of these issues, Discourse provides an elegant solution:

- 'categories' (I prefer calling them 'conferences') and topics are
malleable and can be transformed at will without losing the URLs.
- posts and topics can be merged into a single *long lived* topic to
prevent many threads repeating themselves
- 'drifts' can be selected-out of a conversation into a new topic, to
keep the discussion consistent and encourage on-topic contributions
- some contributions (preferably the opening post in a topic) can be
made a wiki page so that information accumulated during the time of a
conversation can be turned into accessible knowledge.
- actual participation *over time* provide an effective defense against
trolls, spammers, and other undesirable 'participants' that infest
mailing lists.

*Most of these wanted features* are *not available* in other forum
software, that:

- use CAPTCHAs or external anti-spam services susceptible to harm
people's nerve and privacy
- accumulate an infinity of repeating topics that often end up in
dead-ends polluting search engines with useless contents
- promote a reactionary culture of 'self-expression' and novelty
(because people prefer "opening a new topic" rather than searching for
existing contents--also because searching existing topics is a pain)
rather than a long-term conversation towards collective intelligence and
collaborative knowledge management

So, I understand that Discourse is not for everyone, its web interface
requires some heavy Javascript that can be slow, and it doesn't look
like you would like, and certainly not like any forum out there, where
you just sit and shout.  But you need to understand that:

1) we're thinking of a *tool* towards a *goal*: knowledge management
2) it can be *used by email* (as a mailing list, requiring very few
interaction with the Web at all)
3) nothing prevents anyone from *setting up another forum software*

Which brings me to the last argument: "It's holding back Devuan's
community growth!"

Really, golinux, do you think it does?  FriendsOfDevuan has a wiki that
is mentioned in the official documentation page on
devuan.org/os/documentation while it's not operated by the VUA, so be my
guest and make a popular forum that will help grow the Devuan community.
 I think the two objectives are orthogonal, and certainly not incompatible.

I know you've been arguing the talk.do was a threat to the mailing
lists.  Yet, officially, DNG has been replaced by devuan-discuss and
devuan-announce mailing lists, which see seldom traffic so far.  That
means we're not in an univocal world where "the VUA decide" and "the
community follows".  I urge you to look around and watch the hilarious
Ethereum fork story that unfolded this summer.  In fact, we can just
*propose ways*, and some people will understand and participate, and
some will prefer keeping using what's there *and there is no problem at
all with that*.  We live in a complex, multipolar world, where *one
vision does not exclude other visions*.

With Devuan we're trying to give another take on what an universal OS
means, and for that we want to have a compact set of tools that enables
more diversity in the expression of what is, how to make, and who makes
"a distro". *In my opinion*, talk.do has an important role to play in
this strategy, as does the devuan-sdk, and Amprolla and build
automation, etc.  But I certainly do not support the idea that my
opinion is the only valid one.  I'd rather not have *another* forum
software under devuan.org to avoid dissipating 

Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[hellekin]

On 08/01/2016 01:55 AM, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> 
> I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this
> (probably only in expert mode) rather than blindly change the current
> setting.  Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and
> potentially reclassify recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate.
>

Completely agreed.  Offering the option to turn off automated
installation of recommended packages in expert mode would remind the
setting exists to people who would actually care for this kind of
details.  It makes sense to keep a system minimal, but doesn't for
people who just wants things to work out of the box.

I suggest adding a paragraph in dev1fanboy's installer guide that
clarifies what Suggests and Recommends mean, and the consequence of
turning these off or on (the guide goes as far as to suggest setting
`APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "false";`, and although it
mentions the case of `ca-certificates` it fails to provide an extensive
review of the context.)  Pointing at existing documentation in Debian or
quoting from it may be sufficient.

In general, any default changes from Debian should be well discussed and
well documented in advance.  Such changes won't happen for JESSIE anyway
since we're aiming at *continuity* with Debian Wheezy: we may go faster
(e.g., using Slim by default instead of a more expensive GDM) but not in
a different direction, IMO.  Devuan ASCII is where we can go wild, but
we won't go sneaky. :)

==
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[hellekin]

On 07/31/2016 02:20 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:
>
> First law of software quality picture from nixcraft ..
>

Oh, they even provided a line of examples :)

BTW, I thought this suggests/recommends set to false were already agreed
upon, so +1 here.  (Sorry I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.)

==
hk


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Re: [DNG] Bad website CSS: was Devuan Sticker Poll

[hellekin]

On 07/30/2016 06:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Here's a screenshot:
> 
> http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_org_compressed_lines.png
>

Ouch.  Can you please visit the following page and make a screenshot?  I
want to see if it comes from the software or the customization.

https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12

(This is a random page from my browser history)

==
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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[hellekin]

On 07/30/2016 07:45 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective.  
> 

I did already, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

For the record, here is the content of my message to him:

*

Subject: a toxic document?

Hello

I'm working with the Devuan project, and drafted last year a
"constitution" that's quite different from Debian's.

You mentioned that "Debian Constitution is a toxic document", but I
couldn't find any expansion on why you consider it is so.

Would you like to expand on this, so I can ensure my draft won't inherit
such toxicity?

The document is accessible at
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/HellekinConstitutionDraft
if you'd like to read it.

Thank you for your attention,

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[hellekin]

On 07/29/2016 07:28 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> According to you, voters vote for a political party basing their vote
> on the party's electoral manifesto, then suddenly when the party wins
> the government, they can be told the government does what they think
> is best, and claim it best meets the needs of their electors!
> 
> Edward
> 

I think it's the case :)  At least in France when a political party wins
even a minor election with a comfortable margin, they claim to have the
legitimacy to do whatever they want (but they don't).

Joey Hess in his departing email mentioned that The Debian Constitution
"is a toxic document" [0], although he didn't say why exactly (and
didn't reply to my inquiry about it so far, which I can understand.)

Nevertheless, I think that if the part saying "users before all" was
actually followed, Devuan probably would not exist now.

I'm very much concerned that our own Devuan Constitution inherit the
"toxicity" that Joey Hess interpreted in the Debian Constitution, and
that's why I drafted one that departs from Debian's (although I cannot
be certain of its lack of toxicity.)  Nevertheless, the discussion so
far was avoided, which is not to say we should have it now.  As the
Shadoks say: "if there's a problem, there's a solution.  If there's no
solution, then there's no problem."

Cheers,

==
hk

[0]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/11/msg00174.html

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[DNG] Devuan Sticker Poll

[hellekin]

Dear Devuan supporters,

We've been talking[0] to unixstickers.com for original, high-quality
Devuan stickers giving back a percentage of the proceeds to the project
as part of https://devuan.org/os/shopping. Our choice are narrowed down
to three types of stickers, and I'd like to know about your preferences.
 Please take the poll!

https://talk.devuan.org/t/devuan-merchandise/177/2?u=hellekin

Regards,

==
hk

[0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/issues/13

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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[hellekin]

On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
> 
> https://sanitarium.net/x.png
> 

Support for init systems, system and service managers:

[*] OpenRC, runit and other script based systems and managers
[ ] systemd

This looks like a huge troll against systemd.

Steve, do you know the author?  Can we reuse it?

Definitely can illustrate the Init Freedom page :)

https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom

Cheers,

==
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Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie

[hellekin]

On 07/24/2016 10:40 AM, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:
> 
> Apparently the bug has been fixed? Samba 4.2.10 installed without any
> problem or hickup today with AMD64.
> 

The bug remains open and is unassigned:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/61

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] UPdate error

[hellekin]

On 07/06/2016 11:02 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:
> Hi,
> during "apt-get update" error appear "Error
> http://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security/main amd64 Packages
> Undetermined Error".

Same here:

W: Failed to fetch
tor+http://devuanfwojg73k6r.onion/merged/dists/jessie-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages
 Maximum (10) redirects followed

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan (f)art

[hellekin]

On 06/03/2016 05:56 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> 
> '~._
> ""+=+_ )(@  @)@@   @@  @@.@@@. 
>   '"@+.@'''  @@@@ @@   @@ @++@  @?'''\@
>  @@@+.@@  @@  @@   @@@@  @@@@@@
>   )@@@)@@@@   @@   @@   @@@@   @@@@
> +@@@)'  @@  @@@@   @@  @@  @@  @@@@
>  (@@@) @...  @++@ '+. .+' @@@@ @@@@
>   (@@@))  @@"@"  (@  @)@@@@
>))   (R) 
> (@)   
> 
>

With N ~ U, rounder E, more detached (R) (attached)

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'~._
""+=+_ .@@@)(@  @)@@   @@  @@,@. 
  '"@+.@/''  @@@@ @@   @@ @++@ .+' '+.
 @@@+.@@  @@  @@   @@@@  @@@@   @@
  )@@@)@@@@   @@   @@   @@@@   @@   @@
+@@@)'  @@  @@@@   @@  @@  @@  @@   @@
 (@@@) @\..  @++@ '+. .+' @@@@ @@   @@
  (@@@)`@@@)  @@"@"  (@  @)@@   @@
   )) 
(@) (R)

1...10203040506070

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[DNG] Devuan Top100 on DistroWatch

[hellekin]

Today Devuan is number #91 on DistroWatch.com!  We made it to the Top
100 is the first 3 days of presence on DW.  Sweet!

http://distrowatch.com/devuan

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] Devuan (f)art

[hellekin]

On 06/02/2016 08:10 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 08:58:40AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
>> Dear Devuaners,
>>
>> I wanted to share a first attempt to get an ASCII-art-like logo for
>> Devuan that I made yesterday night. I am not an expert of ASCII-art,
>> so don't expect it to be perfect or to look good. I started from the
>> official svg I found on the website, and I wanted something that could
>> be put in /etc/issue (10 rows x 80 cols max), so the proportions might
> ^^
> 
> I obviously meant "/etc/motd" here. Sorry.
> 

I tried this before, indeed the result needs tweaking.  The screenfetch
entry for Devuan looks pretty good already:

hellekin@raiz
 ..,,;;;::;,..   OS: Devuan 1.0 jessie
 `':ddd;:,.  Kernel: x86_64 Linux 4.5.0-2-amd64
   `'dPPd:,. Uptime: 1d 1h 25m
   `:b$$b`.  Packages: 3519
  'P$$$d`Shell: zsh 5.0.7
   .$`   Resolution: 1366x768
   ;$P   WM: Xfwm4
.:P$$`   WM Theme: Clearlooks-Phenix-purpy
.,:b$$$;'CPU: Intel Core i5-3320M CPU @ 4x
2.64GHz
   .,:dPb:'  GPU: Mesa DRI Intel(R) Ivybridge
Mobile
.,:;db$$Pd'` RAM: 1471MiB / 4611MiB
   ,db$$b:'`
  :b:'`
   `$bd:''`
 `'''`

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] What's the correct place for backgrounds, wallpapers etc.

[hellekin]

You may also install desktop themes in your user's $HOME: ~/.themes/foo

==
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal

[hellekin]

On 05/13/2016 04:30 PM, David Hare wrote:
>
> http://paste.debian.net/683478
> 

Great!  Would you consider putting it on
https://talk.devuan.org/c/study?  If you need help, please tell me.

I guess you can replace line 17:

if ! (dpkg -l | grep "^ii" | grep "grub-efi-amd64" |grep -v "bin"); then

with:

if ! (dpkg -l grub-efi-amd64 | grep "^ii"); then


Cheers,

==
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Re: [DNG] Torrents for every single install image

[hellekin]

On 05/13/2016 10:35 AM, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have created a single torrent file for every installation image inside
> the 10 Gb and are actively seeding.
> Is there a way to add them to a website or wiki for easy access for
> everyone?
> 

Hello,

This is not helpful.  Seeding the files individually will make popular
images faster to download but less popular images slower to download.
We want to encourage Devuan supporters to seed images they don't use for
the sake of other people.  If 10GB is too big, you can download only the
files you need (even with bittorrent), and forget about seeding.  There
are other ways to help!

Regards,

==
hk

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[DNG] No DNS: OVH under DDOS

[hellekin]

As reported on IRC just a minute ago:

<   Guy-> is it just me, or is there a DNS problem with devuan.org?
 Guy-: http://travaux.ovh.com/?do=details=17875
 dns anycast.me ( the CDN where devuan.org is hosted for
DNS ) is under dDoS

 i will take care to add other secondary DNS in next few
days to avoid issues like this one in future

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[DNG] OT Re: cloud

[hellekin]

On 05/03/2016 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2016 10:44:29 +
> hellekin <helle...@dyne.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> I want to call it "rabbit" or "Shub-Niggurath"
> 
> I fear the latter name would not be well received in the United States.
> 

Would replacing "Shub-Niggurath" with "Henry Ford" make it any better?

==
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Re: [DNG] [helle...@dyne.org: Re: Missing packages]

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 09:50 PM, Haines Brown wrote:
>
>> Hellekin wrote:
>> 
>> You should use http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ for
>> Devuan sources.  Not anything else.
> 

Update: auto.mirror.devuan.org gives you the closest (fastest) mirror
available, and is preferred.

> Let me see if I understand you correctly. the package firmware-iwlwifi
> is not open software, and so is not available from the devuan package
> archive. So
> 
>   a) The sources.list line
>   deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main non-free contrib
>   should not have non-free appended because devuan does not support
>   non-free packages.
>

No.  If you choose to append "non-free", non-free packages will be
transparently made available from the Debian archive.  Amprolla does the
transparent proxy and keep systemd dependencies off your system.

It's a bit sad to block free software and allow non-free software, but
this is how it goes now.  Hopefully someday we don't need to block any
free software, nor allow any non-free software.

>   b) The only way to get firmware-iwlwifi, an essential package I cannot
>   do without, is to get it as I did from the Debian mirror, but I'm
>   "on my own" because Devuan does not support it.
>

Wrong.  See above.

>   c) The same for task-mail-server, which apparently has some non-free
>   drivers. Is this why it is absent? I had to install the obvious
>   applications such as exim4, procmail, mutt, spamassassin,
>   individually.
>

You should use Devuan like you use Debian, except the sources should use
devuan.org exclusively.  BTW we're trying to push auto.mirror.devuan.org
and CC.mirror.devuan.org (CC = country code) instead of
packages.devuan.org, e.g.,

deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main
deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main

==
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Re: [DNG] .iso images label

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 05:36 PM, Jim Murphy wrote:
> Minor but it would be nice to see Devuan and not Debian
> as the label.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Would someone check and correct before the next release?
> 

Follow up to
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/debian-installer/issues/52

==
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: For all you automounter programmers

[hellekin]

On 05/03/2016 12:16 PM, Jim Murphy wrote:
> 
> Problem, blkid uses a cache that is only updated when root runs blkid.
> Any changes are not automatically updated.  A user only sees the cache.
> 
> The issues is, fsr is trying to do everything as a "user" so tools like
> lsblk and blkid don't work for this case. For blkid, the cache will not
> be up to date when say a flash-drive is add/or removed.
>

You might be interested in using jaromil's version of sup to compile a
static binary that will elevate privilege for "that" user running *blk*
commands.  Not as sexy as running without root, but a good use-case for
the new hashing functionality of sup.

https://git.devuan.org/jaromil/sup

==
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[hellekin]

On 05/03/2016 12:00 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> I definitely agree with you Jim, and this is certainly one aspect to
> be taken into account seriously. We should strive to allow the maximum
> flexibility in choosing an init system, ensuring that the set of
> constraints remains as small as possible.
> 

I like Dan's proposal to use update-alternatives to manage which init
system to run.  Usually choosing an init for a given system only happens
once during the install phase, unless you're actually testing setup of
inits.

What about an init-freedom meta-package working like mail-server and
linking to various working combinations of init + process manager +
device manager?  It could provide a choice at install time, and be
changeable using dpkg-reconfigure init-freedom.

In passing, are there init script converters between various approaches?

Maintaining compatibility of a given package with various init systems
should be easy to track ("hey, your package is compatible with the
default init system [currently: sysvinit], but lacks support for:
openrc, systemd").  At least automatically create issues for this so
that package maintainers can add the relevant scripts.

That way, when we decide to switch the default init system away from
sysvinit, it's because we know most or all packages support the new
default system, *and* flipping back and forth from new to old default in
case anything goes wrong.  Lotsa werk ahead.

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Re: [DNG] sources.list targets

[hellekin]

On 05/03/2016 10:28 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> On Tue, 03 May 2016, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> 
>> Indeed we need a canonical FAQ for Devuan - one that contains correct
>> information and properly managed.
> 
> best strategy for that is to restart it on our forum https://talk.devuan.org
> 

FYI:

https://talk.devuan.org/t/frequently-answered-questions/231

and:

https://devuan.org/os/documentation/faq/

(the two are interdependent, the latter is supposed to synthesize the
former)

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Re: [DNG] Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)

[hellekin]

On 05/02/2016 09:15 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> helle...@dyne.org writes:
>> auto.mirrors does not exist: only auto.mirror does.  Unknown names point
>> to www.devuan.org.
> 
> Auto.mirrors exists as of yesterday. It was on the devuan home page due
> to a typo. Nextime made the typo work, then fixed the typo.
> 

Indeed.  Hopefully this is the last instance of a typo going into
production.  Wrong links have a cost: compare with losing bitcoins,
related to the namespace; multiple links to the same resource is Bad™.

So even if auto.mirrors exists, you shouldn't use it nor rely on it, and
consider it doesn't exist.  The link might be removed in the future, so
if you're currently using mirrors with an s, use mirror instead.

==
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Re: [DNG] cloud

[hellekin]

On 05/02/2016 11:37 AM, Herb Garcia wrote:
> By that metric, using the phrase "cloud-init" is at least descriptive,
> and not marketing buzzword driven.
>

It reminds me of the silver ion spreading technique used in China to
create rain and wash Beijing's roofs from desert sand. Now *that* is
"cloud init". In a computing context, still no luck for me to understand
what it means. Whoever coined the term "cloud" in this context didn't
want to be descriptive.

I want to call it "rabbit" or "Shub-Niggurath" to make that clear:

"Everything about rabbit-init, a set of python scripts and utilities to
make your rabbit images be all they can be!" -> bullshit

"Shub-Niggurath-init is the defacto multi-distribution package that
handles early initialization of a Shub-Niggurath instance." -> that must
be the ritual part, before the rain comes.

==
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Re: [DNG] cloud

[hellekin]

On 05/01/2016 08:17 PM, dan pridgeon wrote:
> Cirrus
> 
>   From: Hughe Chung 
>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org 
>  Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:33 PM
>  Subject: Re: [DNG] cloud
>
> 
> How about cloudnine?
>

As much as I like Bucky Fuller, the goal is not to legitimize the
"cloud" term, but to avoid it.  Here's a few ways to do so:

- datacenter tech
- cluster tech
- opennebula virtualization platform (OVP)

With all these openwhatever, meaning tends to drop down to zero.  I
guess "OpenCloud" would be the best name ever...

- We just deployed OpenCloud.
- Cool.  What is it for?
- No idea, but Marketing likes the name.


OpenCloud: it's got electrolytes!

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)

[hellekin]

On 04/30/2016 08:25 PM, Don Wright wrote:
> 
> I resolve them as:
> auto.mirror.devuan.org. 300 IN  CNAME   packages.devuan.org.
> packages.devuan.org.1800IN  A   46.105.191.77
> 
> auto.mirrors.devuan.org. 300IN  CNAME   www.devuan.org.
> www.devuan.org. 600 IN  A   46.105.191.76
> 

auto.mirrors does not exist: only auto.mirror does.  Unknown names point
to www.devuan.org.

==
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Re: [DNG] [helle...@dyne.org: Re: Missing packages] UP!

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 04:54 PM, hellekin wrote:
> 
> You should use http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ for Devuan
> sources.  Not anything else.
>

Sorry, I meant AUTO.MIRROR.DEVUAN.ORG, as indicated in the documentation
and the default /etc/apt/sources.list.

packages.devuan.org is where Amprolla makes the overlays.

auto.mirror will choose the fastest mirrors for your connection.

==
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Re: [DNG] devuan announce and discuss mailing lists

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 03:30 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> Please arrange to relay these new mailing lists through gmane.org.
> They provides a very usable archive-as-usenet service.
>
> Or do you want me to do this?
>

Please go ahead!

==
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[DNG] Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 03:27 PM, Haines Brown wrote:
> 
>   security.devuan.org uses an invalid security certificate.
>   The certificate is only valid for the following names:
>   devuan.org, www.devuan.org
>   (Error code: ssl_error_bad_cert_domain) 
> 
> How do I resolve this?
>

Don't use security.devuan.org: it doesn't exist.

The correct entry is:

deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main

or with https if you use apt-transport-https.

But it's not active yet.  It's not recommended to use
security.debian.org at this point.  Hang on...

==
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Re: [DNG] Missing packages

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 03:02 PM, Haines Brown wrote:
>
> Let me elaborate. In debian, the firmware-iwlwifi package is found in
> the pool/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/ subdirectory.
> In packages.devuan.org/pool/, there is only a main directory, no non-free
> directory. Why is that?
>

packages.devuan.org is run by Amprolla, and provides overlays over
existing package repositories.  Forked packages that appear in the
devuan-packages group on git.do are present in devuan/pool/main.  If
it's not forked, it comes from Debian mirrors instead, hence not from
packages.do.

> What is the work-around?
>

Devuan only packages free software. The non-free archive comes from
Debian.  Activate the non-free component, as you would in Debian, and
you should be set.

==
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Re: [DNG] Beta

[hellekin]

On 04/29/2016 11:40 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Herb Garcia wrote:
> 
>>So is the Openstack instance there?
> 
> yes, the openstack image (cloud-init equipped) is tagged _cloud_
> 
> and is included in the torrent.
> 

_cloud_ is the worst label ever.  Please tag it openstack, as there are
other cluster technologies.

==
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Re: [DNG] Fw: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[hellekin]

Thank you all for your positive response!  It's heart-warming.

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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[hellekin]

On 04/21/2016 08:17 PM, Mitt Green wrote:
> 
> Frankly, no idea. ‎I have never used Skype, nor have
> a Microsoft account (removed right after throwing
> away my Lumia; smartphones suck by the way).
> 
> / Mitt
>

I guess you're my kind of a guy :)

==
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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[hellekin]

On 04/21/2016 04:14 PM, Mitt Green wrote:
> 
> From GitHub[1]:
> Project is in stale state since its proclamation.
> The main objective, working Skype test call,
> is reached. I don't have any plans for further
> development.
> 
> [1]:https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse
> 

Thanks Mitt.  That means it would be candidate for the contrib
component, right?  (Which is not supposed to be part of Devuan.)

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Web A11y

[hellekin]

On 04/20/2016 07:55 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> 
> Clicking on 'forked from Debian'
>

This is indeed one of the sections that remain to write.  Generalizing
like you did is useless and misguiding.  Don't forget that this is the
BETA site of the BETA, so it's normal that a house in-the-making doesn't
behave like a finished house.

More generally, complaints are received at the level of their worth:
zero.  Help is wanted and welcome.

==
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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[hellekin]

On 04/20/2016 03:46 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:
>>
>> This is not the first time apulse has been discussed on this list.
>> There was talk of packaging apluse for Devuan last year but that
>> conversation has been lost in time.  Perhaps adding apulse to Devuan
>> will be reconsidered once the beta is out.  I would certainly like
>> pulseaudio and it's libs out of my system.
>>
>> golinux
>>
> +1
> 
> BTW, if skype is 32-bit, apulse must be 32-bit as well - it involves a
> library.
> 

Does apulse serve for anything else than running non-free spyware?

==
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Re: [DNG] Fw: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[hellekin]

This thread contains a lot of praise for Devuan.  I want to ask you
whether it's fine to use it on devuan.org for promotion.  You're welcome
to reply here.  I'll contact everyone individually to ask anyway.

Cheers

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Web A11y

[hellekin]

On 04/20/2016 02:38 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
> 
> Nice page, next would be to populate the links with content, right?
> 

Can you be more specific?  Did you *read* the contents of the 404 page
you must have stumbled upon?  If so, you know what to do.

==
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Re: [DNG] asteroids and release names.

[hellekin]

On 04/19/2016 12:36 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> Ascii will be the name of version 1, won't it?
>

1.0 is Jessie (upcoming beta...)
2.0 is ASCII
3.0 is B...
4.0 is C...
...
sid is CERES

==
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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[hellekin]

On 04/19/2016 01:38 PM, Go Linux wrote:
> 
>> More to the point, what is being used s a bug tracker now?  Something
>> on github, maybe?
>> 
>> -- hendrik
>
> To report a bug, open an issue under the appropriate project in
> Devuan's gitlab (not github) at https://git.devuan.org/.  You will
> need to register to do so.
>
> golinux
>

That's https://git.devuan.org/

==
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Re: [DNG] apt-get vs. aptitude ?

[hellekin]

On 04/16/2016 08:13 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 16/04/2016 19:47, Noel Torres a écrit :
>>
>> I regularly use aptitude's CUI (I use to name it as text-mode GUI).
>> Mostly because it has that wonderful "Mark as automatically installed"
>> mode, that allows packages to be more easily updated or removed. 
> 
> This feature also exists in synaptic :-)
> 

I like `l`imiting the package view and `/`searching for specific
packages.  How's that in Synaptic?  `e`xamine mode allows me to explore
dependencies in a quite efficient way.  Exploring new packages,
traversing their dependencies, etc. is quite instructive.

But aptitude is far from a great GUI.  I'm confused between apt,
apt-get, aptitude, dpkg, apt-cache, etc.  That's a lot of complicated
programs with divergent interfaces that overlap a lot.  I'd like a
simple interface to the system packages that doesn't require looking at
the manual or waiting 10 years to master.

Something like git.  No wait, self-documenting, not too many commmands:
a high-level interface with a complete API for scripting under the hood.
 Interactive mode needs to be helpful to humans.

Any recommended aptitude settings that you feel should be default?

==
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[DNG] KDE Presents its Vision for the Future

[hellekin]

https://dot.kde.org/2016/04/05/kde-presents-its-vision-future

I like it.  Ditto for the comments on Accessibility (a11y).

==
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Re: [DNG] suspend

[hellekin]

On 04/13/2016 12:44 AM, Simon Walter wrote:
> 
> I don't mean that we have to be PC about everything, but
>

"to be PC"?  Err, what?

Can you expand the acronym if that doesn't mean Personal Computer?

==
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[DNG] TLS / files.do

[hellekin]

In case you didn't notice, all servers are now using proper TLS
certificates from Let's Encrypt, except one host: files.devuan.org, that
mysteriously failed to acquire some.  So this one is using a free
certificate from Startcom.

If you encounter any issue with TLS, please report to
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/todo/issues

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Re: [DNG] ...and when trolling went too far

[hellekin]

I'd rather not read that kind of degrading perspective in anything
related to Devuan anymore.

I have enough going on with my life not to be interested in witnessing
people vomiting their hate over one another.

==
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Re: [DNG] files.devuan.org not working

[hellekin]

On 03/30/2016 02:46 PM, parazyd wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, it is now upped to 30 certs.
> 

Yes, it upped just after--like hours after--the first generation of our
certificates :(

==
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Re: [DNG] Where to get beta?

[hellekin]

On 03/17/2016 07:56 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Where can I download Devuan's beta?
>

In the near future, as Mitt suggested ;o),
from https://devuan.org/ and https://files.devuan.org/.
For now, in Centurion_dan's pocket :)

Tip: for anything related to the Web, please report issues to
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues.

> IMHO, right now, today, links should be placed at the very
> top of the current https://devuan.org website
>

Won't gonna happen.  Current devuan.org and future devuan.org are
completely different.  We're working towards beta, and that's happening
soon, so the current site is frozen (actually it's not, but we don't
really have time to ride both horses.)

How to join the mailing-list: isn't a link to
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng enough?

How to join the IRC channels: what else than telling they're on freenode
and linking to them?

How to download latest Devuan installer: for now it's manual, you need
to get it from files.devuan.org.  Once the beta release is out, you will
be able to *seed the torrent* with all images.  Download link(s) will be
available from devuan.org frontpage.

> showing how to join the mailing list, how to join the IRC channel(s),
> and how to download the beta and the latest alpha (4, isn't it?).
> 

- Information on the mailing-list, IRC, etc. will be available (from
/os/contact and /os/community AFAIR).
- Information how to download the beta will be accessible as well from
the front page.
- Information about alpha4 will be deprecated, so no link.

We're still discussing how to handle the files.devuan.org to optimize
our distribution scheme.  Keeping older releases is interesting for
historical research purpose, but quite dangerous for production use.

So in files.devuan.org we're probably provide only the latest version of
a release (meaning, IMO, for JESSIE, 1.0-beta when it's out will replace
and obsolete alpha releases that will only be accessible through
archives, and not supported.)

This is to account for software obsolescence: we don't want to encourage
installation of compromised software if we can encourage the
installation of up-to-date software.

Package archives will work as usual, including obsolete packages.
Simply the front-end will encourage using the up-to-date installers.

Regards,

==
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Re: [DNG] Packaging Vdev

[hellekin]

On 03/14/2016 08:04 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>>
>>> 0.1.20160314+1deb1
>>>
>>> I was purposing something like this:
>>>
>>> 0.1.d5d965-jessie1
>>>
>>> There is not a great difference between both. If you prefer to use
>>> the date instead of the short commit, i will do so.
>>
>> The whole point with version numbers is to be able to compare them to 
>> know which is more up-to-date.  Wouldn't using a hash conflict with 
>> this?
> 

I suggest using version numbers compatible with [SemVer][0].  It doesn't
strike me as incompatible with Debian versioning and brings some
interesting programmatic advantage to manage dependencies upstream.

If upstream is v0.1.0, you could use: 0.1.0-jude[-devuan-version].
`-devuan-version` would be preceded by a hyphen per the Debian
documentation that was provided in this thread.

The package then would show, e.g., 0.1.0-jude-jessie1.

==
hk

[0]: http://semver.org/ "Semantic Versioning"

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Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future

[hellekin]

On 02/28/2016 07:38 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> I suggest we use this mailing list for communication, and label each  
> post with the word DE in capital letters on the subject line.
> Thus they'll end up arriving as [DNG] DE ...
>

We can do that, or use Mailman topics: so if you put [DE] in your
Subject, you are filtered.  That way people who want can subscribe to a
subset of the list.  The main issue with this process is that it forces
you to include the tag in the Subject every time.

Anyway a month or two from now, Discourse will be ready to surpass
Mailman as a mailing list manager, thanks to a grant the Discourse team
received for that purpose [0].  This is great news for people allergic
to Web forum, as you will be able to do everything without ever opening
a Web browser.

On the Gitlab there's no group yet for Desktop.  If enough people are
interested in configuring, customizing, and finding commonalities
between Desktop Environments that could be interesting.

==
hk

[0]:
https://blog.discourse.org/2015/12/discourse-selected-for-mozilla-open-source-support-program/

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Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future

[hellekin]

On 02/27/2016 03:28 AM, Simon Wise wrote:
> 
> something as minimal as possible, like above, seems a very good option.
>

I dream of a core Devuan that is modular so that the Desktop Environment
is a *blend* that you layer on top of core.  That way, you can have a
choice of DEs that users can prepare for their own pleasure.

The question of the default DE comes next: Devuan should be shipped with
a default DE.  So far we've been focusing on XFCE, for reasons unknown
to me (normally I use a tiled WM without DE).

I can imagine that Jessie 1.0 Beta will ship with XFCE by default.
I hope Jessie 1.0 will ship with a choice for WM/DE, each implemented as
a blend.  That way the community can maintain a collection of *properly
configured and integrated desktops* for those who want to use that, and
leave the rest of us free to build on the foundation, not just decorate
of a pre-chewed environment.

==
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Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal

[hellekin]

On 02/25/2016 04:01 PM, Ivan J. wrote:
> Hello DnG.
> 
> Is there interest in Devuan supporting multiple versions of leveldb?
>

The case of Bitcoin warrants some attention.  Moreover, applications
derived from Bitcoin may have the same issue.  E.g., Twister compiles
fine with db-5.3, but it may lead to the same kind of security issues
that are supposed to happen if you do so with Bitcoin (honestly I have
no clue...  Anyone?)

==
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Re: [DNG] Which Devuan alpha4 for vbox?

[hellekin]

On 02/16/2016 06:05 PM, GoOSSBears wrote:
> Wish to run an i386 Devuan alpha4 as a guest OS in VirtualBox's 
> current v5.0.14[1], and under an i386 Linux-distro host.
> The Devuan download zone[2] currently lists the four possibilities 
> for this as 
>
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4.box
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4.qcow2
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot-auto.iso
>
> [snip]

- .box is a Vagrant image for VirtualBox.  See:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant
- .qcow2 is for QEmu:  See:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu
- You can boot your VirtualBox from any of the ISOs.

==
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Re: [DNG] Easynetaid is for now netman's new name

[hellekin]

On 02/07/2016 01:00 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> If someone suggests a serious name that is better suited than the new
> name, I will consider it.
> 

I'd like to suggest *netbeam*, also callable by `beammeup` or `beam [me]
up [Scotty]`

There's no netbeam package nor any `beam` UNIX command.

==
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Re: [DNG] Semi OT: Mailman, Lurker and referencing messages

[hellekin]

On 02/01/2016 10:49 AM, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> 
> Can Mailman predict the URL under which Lurker will archive the message
> it is processing "on the fly", or is there even a variable available? 
> 
> Quoting and referencing "third party" messages would be so much easier,
> if mails contained their own Lurker URL in the signature!
> 

This is an excellent idea.  Mailman developers already thought about it:
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Stable%20URLs

I guess we can investigate and find out how to generate these from
mailman, and then have a nice URL like:
https://lurker.devuan.org/ to redirect to the relevant lurker
message.  This would also make Devuan Editors' lives easier when working
on the newsletter.

==
hk


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Re: [DNG] About Devuan News

[hellekin]

On 02/01/2016 09:24 AM, Noel Torres wrote:
> 
> For familiar reasons I'm not able to continue working in the beautiful
> Devuan News work I started, but I love to know that it continues alive.
> Reading it is my main point of connection with the Devuan community and
> as such I need it to continue.
> 
> Thanks, thanks, thanks
> 

Many thanks to you Noel for having started on AD nulla* :)

* Week Zero After Devuan

==
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Re: [DNG] Can I create other projects on git.devuan.org besides netman?

[hellekin]

On 01/31/2016 03:38 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Since space on servers costs money I am asking whether I am allowed to
> create other project on git.devuan.org?
> 

Everyone has 10 projects by default.  Did you reach that limit already?

==
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Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[hellekin]

On 01/28/2016 01:16 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

 ..small fish, nice tits. ;o)
>>>
>>> The preceding half sentence is one example of something that should
>>> NEVER appear in any Devuan venue. Ever.
>>>
> 
>
> ..either way,
>

I'm sorry to tell you, Arnt Karlsen, that the only correct answer you
should have made is to apologize for this sexist, thoughtless, idiotic
comment.

==
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Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[hellekin]

On 01/27/2016 07:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> We anti-systemd people are already a tiny minority.
>

Indeed, Steve, *you* are.

I'm not anti-systemd.  Systemd has the right to exist, like slugs, bugs,
rats, bullshit, bad coffee, or cyanide.  I just don't want to have
anything to do with it, and systemd should respect that choice.

My opinion on systemd has nothing to do with "we."  It has more to do
with "not interested."  Therefore I'm going to add a filter that trashes
threads mentioning systemd at all, and I urge you to do the same,
because Devuan is not about systemd, but about freedom of choice.
Obviously people who want systemd already have that choice, and it's not
related to this mailing list.

==
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Re: [DNG] ..tails boum boum boum: Tails 2.0 is out, systemd "coup d'etat" against torproject.org?

[hellekin]

Arnt Karlsen:
>
> and: https://tails.boum.org/news/version_2.0/index.en.html
> 
> ...
> 
> Change to systemd as init system
>

I think it makes sense for a Live CD desktop distribution to do so, as
it doesn't have to deal with legacy nor with broken upgrades, and it's
not upgrading a running server system with custom scripts.  If it
crashes, damage is very limited.

That said, I'd love to see a Devuan blend that mimicks Tails, Whonix,
JohnDoe, etc. and provides a secure live CD for anonymity and privacy
preservation.

==
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Re: [DNG] git.devuan.org upgrade

[hellekin]

On 01/20/2016 12:27 PM, hellekin wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> git.devuan.org will go down for a scheduled upgrade on Friday, January
> 22nd, in the (EU) evening.
> 

I am timezone-challenged :)  Hope everything is fine.  Please report any
anomalies.  Happy hacking!

==
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[DNG] git.devuan.org upgrade

[hellekin]

Hello,

git.devuan.org will go down for a scheduled upgrade on Friday, January
22nd, in the (EU) evening.

Cheers,

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Weekly News LX (Errata)

[hellekin]

On 01/04/2016 03:07 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>>
>> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060
>>
>> tips about UUID's][2], Arnt Karlsen talked about the [purpose of
> 
> ..er, I did not, I asked the (I believe timely) question
> "..where did the "/media tradition" come from anyway? "
> and thenafter it was Stephanie Daugherty who _answered_ 
> my question by talking about said purpose.
>

Thank you for this correction, Arnt.  It's been corrected on the Web
version.

==
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[DNG] How to enable LetsEncrypt Authority to access git.devuan.org (was Re: Expired SSL certificate for git.devuan.org)

[hellekin]

On 12/24/2015 03:24 PM, Don Wright wrote:
> 
> Perhaps Let's Encrypt isn't included in the default certification
> authorities in your Iceweasel build (unlikely). Visit
> https://letsencrypt.org and check the Support pages.  --Don
>

The Tor Browser Bundle plays fine with LetsEncrypt.  It uses Firefox
version 38.5.0.

Current Devuan (and Debian) Iceweasel version 38.4.0 is broken and
doesn't allow the user to bypass the alert (talk about freedom of
choice.)  All right, it's not broken, it simply respect HSTS.  Whatever,
it *looks* broken, and *acts* broken.

You can access the Gitlab if you add the *Let’s Encrypt Authority X1*
certificate by hand:

1. Get it from https://letsencrypt.org/certificates/ (direct link:
https://letsencrypt.org/certs/letsencryptauthorityx1.pem
2. Open Edit>Preferences>Advanced>Certificates>View Certificates
3. Click import, check the "trust for websites"
4. Save and reload the https://git.devuan.org/

==
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[DNG] Devuan Security

[hellekin]

I suggest we add a devuan-security group on the gitlab, with a
secur...@devuan.org with a GPG key.

Any objection? Any volunteer?

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

[hellekin]

On 07/16/2015 11:41 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
 
 What do you think about moving this way?

*** Your proposals are very consensual and pregnant of the users'
freedom of choice.  This is a great way to enable an open system
embracing variety and selection, and this should be kept in mind for
other future proposals.

Kudos,

==
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Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

[hellekin]

On 07/16/2015 06:24 PM, Riccardo Boninsegna wrote:

 :wq
 
 ZZ (uppercase) saves and quits, no questions asked!


:x also saves and exits.

==
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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

[hellekin]

On 07/14/2015 09:59 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
 More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default
 desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would
 to propose some other default changes in the standard install:
 
 nano - vim
 exim - postfix
 
 
 what do you guys think about that?
 
*** I think the 1.0 release should focus on replacing systemd init with
sysvinit, and the choice of XFCE for the desktop was part of this
strategy. There's no substantial reason rather than personal preference
to change other packages from the base install. Such changes can, and
should be made using custom preseed files, for example.

Debian/Devuan have a number of ways to customize a setup (tasks, seeds,
blends, etc.) and this should become a primary objective once 1.0 is
out. It is my conviction that a system wishing universality should keep
options as diverse as possible for the people who will use it. From that
perspective, I see Devuan as a base system, suitable for building upon
it. I believe configurations and presets are where the Devuan community
can shine, and that the devuan-sdk is a great starting point to choose
this route.

Doing this would encourage Debian developers to reflect on their choice
to impose a narrower route to what's possible to do with the system. On
the contrary, changing too many default packages from a base install of
Debian would probably unnecessarily complicate things for people who
need to work with both systems.

That said, my personal choice has always been to install vim (in
addition to, not in replacement of GNU nano), and to replace exim by
postfix first thing (+ ssh, zsh, emacs, ...). But I agree with Dan that
postfix might be overkill for some users, and especially desktop users
who will use a remote setup for SMTP and IMAP servers. The ssmtp package
seems like a good alternative. I also agree with Golinux that vim is
simply unusable for profanestroll, especially those humans who expect
to be able to actually write text when they open an editor/troll.

Cheers,

==
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Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers

[hellekin]

On 06/03/2015 05:53 AM, James Powell wrote:
 If the firmware aids in compatibility and driver support then yes, include it.

*** I think non-free anything should not be included by default.  For
the sake of universality, they should be available to people who
actually need them.  Many people will expect non-free drivers to be
readily available during installation, and they'd be right to do so.
Not because such hardware should be supported, but because most of the
time, users do not have control over the production of hardware (nor the
consumption: good hardware is less readily available than bad one.)

As Devuan offers a pretty easy and automated way to make a custom build,
maybe we should take advantage of this, and provide a way for
downloading non-free blobs during install, after the detection was made.
 This way would at least make users aware of the problem.

Moreover, this would enable surveying what non-free software sneak in
our machines on a large scale and help fight this situation.  If we just
tuck in non-free drivers in the default installer, we make it normal to
surrender our rights to hardware manufacturers.  On the contrary, we
should expose them*.

Some people will not have this kind of ethical dilemma and will happily
burn a modified Devuan version with all the malware tucked in.  And it's
good they do, because in some cases that means the machine will run at
all.  But for the sake of Devuan, I wish we did not provide that product
ourselves for it should be the proprietary software and hardware
vendors-defectors who should provide for their own needs, and not the
cooperative community.

==
hk

*: it would be awesome if we could simply feed the h-node.org database
automatically to report working and failing components automatically.

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Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers

[hellekin]

On 06/03/2015 11:37 AM, Laurent Bercot wrote:
 
 about licensing purity.
 

and:

  But whatever you do, don't paternalize the users. There's nothing more
 infuriating than an infantilizing message in the way of what you want to
 do.
 

and:

 Your users chose Devuan: they already have made a good choice.

and:

 do not disrespect them by force-feeding them moralistic crap they don't
 care about and that will only antagonize them.
 
*** I must I was almost agreeing until moralistic crap.  This is your
opinion, and in my own, an unfounded one.  What we're talking about here
is about technology, not moralistic anything.

The technology we're building is one that empowers the user, and it is
arguable whether considering the imposition of freedom-restricting
technology empowers the use or not.  The case is hardware that the user
buys and that refuses to work without secret code from the company.
Would you buy a car if the seller would tell you that you will need to
use their own specific fuel and tires, and only drive highways?  Of
course not, because you buy a mean of transport, not an universal ticket
for free transportation.

If Devuan is to replace Debian in its role of a foundation for free
software distribution, then it needs to be closer to Debian, not to
Ubuntu.  And since we have the opportunity to discuss the matter, I'm
for a core distribution of free software, that enables anyone to build
upon that core, including softening its edges and allow it to enable
self-rendition to proprietary software.

This core distribution should fly high the colors of software freedom,
because nobody else will do.  And a fundamental software freedom is you
can use it for any purpose, including making yourself a slave of
corporations.  But that should be a choice, and one that the
distribution does not encourage by default.

Now, the base installer is such a vector of individuation, as Debian 8
demonstrated by using it to install systemd.  Systemd is free software,
but we don't like it to be installed by default.  Now we would frown at
it and happily include non-free software in our base installer?  I
really don't see the point.  Again, that people buy hardware requiring
non-free software to run is a problem, but that problem does not need to
be ignored and dismissed, it needs to be confronted and fixed.

==
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Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers

[hellekin]

On 06/03/2015 12:06 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

 IMO, network hardware that needs a non-free blob is the most glaring
 issue

*** Yes, indeed, many computers come with broken hardware that won't
work without installing proprietary software.  I think this case is the
single case that should be exemplary: the official Devuan network
installer should not, IMO, support this case.  It is not against users,
but against manufacturers.  We all know what the workaround is: build an
installer with the required firmware.  Well, I think that work should be
supported by manufacturers, not by the community.

==
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Re: [Dng] Document on using Qemu for Linux DIY

[hellekin]

On 05/14/2015 08:18 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
 
 sharing host and guest /tmp/xfer directory via sshfs.
 
*** I use the Plan9 way for sharing folders (per someone's suggestion on
the list):

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu#sharing-a-folder-with-the-host

==
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[Dng] Devuan News, volume 02, issue XXIV

[hellekin]

# Devuan News Issue XXIV

__Volume 02, Week 19, Devuan Week 24__

Released Tuesday, 12015/05/12 [HE](why-he)

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-024

## Editorial

You may have noticed that some time has elapsed since the last issue was
published. We are sorry for that delay.

One of the reasons is the lack of free time as the newsletter is a
volunteer project and there is a lot of hard work going on with the
developers.

But *Devuan Weekly News* hasn't disappeared, we're still here. And now
we are officially dropping *'Weekly'* from our name. For two reasons.

The first reason is to avoid confusion with the Debian Weekly News (also
DWN).  The Devuan newsletter will now be known as Devuan News (DN).

The second reason is the lack of (wo)man power. The DN will be published
when it's published depending on our collective circumstances and
inclinations.

A final note goes to thank all the volunteers working on the Devuan News.

*You* make this possible.

@etech3

## Lately in Devuan

### [vdev status update][3]

Jude keeps delivering the goods with `vdev`.  After having extracted
`libudev` from `systemd 219` , he shares a difficulty with
the initial idea of using `inotify(2)` to monitor devices changes, and
announces a workaround plan.

Any feedback on the above development plan is welcome, especially if a
simpler, more robust approach can be found.

Thanks to all who followed [Jude's instruction to provide testing
information for vdev development][3a].  Keep'em coming!

### [Financial report, 1st trimester 2015][4]

This report from @jaromil also includes a summary of the Devuan
project's development.

### [Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?][5]

There was a thread started by Anto which included several interesting
responses:

From jaromil -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.173308.c2f664a8.en.html

From Isaac Dunham -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.235121.db200a9a.en.html

### [A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development][6]

Anto posted on his Devuan installation via debootstrap.

### [Please stop vain discussion][7]

Didier commented on yet another debate over whether Devuan should allow
systemd usage or forbid it completely.

@nextime responded with a statement about Devuan generic policy and systemd:

 The official position is we will support anything that can be
packaged without hijacking the whole system to be installed. Actually
systemd doesn't match this requirement, so, Devuan will not support it
as long it doesn't radically change. Anyway we will not intentionally
obstacle anyone that eventually wants to use it outside official Devuan
release.

### [I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan][8]

Several users (like Edward Bartolo and David Hare) reported their
experiences with Devuan's new debootstrap.

### [Linux boot documentation][9]

Steve Litt announced his latest oeuvre which generated an interesting
technical discussion of the boot process.

### Are we there yet?

There has been some chatter on and off the last few weeks (on the IRC
channels) relating to the

Q: Has there been an official release of Devuan?

A: There is no official release as of yet, but a testable iso
([pre-alpha][pre-alpha] and a [vagrant][vagrant] version).

Q: Are there any rough estimates for the first release? is it more like
2 months or more like a year?

A: When it's ready :D

nextime responded when it is ready, but at least I can assure that it
isn't a year.

## Devuan's Not Gnome

DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project.

- [Subscribe to the list][subscribe]
- [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed]
- [Read online archives][archives]

---
Read you soon!

Devuan News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]!

+ Created by Noel @Envite Torres
+ @hellekin (editor at large)
+ @golinux (word wrangler)
+ @lightbringer (AKA. MinceR, sentence fixaupper)
+ @DocScrutinizer05 (proofreader)
+ @etech3 (markdown master in training MMIT)

--

[3]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150406.203624.a1b96212.en.html
vdev status update

[3a]:
https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md
How to test vdev

[4]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.224708.236843dd.en.html
Financial report, 1st trimester 2015

[5]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.105746.fea9a964.en.html
Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

[6]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.065520.2303aae4.en.html
A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

[7]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150506.194559.3168e0c6.en.html
Please stop vain discussion

[8]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.043143.ff8d2240.en.html
I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan

[9]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150504.144806.e841d24a.en.html
Linux boot documentation

[pre-alpha]:
http

[Dng] Devuan financial report

[hellekin]

The donations page [0] says Next one is due by the end of March 2015.

Did I miss it?

==
hk

[0]: https://devuan.org/donate.html

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Re: [Dng] fontawesome icon fix!

[hellekin]

Did you check that the fonts now display correctly (without the userscript)?

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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[hellekin]

FYI, I've been working on a Discourse instance for Devuan, so that we
can have the best of both worlds (email and forum).  If this happens,
the developers can simply ignore threads they're not interested in and
keep focused on work.  The forum form is likely to grow beyond what any
single person can follow anyway, so I hope the email integration will be
good enough for the purpose of replacing the mailing list.  Nothing
written in stone though, just a general intention.

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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[hellekin]

On 04/08/2015 07:44 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 
 We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, 
 and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural 
 template to follow.

*** Except the move from IRC to email matches in nature the move from
fish to mammals.  Two completely different worlds.  On IRC it makes
sense to use as many channels as you like, because you're just an Alt-A
away from any of them.  We have #debianfork for, well, general chat.  We
have #devuan, which was originally a split for developers, but became a
tad more chatty than anticipated.  And then we have #devuan-dev where
bots spit commits like it's raining bits, so people there hardly chat.
I really don't believe there's a natural template to follow there,
besides NOT alienating users and devs.

What I'm looking forward to is having a single Devuan community
channel that people can use via email or Web seamlessly, and where
specific groups can form and have focused discussions while other people
will chat away their lives for their own and others' enjoyment.  But at
any moment, someone can send a heads up and have all eyeballs watching
that group fading away and call them back to the center of everyone's
attention.  This won't happen with split lists.

This already happens on the gitlab where issues can be used as focused
back and forth communication media to get things done.  I hope the forum
can satisfy the needs of a larger community who won't necessarily adopt
a pragmatic and utilitarian approach of tracking issues.  All things
being equal, I'd rather stick to the minimalist mailing list approach:
one.  I'm already struggling to read any single mailing list regularly
not to have another two lists in my inbox.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[hellekin]

On 04/09/2015 01:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
 We do not need another list.

 
 That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like
 others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of because I
 said so
 

It's not arrogant, it's a fact.  There's not even a single release, only
a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach
developers from users?  You're proposing to solve a problem that does
not exist yet.  People used to mailing lists use filters when they're
annoyed with the traffic.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[hellekin]

On 04/09/2015 01:17 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
 
 The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it
 *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases,
 people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever.
 
*** I agree that Mailman's topics suck because it's on the poster to
remember to put the tag.  The good thing though, is that developers are
more likely to learn the trick than non-developers, especially if they
automate this when sending to the list*, which developers know how to
do, right?  So noise automatically gets below the threshold with a
minimal effort.

* On the condition they stick to posting work-related stuff and
refrain from being human.

But I'd rather have a mailing list system that allows anyone to
subscribe once, and then select topics they are actually interested in
participating to, rather than segregating from the start.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[hellekin]

On 04/08/2015 09:49 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

 I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict
 or noise on Dng:
 
 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the
 merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or
 filter and move on.
 
 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their
 technicalities and possible concerns about future changes.
 
 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses.
 
 4) Any don't feed the troll responses I give will be offlist.

*** +1.

We do not need another list.  If and when we do, we can think about it.
 It's the third message I send on the same topic in three different
threads.  I can't see that as being very productive.

==
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Re: [Dng] The new forum

[hellekin]

On 04/08/2015 06:34 PM, Go Linux wrote:
 
 It bears little resemblance to the technical forums to which I have become
 accustomed.

*** Thank you.  I really hope non-technical people will like it.  I hate
technical discussions about computers.  They suck, because they're
either dick-wagging contests or quickly fall far from the humans
supposedly benefiting from them.  It's time for people to amplify their
minds, and not suffer the diktat of flat-ass belly-rounded specialists.

 Badges?  Really??  Good grief!
 
*** That's a default feature of the system.  It can be disabled.  It
could also prove useful.  It consists in specific requests against the
database.  I have no opinion about them.

 Why can't we have a no-fills forum that isn't so cutsy, socially-tainted
 and icon-laden?

*** There's an option that is (allegedly) activated to enable
participation by email, and that's the principle feature I'm looking
forward to see working and working well.

 it seems to cater to a completely different crowd than the one populating
 this list.

*** Yes, I anticipate that the more successful we are, the less email
freaks will haunt the community--says an email freak.  An important
point to keep in mind is that this system (supposedly) can function as a
mailing list, except you can opt-in (or out) or what you actually want
to receive in your inbox.  Another advantage of the forum, and this one
in particular, is the ability to recompose topics so that conversation
becomes discussion, and discussion becomes documentation.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

[hellekin]

On 04/06/2015 04:23 PM, Jude Nelson wrote:
  Second, I can't take all the credit :)  Besides the VUA collective
 (Jaromil, Nextime, Hellekin, and others?), there's also:

*** I'm not VUA.  They are genuine spaghetti-raised Italians, I'm just
an exiled Piemontese from the XVth Century.  I can barely keep up with
the Prosecco and a Fragolino would kill me for the day, without
mentioning grappa.  No, no, the VUA are a special case.  I'm simply one
of us, one who wants this project to live on and thrive, and responded
to the call that those who do will have a say.  I'm here to herd cats.
 Black ones, stray ones.  From the gutter or roaming on a burning roof,
with datalove.

==
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[Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork

[hellekin]

Hello dears,

one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about
the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on
debianfork.org.

This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll
about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the
actual distro work.

Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness
accounts, key people and facts.  The objective, I repeat, is to gather
facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd.

What I want to do is reply to the question: why did Devuan fork
Debian? in the most sensible way possible.  (Incidentally, how it
happened may also be relevant ;o)

If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on
#devuan-www on Freenode IRC.  Thank you for your attention and for your
help.

==
hk

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