Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Ron]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 17:18:13 -0400
Fungi4All  wrote:

> I am relatively new here, I've only seen a few messages and all I can say it 
> is
> "this is not what I expected". I am an opponent of all censorship and an
> advocate of the freedom to use a delete button.

My experience on other highly technical lists (Model Engineering, Steam 
railways, etc is that we get those OT threads from time to time, mainly when a 
list is slow-moving, and they resolve themselves very quickly when on-topic 
posts come back in higher numbers.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  Death is not bad; it just comes badly, sometimes.
-- Cordwainer Smith

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Fungi4All]

Hi,
I am relatively new here, I've only seen a few messages and all I can say it is
"this is not what I expected". I am an opponent of all censorship and an
advocate of the freedom to use a delete button.
My opinion in such a discussion is: It is ok to express a view publically
when there is stimulation and maybe you should never be silent. But in
a public domain/forum with a high number of listeners if the debate goes
on by a very few people, then it becomes propaganda and abuse of the
medium. The five people that like to continue their debate can make a
mini cc: list and continue. Otherwise any 5 of us can invade any public
forum to advance our agenda by pretending to debate.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/16/2017 04:35 PM, Dragan FOSS wrote:
> On 07/16/2017 09:34 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
>> This thread has gotten ridiculously off-topic
>
> Smart people can choose to be smart or stupid, as it suits them
> better. The stupid have no choice... ;>

yep... mhm...

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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/16/2017 03:34 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> This thread has gotten ridiculously off-topic.  Please show some
> restraint and consideration for the bloat this is putting into the dng
> database.
>
> golinux
>
Oh sorry, I will stop replying if you wish to this message. and the
other one if you wish as well...

>
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/16/2017 09:34 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

This thread has gotten ridiculously off-topic


Smart people can choose to be smart or stupid, as it suits them better. 
The stupid have no choice... ;>

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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 09:50:11 -0700, Rick wrote in message 
<20170716165011.gj28...@linuxmafia.com>:

> Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no):
> 
> > ..sissy. ;o) 
> > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Sissy+Boy+Traitor%22+OR+%22the+Nepotist+Warrior+Ace%22+OR+%22Flew+So+High+and+Far+he+Missed+Vietnam%22=web
> > http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Sissy+Boy+George=phrase===0=all=0=search
> > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130618195646575#c1049951 ;oD
> 
> Oh, I can be scathing, too.  I just try not to suffer the delusion
> that it's inherently interesting to others _merely_ that I have an
> opinion without making it also, y'know, interesting.  It's a
> Janteloven thing, as I'm sure you know.  ;->

..aye.  But I must admit I didn't believe democracy would fall 
apart this fast.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[info at smallinnovtions.nl]

On 16-07-17 21:34, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
This thread has gotten ridiculously off-topic.  Please show some 
restraint and consideration for the bloat this is putting into the dng 
database.


golinux


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Agree. There are plenty of religion and christianity mailinglists and 
fora to continue this discussion.


Grtz.

Nick
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[golinux]

This thread has gotten ridiculously off-topic.  Please show some 
restraint and consideration for the bloat this is putting into the dng 
database.


golinux


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rowland Penny]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 18:55:21 +
Miroslav Rovis  wrote:

> On 170716-13:18-0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:59:35 +
> > Miroslav Rovis  wrote:
> > 
> > > Can't trust modern translations of Bible, actually so much
> > > undeserving of trust that they verge on disgusting... 
> > 
> > yet modern translations often are from better ancient texts, which
> > helps in the accuracy.
> 
> The modern translators do not deserve my blind trust in the least.
> 
> This modern day and age that we live in, in which perversion is
> decided to be normal by a vote of medical scientists, and a vote that
> was just slightly in favor (as there were many votes against that
> decision, just not the majority) of the decision how that particular
> aberration in human sexual behavior that up until that vote was
> deemed a desease... That that aberration in human sexual behavior
> which consisted in attraction and sexual relashionship btwn man and
> man and woman and woman instead of btwn man an woman only, how that
> aberation ceases, by a medical vote, to be desease, and becomes
> normal, and since then, by law, in many countries, even contradicting
> that such behavior be normal can put you in trouble...
> 
> This modern day when it must be accepted by anybody that perversion
> (perversion as, erhm, scientists claimed it to be, up until that
> vote, and can something be truth at one time, and then the same thing
> become false in a blink of an... vote?)...
> 
> This modern day when it must be accepted by anybody that perversion
> is a normal behavior, else you are labeled bad names and labeled
> something like anti-human... Else you are evicted from communities...
> Because the truth about those facts "changed" and now you are under
> legal obligation to accept to new truth about those facts...
> 
> And what do you want me to? To trust that in this age, as described
> above by the worse, as well as the most stupid, and mind boggling
> aspect of it... No, I'm not out of topic here, I'm not. This is what
> marks the global society today, these new truths... It imbibes it all
> through, down to Churches and theology...
> 
> You want me to trust that in this age of ours theologians have become
> so clever that all the previous ones were only like little kids,
> maybe smart, but, aarrghh... their works based on such poor sources,
> lacking in real knowledge, or their understanding so limited... All
> the previous theologians in comparison to this day were...
> probably... stupid, eh??
> 
> And what do you want me to? To believe that the Hebrew sources were
> found just recently and didn't exist previously, such as in Jerome's
> time (|V century p.C.)? That Jerome's knowledge of Hebrew was so poor
> that his translation of Bible was rife with approximations...
> 
> No, I trust that ancient Church father, whom all the Christian
> denominations accept, so much more than the new translations. I had,
> time ago, read modern commentaries on some Old Testament texts, and
> the feeling still remains of nausea, with all the approximation of
> the contemprary exegesis... And of the denial of almost any
> supernatural meanings of the Holy Texts.
> 
> It's exactly the other way round, than what you say about accuracy
> futher above, and suppose below. 
> 
> > Sad to say, but why would you read a translation into Latin when
> > you can read one int French or English ?
> 
> I plan to read Latin Vulgate because I already know some Latin, and
> unfortunately no Greek, and I don't believe I would find time to
> learn Greek, or Hebrew, to be able to read the originals...
> 
> I plan to read Latin Vulgate, IOW, basically, Jerome's translation of
> the Bible, because I believe his is the closest translation to the
> originals.
> 
> ---
> P.S. I hope no one will produce any hatred of same-sex people out of
> my words above. By all means, pls. no!, I only regard those facts to
> be truthful as deemed, by a long standing majority, previously to
> that medical scientists vote, and false after that vote. IOW that the
> behavior of those people is an aberration, is a disease. Such people
> need help to get normal. But I don't hate them by any means. And I
> oppose any discrimination against them. They are of course human
> beings as any other human beings. With all the rights as any other
> human beings.
> 
> P.S.2 I think I can be considered as belonging to a minority. A
> Catholic... right... :) But I'm really half joking here No, we,
> be it Catholics, Orthodox, or Christians of other denominations,
> we'll be around almost forever and longer, don't worry! And also
> other long-standing world religions will be lasting longer yet... As
> well as any respectful belief in the Supernatural...
> 

Miroslav, I struggle to understand why you have written this to a
computer OS mailing list.

My philosophy is fairly simple, I do not believe everything I see and
hear, I don't 

Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170716-13:18-0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:59:35 +
> Miroslav Rovis  wrote:
> 
> > Can't trust modern translations of Bible, actually so much undeserving
> > of trust that they verge on disgusting... 
> 
> yet modern translations often are from better ancient texts, which helps in 
> the accuracy.

The modern translators do not deserve my blind trust in the least.

This modern day and age that we live in, in which perversion is decided to be 
normal by a vote of medical scientists, and a vote that was just slightly in 
favor (as there were many votes against that decision, just not the majority) 
of the decision how that particular aberration in human sexual behavior that up 
until that vote was deemed a desease... That that aberration in human sexual 
behavior which consisted in attraction and sexual relashionship btwn man and 
man and woman and woman instead of btwn man an woman only, how that aberation 
ceases, by a medical vote, to be desease, and becomes normal, and since then, 
by law, in many countries, even contradicting that such behavior be normal can 
put you in trouble...

This modern day when it must be accepted by anybody that perversion (perversion 
as, erhm, scientists claimed it to be, up until that vote, and can something be 
truth at one time, and then the same thing become false in a blink of an... 
vote?)...

This modern day when it must be accepted by anybody that perversion is a normal 
behavior, else you are labeled bad names and labeled something like 
anti-human... Else you are evicted from communities... Because the truth about 
those facts "changed" and now you are under legal obligation to accept to new 
truth about those facts...

And what do you want me to? To trust that in this age, as described above by 
the worse, as well as the most stupid, and mind boggling aspect of it... No, 
I'm not out of topic here, I'm not. This is what marks the global society 
today, these new truths... It imbibes it all through, down to Churches and 
theology...

You want me to trust that in this age of ours theologians have become so clever 
that all the previous ones were only like little kids, maybe smart, but, 
aarrghh... their works based on such poor sources, lacking in real knowledge, 
or their understanding so limited... All the previous theologians in comparison 
to this day were... probably... stupid, eh??

And what do you want me to? To believe that the Hebrew sources were found just 
recently and didn't exist previously, such as in Jerome's time (|V century 
p.C.)? That Jerome's knowledge of Hebrew was so poor that his translation of 
Bible was rife with approximations...

No, I trust that ancient Church father, whom all the Christian denominations 
accept, so much more than the new translations. I had, time ago, read modern 
commentaries on some Old Testament texts, and the feeling still remains of 
nausea, with all the approximation of the contemprary exegesis... And of the 
denial of almost any supernatural meanings of the Holy Texts.

It's exactly the other way round, than what you say about accuracy futher 
above, and suppose below. 

> Sad to say, but why would you read a translation into Latin when you can read 
> one int French or English ?

I plan to read Latin Vulgate because I already know some Latin, and 
unfortunately no Greek, and I don't believe I would find time to learn Greek, 
or Hebrew, to be able to read the originals...

I plan to read Latin Vulgate, IOW, basically, Jerome's translation of the 
Bible, because I believe his is the closest translation to the originals.

---
P.S. I hope no one will produce any hatred of same-sex people out of my words 
above. By all means, pls. no!, I only regard those facts to be truthful as 
deemed, by a long standing majority, previously to that medical scientists 
vote, and false after that vote. IOW that the behavior of those people is an 
aberration, is a disease. Such people need help to get normal. But I don't hate 
them by any means. And I oppose any discrimination against them. They are of 
course human beings as any other human beings. With all the rights as any other 
human beings.

P.S.2 I think I can be considered as belonging to a minority. A Catholic... 
right... :) But I'm really half joking here No, we, be it Catholics, 
Orthodox, or Christians of other denominations, we'll be around almost forever 
and longer, don't worry! And also other long-standing world religions will be 
lasting longer yet... As well as any respectful belief in the Supernatural...

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Ron]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:59:35 +
Miroslav Rovis  wrote:

> Can't trust modern translations of Bible, actually so much undeserving
> of trust that they verge on disgusting... 

yet modern translations often are from better ancient texts, which helps in the 
accuracy.

Sad to say, but why would you read a translation into Latin when you can read 
one int French or English ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
News is the mother of opinion,
 opinion the cause of mass-delusion,
 delusion the source of war.
   -- Dr Jean-Jacques Vomact

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no):

> ..sissy. ;o) 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Sissy+Boy+Traitor%22+OR+%22the+Nepotist+Warrior+Ace%22+OR+%22Flew+So+High+and+Far+he+Missed+Vietnam%22=web
> http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Sissy+Boy+George=phrase===0=all=0=search
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130618195646575#c1049951 ;oD

Oh, I can be scathing, too.  I just try not to suffer the delusion that
it's inherently interesting to others _merely_ that I have an opinion
without making it also, y'know, interesting.  It's a Janteloven thing,
as I'm sure you know.  ;->

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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170716-12:10+0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 22:46:14 -0700, Rick wrote in message 
> <20170716054614.gi28...@linuxmafia.com>:
> 
> > Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
> > 
> > > But pls. people, I don't understand Latin so well... Nor have time
> > > to study. Already breaking down tired from lots of work with
> > > polishing my Devuan today... Could you pls. translate. There'll be
> > > others who would benefit...
> > 
> > OK, but I'll warn that putting it in a living language makes it seem
> > like in-your-face polemics rather than a sly antiquarian joke.  It
> > say, in deliberately bad Anglo-leaning Latin:
> > 
> >'The man in the White House, who is angry and has fake hair, is
> >dishonourable and a danger to the country.'
Thank you for the translation.

And of the verses from Aeneid by Virgil, below, which are great.
 
> > > I'm referring to also:
> > > 
> > > Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> > > > Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit...  ;-3)
> > 
> >   'Perhaps it will be pleasant to remember these things some day.'
> > 
> > It's what Aeneas tells his exhausted, shipwrecked followers in 
> > _The Aeneid_, book 1.  (Renaud/Ron is quite the wit.  I doff my hat.)
> >  
> > > > Ave atque vale,
> > 
> > And that is the great poet Gaius Valerius Catullus's famous elegaic
> > couplet, meaning 'hail and farewell.'

I will learn Latin, and do other things, just, learning to use Devuan/(Gentoo
previously) GNU/Linux still takes huge share of my time with little left for
other things in life. But it is a powerful tool, and I have been using
GNU/Linux effectively for many years. Haven't wasted the time, but it is huge
share in my schedule...

I will learn Latin, but my first book to read in Latin will be _Vulgata_ by St
Jerome. Can't trust modern translations of Bible, actually so much undeserving
of trust that they verge on disgusting... (not saying that like a theologian
which I'm not, but like a regular Catholic Church goer who listens to the
reading from the Bible attentively on daily Mass; some of us are just as
attentive to the literature known as the Holy Scripture as our Protestant
relatives in religion).

> ..sissy. ;o) 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Sissy+Boy+Traitor%22+OR+%22the+Nepotist+Warrior+Ace%22+OR+%22Flew+So+High+and+Far+he+Missed+Vietnam%22=web
> http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Sissy+Boy+George=phrase===0=all=0=search
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130618195646575#c1049951 ;oD

I don't see how the stop and search on pilots can be blamed straight on Trump.

The drone assassinations, however, can be put squarely on Obama, and those
really escalated during his presidency. Obama really was the Drone President...
Due to Devuan taking huge share of my time, I have not followed how Trump fares
in the use of drones, nor if the President's approval is still needed for drone
assassinations.

Lots of things to object to Trump, but would Hillary really have been the
better choice?

For us Croats, I have to say it was a good thing, that our President Kolinda,
and we are just 4 1/2 million of people, was about the main organizer for the
meeting of Visegrád Group, in Poland, a week or so ago, where President Trump
participated. I was proud. Would have been proud if it had been President
Hillary instead, equally proud... I respect American President as an
institution.

Still, I don't think Trump is so very bad.

Also I say openly: NATO is better than Russia. And Russia has no right to
occupy Ukraine, which they continue to do. But... Putin is a killer, and a
neocommunist... wants to revive the Soviet Empire...

We, Croatians, have been in our ancestral land for more than thirteen
centuries, we came from Iran (way before Islam, pls.), and are only as much
Slavic as we mixed (a lot, we mixed a lot) with the Ukrainians and Polish
ancestors of those lands in Europe where we stopped before reaching to the
lands where we live now, from Central Europe fringes to the Adriatic Sea, but
we are not related to Russians. We are most related to exactly Ukrainians.

And for a conscious Croat like me, I feel both the hungercide on Ukrainians in
the XX century during Stalin, and this occupation in exactly those lands that
were vacated by the hunger-killings of millions of Ukrainians, an affront... As
if on my own nation. (There are volonteer Croats fighting for Ukraine, I
support them.)

I'm not belligerent, but there can be military actions that are justified
because they are in defence of the civilian population, by means of threat, or
by use of real force.

Trump squarely made Assad the Syrian president understand that gas attacks on
civilian population won't be tollerated by launching precision strikes on
Syrian military facilities. I approved of that move, months ago now. I still
praise it. Obama never had the guts for such an action. Obama failed in that
region, and Syria made Russia's military prowess come to the fore... (Well
there's more to it, but it 

Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 22:46:14 -0700, Rick wrote in message 
<20170716054614.gi28...@linuxmafia.com>:

> Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
> 
> > But pls. people, I don't understand Latin so well... Nor have time
> > to study. Already breaking down tired from lots of work with
> > polishing my Devuan today... Could you pls. translate. There'll be
> > others who would benefit...
> 
> OK, but I'll warn that putting it in a living language makes it seem
> like in-your-face polemics rather than a sly antiquarian joke.  It
> say, in deliberately bad Anglo-leaning Latin:
> 
>'The man in the White House, who is angry and has fake hair, is
>dishonourable and a danger to the country.'

..sissy. ;o) 
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Sissy+Boy+Traitor%22+OR+%22the+Nepotist+Warrior+Ace%22+OR+%22Flew+So+High+and+Far+he+Missed+Vietnam%22=web
http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Sissy+Boy+George=phrase===0=all=0=search
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130618195646575#c1049951 ;oD

> > I'm referring to also:
> > 
> > Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> > > Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit...  ;-3)
> 
>   'Perhaps it will be pleasant to remember these things some day.'
> 
> It's what Aeneas tells his exhausted, shipwrecked followers in 
> _The Aeneid_, book 1.  (Renaud/Ron is quite the wit.  I doff my hat.)
>  
> > > Ave atque vale,
> 
> And that is the great poet Gaius Valerius Catullus's famous elegaic
> couplet, meaning 'hail and farewell.'
> 
> 
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-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> But pls. people, I don't understand Latin so well... Nor have time to study.
> Already breaking down tired from lots of work with polishing my Devuan 
> today...
> Could you pls. translate. There'll be others who would benefit...

OK, but I'll warn that putting it in a living language makes it seem
like in-your-face polemics rather than a sly antiquarian joke.  It say,
in deliberately bad Anglo-leaning Latin:

   'The man in the White House, who is angry and has fake hair, is
   dishonourable and a danger to the country.'

> I'm referring to also:
> 
> Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> > Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit...  ;-3)

  'Perhaps it will be pleasant to remember these things some day.'

It's what Aeneas tells his exhausted, shipwrecked followers in 
_The Aeneid_, book 1.  (Renaud/Ron is quite the wit.  I doff my hat.)
 
> > Ave atque vale,

And that is the great poet Gaius Valerius Catullus's famous elegaic
couplet, meaning 'hail and farewell.'


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170715-15:52-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
...

> It gives me hope that, some day, even Americans can learn proper
> English.[1]  ;->

Ah!
 
> (Apologies to any Latinists for the .signature block.  It's a sly
> reference to current domestic affairs designed to be in good enough
> dog-Latin that it can be deciphered by English-speakers.  Unfortunately,
> the same sentiment in _good_ Latin is opaque to my countrymen who aren't
> Latin-proficient, which would impair the joke.)
> 
> [1] http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/misc.html#accent

That one's funny! LOL

> -- 
> Cheers,  Homo in Domu Alba, qui est iratus et habet 
> in 
> Rick Moenartificialibus capillum:  Quod homo non sit
> r...@linuxmafia.com  honesta, et est perniciosa in rei publicae.
> McQ! (4x80)   

But pls. people, I don't understand Latin so well... Nor have time to study.
Already breaking down tired from lots of work with polishing my Devuan today...
Could you pls. translate. There'll be others who would benefit...

I'm referring to also:

Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit...  ;-3)
> 
> Ave atque vale,
> 
> Ron.

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Ron]

On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:52:42 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> (Apologies to any Latinists for the .signature block.  It's a sly
> reference to current domestic affairs designed to be in good enough
> dog-Latin that it can be deciphered by English-speakers.  Unfortunately,
> the same sentiment in _good_ Latin is opaque to my countrymen who aren't
> Latin-proficient, which would impair the joke.)

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit...  ;-3)
 
Ave atque vale,
 
Ron.
-- 
 

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
 
> No, people. Pls. one thing is important to notice: Edward did not make any
> assertion out of any malice.
> 
> And I'm not writing for reason any other than to try and make Edward, whom I
> sincerely consider a friend, understand.
> 
> Pls. try and think about his arguments with deeper feelings. He has made
> mistaken claims, but not in the least to hurt anyone. 

Edward seems a likeable person of wholly benign inclinations, and also I
think we are all friends, here.

This interlude can also serve as a reminder that it's helpful to assume
good faith and helpful aspirations absent strong indications to the contrary.  

I am also continually _so_ impressed at how articulate a worldwide forum
manages to remain, in a language foreign to most participants, that it's
easy to forget the strong likelihood of innocent misunderstanding.

It gives me hope that, some day, even Americans can learn proper
English.[1]  ;->

(Apologies to any Latinists for the .signature block.  It's a sly
reference to current domestic affairs designed to be in good enough
dog-Latin that it can be deciphered by English-speakers.  Unfortunately,
the same sentiment in _good_ Latin is opaque to my countrymen who aren't
Latin-proficient, which would impair the joke.)

[1] http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/misc.html#accent

-- 
Cheers,  Homo in Domu Alba, qui est iratus et habet in 
Rick Moenartificialibus capillum:  Quod homo non sit
r...@linuxmafia.com  honesta, et est perniciosa in rei publicae.
McQ! (4x80)   
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170715-15:46-0400, zap wrote:
> Oh, that explains it, next time start a new thread and people will be
> more likely to respond... sorry just sayin...
> 
> 
> On 07/14/2017 09:03 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> > Since forums deal with people, how is it possible to put sociology,
> > psychology and ethics aside as if the present time were a time from
> > several decades ago? Society as a whole, has moved on to the extent,
> > that minorities are given a voice that can easily be felt and heard
> > both in the media and legally. How is the Devuan Distribution going to
> > ethically justify its decision of letting abuse, whatever form that
> > may take, to take place on its infrastructure?
> >
> > Every person should enjoy equal rights, but reading some of the
> > preceding argumentation, gives the ethically questionable message that
> > some people have lesser rights than others. I am using 'lesser rights'
> > to signify the implied message that people with disabilities or with a
> > weak personality are better to stay off public forums. This is
> > discrimination which is hard to ethically justify. Disabled persons,
> > both physically and mentally, should enjoy the same rights. However,
> > without moderation this cannot be achieved. They are simply shooed off
> > like annoying insects that land on a dinner table in the wrong time.
> >
> > Whatever some may say, the world as a whole, is moving towards a
> > better place to live in with more social acceptance and legal rights.
> > Supporting the notion of a forum that is like the 'wild wild west'
> > flies in the face of that reality bringing back ghosts from the past
> > of rejection and intolerance.
> >
> > As I am a Devuan user who has contributed with my own time to the
> > project, I expect the project to adopt policies that respect
> > minorities wholly, irrespective of their characteristics. Other than
> > that, it is a pain to see policy adaptions that contradict what is
> > today so widely accepted as a basic right.
> >
 
[manually repasting it] zap wrote:
> Oh, that explains it, next time start a new thread and people will be
> more likely to respond... sorry just sayin...
> 
 
No, people. Pls. one thing is important to notice: Edward did not make any
assertion out of any malice.

And I'm not writing for reason any other than to try and make Edward, whom I
sincerely consider a friend, understand.

Pls. try and think about his arguments with deeper feelings. He has made
mistaken claims, but not in the least to hurt anyone. 

As Jaromil once wrote in reply to me (and neither am I native English speaker,
so the English won't be so polished... and of course, I have to paraphrase it,
can't remember the exact words, that was two years ago or so): Let the water
run over it... God, I can't remember better... but it was somehing like, may
all the bad feelings be swept away like by some mighty river... That was the
meaning, as I understood it. 

It was back when I asked that Devuan accomodates for a non-dbus system,
claiming dbus can not be trusted etc. etc. Some people objected, for right or
for wrong... Some people weren't so nice (I wasn't either). And I was hurt a
little by some replies (and I hurt others some).

But once Jaromil, who may have been, by then, tempted a little to think even
about sanctions on the unruly, looked at it and said something to the effect:
well, could anybody look at this sans-dbus issue, whether that can be done (we
had already had the example of that German from MirBSD OS --Thorsten Glaser,
mirabilos; but nothing to do with my name which is Miro (Miroslav)-- he had
previously made possible to run Debian without dbus, etc.  etc.)... 

And Jaromil suggested to keep as possibility the sans-dbus as option for new
users.

And I forgot all the hurt, and was so happy...

That was when Jaromil said that may it all be swept like with waters of a
mighty river, all the bad feelings.

Edward, you remember when I found that dbus runs encrypted session in my
system, and wrote that only I am allowed to encrypt things in my system, and no
one else...

That encrypted session, ssh-session or something, that is what dbus needs to
run, say, secure xterm. So I wasn't complete right in my suspicion (oh, no,
neither completely wrong, still).

But I sure don't like dbus nowadays either, all the other arguments of mine
about dbus stand more strongly against it than the above argument which is less
strong.

The most important argument, for me, against dbus, is that really honest
people: Werner Koch and his team whom we owe the GnuPG which is such a blessing
for the world, deem dbus not safe for use in any way whatsoever with their
GnuPG.

And I run the system based on dev1fanboy sans-dbus minimalist Devuan istall
guide(s) that I had for long time previously lurked at from my Gentoo. 

And I can really, after all this time, finally tell you: Devuan runs great
sans-dbus! And that is, to me, security-wise, privacy-wise (in prospective,
only in 

Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

Oh, that explains it, next time start a new thread and people will be
more likely to respond... sorry just sayin...


On 07/14/2017 09:03 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Since forums deal with people, how is it possible to put sociology,
> psychology and ethics aside as if the present time were a time from
> several decades ago? Society as a whole, has moved on to the extent,
> that minorities are given a voice that can easily be felt and heard
> both in the media and legally. How is the Devuan Distribution going to
> ethically justify its decision of letting abuse, whatever form that
> may take, to take place on its infrastructure?
>
> Every person should enjoy equal rights, but reading some of the
> preceding argumentation, gives the ethically questionable message that
> some people have lesser rights than others. I am using 'lesser rights'
> to signify the implied message that people with disabilities or with a
> weak personality are better to stay off public forums. This is
> discrimination which is hard to ethically justify. Disabled persons,
> both physically and mentally, should enjoy the same rights. However,
> without moderation this cannot be achieved. They are simply shooed off
> like annoying insects that land on a dinner table in the wrong time.
>
> Whatever some may say, the world as a whole, is moving towards a
> better place to live in with more social acceptance and legal rights.
> Supporting the notion of a forum that is like the 'wild wild west'
> flies in the face of that reality bringing back ghosts from the past
> of rejection and intolerance.
>
> As I am a Devuan user who has contributed with my own time to the
> project, I expect the project to adopt policies that respect
> minorities wholly, irrespective of their characteristics. Other than
> that, it is a pain to see policy adaptions that contradict what is
> today so widely accepted as a basic right.
>

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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

Easy there, I wasn't aware of what your response was to, I haven't been
watching these messages as much lately...


On 07/15/2017 04:42 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Nice, nobody replied.
>
> This means, nobody has any valid counter arguments to what I wrote.
> Moderation is a right nobody should deny if justice, equity and
> interpersonal respect is to prevail.
>
>
> Shutting down onself from dialogue is a clear sign there is no good
> will. This is equivalent to supporting and encouraging cyber abuse. It
> is nothing less than a shame Devuan is adopting the same policy.
>
> Ignore reality as long as you wish but one cannot ignore the current
> trends for more rights and equity. Ignoring someone means the person
> who actively ignores has no more arguments and is insecure as to how
> to act.
>
> Thanks for proving the strength in my arguments. With its policy of no
> moderation, Devuan is actively supporting cyber abuse instead of doing
> its civil duty of protecting victims.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Rick Moen writes:
I'm curious who implied this.  I didn't, for one.  


My impression is that you're talking about something nobody upthread has
been talking about, and asserting that they did.


You weren't around then — at least a year ago Edward made a bit of a 
nuisance of himself on this list (all well-intentioned, no evil trolling or 
anything like that), was tolerated for a while, then not any more. One of 
the VUA cabal members told him off and he stopped it.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Antony Stone]

On Saturday 15 July 2017 at 09:42:22, Edward Bartolo wrote:

> Nice, nobody replied.

Eh?

On Friday 14 July 2017 at 18:41:34, Rick Moen replied.

I agree very much with his comment: "My impression is that you're talking 
about something nobody upthread has been talking about, and asserting that 
they did."

> This means, nobody has any valid counter arguments to what I wrote.

Actually, my guess as to why you didn't get more responses to your posting is 
that the rest of us thought it wasn't worth bothering.


Antony.

-- 
I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way 
is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies, and the 
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ 
deficiencies.

 - C A R Hoare

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Edward Bartolo]

Nice, nobody replied.

This means, nobody has any valid counter arguments to what I wrote.
Moderation is a right nobody should deny if justice, equity and
interpersonal respect is to prevail.


Shutting down onself from dialogue is a clear sign there is no good
will. This is equivalent to supporting and encouraging cyber abuse. It
is nothing less than a shame Devuan is adopting the same policy.

Ignore reality as long as you wish but one cannot ignore the current
trends for more rights and equity. Ignoring someone means the person
who actively ignores has no more arguments and is insecure as to how
to act.

Thanks for proving the strength in my arguments. With its policy of no
moderation, Devuan is actively supporting cyber abuse instead of doing
its civil duty of protecting victims.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/15/2017 12:47 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Dylan fan, Hendrix fan, BSG fan, or all three?


I wonder, I wonder... ;>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUq_T_Bhau8
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Hendrix fan, and I love Dylan's lyrics, especially when others are
> singing them.
> 
> And who the heck is BSG? BackStreet Girls?

The exact famous scene is not openly online on account of NBC
Universal's copyright, but you can hear the musical arrangement by Bear
McCreary with clips from the television series as substitute video
backdrop.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UVWSIAAy-8

Or just stare as a soundtrack cover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BigolJfoANw

It was the season 3 cliffhanger finale of 'Battlestar Galactica' (2004
series), episode Crossroads Part II (season 3, episode 20) -- that has a
kick-in-the-head closing minutes perfectly underscored by that music.

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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 15:47:10 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:44:51 +0200
> > Dragan FOSS  wrote:
> >   
> > > On 07/14/2017 07:17 AM, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > > philosopher
> > > 
> > > NoI'm just a little grain of sand, on the Third Stone from the
> > > Sun :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uJk0cb7Nw  
> > 
> > You may think that, but all along the watchtower they're talking
> > about you.  
> 
> You might very well think that.  I couldn't possibly comment.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJFiByfiRTA
> 
> (Hey, Dylan fan, Hendrix fan, BSG fan, or all three?)

Hendrix fan, and I love Dylan's lyrics, especially when others are
singing them.

And who the heck is BSG? BackStreet Girls?

I'm invisible now, I have no secrets to conceal.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:47:10PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:44:51 +0200
> > Dragan FOSS  wrote:
> > 
> > > On 07/14/2017 07:17 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > > philosopher  
> > > 
> > > NoI'm just a little grain of sand, on the Third Stone from the
> > > Sun :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uJk0cb7Nw
> > 
> > You may think that, but all along the watchtower they're talking about
> > you.
> 
> You might very well think that.  I couldn't possibly comment.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJFiByfiRTA
> 
> (Hey, Dylan fan, Hendrix fan, BSG fan, or all three?)

I'm a Dylan fan.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:44:51 +0200
> Dragan FOSS  wrote:
> 
> > On 07/14/2017 07:17 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > philosopher  
> > 
> > NoI'm just a little grain of sand, on the Third Stone from the
> > Sun :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uJk0cb7Nw
> 
> You may think that, but all along the watchtower they're talking about
> you.

You might very well think that.  I couldn't possibly comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJFiByfiRTA

(Hey, Dylan fan, Hendrix fan, BSG fan, or all three?)
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:44:51 +0200
Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> On 07/14/2017 07:17 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > philosopher  
> 
> NoI'm just a little grain of sand, on the Third Stone from the
> Sun :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uJk0cb7Nw

You may think that, but all along the watchtower they're talking about
you.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/14/2017 07:17 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

philosopher


NoI'm just a little grain of sand, on the Third Stone from the Sun :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uJk0cb7Nw
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com):

> I am using 'lesser rights' to signify the implied message that people
> with disabilities or with a weak personality are better to stay off
> public forums.

I'm curious who implied this.  I didn't, for one.  

My impression is that you're talking about something nobody upthread has
been talking about, and asserting that they did.

Speaking for myself, I merely discussed the standard tools and
techniques to dissuade wrecking of online forums, and pleaded for those
to be used absolutely minimally and with transparency.  Devuan quite
evidently does use them:  Following what norms is a bit unclear and
transparency seems... in question..
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Edward Bartolo]

Since forums deal with people, how is it possible to put sociology,
psychology and ethics aside as if the present time were a time from
several decades ago? Society as a whole, has moved on to the extent,
that minorities are given a voice that can easily be felt and heard
both in the media and legally. How is the Devuan Distribution going to
ethically justify its decision of letting abuse, whatever form that
may take, to take place on its infrastructure?

Every person should enjoy equal rights, but reading some of the
preceding argumentation, gives the ethically questionable message that
some people have lesser rights than others. I am using 'lesser rights'
to signify the implied message that people with disabilities or with a
weak personality are better to stay off public forums. This is
discrimination which is hard to ethically justify. Disabled persons,
both physically and mentally, should enjoy the same rights. However,
without moderation this cannot be achieved. They are simply shooed off
like annoying insects that land on a dinner table in the wrong time.

Whatever some may say, the world as a whole, is moving towards a
better place to live in with more social acceptance and legal rights.
Supporting the notion of a forum that is like the 'wild wild west'
flies in the face of that reality bringing back ghosts from the past
of rejection and intolerance.

As I am a Devuan user who has contributed with my own time to the
project, I expect the project to adopt policies that respect
minorities wholly, irrespective of their characteristics. Other than
that, it is a pain to see policy adaptions that contradict what is
today so widely accepted as a basic right.

-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand
the concepts underlying them.
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dragan FOSS (dragan.f...@gmx.com):

> All in all, all of the above guidelines can be defined in one line:
> 
> "Don't f*ck with admins, we have root privileges.." :D

Well, it's true.  ;->

But at the same time, anyone who's read the Evil Overlord List knows you
don't want to be hassled by your Faceles Minions all the time and
micromanaging your empire.  You want said empire to run smoothly by
itself so you have time to relax and take your jackboots off.

And it turns out that the best way to ensure nobody f*cking with the
listadmin is to intervene seldom and minimally, and let software do all
the heavy lifting.  It's what Lord Vetinari, Patrician of Ankh-Morpork,
would do.

'Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had
ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. 
The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.' 
 _Mort_, by Terry Pratchett

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Vetinari#Vetinari.27s_golden_rule
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 02:15:30 +0200
Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> On 07/14/2017 01:38 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> > I really do strongly recommend all of the above guidelines.  
> 
> All in all, all of the above guidelines can be defined in one line:
> 
> "Don't f*ck with admins, we have root privileges.." :D

At Santa Monica Community College Comp Sci department, my buddy Jeff
was about 2 years ahead of me in his studies. He was the Lab
Coordinator, higher position than any other student, lower only than a
couple career people. I was just an ordinary bright upcoming
student. Jeff and I liked to make trouble for each other, because.

It was a Prime computer running Primos and each student had a space
limited home directory, which gave us plenty of space to do our Pascal
and Cobol work. Under normal circumstances. By the way, Jeff had root,
I was just a normal student.

So one day it seemed like a great idea to set my login script to send:

Steve > Jeff

to Jeff's screen every time I logged in. He told me to take it out. I
told him, well, you know what I told him. And Jeff gave me constipation
of the Home Directory: He removed my deletion rights.

I reused files. I renamed files. I held out as long as I could. But
eventually I had to remove my login script broadcast and come crawling
to Jeff, tail between my legs, promising never to send automated
messages to his screen again. The lesson I learned, as so aptly put by
the philosopher Dragon FOSS, was

"Don't f*ck with admins, we have root privileges.."

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170713-16:38-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Continuing my thoughts about listadmin best practices.  We've covered:
> 
> o  Listadmin sanctions should be carefully minimal.  (Often as not, the
>misbehaving person is seeking public drama and wants nothing quite
>a much as to be treated harshly, towards a goal of claiming 
>martyrdom at the end.)
> 
>There's a saying that applies:  'Do not feed the energy beast.'
> 
>I will comment about the range of available sanctions later.
> ... 

Thank you, Rick, for taking time. I don't think there can be found a better
advice, and so detailed, for our listadmins, and admins generally.

And you advice is the fruit of all the years that you managed MLs, so it really
should be considered here, every single part of it.

( I don't want to do it, but somebody should finally change the subject, e.g.
in case any of the senior members decide to write a more in-depth reply to
these two Rick's recent emails. )

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/14/2017 01:38 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

I really do strongly recommend all of the above guidelines.


All in all, all of the above guidelines can be defined in one line:

"Don't f*ck with admins, we have root privileges.." :D
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Continuing my thoughts about listadmin best practices.  We've covered:

o  Listadmin sanctions should be carefully minimal.  (Often as not, the
   misbehaving person is seeking public drama and wants nothing quite
   a much as to be treated harshly, towards a goal of claiming 
   martyrdom at the end.)

   There's a saying that applies:  'Do not feed the energy beast.'

   I will comment about the range of available sanctions later.

o  Listadmin sanctions & related discussion should ideally be on the
   record, somewhere public but not with an inherent huge audience
   (like a main mailing list).  Carrying out intervention against
   problem behaviour on the main forum creates a (sometimes bigger) 
   mess, and (again) see prior point about drama-seeking and 
   martyrdom-seeking.

   Above is the single point I hear denied most strenously by my 
   fellow listadmins, under a variety of excuses and reasons, such 
   as 'We've found it better to conduct these matters privately'
   (leaving in question the key term 'better'), and 'We must act
   only privately to protect people's privacy (which is nonsense
   in this context), or 'Criticism should always be in private'
   (which begs the question of whether transparency doesn't have 
   significant value).  What this really amounts to, basically, is
   the person thinking 'I'm used to doing it this other way, and
   I'm not going to change just because you have an opinion.'

   The speaker typically doesn't wish to think about downsides of 
   the out-of-band-in-private-mail practice, including the 
   _perception_ (and sometimes the reality) of being another Pete Salzman.

o  Listadmin sanctions should be immediately disclosed to the erring
   member, cc'd to the public record, _and_ should have a preannounced
   duration, _and_ expiration of that time period should again be
   politely disclosed to the person CC'd to the public record.

   A small but highly public mailing list operated for administrative
   purposes turns out to make a pretty good public record for these
   purposes, especially if you stress to the misbehaving person that 
   he/she is entirely free to discuss the matter there and _not_ 
   subjected to any sanctions for so doing.

   The existence of such a public record means your -actual- 
   de-facto enforcement can be confirmed and observed without 
   suspicions of convenient inconsistencies and undisclosed 
   personal vendettas.

o  Be as nice and have as relaxed/indulgent an attitude as you can
   manage, both as a goal in itself and to help avert escalation.
   (People being criticised tend to double down out of anger.)

o  As many hard rules as possible should be automated and applied by 
   the mailing list software.  This dictum emerged from something
   I noticed and was surprised by:  If as listadmin you ask members,
   however politely, to cease doing something obviously wrongful, 
   they give you endless backtalk and bad attitude, but if you 
   configure GNU Mailman to make said misbehaviour unsuccessful, 
   they perceive this as 'just the way the mailing list works' 
   rather than a rule applied by humans and somehow open to debate
   with them getting a vote.

   For example, I mentioned the half-dozen main trolls on the main
   SVLUG mailing list having a habit of escalating any discussion
   of listadmin sanctions by cross-posting their backtalk to additional 
   mailing lists.  I tried the gentle 'Please don't do this' approach
   exactly once before adding Mailman spam filters causing any future
   crossposts matching that pattern to be autorejected.

   But before that, for quite a few months, several posters kept 
   cross-posting for other reasons, most notably a past SVLUG VP, 
   Mr. Bill Ward.  I politely asked Ward (and the others) to 
   avoid those cross-posts because they caused considerable extra
   manual work in the held-messages queues for each of the mailing 
   lists' listadmins as soon as subscribers of one or the other
   lists attempted cross-posted replies without being subscribed
   to all of them.  Ward (most particularly) angrily asserted his
   right to keep misbehaving, and felt that he need not respect 
   my and the other listadmins' time (which, after all, we were
   giving away for free, so how dare we object to it being wasted).

   I didn't further argue with Ward, because I _did_ value my time.  ;->
   However, I noticed that after I created the anticrossposting filters
   to foil the trolls' escalation game, not only did none of them 
   try to complain and argue against those, but neither did Ward and
   the other habitual crossposters.

   My best guess:  Their not seeing a human to argue with resulted
   in them classifying this change as 'just how the mailing list works' 
   rather than as a 'rule', where they felt a moral entitlement to 
   bicker with and 'vote' against the latter but not the former.

   A quick look through GNU Mailman's administrative screens will show 

Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

I wrote:

> 5.  Web forums have poor presence in Web search prominence and archives
> like Wayback Machine / Internet Archive.  (In fairness and in contrast,
> crowdsourced knowledgebase sites like StackExchange are uncommonly good
> in those areas.)

Particular relevance of this is that, along with the recurring problem
of Web archives suddenly getting blown away or disappearing, it's
relevant to the experienced computerist's judgement of 'Why should I
participate in _this_ Internet place?'  My impression is that many feel
as I do, that I'd rather participate in a place where my postings will 
reach many people (including via search results) over a long period of
time.  Hence, a mailing list with high search prominence and a long
expected lifetime is (all other things being equal) a better use for my
time and trouble.

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> Rick's analysis is superb. And I couldn't even try if I wanted to, for
> insufficient resources (referring to my aptitude), and for lack of time, to
> reply up to his standards.

My goodness, thank you.

> But some of the arguments given apply, in different manner, to mailing lists.

I'll use this opportunity to comment a bit further.

> E.g.: try visit: https://gmane.org/
> Type Devuan in the search box. You will likely still get only:
[snip]

But fortunately GMane is hardly the only way to find Internet
information, and dyne.org's mailing lists are well indexed by search
engines and widely archived.

Some additional things I forgot to include:

1.  A mailing list subscriber can have extremely fine control over local
presentation, e.g., I have a ~/.mailcap entry that prevents me from
being shown garish HTML.  Controlling a Web forum's presentation locally
is a much more difficult problem, addressable if at all using Web
stylesheets and Greasemonkey scripts.

2.  I said in an aside to Steve Litt that he should please hold the
thought about 'rising to complain about debian-user', but then never got
back to that.  I've heard Steve and others bitterly complain about being
stifled there by Debian's listadmins, seemingly one of several
motivations for establishment of Dng.  (I've never been a debian-user
subscriber; on rare occasions, I've browsed the Pipermail archives.)

So, yes, examples can be cited of mailing lists enacting oppressive
'regimes of active moderation and retromoderation'.  This is relatively
rare, and part of the reason for that is:  Remedies (metaphorically,
safety valves) exist.  A typical mailing list displays in postings and
the archives the provided names and real e-mail addresses of
participants.  If the mailing list configuration permts, subscribers
also have access to the subscriber roster.  Therefore, subscribers 
can do out-of-band discussion about the administrative regime, and can
speak with, and be spoken to by, anyone who has been ejected or muzzled.
Therefore, an oppressive mailing list administrative regime cannot
easily prevent visibility into, and scrutiny of, its practices,  (Signs
of attempting to do so are also easy to notice:  private mailing list
achive not visible to the public, subscriber roster visible to
listadmins only, listadmin names/real e-mails not revealed only 'role'
addresses, etc.)  And the ultimate safety valve always beckons:  A large
subset of the subscribers saying 'Sod this for a lark' and moving to a
different mailing list elsewhere.

None of that is true, typically, of Web forums, where by design you do
not by default even know the other subscribers' e-mail addresses and in
most cases you know only a site-specific 'handle' useless for finding
that person out-of-band.

A Web forum is thus, relatively speaking, like a water-monopoly empire
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire) that cannot be defeated
or reformed from within because its central control cannot be evaded.
But with mailing lists, there are remedies.


> What I liked best in his (future?; pls give us the link once it's done)
> [future] FAQ is:
> > regimes of active moderation and retromoderation are much more common,

Some day, I would like to write a 'listadmin best practices' article,
because I've learned a great deal as a listadmin (and site operator) for
dozens of mailing lists for LUGs and for volunteer organisations over
some decades since the 1990s (majordomo days!).  One guiding principle
I've adopted is based on one of Larry Wall's virtues for programmers:
'A smart listadmin is a lazy listadmin.'

A great deal follows from that, including always seeking to impose the
smallest possible amount of listadmin social control, because that is
always ongoing work, and for little benefit.  Also, when you must
sanction a user, it becomes advisable to use the _absolute minimum force_,
not because that's nicer so much as because it simply works better.

Some listadmin do otherwise (apply what I regard as hypercontrol) for,
I'm sure, a variety of reasons that they find compelling and I won't 
say they're 

Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170713-18:09+0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> On 13.07.2017 16:37, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> 
> > So true. I'm still banned from Gentoo Forums (also because I never asked to 
> > be
> > back; I didn't feel I was to blame in the least).
> 
> By the way: heared some rumors that some people are banned from this
> list, too.
> 
There were reports on the list, but have no extra time to search for them, how
some people, in indirect terms, by commenting on ongoing discussions, expressed
desire to be allowed back in. And that's the only way, this public list, that I
learned about them. They were even named, and the person reporting his (I think
it was a male) comments asked why he was banned? But there was no more talk on
the list about him.

If it is some serious fault, what can you?

But if it isn't, people should have a recourse. Really if, *if* it isn't which
I don't know if it is or isn't, but neither does the public, apparently, have
any means to know if it is or isn't some serious fault/transgression...

Really *if* it isn't some grave fault, then it can't be just a person or two
to decide and that's it... without any recourse to a broader, higher authority
in Devuan. And...

But I think it shouldn't be kept kind of secret who and why was banned. Unless
there are some rare, but those are really rare and do not comprise, say, vanity
hurt of some, say project leader, to make just a concrete example...

Unless there are some really serious reasons to not do it, the facts about
someone being banned need to be public to all the community.

...And (unless there are, but those are exceptions and vanity hurt is not such,
reasons to the contrary), that's not openness that is promised in the Devuan
constitution-in-the-making:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/DevuanConstitution

I know that paragraph 3.3:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/DevuanConstitution#33-we-will-not-hide-problems
concerns bugs, but it is in the spririt of openness promised to apply such
attitude to not hiding problems with the nasty users, rebelious testers,
maverick/unruly devs, whoever...

I was banned in plain daylight from the Gentoo forums, some people expressed
regret with the way I was dealt with, and really wrote publicly such brief but
nice words in my favor... but it wasn't done secretly. And it always needs to
be openly done...

No secret backroom decisions like in Sylicon Valley Linux Users Group (IIRC),
like the note to SVLUG (IIRC) that Rick Moen gave link to, in maybe second or
third previous, chronologically, email of his, from this point, in this
thread...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/13/2017 12:09 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> On 13.07.2017 16:37, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>
>> So true. I'm still banned from Gentoo Forums (also because I never
>> asked to be
>> back; I didn't feel I was to blame in the least). 
>
> By the way: heared some rumors that some people are banned from this
> list, too.
>

What does heared mean? I have heard of heard or hurd, but never heared...

xD just messing...

why did miro get banned from gentoo?

>
> --mtx
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 13.07.2017 16:37, Miroslav Rovis wrote:


So true. I'm still banned from Gentoo Forums (also because I never asked to be
back; I didn't feel I was to blame in the least). 


By the way: heared some rumors that some people are banned from this
list, too.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170712-21:59-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > A mailing list is like vendors shipping to your house.
> > 
> > Forums are like calling 15 stores to see whether they have any orders
> > for you yet.
> 
> I may have to FAQ this on my Web site, because it keeps coming up.
> 
> 1.  There are far greater social and technical factors that motivate /
> create an incentive towards strong, centralised content control on Web
> forums, with the result that
> regimes of active moderation and retromoderation are much more common,
  ^ ^ ^  
  | | |
> hence the result tends to be 
> more strongly stifled by the admins than on mailing lists.  (I can
> picture my friend Steve Litt rising to complain about debian-user,
> and can only say 'Hold that thought, Steve.')
> 
> 2.  In particular, because on Web forums there is (typically) nothing
> anywhere near as effective as are killfiles (old school, e.g., mutt) or
> scorefiles (new school, e.g., emacs Gnus) available to participants to
> avoid seeing what/who annoys them, instead the forum admins are under
> greater social pressure to enforce social conformity against everyone, 
> with stifling results.
> 
> In case the contrast between the two models is not obvious, note this
> statement of policy at Silicon Valley Linux User Group for its mailing
> lists, which may be a more stark expression of attitude than most but 
> I would maintain reflects an ethos common among mailing list admins:
> 
>   SVLUGs' listadmins normally intervene only to ensure lists' technical
>   operation, to halt spam (incontrovertible spam, not postings someone
>   merely dislikes), and to halt major eruptions of offtopic spew.
>   Enforcement if any should always be minimal and public. (We don't do
>   backroom politics, and our preferred means of social control is to help
>   everyone apply his/her own well-tuned killfile.)
> 
> http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.php
> 
> (Necessary disclaimer:  I wrote that, codifying consensus among the
> active volunteers and SVLUG tradition.)
> 
> 
> 3.  It is relatively difficult (or at least requires non-default
> anticipatory action) to independently preserve local copies of one's Web
> forum postings against the (strong) possibility of that Web forum
> folding up its tent in the night and disappearing.  By contrast, I
> still have automatically made archival copies of my outgoing posts to
> mailing lists and newsgroups going all the way back to the 1980s, and
> have in some cases HTMLised those a decade or two later to create
> articles for my http://linuxmafia.com/kb/ knowledgebase.  By contrast,
> the Web forum posts I've lavished time on since the mid-1990s have
> pretty nearly all vanished when those forums suddenly went away without
> advance notice.
> 
> 4.  Which reminds me:  Web forums have over the decades since the 1990s
> tended, disproportionately to get clobbered (to suddenly die, to vanish
> off the Web, to go 'Poof!') without notice.  Sometimes, this is caused
> by a corporation hiring some new Web weenie who decides to make a name
> for himself/herself by jettisoning everything the prior Web weenie did
> including choice of Web forum software -- and the new Web weenie feels
> not the slightest obligation to port over to the new implementation
> anything people posted to the existing forums.  That's merely 'Web
> content', and, if the suckers who wrote that valued what they wrote, why
> did they post it onto a corporation's proprietary forum without charge?
> So, all existing content gets blown away without a second thought.
> Denizens of InfoWorld Electric went through this process twice before
> some of us learned the obvious lesson.  The third iteration was a
> ghost-town.  (I'm sure Web weenie #3 trotted out a fluent excuse for
> IDG/Infoworld management, explaining the sudden lack of participants +
> traffic.)
> 
> In that regard, it's probably significant that it's pretty easy to carry
> forward archives and membership rosters from one host to its replacement
> or from (e.g.) majordomo to Sympa to Mailman, because the underlying
> data formats are stable and commoditised.  Web forums, not.
> 
> 5.  Web forums have poor presence in Web search prominence and archives
> like Wayback Machine / Internet Archive.  (In fairness and in contrast,
> crowdsourced knowledgebase sites like StackExchange are uncommonly good
> in those areas.)
> 
> 6.  In part because of the relative difficulty of preserving local
> copies of one's posts, in part because of the no-killfiles problem,
> and in part because of the webmasters-blowing-everything-away problem, 
> and in part because of poor search presence, experienced computer users
> are more likely than not to prefer mailing lists / newsgroups over Web
> forums, which in turn impairs the latter's percentage of well-informed
> users _in general_ (with honourable exceptions such as, I assume,
> 

Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> A mailing list is like vendors shipping to your house.
> 
> Forums are like calling 15 stores to see whether they have any orders
> for you yet.

I may have to FAQ this on my Web site, because it keeps coming up.

1.  There are far greater social and technical factors that motivate /
create an incentive towards strong, centralised content control on Web
forums, with the result that regimes of active moderation and
retromoderation are much more common, hence the result tends to be 
more strongly stifled by the admins than on mailing lists.  (I can
picture my friend Steve Litt rising to complain about debian-user,
and can only say 'Hold that thought, Steve.')

2.  In particular, because on Web forums there is (typically) nothing
anywhere near as effective as are killfiles (old school, e.g., mutt) or
scorefiles (new school, e.g., emacs Gnus) available to participants to
avoid seeing what/who annoys them, instead the forum admins are under
greater social pressure to enforce social conformity against everyone, 
with stifling results.

In case the contrast between the two models is not obvious, note this
statement of policy at Silicon Valley Linux User Group for its mailing
lists, which may be a more stark expression of attitude than most but 
I would maintain reflects an ethos common among mailing list admins:

  SVLUGs' listadmins normally intervene only to ensure lists' technical
  operation, to halt spam (incontrovertible spam, not postings someone
  merely dislikes), and to halt major eruptions of offtopic spew.
  Enforcement if any should always be minimal and public. (We don't do
  backroom politics, and our preferred means of social control is to help
  everyone apply his/her own well-tuned killfile.)

http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.php

(Necessary disclaimer:  I wrote that, codifying consensus among the
active volunteers and SVLUG tradition.)


3.  It is relatively difficult (or at least requires non-default
anticipatory action) to independently preserve local copies of one's Web
forum postings against the (strong) possibility of that Web forum
folding up its tent in the night and disappearing.  By contrast, I
still have automatically made archival copies of my outgoing posts to
mailing lists and newsgroups going all the way back to the 1980s, and
have in some cases HTMLised those a decade or two later to create
articles for my http://linuxmafia.com/kb/ knowledgebase.  By contrast,
the Web forum posts I've lavished time on since the mid-1990s have
pretty nearly all vanished when those forums suddenly went away without
advance notice.

4.  Which reminds me:  Web forums have over the decades since the 1990s
tended, disproportionately to get clobbered (to suddenly die, to vanish
off the Web, to go 'Poof!') without notice.  Sometimes, this is caused
by a corporation hiring some new Web weenie who decides to make a name
for himself/herself by jettisoning everything the prior Web weenie did
including choice of Web forum software -- and the new Web weenie feels
not the slightest obligation to port over to the new implementation
anything people posted to the existing forums.  That's merely 'Web
content', and, if the suckers who wrote that valued what they wrote, why
did they post it onto a corporation's proprietary forum without charge?
So, all existing content gets blown away without a second thought.
Denizens of InfoWorld Electric went through this process twice before
some of us learned the obvious lesson.  The third iteration was a
ghost-town.  (I'm sure Web weenie #3 trotted out a fluent excuse for
IDG/Infoworld management, explaining the sudden lack of participants +
traffic.)

In that regard, it's probably significant that it's pretty easy to carry
forward archives and membership rosters from one host to its replacement
or from (e.g.) majordomo to Sympa to Mailman, because the underlying
data formats are stable and commoditised.  Web forums, not.

5.  Web forums have poor presence in Web search prominence and archives
like Wayback Machine / Internet Archive.  (In fairness and in contrast,
crowdsourced knowledgebase sites like StackExchange are uncommonly good
in those areas.)

6.  In part because of the relative difficulty of preserving local
copies of one's posts, in part because of the no-killfiles problem,
and in part because of the webmasters-blowing-everything-away problem, 
and in part because of poor search presence, experienced computer users
are more likely than not to prefer mailing lists / newsgroups over Web
forums, which in turn impairs the latter's percentage of well-informed
users _in general_ (with honourable exceptions such as, I assume,
http://dev1galaxy.org/ ).  Which in turn is a further disincentive for
experienced users to participate.

7. Mailing lists and newsgroups benefit, substantially from an
established user culture that pretty well supports substantive
discussion.  Web forums, not so well.

All IMO and in my 

[DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 23:34:48 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:


> (personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
> publish stuff on web pages??)

A mailing list is like vendors shipping to your house.

Forums are like calling 15 stores to see whether they have any orders
for you yet.

When you sign up for a mailman type mailing list, you don't promise to
do squat.

When you sign up for a forum, you typically sign a 2000 word terms of
service with an indemnification such that if a third party sues the
forum vendor for something you allegedly did, your house is on the
line. And of course every forum has its own unique terms of service,but
they all have indemnifications, just different types.

When someone responds to one of your old mailing list posts, the
response comes to you, in context, ready to reply.

When somebody responds to your old post on a forum, you get an email
and have to remember your password to sign onto the forum. You have to
find the old post and figure out its context.

So far I've spoken of forums the way they existed in the 20th century.
There's a special place in hell for those advocating a free software
project go through a proprietary middleman like Google, Facebook,
Meetup, LinkedIn or Yahoo for forum-like activities (groups). When they
do that, I resign from the group and find a new one. There's always
another group when one goes to the proprietary dark side.

Invariably, when a mailinglist converts to a forum, especially one of
the new breed of oh-so-hip proprietary middlemen, conversation drops
off to a trickle, although Dev1 Galaxy seems to be doing better than a
trickle.

And then there's this: Forums are like those nice little loyal customer
savings fobs that every retailer gives you to put on your keyring to
get discounts. But that's just it. Every retailer. You end up with a
keyring with 4 keys and 100 fobs, bulging out of your pants. Heck, at
least the fobs don't require a password like forums do. I can't join
a forum for every, or even 1/10, of the excellent mailing lists to
which I belong. So whose forum should I choose, Devuan, Supervision,
GoLUG, Trilug, Inkscape, Publishers-Forum, Vim, VimOutliner, DIYPython,
Leo, or the 20 other excellent LUG lists to which I belong? Evvverybody
thinks theirs is the best and worth extra effort, but really, they're
all good and the ones demanding extra attention are more of a problem
than a solution.

There's a reason mailing lists and chat do well: All your passwords are
handled by the client (or in the case of a mailing list, not at all).


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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