Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
Hi, fsmithred via Dng writes: > On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > >> So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? >> Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? > > About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're working on > that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be pretty smooth. Cool! But when making isos, just make sure openrc is included in the netinst image. For ASCII, it wasn't, making openrc a non-option for air-gapped installs. Upgrading from a fresh, minimal (no recommends) ASCII install w/o any extra software worked fine for me. If one is going to upgrade right after the ASCII install anyway, not installing extra software during the initial install saves you lots of bandwidth. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
On 12/31/19 9:16 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:01:11 -0500, fsmithred wrote in message <56853e51-735a-8e18-1f44-f6ae3fb6c...@gmail.com>: CenturionDan posted this in irc a few days ago: " with the 4.19 kernel LVM requires udev to be running and /run/udev to exist in order for root on LV and other initramfs mounted volumes to be mounted.." ..is this a systemd-ism directed against LVM users? I ran into this issue on some fresh installs earlier this year and had to create and mount /run/udev in a chroot to get grub to install. fsr I don't know where it came from, but I did a fresh install yesterday from a 2.1 iso, used guided partitioning for encrypted lvm, all files in one partition (with separate /boot), lxqt desktop, and then dist-upgraded it to beowulf. On the first 'apt dist-upgrade' there were some conflicts with java libraries for libreoffice. That was resolved with 'apt --fix-broken install' and another dist-upgrade. elogind, libelogind0 and libpam-elogind were held back. 'apt install elogind=241.3-1' fixed that (and libsystemd0 got removed.) There were no issues with the encrypted lvm except for the shutdown delay, which is a well-known problem. fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:01:11 -0500, fsmithred wrote in message <56853e51-735a-8e18-1f44-f6ae3fb6c...@gmail.com>: > On 12/31/19 3:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > Hi, > > > > On 1/1/20 6:53 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > >> On 12/31/19 2:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > >>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> On 1/1/20 4:20 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > > > So how long before we can expect to get stable release > > of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? > > > > About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're > working on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be > pretty smooth. > >>> > >>> Okay, so safe to update /etc/apt/sources.list and then: apt-get > >>> update apt-get dist-upgrade ... now? > >>> > >>> For production systems or any systems? > >>> > >>> Thanks A. > >> > >> For production systems, I might do an upgrade on a test system > >> first, only because I haven't heard a lot of upgrade reports. Also, > >> there might still be some issues on upgrading lvm. > > > > I use lvm, a lot, what are the problems with lvm? > > > >> I've upgraded standard system (no X), a few xfce systems and a > >> mate desktop. They've all been uneventful. > > > > Thanks > > A. > > CenturionDan posted this in irc a few days ago: > " with the 4.19 kernel LVM requires udev to be running and /run/udev > to exist in order for root on LV and other initramfs mounted volumes > to be mounted.." ..is this a systemd-ism directed against LVM users? > I ran into this issue on some fresh installs earlier this year and > had to create and mount /run/udev in a chroot to get grub to install. > > fsr -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
On 12/31/19 3:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 1/1/20 6:53 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: On 12/31/19 2:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 1/1/20 4:20 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're working on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be pretty smooth. Okay, so safe to update /etc/apt/sources.list and then: apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade ... now? For production systems or any systems? Thanks A. For production systems, I might do an upgrade on a test system first, only because I haven't heard a lot of upgrade reports. Also, there might still be some issues on upgrading lvm. I use lvm, a lot, what are the problems with lvm? I've upgraded standard system (no X), a few xfce systems and a mate desktop. They've all been uneventful. Thanks A. CenturionDan posted this in irc a few days ago: " with the 4.19 kernel LVM requires udev to be running and /run/udev to exist in order for root on LV and other initramfs mounted volumes to be mounted.." I ran into this issue on some fresh installs earlier this year and had to create and mount /run/udev in a chroot to get grub to install. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 1/1/20 6:53 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 12/31/19 2:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 >> >> Hi, >> >> On 1/1/20 4:20 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: >>> On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: >>> So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? >>> >>> About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're >>> working on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be >>> pretty smooth. >> >> Okay, so safe to update /etc/apt/sources.list and then: apt-get >> update apt-get dist-upgrade ... now? >> >> For production systems or any systems? >> >> Thanks A. > > For production systems, I might do an upgrade on a test system > first, only because I haven't heard a lot of upgrade reports. Also, > there might still be some issues on upgrading lvm. I use lvm, a lot, what are the problems with lvm? > I've upgraded standard system (no X), a few xfce systems and a > mate desktop. They've all been uneventful. Thanks A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXgusjwAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +/2nAP45jcuMKqIYELattxmjZuvMInvdAzx5hLKdA3g/yxrkfQD+JJjQrBq9wr9b uU5+PkU6aGZFV5WqR/pEWu0PmoW534w= =5XVG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
I've done a few test upgrades of VMs running ascii to beowulf. These were base systems off the ISO with no additional packages installed. No problems so far. I've got a few VMs running ascii with packages installed, tomcat, nginx, etc. I'll be testing them later today. Josef On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:53 AM fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 12/31/19 2:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > Hi, > > > > On 1/1/20 4:20 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > >> On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > >> > >>> So how long before we can expect to get stable release of > >>> Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? > >>> > >> > >> About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're working > >> on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be pretty smooth. > > > > Okay, so safe to update /etc/apt/sources.list and then: > > apt-get update > > apt-get dist-upgrade > > ... now? > > > > For production systems or any systems? > > > > Thanks > > A. > > For production systems, I might do an upgrade on a test system first, only > because I haven't heard a lot of upgrade reports. Also, there might still > be some issues on upgrading lvm. > > I've upgraded standard system (no X), a few xfce systems and a mate > desktop. They've all been uneventful. > > fsr > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Josef Grosch | Berkeley, CA. | Where ever you go, jgro...@gmail.com | Cell: 510-207-9976 | There you are ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
On 12/31/19 2:16 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 1/1/20 4:20 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're working on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be pretty smooth. Okay, so safe to update /etc/apt/sources.list and then: apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade ... now? For production systems or any systems? Thanks A. For production systems, I might do an upgrade on a test system first, only because I haven't heard a lot of upgrade reports. Also, there might still be some issues on upgrading lvm. I've upgraded standard system (no X), a few xfce systems and a mate desktop. They've all been uneventful. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 1/1/20 4:20 am, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > >> So how long before we can expect to get stable release of >> Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? >> > > About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're working > on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be pretty smooth. Okay, so safe to update /etc/apt/sources.list and then: apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade ... now? For production systems or any systems? Thanks A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXguelAAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +0zGAPwKVDkEFIxG4VTq8KrUBR6cT/+Uqr/Rjux3XXR7W80DVgD9Fnf4NCFZui8E 76InJNxn0T62gzLF7bXcTG2BjowdEcU= =4EIC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
On 12/31/19 12:06 PM, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? About the only thing left to do is make the isos, and we're working on that. Meanwhile, upgrades from ascii seem to be pretty smooth. fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, -- essentially same message, but with line resizing to help with gpg sig -- On 31/12/19 12:32 pm, Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng wrote: > fsmithred via Dng writes: >> On 12/29/19 10:46 PM, tom wrote: >>> I know Devuan has been pretty much more or less 'to create a >>> binary compatible Debian but without systemd', but at what >>> point would it be determined that the best course of action >>> may be to leave Debian behind and continue our own way? >>> Probably won't happen any time soon due to manpower issues but >>> it's worth thinking about. >> >> One way to measure that might be to see if we start falling >> farther behind debian. Right now, we're still catching up. >> >> Jessie was 2 years late. Ascii was 1 year late. Beowulf is 6 >> months late. > > You just brightened up my view of Devuan's future :-) > > I'd been getting a little disappointed with the fact there's still > no beowulf but looking at it this way, you're still going strong, > despite any resources issues. Keep up the good work! > >> Any talk of switching our base is premature. > > Hope this helps, I agree, it is premature, but I, myself have to admit to being a bit impatient. I wonder, not very much though, if Fedora supports non system better than Debian does or will? I can't wait for Beowulf either, 6 months now... how long before it is released. We do have Ascii 2.1 from fairly recently, but I'm sure that there are many things that Beowulf will help to modernize our distro of choice. My son is complaining about the mail server not supporting TLS1.3 and that is down to openssl being v1.1.0l and not v1.1.1 Buster, from which Beowulf will "align" has v1.1.1d-0_deb10u2 -- not sure it includes TLS1.3 support, but I expect it does. Is there any chance of a backport or should we just wait until Beowulf is ready? I think it is pretty clear now that unless there is a serious change in Debian's direction, the DDs have clearly flown the systemd flag as their extremely strong preference and little will be possible in persuading them otherwise, ever. Given that DDs are the only "chosen" ones to decide on Debian's future, that makes it even more unlikely to change. Some here might be aware of Louis Rossmann[1], he is a strong advocate of right to repair and whilst he regularly profits from Apple design problems and highlights the problems (sans rose coloured glasses of iDevotees), he would love for Apple to stop having problems and for that part of his business to become unnecessary. In some respects I was sort of hoping that Debian would "fix" their problems and lessen the need for Devuan as well. As it is today and now very likely, very much in to the future, we definitely need Devuan to keep going and to get much stronger over time as we can surely not rely upon Debian too much unless we choose to move to pro systemd camp and that is not likely either for most, if not all of us here. [1] http://axqzx4s6s54s32yentfqojs3x5i7faxza6xo3ehd4bzzsg2ii4fv2iid.onion/ch annel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w NB: That is a v3 .onion address for https://invidio.us (no need for https with .onion addresses and only available on (or via) the Tor network. Invidious is a "portal" of sorts to YT videos without the need to visit YT. So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? Thank you for your good work at Devuan, it is very much appreciated. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXguAHwAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +67zAP98qK6YK5KtMHYNGZTXV5oNJOBCt41j/EwR0Qxu5jGz/gEAgEXB7tev/OmK iguCz07vj9lsCpIGBFSTip5fupcixV8= =r4Mm -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 31/12/19 12:32 pm, Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng wrote: > fsmithred via Dng writes: >> On 12/29/19 10:46 PM, tom wrote: >>> I know Devuan has been pretty much more or less 'to create a >>> binary compatible Debian but without systemd', but at what >>> point would it be determined that the best course of action may >>> be to leave Debian behind and continue our own way? Probably >>> won't happen any time soon due to manpower issues but it's >>> worth thinking about. >> >> One way to measure that might be to see if we start falling >> farther behind debian. Right now, we're still catching up. >> >> Jessie was 2 years late. Ascii was 1 year late. Beowulf is 6 >> months late. > > You just brightened up my view of Devuan's future :-) > > I'd been getting a little disappointed with the fact there's still > no beowulf but looking at it this way, you're still going strong, > despite any resources issues. Keep up the good work! > >> Any talk of switching our base is premature. > > Hope this helps, I agree, it is premature, but I, myself have to admit to being a bit impatient. I wonder, not very much though, if Fedora supports non system better than Debian does or will? I can't wait for Beowulf either, 6 months now... how long before it is released. We do have Ascii 2.1 from fairly recently, but I'm sure that there are many things that Beowulf will help to modernize our distro of choice. My son is complaining about the mail server not supporting TLS1.3 and that is down to openssl being v1.1.0l and not v1.1.1 Buster, from which Beowulf will "align" has v1.1.1d-0_deb10u2 -- not sure it includes TLS1.3 support, but I expect it does. Is there any chance of a backport or should we just wait until Beowulf is ready? I think it is pretty clear now that unless there is a serious change in Debian's direction, the DDs have clearly flown the systemd flag as their extremely strong preference and little will be possible in persuading them otherwise, ever. Given that DDs are the only "chosen" ones to decide on Debian's future, that makes it even more unlikely to change. Some here might be aware of Louis Rossmann[1], he is a strong advocate of right to repair and whilst he regularly profits from Apple design problems and highlights the problems (sans rose coloured glasses of iDevotees), he would love for Apple to stop having problems and for that part of his business to become unnecessary. In some respects I was sort of hoping that Debian would "fix" their problems and lessen the need for Devuan as well. As it is today and now very likely, very much in to the future, we definitely need Devuan to keep going and to get much stronger over time as we can surely not rely upon Debian too much unless we choose to move to pro systemd camp and that is not likely either for most, if not all of us here. [1] http://axqzx4s6s54s32yentfqojs3x5i7faxza6xo3ehd4bzzsg2ii4fv2iid.onion/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w NB: That is a v3 .onion address for https://invidio.us (no need for https with .onion addresses and only available on (or via) the Tor network. Invidious is a "portal" of sorts to YT videos without the need to visit YT. So how long before we can expect to get stable release of Beowulf? Is there a reasonable timeline available yet? Thank you for your good work at Devuan, it is very much appreciated. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXgt+uAAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +0UBAQDEGvGAmJyf3x0j+j8fXI2KSV7cO5zwxsJEVXHRomczJgD5AdY6gAYCbLoF st+b401/e6XFFAbq93NSFfnoY20gKyY= =NHfA -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Catching up (was Re: Result of the Debian vote 'General Resolution: Init systems and systemd')
fsmithred via Dng writes: > On 12/29/19 10:46 PM, tom wrote: >> >> I know Devuan has been pretty much more or less 'to create a binary >> compatible Debian but without systemd', but at what point would it be >> determined that the best course of action may be to leave Debian behind >> and continue our own way? Probably won't happen any time soon due to >> manpower issues but it's worth thinking about. > > One way to measure that might be to see if we start falling farther behind > debian. Right now, we're still catching up. > > Jessie was 2 years late. > Ascii was 1 year late. > Beowulf is 6 months late. You just brightened up my view of Devuan's future :-) I'd been getting a little disappointed with the fact there's still no beowulf but looking at it this way, you're still going strong, despite any resources issues. Keep up the good work! > Any talk of switching our base is premature. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
