Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 09:09:31PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: > Good time of the day, Hendrik. > > > On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:14:06 -0400 you wrote: > > > If you know which key it is. > > > > > -- One key for > > > cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, > > > saving file ! -- Again, what can be easier?! > > > > If you know which key it is. > > > > Is there an explanatory legend on-screen somewhere? > > What could be easier than just look at the screen bottom of > MCeditor/MC ?! I'll take that as a yes. I don't have the releavant software installed, because I keep typing mc when I mean mv, so I can't just look. -- hendrik k ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Didier. On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:01:10 +0200 you wrote: > Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you > know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. > Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a > dilemma :-) Well. I've read somewhere one said, that Stallman (do not how to spell right his lastname), himself, had betrayed free software for his own editor (probably regarding some dealing of "Red Hat"). So, GNU, well, but thinking how to live "the right way" -- nobody abolished. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Hendrik. On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:18:31 -0400 you wrote: > > Pardon, but funny! :o) > > Funny, yes, but very true. I don't think they looked at keyboard > distance between the various commands when they named them. You can make a symlink to mc w/ whatsoever name you would. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Hendrik. On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:14:06 -0400 you wrote: > If you know which key it is. > > > -- One key for > > cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, > > saving file ! -- Again, what can be easier?! > > If you know which key it is. > > Is there an explanatory legend on-screen somewhere? What could be easier than just look at the screen bottom of MCeditor/MC ?! Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/16/2015 04:11 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > for instance we may have refractalinux for a good devuan based live, or > dynebolic for multimedia studio, or centurionlinux (made up thinking of Dan) > for a good server base. Devuan should serve well as a reliable base for all > those, as this is exactly where Debian is failing. > Yes, I would like to build refracta on devuan, and I could also make a live iso of the default devuan desktop installation. If anyone has specific requests, let me know. Whenever the beta installer comes out, I'll probably make a live iso of the installation. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 15, 2015 5:06:33 PM GMT+02:00, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: >On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 >Franco Lanza wrote: > >> traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. > >Except that Debian does not have it when a boot prob sends you to the >rescue console ;-3( I certainly hear you on this one. Initrd can certainly use some improvements. To do after we reach the 1.0. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
dear Golinux On July 15, 2015 6:16:32 PM GMT+02:00, Go Linux wrote: >Maybe what Devuan needs is a 'sys admin' version (perhaps w/o a DE) and >an 'ordinary user' version (with xfce and less complicated tools than >vi as default). as we stated on the website, me and others believe Devuan should be first and foremost a reliable base system granting freedom of choice both to its upstream and downstream. I believe that for finished products to be shipped and supported we need to leave incentives open for developers, including the possibility to re-brand the distro into "blends", as well have their own ad-hoc support plans, even commercial if they want. for instance we may have refractalinux for a good devuan based live, or dynebolic for multimedia studio, or centurionlinux (made up thinking of Dan) for a good server base. Devuan should serve well as a reliable base for all those, as this is exactly where Debian is failing. so Devuan is really a fork of Debian, not a blend or respin, since it provides a different base where choices for it *as a base system* are made with clearly different priorities. as many people here are asking for a reliable and minimalistic desktop I really hope Refracta can catch up with that, knowing you use it and know the developer who is also with us on IRC, I'd rather encourage that as a downstream effort instead of making Devuan finished for the specific purpose. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 2015-07-19 14:19, Nextime wrote: On July 19, 2015 6:52:28 PM CEST, "T.J. Duchene" wrote: Hi, everyone! =) With all this discussion about changes, I'd like to make sure that the UNIX guru/programmer is represented. I've mentioned this before, and I hate repetition - BUT - I feel it is important enough that it should be stated separately so that it is not overlooked. All this discussion about replacing defaults concerns me that someone might inadvertently break some standards that they are unfamiliar with. Yes, before anyone says anything, I already know that Linux does not entirely comply with POSIX standards, and deliberately breaks it in places. I just do not want to see any "Linuxisms" and breakage compounded further. Systemd everywhere is bad enough. When I say that, I am not saying that Systemd breaks POSIX. It technically doesn't. It does, however, break scripts on occasion; in spite of arguments by the systemd developers that does not. I'm hoping that Devuan does not make similar mistakes while moving in a different direction. I do not think anyone cares WHAT the default changed to is as long as Devuan has vi and other "old school" tools installed by default to comply with the POSIX standard. Thanks and have a wonderful day! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng All changes are evaluated only if they will make devuan equally or more posix/unix compliant, not less. Nice to know that. -- Stop slacking you lazy bum! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
+1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
I declare this topic a dead. Let's bury the remains without fanfare and get on with forking Debian and making Devuan the best universal linux distrobution ever. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:53:11 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: 2) have vi only You can't do that. Even the most enthusiastic vi/Vim advocate remembers with horror the first few days he/she got dragged into vi/Vim. For the purpose of a Linux installation, you need something beyond intuitive, it must be obvious. I've heard it's currently defaulting to nano and also offering a stripped down vi. Why not leave well enough alone? SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 07:23:44PM +0200, Nextime wrote: > On July 19, 2015 7:07:09 PM CEST, Renaud OLGIATI > wrote: > >On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:53:11 +0200 > >Didier Kryn wrote: > > > >> I agree with you that, if an editor is as small and more > >intuitive > >> and self-explanatory than Nano, it can be a good choice. But let's > >not > >> complicate the problem by envisionning too many combinations. The > >> proposed alternative was: > >> 1) have nano and vi installed and nano as the default, like in > >Debian > >> 2) have vi only > > > >I fail to see the problem: > >If I want to use vi, I invoque $ vi > >if I want to use nano, I invoque $ nano > > > >The problem only arioe when I was sent to a rescus console, and $ vi > >does not start anything, probably in hindsight because I have /usr on a > >separate partition, and vi is unavailable in such a case. *If* you have busybox installed, "busybox vi" should work. Alternatively, install elvis-tiny. > >And of course at the time I did not know about nano... > > > The issue, for me, is that after install i have to remove nano, or at > least change the $EDITOR env var. I don't like to find nano when i do > a crontab -e or a visudo. update-alternatives --list editor update-alternatives --set editor /usr/bin/vim.* See update-alternatives(8) for more details. > Anyway, the solution is already established, nothing will change in > jessie, for ascii a menu will permit to choose the default editor, > vim-tiny will be installed in any case. I honestly hope that this "choose the default editor" menu does it right and works with the alternatives system, rather than brute forcing the issue by installing only one editor. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 19/07/2015 20:07, Didier Kryn wrote: You say "crapware"; I've also read "bloatware". Everyone complains about GNU, including me, but I don't forget everyone is or should be immensely gratefull for the wonderful software they provide to the world, free and open. Think of gcc, glibc, emacs, latex... GNU is and has always been a political project more than a technical one. And it has been very successful with its main goal, which is great; I cannot thank GNU/Linux enough for giving me access to a free Unix-like operating system in my learning years, and for providing a serious alternative to Microsoft in the server world (serious as in: it works about as well and it is cheaper). However, GNU should not be taken for what it isn't, and great ideologies do not good engineering make. GNU is awesome when all the alternatives you have are proprietary software, but the picture gets much uglier when you start looking under the hood and evaluating the software from a sheer technical viewpoint. Most of GNU *is* bloatware, and a significant part of it makes outright bad technical choices; some well-known GNU tools are a consistently bad experience for people who use them everyday and either don't know better, or have no choice because there really isn't any other free alternative. Do not be afraid to give credit where credit is due *and* point out faults where they are; these are not contradictory. And I actually believe that the best way you can be grateful to GNU is to be brutally honest with them so you give them a chance to improve. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 19/07/2015 19:40, T.J. Duchene a écrit : -Original Message- From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Didier Kryn Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 12:01 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes Hey T.J. Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a dilemma :-) Good day. Didier [T.J. Duchene] LOL! =) You make a wonderful point, Didier. Quirks in GNU tools *are* a pain at times, I heartily agree. Still, what cannot be cured must be endured. I think if the FSF actually embarked on making sure their "crapware" (my personal phrase - no offense anyone) function even remotely close to BSD style (that everyone else outside of Linux uses), they would have to do a complete rewrite. Usually, you just install the GNU tools along with the ones the OS provides and hope for the best when trying to compile. But no, that really was not what I was concerned about. I'm not criticizing Devuan directly, but common standards really aren't the Linux way lately, and it is becoming rather tiresome, at least to me. This is not Devuan's fault, but as a whole, no one involved with Linux seems to care about cross-platform standards anymore. I really do not care of nano is the default editor. I've used it myself, along with joe, vi and an bunch of others over the years. I was just trying to make sure that if things are going to be replaced - as it is inevitable - that common standard remain intact as much as possible. Take care! T.J. You say "crapware"; I've also read "bloatware". Everyone complains about GNU, including me, but I don't forget everyone is or should be immensely gratefull for the wonderful software they provide to the world, free and open. Think of gcc, glibc, emacs, latex... Seen from today, GNU is almost as old as Unix and I don't consider either of them is more entitled than the other to set the standard. I only have personnal preferences :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
* On 2015 19 Jul 05:22 -0500, Ста Деюс wrote: > Good time of the day, Micky. > > > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:24 +0200 you wrote: > > > I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. > > Do not know what is quique, and i'm seems to me, not a "real men", but > the "MC" and it mceditor -- are a great software -- not only providing > a must functionality on any distro, but even doing that very well and > user-friendly. I agree. I have been using mc since 1996 and mcedit since it was incorporated into mc--not sure how long. but a long time. It is the first package I install on a fresh system, however, I am not going to request that it be in the base installation as there is plenty there already and I have no problem with apt-get. I have also set mcedit to be the default editor for me on a few systems and it works well, if a bit quirky. It's syntax highlighting is better (IMHO) than just about anything else out there and I often use it just to browse source files, etc. BTW, I've never had quiche. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 19, 2015 7:42:52 PM CEST, Go Linux wrote: >On Sun, 7/19/15, Nextime wrote: > > Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Sunday, July 19, 2015, 12:23 PM > > [cut] > >> The issue, for me, is that after install i have to remove nano,or at >least change the >> $EDITOR env var. I don't like to find nano when i do a crontab -e or >a visudo. > > >> Anyway, the solution is already established, nothing will change in >jessie, for ascii a menu >> will permit to choose the default editor, vim-tiny will be installed >in > > any case. > > > > -- > > nextime > > > > > >It's been obvious for a long time that Devuan is scratching your >personal itch. Nothing wrong with that. It's what drives a lot of >software development. And in fact, I envisioned the exact scenario you >described of having to reset the text editor every time you installed. >Must be really annoying. (Isn't there a script to automate that?) But >the big picture is that Devuan is about more than just YOU! I >appreciate the recent decisions that you have made regarding defaults >as they provide choice for all users, not just elite sys admins. Carry >on with this magnificent project!! > >golinux Well of course i propose things I think are usefull, but i ask and consider other opinions as devuan isn't my toy, is what want to be a universal solution ;) -- nextime ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, 7/19/15, Nextime wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, July 19, 2015, 12:23 PM [cut] > The issue, for me, is that after install i have to remove nano,or at least > change the > $EDITOR env var. I don't like to find nano when i do a crontab -e or a > visudo. > > Anyway, the solution is already established, nothing will change in jessie, > for ascii a menu > will permit to choose the default editor, vim-tiny will be installed in > any case. > > -- > nextime > It's been obvious for a long time that Devuan is scratching your personal itch. Nothing wrong with that. It's what drives a lot of software development. And in fact, I envisioned the exact scenario you described of having to reset the text editor every time you installed. Must be really annoying. (Isn't there a script to automate that?) But the big picture is that Devuan is about more than just YOU! I appreciate the recent decisions that you have made regarding defaults as they provide choice for all users, not just elite sys admins. Carry on with this magnificent project!! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
> -Original Message- > From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Didier Kryn > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 12:01 PM > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes > > Hey T.J. > > Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you > know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. > Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a dilemma :-) > > Good day. > Didier > [T.J. Duchene] LOL! =) You make a wonderful point, Didier. Quirks in GNU tools *are* a pain at times, I heartily agree. Still, what cannot be cured must be endured. I think if the FSF actually embarked on making sure their "crapware" (my personal phrase - no offense anyone) function even remotely close to BSD style (that everyone else outside of Linux uses), they would have to do a complete rewrite. Usually, you just install the GNU tools along with the ones the OS provides and hope for the best when trying to compile. But no, that really was not what I was concerned about. I'm not criticizing Devuan directly, but common standards really aren't the Linux way lately, and it is becoming rather tiresome, at least to me. This is not Devuan's fault, but as a whole, no one involved with Linux seems to care about cross-platform standards anymore. I really do not care of nano is the default editor. I've used it myself, along with joe, vi and an bunch of others over the years. I was just trying to make sure that if things are going to be replaced - as it is inevitable - that common standard remain intact as much as possible. Take care! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 19, 2015 7:07:09 PM CEST, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: >On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:53:11 +0200 >Didier Kryn wrote: > >> I agree with you that, if an editor is as small and more >intuitive >> and self-explanatory than Nano, it can be a good choice. But let's >not >> complicate the problem by envisionning too many combinations. The >> proposed alternative was: >> 1) have nano and vi installed and nano as the default, like in >Debian >> 2) have vi only > >I fail to see the problem: >If I want to use vi, I invoque $ vi >if I want to use nano, I invoque $ nano > >The problem only arioe when I was sent to a rescus console, and $ vi >does not start anything, probably in hindsight because I have /usr on a >separate partition, and vi is unavailable in such a case. > >And of course at the time I did not know about nano... > >Cheers, > >Ron. >-- > Les Américains commettront toutes les conneries imaginables; > et même celles auquelles on ne pense pas. > -- Général Charles de Gaulle > > -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- > > >___ >Dng mailing list >Dng@lists.dyne.org >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng The issue, for me, is that after install i have to remove nano,or at least change the $EDITOR env var. I don't like to find nano when i do a crontab -e or a visudo. Anyway, the solution is already established, nothing will change in jessie, for ascii a menu will permit to choose the default editor, vim-tiny will be installed in any case. -- nextime ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 19, 2015 6:52:28 PM CEST, "T.J. Duchene" wrote: >Hi, everyone! =) > >With all this discussion about changes, I'd like to make sure that the >UNIX guru/programmer is represented. I've mentioned this before, and I >hate repetition - BUT - I feel it is important enough that it should be >stated separately so that it is not overlooked. All this discussion >about replacing defaults concerns me that someone might inadvertently >break some standards that they are unfamiliar with. Yes, before anyone >says anything, I already know that Linux does not entirely comply with >POSIX standards, and deliberately breaks it in places. > >I just do not want to see any "Linuxisms" and breakage compounded >further. Systemd everywhere is bad enough. When I say that, I am not >saying that Systemd breaks POSIX. It technically doesn't. It does, >however, break scripts on occasion; in spite of arguments by the >systemd developers that does not. I'm hoping that Devuan does not make >similar mistakes while moving in a different direction. > >I do not think anyone cares WHAT the default changed to is as long as >Devuan has vi and other "old school" tools installed by default to >comply with the POSIX standard. > >Thanks and have a wonderful day! > >T.J. > >___ >Dng mailing list >Dng@lists.dyne.org >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng All changes are evaluated only if they will make devuan equally or more posix/unix compliant, not less. -- nextime ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:53:11 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > I agree with you that, if an editor is as small and more intuitive > and self-explanatory than Nano, it can be a good choice. But let's not > complicate the problem by envisionning too many combinations. The > proposed alternative was: > 1) have nano and vi installed and nano as the default, like in Debian > 2) have vi only I fail to see the problem: If I want to use vi, I invoque $ vi if I want to use nano, I invoque $ nano The problem only arioe when I was sent to a rescus console, and $ vi does not start anything, probably in hindsight because I have /usr on a separate partition, and vi is unavailable in such a case. And of course at the time I did not know about nano... Cheers, Ron. -- Les Américains commettront toutes les conneries imaginables; et même celles auquelles on ne pense pas. -- Général Charles de Gaulle -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 19/07/2015 18:52, T.J. Duchene a écrit : Hi, everyone! =) With all this discussion about changes, I'd like to make sure that the UNIX guru/programmer is represented. I've mentioned this before, and I hate repetition - BUT - I feel it is important enough that it should be stated separately so that it is not overlooked. All this discussion about replacing defaults concerns me that someone might inadvertently break some standards that they are unfamiliar with. Yes, before anyone says anything, I already know that Linux does not entirely comply with POSIX standards, and deliberately breaks it in places. I just do not want to see any "Linuxisms" and breakage compounded further. Systemd everywhere is bad enough. When I say that, I am not saying that Systemd breaks POSIX. It technically doesn't. It does, however, break scripts on occasion; in spite of arguments by the systemd developers that does not. I'm hoping that Devuan does not make similar mistakes while moving in a different direction. I do not think anyone cares WHAT the default changed to is as long as Devuan has vi and other "old school" tools installed by default to comply with the POSIX standard. Thanks and have a wonderful day! T.J. Hey T.J. Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a dilemma :-) Good day. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 19/07/2015 13:06, Ста Деюс a écrit : Good time of the day, Didier. On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:20:27 +0200 you wrote: With nano, how to save and exit, etc is writen permanently on the 2 bottom lines. If you were to explain how to navigate, insert or erase text, save and exit with vi, the screen wouldn't be large enough. Complex editors are not suitable as fallback; this is true also for emacs. I think comfortability comes w/ the easy to use / common (well known beforetimes) keys -- for nano it is written at the bottom, it is true, but in a disaster and may nervous circumstances -- it is strains a lot -- to see every time i need, say, to save a file -- w/ its no need questions: are you sure? what's the name -- though file is opened and the name is well known. -- For copy/paste procedure, to mark the text for selection -- i even keep quite -- never got the procedures happen. On another hand, MCedit uses just F3 key and the cursor keys -- what can be easier to go to and fro -- for selecting?! -- One key for cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, saving file ! -- Again, what can be easier?! Of course, unless you keep the life harder, or have trodden the way of vi/emacs and would not that those disasters were in vain -- no need for MCedit, but i see no reasons for others to live hard way. Pardon me for a bit of personal criticism -- i would not offend any, just really can understand the reason of existing/using such editors. Regards, Sthu. Hi Sthu. I agree with you that, if an editor is as small and more intuitive and self-explanatory than Nano, it can be a good choice. But let's not complicate the problem by envisionning too many combinations. The proposed alternative was: 1) have nano and vi installed and nano as the default, like in Debian 2) have vi only I, like most others tried to remain within this alternative. Regards, Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Hi, everyone! =) With all this discussion about changes, I'd like to make sure that the UNIX guru/programmer is represented. I've mentioned this before, and I hate repetition - BUT - I feel it is important enough that it should be stated separately so that it is not overlooked. All this discussion about replacing defaults concerns me that someone might inadvertently break some standards that they are unfamiliar with. Yes, before anyone says anything, I already know that Linux does not entirely comply with POSIX standards, and deliberately breaks it in places. I just do not want to see any "Linuxisms" and breakage compounded further. Systemd everywhere is bad enough. When I say that, I am not saying that Systemd breaks POSIX. It technically doesn't. It does, however, break scripts on occasion; in spite of arguments by the systemd developers that does not. I'm hoping that Devuan does not make similar mistakes while moving in a different direction. I do not think anyone cares WHAT the default changed to is as long as Devuan has vi and other "old school" tools installed by default to comply with the POSIX standard. Thanks and have a wonderful day! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 04:37:55PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: > Good time of the day, Hendrik. > > > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:48:33 -0400 you wrote: > > > My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I > > mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode > > I have to figure out how to get out of. > > Pardon, but funny! :o) Funny, yes, but very true. I don't think they looked at keyboard distance between the various commands when they named them. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 05:36:56PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: > Good time of the day, Didier. > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:20:27 +0200 you wrote: > > > With nano, how to save and exit, etc is writen permanently on the 2 > > bottom lines. If you were to explain how to navigate, insert or erase > > text, save and exit with vi, the screen wouldn't be large enough. > > Complex editors are not suitable as fallback; this is true also for > > emacs. > > I think comfortability comes w/ the easy to use / common (well known > beforetimes) keys -- for nano it is written at the bottom, it is true, > but in a disaster and may nervous circumstances -- it is strains a lot > -- to see every time i need, say, to save a file -- w/ its no need > questions: are you sure? what's the name -- though file is opened and > the name is well known. -- For copy/paste procedure, to mark the text > for selection -- i even keep quite -- never got the procedures happen. > > On another hand, MCedit uses just F3 key and the cursor keys -- what > can be easier to go to and fro -- for selecting?! If you know which key it is. > -- One key for > cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, saving > file ! -- Again, what can be easier?! If you know which key it is. Is there an explanatory legend on-screen somewhere? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Didier. On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:20:27 +0200 you wrote: > With nano, how to save and exit, etc is writen permanently on the 2 > bottom lines. If you were to explain how to navigate, insert or erase > text, save and exit with vi, the screen wouldn't be large enough. > Complex editors are not suitable as fallback; this is true also for > emacs. I think comfortability comes w/ the easy to use / common (well known beforetimes) keys -- for nano it is written at the bottom, it is true, but in a disaster and may nervous circumstances -- it is strains a lot -- to see every time i need, say, to save a file -- w/ its no need questions: are you sure? what's the name -- though file is opened and the name is well known. -- For copy/paste procedure, to mark the text for selection -- i even keep quite -- never got the procedures happen. On another hand, MCedit uses just F3 key and the cursor keys -- what can be easier to go to and fro -- for selecting?! -- One key for cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, saving file ! -- Again, what can be easier?! Of course, unless you keep the life harder, or have trodden the way of vi/emacs and would not that those disasters were in vain -- no need for MCedit, but i see no reasons for others to live hard way. Pardon me for a bit of personal criticism -- i would not offend any, just really can understand the reason of existing/using such editors. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Didier. On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 00:41:18 +0200 you wrote: > If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are > gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary > people with a limited but usable editor. I think the reason is in the small images, that will be available after release. And suppose you have not Internet access w/ a machine you have to repair -- then the minimal iso contents may play its important role. As for me, i have being in such situations -- and it was terrible for me to use even nano, though w/o even that editor i had to use even ed ! -- Whereas it could be absolutely another deal, had i mc/mcedit on such disk. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
I'm not agree with that. I begin with debian ( at school ) and nano default editor permit to focus learn how distro work and not how can write something. First impressions are very important when we start with new distro. The good solution is, for me, add in installer the choice of the default éditor. Le 19/07/2015 12:30, Ста Деюс a écrit : > Good time of the day, Klaus. > > > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:02:55 +0100 you wrote: > >> Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is >> not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix >> admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D > > I do not agree. I also use Linux not the first decade, and all that > time never used vi(m) and always used MC even in X-sessions. Especially > it is of great worth when in single mode (when repairing OS): MC and > MCedit. > > On other hand vim/nano -- are hard to use w/ its not usual keys binding > and other stuff -- i do not remember of already for now. Whereas MCedit > uses F-keys -- that people could get habit when they used DOS programs. > -- Also, for every F-key there is a note below the screen -- so that w/ > a single key press a function is called, and even a newbie can do basic > and essential functions. > > So MC is the proper choice. > > > Regards, Sthu. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Klaus. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:02:55 +0100 you wrote: > Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is > not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix > admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D I do not agree. I also use Linux not the first decade, and all that time never used vi(m) and always used MC even in X-sessions. Especially it is of great worth when in single mode (when repairing OS): MC and MCedit. On other hand vim/nano -- are hard to use w/ its not usual keys binding and other stuff -- i do not remember of already for now. Whereas MCedit uses F-keys -- that people could get habit when they used DOS programs. -- Also, for every F-key there is a note below the screen -- so that w/ a single key press a function is called, and even a newbie can do basic and essential functions. So MC is the proper choice. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Micky. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:24 +0200 you wrote: > I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Do not know what is quique, and i'm seems to me, not a "real men", but the "MC" and it mceditor -- are a great software -- not only providing a must functionality on any distro, but even doing that very well and user-friendly. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, John. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:34:57 +0200 you wrote: > Gets my vote - lost without mc and the first thing I always install Me too. As we suppose "Devuan" to be for at least advanced users, many of whom may, as the first stage of install process, simply install the base of the system -- just to get into the new box -- from where they install/remove whatsoever they want. -- For such tasks it is good to a text-based file manager, and what adds score to it -- it even has a built-in editor -- the easiest i have found among the text-based. So, the choice seems to vivid regarding the package. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Hendrik. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:48:33 -0400 you wrote: > My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I > mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode > I have to figure out how to get out of. Pardon, but funny! :o) Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 09:04:43 -0700 jce wrote: > > But as far as the vi vs. nano as *default* editor thing, I think nano > would generate a lot less "how do I get out of this thing?" traffic > for devuan support. > Gentlemen, please excuse me if this seems blunt - but - I think the odds of anyone complaining about vi are realistically extremely low. While I respect a healthy discussion, I'd just like to say I feel it is entirely a moot point. Devuan is basically the same style and audience as Debian, which means 90% of the people using it already know their way about in UNIX. The probability is very low that a newcomer is going to use Devuan at all. Even if a newcomer does use Devian, their expectation is going to want to be using a X11 text editor to edit config files - if necessary in root mode. If we want to make things friendly, accommodating that desire is probably the best option. Aside from that, new and intermediate users are probably going to look up instructions, and follow whatever they say; which we can't possibly anticipate, unless someone intends to write a Devuan Manual. There is no real consistency of instruction on the Web, and they are going to do whatever the web says. By far, the widest instructed text tool is vi, and it is the only one guaranteed to be on every POSIX. Advanced users are going to use whatever they want. As far as I know, Debian already installs nano by default, alongside vi. I suggest that we just do the same and let the matter rest. Thanks for reading and have a great day! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 07:38:06AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:57:47PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > > I'm a long time *nix user/contributor and have > > never become comfortable with vi*, even after several tries. Which > > editor you like is personal, like the food you eat, e.g. vegetarian or > > meat or ... > > It's easier to change your food preferences than editor. The latter > involves years of muscle memory. For example I got used to Wordstar > bindings at the age of 6 and now, 31 years later, I'm still stuck, despite > repeatedly trying. If you haven't found something that's suitable yet, you might try joe (specifically, the 'jstar' command from joe or joe-jupp). If you've found something else already, I'd be curious what it is. Thanks, Isaac ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/17/2015 06:18 AM, Steve Litt wrote: Do you use joe by any chance? After Wordstar on my Kaypro 2x, I used Wordstar keystrokes in the Borland products for years. joe is a much more capable editor than nano, but just as lightweight and easy to use. It has full block select/copy/move/delete functionality. When called with 'jstar', it has Wordstar command capability. The 'help' keystroke is clearly marked at all times at the top of the screen. The first thing I've always done on a new Linux install is install joe (and mc), but to each his own. But as far as the vi vs. nano as *default* editor thing, I think nano would generate a lot less "how do I get out of this thing?" traffic for devuan support. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:38:06 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:57:47PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > > I'm a long time *nix user/contributor and have > > never become comfortable with vi*, even after several tries. Which > > editor you like is personal, like the food you eat, e.g. vegetarian > > or meat or ... > > It's easier to change your food preferences than editor. The latter > involves years of muscle memory. For example I got used to Wordstar > bindings at the age of 6 and now, 31 years later, I'm still stuck, > despite repeatedly trying. Do you use joe by any chance? After Wordstar on my Kaypro 2x, I used Wordstar keystrokes in the Borland products for years. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:57:47PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > I'm a long time *nix user/contributor and have > never become comfortable with vi*, even after several tries. Which > editor you like is personal, like the food you eat, e.g. vegetarian or > meat or ... It's easier to change your food preferences than editor. The latter involves years of muscle memory. For example I got used to Wordstar bindings at the age of 6 and now, 31 years later, I'm still stuck, despite repeatedly trying. -- ⢎⣉⠂⠠⠤⡀⣄⠤⡀⠠⡅⠀⠤⡧⠄⡄⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠠⡅⠀⡠⠤⠄⠀⠀⠀⢴⠍⠀⡠⠤⡀⣄⠤⡀⠀⠀⠀⠤⡧⠄⣇⠤⡀⡠⠤⡀⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⡄⡠⠤⡀⠠⠤⡀⡇⡠⠄⠀⠀⠀ ⠢⠤⠃⠪⠭⠇⠇⠀⠇⠀⠣⠀⠀⠣⠄⠨⠭⠃⠣⠀⠬⠭⠂⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠣⠤⠃⠇⠀⠀⠣⠄⠇⠀⠇⠫⠭⠁⠀⠀⠀⠣⠣⠃⠫⠭⠁⠪⠭⠇⠏⠢⠄⠀⠄⠀ (https://github.com/kilobyte/braillefont for this hack) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 03:00:35PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Guys, if you don't mind my saying so, I think that change to the sake of > change is really not very useful. > > More importantly, Devuan needs to keep vi installed in any case, in > order to conform to the POSIX standard. I'm tired of the Linux > community deciding to ignore UNIX standards. If Devuan is going to > break even further from away from POSIX then the usual Linux, then to be > perfectly honest, I will not be using it. Of course, keep vi around in the default install because it's standard. Just don't force it on people who haven't had the chance to choose a default editor. -- hendrik > > At the very least can we agree that if we are going to change things > that a POSIX metapackage is needed so that conformance can be obtained > as close as possible with ease? Sounds useful. Could use it to bring things back to conformance if they've strayed over time, too. > > Thanks! Have a great day! =) > > T.J. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 02:59, Franco Lanza wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano -> vim exim -> postfix what do you guys think about that? Hello Franco, If my vote counts, I definitely like that changes. The first thing that I usually do after installing Debian is to purge exim4 and do |"update-alternatives --config editor" then change nano to vi. About postfix, I asked some questions last month (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150607.154320.b31195f0.en.html) but no answer/response/suggestion. So I hope postfix 3.0 will be used to replace exim. Cheers, Anto | ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Guys, if you don't mind my saying so, I think that change to the sake of change is really not very useful. More importantly, Devuan needs to keep vi installed in any case, in order to conform to the POSIX standard. I'm tired of the Linux community deciding to ignore UNIX standards. If Devuan is going to break even further from away from POSIX then the usual Linux, then to be perfectly honest, I will not be using it. At the very least can we agree that if we are going to change things that a POSIX metapackage is needed so that conformance can be obtained as close as possible with ease? Thanks! Have a great day! =) T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 16/07/2015 18:41, Isaac Dunham a écrit : Honestly, the first time I encountered nano, I thought "How on earth do you use this?" In nano, like in every text editor except vi, you don't need to change mode between navigation and typing. You navigate with arrows (maybe that's less intuitive for you than navigating with printable characters). You insert text by simply typing it, and you erase it with backspace. When you are in the fallback editor, you dont do complex regex replacement. I don't use nano, except when emacs is not installed yet and/or I forgot to define EDITOR. With nano, how to save and exit, etc is writen permanently on the 2 bottom lines. If you were to explain how to navigate, insert or erase text, save and exit with vi, the screen wouldn't be large enough. Complex editors are not suitable as fallback; this is true also for emacs. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:41:08AM -0700, Isaac Dunham wrote:
> I'd like to respond to this, even though I think 'no change' is the best
> policy at the moment.
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 12:41:18AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit :
> > >Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is
> > >not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix
> > >admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice.:-D
> > I remember 30 years ago, there was an admin in my lab advocating for vi.
> > I tried to find a manual and couldn't find one. Several time I watched the
> > guy editing some files and was impressed by how painfull it was to him to
> > change a single character in a text. I have been using emacs and emacs-like
>
> Change a single letter:
>
> r
> :x
>
> Sorry, I don't see how that's painful unless you're talking about someone
> who either didn't know the software or had a hard time finding the letter.
Many beginners don't know the software.
Many experienced usersdon't know the software, because they use a different
editor.
That's exactly the problem. That's why vi isn't suitable as an initial
default editor, however useful it may be as a user-chosen editor.
...
...
> Honestly, the first time I encountered nano, I thought "How on earth do
> you use this?"
> Sure, it has the cheat sheet right at the bottom of the screen, but even
> then a *new* user will be lost by the terminology they use ("Write out"?
> "Where is"? What does "cur pos" mean? How do you select text? How do you
> paste text?).
>
> That said, the first time I encountered vi I was even more baffled;
> sure, I read a description of how to use hjkl, i, and :wq/:q!, but even
> if you commit that to memory, press one wrong key and you're done.
> (Speaking of which, it would be really nice if we could at least enable
> multiple undo by default...)
> And I really don't think that there's a way to make vi user-friendly.
> But pick up any book on learning *nix, and within a few chapters you'll
> find a section on vi. And the fact that it's a relative of sed is a point
> that makes it easier to pick up.
>
> But I have never managed to figure out how to use emacs, and even the way
> the keybindings are written is a bit of a WTF. (Whose idea was it to
> represent the modifier keys by the first letter of their *nix name?)
Emacs isn't suitable either.
>
> If I were to pick a default editor with the intent of making an easy-to-use
> system, my first pick would be joe/jupp; while it doesn't have the cheat
> sheet at the bottom of the screen, it tells you how to get help, and that
> help is more useful than nano's.
I haven't tried joe. Maybe it's better than nano. Maybe it would be an
excellent initial default editor. Is it small? Does it require a GUI?
But neither vi not emacs are suitable as initial default editor.
-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 21:25:08 -0300 hellekin wrote: > On 07/15/2015 01:40 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > > > > Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, > > as nor debian does. > > > > For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and > > we should not compete with it. > > > *** I STRONGLY oppose this view, and you already know why: there are > plenty of ways to build upon a minimalist base and provide an easy > "upgrade" from total newbie to guru in a snap with preseed files, > tasks, "seeds", or blends. I agree with Franco's view, and I think if we all came in with the same definitions, you would too hellekin. When he said "new users", I don't think he meant intelligent people who just haven't used Linux before. I think he meant the type who say "Oh, my, I can't learn anything, the computer should just understand what I mean and do it. My computer is an appliance just like my toaster, and I just want it to do its job. Oh, my, I can't change a config file, I can't even use an editor, I'm not a programmer. Oh, my, I can't remember names of programs, so I can't use a hierarchical menu. I need something like Unity or Gnome3 or Windows 10 to find the way for me. Those people never used Debian in the first place. They used *buntu or Mint. I think what Franco was saying is that we should neither dumb down nor complexify up Devuan to accommodate the clueless. I *don't* think he was saying to make it ridiculously difficult like Gentoo, Funtoo, Arch and Slackware. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:44:21AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Hendrik Boom" > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: > >> I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default > >> editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to > >> use vi! > > > > NO. Not every Unix user. Only the ones that use Unix variants that > > force vi on them. Only those have to use vi. > > Hendrik, > > Just curious -- do any distros come with emacs as the default editor? I > don't use emacs, and have never tried running it from a default install > of any distro I've ever used. I'm not sure if it's the default editor, but it's included in the Scientific Linux live cd (a ~400-500 MB live cd with icewm and a few other things). HTH, Isaac ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
I'd like to respond to this, even though I think 'no change' is the best
policy at the moment.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 12:41:18AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit :
> >Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is
> >not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix
> >admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice.:-D
> I remember 30 years ago, there was an admin in my lab advocating for vi.
> I tried to find a manual and couldn't find one. Several time I watched the
> guy editing some files and was impressed by how painfull it was to him to
> change a single character in a text. I have been using emacs and emacs-like
Change a single letter:
r
:x
Sorry, I don't see how that's painful unless you're talking about someone
who either didn't know the software or had a hard time finding the letter.
Navigate to a location by line number:
:
Search for a word or phrase:
/
...Those seem pretty simple, too.
Replace occurences of a regex with an expression on the current line:
:s///g
Through the whole file:
:%s///g
From the current line to the end of the file:
:.,$s//expr>/g
From the start of the file to the current line:
:1,.s//expr>/g
Run a command:
:!command
Replace the current line with the output of a command that reads the
current file:
:.!command %
> editors for 33 years I think. Of course I don't ask to have emacs installed
> by default (it is huge), nor even a small emacs clone, such as mg. If
> there's always vim-tiny, why are people asking to remove nano? If the gurus
> use vim and dislike nano, since they are gurus, they can change the default
> themselves and leave the ordinary people with a limited but usable editor.
For one thing, you almost certainly will get dumped into the default
editor during the install, and using nano is rather painful (especially
if you use vi).
Honestly, the first time I encountered nano, I thought "How on earth do
you use this?"
Sure, it has the cheat sheet right at the bottom of the screen, but even
then a *new* user will be lost by the terminology they use ("Write out"?
"Where is"? What does "cur pos" mean? How do you select text? How do you
paste text?).
That said, the first time I encountered vi I was even more baffled;
sure, I read a description of how to use hjkl, i, and :wq/:q!, but even
if you commit that to memory, press one wrong key and you're done.
(Speaking of which, it would be really nice if we could at least enable
multiple undo by default...)
And I really don't think that there's a way to make vi user-friendly.
But pick up any book on learning *nix, and within a few chapters you'll
find a section on vi. And the fact that it's a relative of sed is a point
that makes it easier to pick up.
But I have never managed to figure out how to use emacs, and even the way
the keybindings are written is a bit of a WTF. (Whose idea was it to
represent the modifier keys by the first letter of their *nix name?)
If I were to pick a default editor with the intent of making an easy-to-use
system, my first pick would be joe/jupp; while it doesn't have the cheat
sheet at the bottom of the screen, it tells you how to get help, and that
help is more useful than nano's.
As a bonus for those who prefer RSI, it comes with a 'jmacs' mode that
imitates emacs (which, of course, I have not tested). There's also
jpico, which is a clone of the 'pico' editor that nano is a clone of.
Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:44:21AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Hendrik Boom" > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: > >> I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default > >> editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to > >> use vi! > > > > NO. Not every Unix user. Only the ones that use Unix variants that > > force vi on them. Only those have to use vi. > > Hendrik, > > Just curious -- do any distros come with emacs as the default editor? I > don't use emacs, and have never tried running it from a default install > of any distro I've ever used. No idea. But if Richard Stallman were to have a distro, it might start out with emacs. I always install it first chance I get. -- hendrik > > > nano is, as far as I can see, nobody's favorite editor. But it's also > > nobody's anathema. It will give you enough breathing room to choose > > the editor you really want. > > Agreed. Even though I am always annoyed when I run 'visudo' on a new > system and get nano. But I know how to change it so it's no big deal. > > -Rob > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
- Original Message - > From: "Hendrik Boom" > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: >> I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default >> editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to >> use vi! > > NO. Not every Unix user. Only the ones that use Unix variants that > force vi on them. Only those have to use vi. Hendrik, Just curious -- do any distros come with emacs as the default editor? I don't use emacs, and have never tried running it from a default install of any distro I've ever used. > nano is, as far as I can see, nobody's favorite editor. But it's also > nobody's anathema. It will give you enough breathing room to choose > the editor you really want. Agreed. Even though I am always annoyed when I run 'visudo' on a new system and get nano. But I know how to change it so it's no big deal. -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Micky. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:17:01 +0200 you wrote: > I completely agree with Franco. > On every unix the default editor is vi, so it must be in devuan, if > somebody doesn't like it, he can use apt-get to install his favorite > editor. Let's look at another point of view: why is it there? -- For, and we have FS layout that nowadays does not reflect disk size/speed abilities. So, let's better consider its practical side than just history/"others do so" -one -- for going the way "as others" will end up no need in "Devuan" -- as it will have the US spyware "D". Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 01:40 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > > Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as > nor debian does. > > For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we > should not compete with it. > *** I STRONGLY oppose this view, and you already know why: there are plenty of ways to build upon a minimalist base and provide an easy "upgrade" from total newbie to guru in a snap with preseed files, tasks, "seeds", or blends. For example there should be a minimal base install of Devuan that allows anyone to build upon and make a derivative; there should be a server install aimed at system administrators, and there yes, you can default to vim and postfix; and there should be a default desktop install with XFCE. But making such choices as ignoring new users by default is in my opinion a sorry strategy when it's so easy to build upon a sane base. > > Second focus is to be a "base framework" for derivatives > *** Well, I think that the "base framework" should be the default Devuan, and everything we do is built upon that e.g., as Blends. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 07:41 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:
> If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are
> gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary
> people with a limited but usable editor.
>
*** Totally agree: why put a burden on the profane when it takes two
seconds for any *NIX user to override the default editor?
When people open an editor, they want to type on the keyboard and see
their input reflected on the screen, not figure out why they can't. Vi
does not offer this by default, and I don't know if it can start in
INSERT mode.
Note that "vi -y", the "easy mode" seems to automatically switch to
INSERT mode when you type, but then it doesn't understand ESC-: for
commands AND does not accept C-Z to suspend*, so it's actually harder to
use than normal vi... /o\
Maybe IF AND ONLY IF vim-tiny can be started in INSERT mode and suggests
the user how to save, exit, and get help, then it can work as a good
replacement for nano.
* BTW, I don't think nano supports suspend by default in the upstream
configuration. That could be a good change to make to the default nano
configuration ("set suspend"). Nothing more annoying than being unable
to suspend a process (also looking at you "vi -y").
==
hk
--
_ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 15/07/2015 21:04, Micky Del Favero a écrit : I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to use vi! Micky, First the argument that we should do this because it has always been like that is "not acceptable" - I don't want to use stronger words. Secondly you have noticed that at least half the readers of this list do not know how to use vi and you pretend to force them! Are you trying to start a vi/emacs war? Le 15/07/2015 18:56, Hendrik Boom a écrit : Let's not force any editor with a steep learning curve on the beginner. Is there another editor as easy to*start* using as nano? This is the most sensible argument expressed up to now on the subject. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit : Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice.:-D I remember 30 years ago, there was an admin in my lab advocating for vi. I tried to find a manual and couldn't find one. Several time I watched the guy editing some files and was impressed by how painfull it was to him to change a single character in a text. I have been using emacs and emacs-like editors for 33 years I think. Of course I don't ask to have emacs installed by default (it is huge), nor even a small emacs clone, such as mg. If there's always vim-tiny, why are people asking to remove nano? If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary people with a limited but usable editor. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: > Svante Signell writes: > > > Please don't exchange nano for vim. If you install vim as default you > > should also install emaacs-nox for those not comfortable with > > vim. nano is a simple editor good enough to edit e.g. configuration > > files and to enable installation of vim/emacs/whatever if needed. > > I always use emacs, but I also think it's too big to fit in default > installation and i don't ask to install emacs-nox, as every emacs user > I know the magic ESC :q! combination to quit vi :-) > > I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default > editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to > use vi! NO. Not every Unix user. Only the ones that use Unix variants that force vi on them. Only those have to use vi. nano is, as far as I can see, nobody's favorite editor. But it's also nobody's anathema. It will give you enough breathing room to choose the editor you really want. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 16/07/15 04:40, Franco Lanza wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:29:26AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: In that case, my next question would be "Do we want to cater to those who are new to Linux/Unix?" If yes, then nano is a good choice. If no, then vi is a good choice. Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as nor debian does. But it should not beat them over the head and say go away either!!! For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we should not compete with it. So your implying new users are better off with systemd then?? We should focus on moderately expert to professional sysadmins and geeks, so, after some years of ubuntu if a user want to go to a more UNIX compliant distro, should switch to devuan. I think you are being to narrow here. Perhaps we could add the "I am a geek and don't need my hand held" mode to the installer :p Second focus is to be a "base framework" for derivates, and then derivates can of course choose to focus on users, and to do that switch to a more easy to learn editor maybe, or maybe switch to a GUI editor for newbies. That's a reasonable point, although we need Devuan to get to a stable point first, and for that we do need users - even newbs to help us refine the installer to make it easier across the board. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 2015-07-15 at 21:04 +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: > Svante Signell writes: > > > Please don't exchange nano for vim. If you install vim as default you > > should also install emaacs-nox for those not comfortable with > > vim. nano is a simple editor good enough to edit e.g. configuration > > files and to enable installation of vim/emacs/whatever if needed. > > I always use emacs, but I also think it's too big to fit in default > installation and i don't ask to install emacs-nox, as every emacs user > I know the magic ESC :q! combination to quit vi :-) > > I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default > editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to > use vi! nano is small and useful enough for all (newbies and experienced) to use for simple editing! And it has an online help. For experienced people they know how to install and make vi*/emacs*/whatever the default editor and to change $EDITOR. (I'm a long time *nix user/contributor and have never become comfortable with vi*, even after several tries. Which editor you like is personal, like the food you eat, e.g. vegetarian or meat or ...) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:38:43PM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:35:03AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > > Which is Devuan intended to be? > > > > 1) Debian without systemd > > 2) A Debian-like distro > > > > Nor 1 or 2. > Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: > 1- freedom of choice > 2- UNIX philosophy > 3- KISS philosophy > > Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. But > saying that devuan is just "debian withous systemd" is riductive. The normal way of writing that first sentence would be Of course, first of all, those 3 points... > traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. No packages > needs to be changed at all for this eventual switch, and anyway, > as devuan respect the users, this choice isn't an imposition from "the > hight", but it's a question to the whole ml userbase to listen pro/cons. For exactly the same reason I would conceptually like to have vi as the default editor. (But then, I've added POSIXLY_CORRECT=1 to my .profile, and removed bash from one of my Debian installs.) But I hesitate to support your proposal for a few reasons: * I don't think it's time to be changing Jessie in a way that has a big impact on how it's used. Someone who is familiar with Debian Jessie should not have any gotchas when installing Devuan Jessie. (This is what I meant when I said it was a 'major' change.) However, I think this *would* be a good time to decide if this should go into Ascii. * IMHO, Devuan cannot simply concede user-friendliness to other distros at this point. All those 'other distros' are systemd-based, and we would be essentially telling new users "You're better off using systemd'. When someone has already started a blend/spin that is tuned towards new users and it's going well, it might be good to revisit the issue. * including both nano and vi would seem to be a better way to respect freedom of choice. We're not talking about much disk space, but it's acceptable to more users than any of the alternatives. It's a nice thought, but I don't see it being a good idea at this time. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 07:16:25PM +0200, Michael Bütow wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > +1 for not changing the defaults at this time. > > I feel this could start a multitude of little holy wars (editor, mta, > etc.) which we don't need right now that the first goal - "Debian, but > without systemd" - is within grasp. > > Expert users can adapt from the Debian defaults to do what they need. > I'd find it more valuable to have commonality with Debian here that > sysadmins can automate customisation on both with the least amount of > difference. After reading this entire thread so far, here's my take. I agree with the above. The initial goal of devuan as I understand was debian jessie without systemd. I think we should stick to that goal which is ambitious enough for devuan 1.0. As for defaults, I'd say leave the editor and MTA as is. I use mostly emacs-nox, but also do use vim-tiny at times as well. Having said that, I've gotten used to having nano as part of a fresh install, and have learned to work with well enough until I get to the point where I install whatever editor I want. Also, I do believe that nano is newby-friendly. Those of us who are more advanced and don't want nano should also be advanced enough to replace it with whatever we want . As for the MTA, I usually replace exim with postfix if I want to do advanced things, but configure exim to send through a smarthost if that's all I need. Finally, I would propose modifying the installer for releases of devuan beyond 1.0 to ask the user what they want as default. Somewhere in the "select and install software" section ask the user "select default editor to install," or "select default mail transport agent to install," followed by a list of what is available. If the user doesn't know what to choose, just install nano and exim4. We can extend this methodology to any other section where there are multiple choices. If we want to give users choice, I think this is the optimal way to do it! For those who don't want to go through picking all this software, and just want an install with the defaults, they can set debconf priority above a certain level, and avoid all those questions. Just my $0.01 worth. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
> > exim -> postfix > I'd like to suggest that Debian' use of a lightweight EXIM (not the full EXIM) remain the default over Postfix. I've managed and programmed Postfix servers before. It is not a trivial task, nor do I believe that Postfix makes a best replacement. Postfix has several longstanding quirks that can be very annoying or even problematic, especially when dealing with domain redirection or email address resolution. For example when using lists: b...@domain1.com bob b...@domain2.com bob2 The correct behavior standardized by sendmail and common sense is that email for those two addresses is distinct. Postfix will only look for the best, first match. So emails that should go to the bob2 account end up in "bob" instead. I do not know the Postfix devs have ever corrected this, I've been out of the server business for some time. If they have great, but I still think that Debian's choice over Postfix was the right call. There is a lot less to go wrong than with Postfix. T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Svante Signell writes: > Please don't exchange nano for vim. If you install vim as default you > should also install emaacs-nox for those not comfortable with > vim. nano is a simple editor good enough to edit e.g. configuration > files and to enable installation of vim/emacs/whatever if needed. I always use emacs, but I also think it's too big to fit in default installation and i don't ask to install emacs-nox, as every emacs user I know the magic ESC :q! combination to quit vi :-) I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to use vi! Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0100 Klaus Ethgen wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 1:59 schrieb Franco Lanza: > > exim -> postfix > > Why not nullmailer? I'd leave things the way they are. If there's a way to have nullmailer, in the absense of another SMTP server, get local email to the right place, I don't know how to do it. Nullmailer's wonderful, but unfortunately, error messages are so cryptic that the slightest error can be an hours-long troubleshoot. I mean, why say "Can't open file" and not mention the filename? Here are some docs I wrote on nullmailer: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/ http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/landmines.htm SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 11:52 AM, Steve Litt wrote: With the benefit of hindsight, having read everyone's responses, I now vote like this: When in doubt, change nothing! I'd leave well enough alone, and revisit this question after Devuan goes stable and we're planning the next version. SteveT SteveT, I agree. I think that is the correct route at least for this first branch of the fork away from Debian. The really funny thing is the people discussing this are not the folks who would prefer the "instructions at the bottom of the screen" nano, although the end user majority might. The reality is the people having the discussion might enjoy the traditional vi vs. emacs controversy and the UNIX vs, GNU stuff, but I think all can probably struggle with nano for a couple of minutes editing if the defaults don't work to pick a network connection, maybe edit the sources.list and then at the command prompt type "apt-get update" and then after some deep thought "apt-get install vim-tiny". Nano makes a pretty good bike shed. :-) Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 +1 for not changing the defaults at this time. I feel this could start a multitude of little holy wars (editor, mta, etc.) which we don't need right now that the first goal - "Debian, but without systemd" - is within grasp. Expert users can adapt from the Debian defaults to do what they need. I'd find it more valuable to have commonality with Debian here that sysadmins can automate customisation on both with the least amount of difference. Michael -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVppVpAAoJEIeCTMxZltMWMQkP/3BG4cxjjIF5e4mN11xajGrx 6QUXq/WuBxPKw7N0IdxoruXVQfbyL/906xqJK2ipnUDW264c/0YzkuKhxYuGiXPv LVOuz5WmKTfJvoJBO4DMxDregbzIAzPbje6ZOSV8GVntXEFCQPII1PL+8904dpJq P/gwXprNtC63ZaPW/dQ1rC3lP+dYTlmrDGaRxsYd00vCl+ob8VlM8Wg9geYSGpNJ fRYvHS7NKnS9SMC9JGbLkj8ZN07fK25Aq5iiYdvVW9pka24YaxWnSB42FDRJuzB4 O5YqFLuDbQtqTWveK7BdGCSQWQWOxH94RW1Zi5+snjlDPE7bE+JTKlFfMuhYFRMa WfRRX2poX2JdkYLrVGyImZPOEpoy8hjPIgijfShd/TVt0jQ+36TGCJWi/hYGOMy7 eoodrt0Q576oAmrF1nuQ5cGHLN/nYQiCBZl1So1vg5WhtxiRWl6QgdDS6lm+Z/0N QVCRE4RTCYM+pvpISUlsAg5FcVRV2fmQlEkUvGGaEX3/WKOu94oPhn16i+yTMya9 rXp7GIIYbhWcGFjZsxK9rNKIBRJgqWrZ9UHwQJq1o1qA4hwvFLreby6EPAf6cYF8 nMsDTOhmWQc+h6zJYxHt98RvXH6Cta2/y6/0dAL/ch6Cyc3E9P7oeSVAGm4rX3IL 9vcmqr26j3jJvPVRHllT =A70z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Having nano available (doesn't matter if it's default) on base installs is critical for me. I never ever use vi unless I'm using a distro with nano/pico not being available. I expect nano to be available in a base install with no DE. so having a 'sys admin' version without nano seems odd. overall it's just simpler to quick edit config files (for me) with nano and if I'm going to do any kind of development it's not going to be from command-line with vi. It's going to be with eclipse, emacs, or another IDE. On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Go Linux wrote: > On Wed, 7/15/15, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > > Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2015, 11:02 AM > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED > MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um > 16:27 schrieb John Crisp: > > On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > > > > . . . debian or devuan is > > not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix > > admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D > > > > I am not a beginner neither am I a 'veteran unix admin' so neither fish > nor fowl. > > My reasons for using Linux are technical of course - it's a better OS than > the proprietary alternatives. But they are more political than anything > else - fighting the corporate stranglehold that corporations have on all > aspects of our lives. After over 10 years, Linux is still a challenge when > I leave my comfort zone. Have mercy on the likes of me, please. > > Maybe what Devuan needs is a 'sys admin' version (perhaps w/o a DE) and an > 'ordinary user' version (with xfce and less complicated tools than vi as > default). > > golinux > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:29:26AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > In that case, my next question would be "Do we want to cater to those who > are new to Linux/Unix?" If yes, then nano is a good choice. If no, then > vi is a good choice. Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as nor debian does. For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we should not compete with it. We should focus on moderately expert to professional sysadmins and geeks, so, after some years of ubuntu if a user want to go to a more UNIX compliant distro, should switch to devuan. Second focus is to be a "base framework" for derivates, and then derivates can of course choose to focus on users, and to do that switch to a more easy to learn editor maybe, or maybe switch to a GUI editor for newbies. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 2015-07-15 at 02:59 +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix > > > what do you guys think about that? Please don't exchange nano for vim. If you install vim as default you should also install emaacs-nox for those not comfortable with vim. nano is a simple editor good enough to edit e.g. configuration files and to enable installation of vim/emacs/whatever if needed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
- Original Message - From: "KatolaZ" To: "Franco Lanza" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano -> vim exim -> postfix what do you guys think about that? I believe it's not time for changes in the defaults. The first thing I do on fresh installs is to pull in vim and emacs, make one of them the default editor and remove the bloody exim. But I understand that most users are unconfortable with vim, and nano is a viable alternative. In any case, the principle of minimum surprise should be a guiding rule of thumb. IMHO, a superificial Debian jessie user should not notice the difference between Devuan and Debian, until she has to manually start/stop a daemon from the terminal. Then, since you are asking, I personally would prefer to have an as small as possible fingerprint on the "basic" install, which possibly implies *not* having a lot of garbage, including a proper MTA, installed by default (nullmailer would be more than enough for most of the uses of a basic install). I am convinced that users should know exactly what they need before they find it already installed in their system. As a matter of fact, 99.9% of the users do not need an MTA more powerful than nullmailer, and maybe almost 90% of typical users do not ever need to edit a file. Those who need something else should already be able to apt-get install whatever. If they are not, then they should do a little reading first. Having vim or an MTA already installed does not automagically give you the sufficient knowledge to use them, BTW. My2Cents KatolaZ -- 1+ | ISMAEL | ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 7/15/15, Klaus Ethgen wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2015, 11:02 AM -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:27 schrieb John Crisp: > On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > > . . . debian or devuan is > not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix > admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D I am not a beginner neither am I a 'veteran unix admin' so neither fish nor fowl. My reasons for using Linux are technical of course - it's a better OS than the proprietary alternatives. But they are more political than anything else - fighting the corporate stranglehold that corporations have on all aspects of our lives. After over 10 years, Linux is still a challenge when I leave my comfort zone. Have mercy on the likes of me, please. Maybe what Devuan needs is a 'sys admin' version (perhaps w/o a DE) and an 'ordinary user' version (with xfce and less complicated tools than vi as default). golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 1:59 schrieb Franco Lanza: > exim -> postfix Why not nullmailer? nullmailer is fine for most beginners and for more you want to choose yourself. I personally do not like pestfix. It has some drawbacks: - - It is good for simple tasks but when the setup gets a bit more specific it is a pain in the a... - - It has no stable queue-ids - - It starts so many different daemons that are not fully clear if one needs them or not. (Cleaning up master.cf is a mess.) Definitely no KISS principle. Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpoWCAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasgM0L/3qhehc6yw4/XcWPEPB/yVa3 oAhhB/9jcs0I8T8zDb5Th9XySW8SPB7+JfDPl4iz+nsv5c0P+KmVnVvkg0vjRukQ hcLi1ScvvkPO3hKt1eEBUVWLehDXjxwt3jUjTia62yXRFOndSHoeOQeVS+ngiI3W nPYN6oRHo7s6k5VbU3E4ErSeoDLWxaAFjQEAMk5SmvFcg1FU/T9oBg+s2eWiXucR /uGU3Kc/Yo9smhSX8ZQqeUYXanz5kSW1G9MCFBp6f++D5Xm9Ai4KpVCvki9593yE vWykFjWuQ6kRgaLz4q7NOhIsVX2cXRk6xBLqypca6RrtbQVH48byR0YLJdgXriMb +dEJe4CXN1crsw/hEriUJi6GYZST5ZZ3XOw+jr3tC/vPWfkyLmscONVV+Ac8dSig 5k87Wjce+R7aQLCjsHgt1tq60JcU3zIvvVGAUNSMoKxrurv+C8RoyJHnGMri5qJA Atnh2BfiO09hcd9j0NrD6UkLZIw/gIEKIpuUHPCEQQ== =rxtY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:44:03AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: > > 1- freedom of choice > > 2- UNIX philosophy > > 3- KISS philosophy > > > > Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. > > I'd say the second and third points also make systemd unacceptable. > Three strikes and you're out. Well, sorry for my bad english, what i was meaning is "the first effect of those 3 points, all 3, is systemd become unacceptable" :D -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:27 schrieb John Crisp: > On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > > > > mc respectible mcedit is also a pain in the a... How often did I loose > > stuff due to the editor.. I have to damit that I used it sometimes 25 > > years ago when I start with linux but i learned pretty fast that it > > makes you just slow and not to use it... > > > > Seems the first release was 21 years ago (we all get a little memory > loss) and I've used it pretty well since then and never lost a file (I > can't say I am a heavy user). I've recovered plenty of systems with it > though. :-D Well, nearly.. I started playing with linux somewhat around '92 or '93. far before the version 1.0 However, had some experiences with other unix before and used NC on dos obviously. > It's a good tool for some quick navigation around and tickling the odd file. It was on dos with a limited shell. But with current shells like zsh I am much faster without and, most important, more flexible and more safe. Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpoQmAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfaswasL/243yXGukIvP57a/0QpKVC4u qjuKrf9/jXykR96BqlwgxAo+BnnYMaZaACCoPVzM1IzbtktO6iaPne7pbIC1KKMA xM7YpYornEYmB5Sbs+nWu9uPKa86BudKeK1bP62l4DqK3G9taVRG7X30vvGuCaI+ ydlJViozKaSbhv8FKHRtPaD5efnJBwtTaFYxog42jjT7cf3jSRfRizWFGg0Gd7mn kOqjemTCWtYIkPlmWkpmz09zbxf7SxuAKfWBe4weWQlqECgH/pqxLvciphKYxaQC yKEcTV+Doeg4V8zI/jE9nySQ68Hs6HZQkLXIUWIMu2zsfXHm/eGbDtIdOCuzUCUN FSUbHfuRCX+nkSg3NNQfG2Wj9k2rf/Bh1zAMEskc1LQI/lWrg7X8K1cseTLT7QXb hu0wU+VnPDglvk0VqUfP22NxVGNrdzigSrDVbGqQidvLPEtMcuIcaDIJr173puDD X4vhIBwgHgR13srf/XWW7HJAPfy5ZetzlLzy0+rsrw== =Czkw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 02:59:51 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i > would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix > > > what do you guys think about that? With the benefit of hindsight, having read everyone's responses, I now vote like this: When in doubt, change nothing! I'd leave well enough alone, and revisit this question after Devuan goes stable and we're planning the next version. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: > 1- freedom of choice > 2- UNIX philosophy > 3- KISS philosophy > > Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. I'd say the second and third points also make systemd unacceptable. Three strikes and you're out. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 06:39 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > I'm pretty sure oldschool vi *is* included in the basic install and > always has been. It usually is http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/vi.html http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ and nano is not. But the fewer changes in the first version of Devuan the better, IMHO as an interested user. Regards, Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:32:40 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:20:36AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:03:21 +0200 > > Peter Maloney wrote: > > > > > just run "vimtutor" and do what it says... it's only difficult if > > > you don't know the buttons. > > > > I will come down on the other side of the argument: As a Debian > > noob (after years of using Slack, Mandrake-Mandriva-Mageia) I was > > completely lost the first time I was thrown at boot-time into the > > recovery console, and there was no vi available... Cheers, > > I agree that a standard (minimal) vi should be included in the basic > install and possibly made available within the installer (even if "ed" > is always there and should be more than enough for simple recovery > tasks by any vi user, BTW... :P). > > HND > > KatolaZ > I'm pretty sure oldschool vi *is* included in the basic install and always has been. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
- Original Message - > From: "Franco Lanza" > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:35:03AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: >> Which is Devuan intended to be? >> >> 1) Debian without systemd >> 2) A Debian-like distro >> > > Nor 1 or 2. > Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: > 1- freedom of choice > 2- UNIX philosophy > 3- KISS philosophy > > Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. But > saying that devuan is just "debian withous systemd" is riductive. > > traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. No packages > needs to be changed at all for this eventual switch, and anyway, > as devuan respect the users, this choice isn't an imposition from "the > hight", but it's a question to the whole ml userbase to listen pro/cons. In that case, my next question would be "Do we want to cater to those who are new to Linux/Unix?" If yes, then nano is a good choice. If no, then vi is a good choice. I don't like using nano, and always install vim, followed by 'update-alternatives'. But I remember as a new user being frustrated that I couldn't follow a simple how-to because I didn't know how to use vi. When I discovered nano, it was a huge relief. I don't mind defaulting to nano for the sake of new users, even if nano isn't what I want to use. I know how to change the defaults. A new user does not. -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > > mc respectible mcedit is also a pain in the a... How often did I loose > stuff due to the editor.. I have to damit that I used it sometimes 25 > years ago when I start with linux but i learned pretty fast that it > makes you just slow and not to use it... > Seems the first release was 21 years ago (we all get a little memory loss) and I've used it pretty well since then and never lost a file (I can't say I am a heavy user). I've recovered plenty of systems with it though. It's a good tool for some quick navigation around and tickling the odd file. I've lost plenty with 'other editors'. Hey ho. As I said, YMMV. B. Rgds John signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:06 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 > Franco Lanza wrote: > > > traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. > > Except that Debian does not have it when a boot prob sends you to the rescue > console ;-3( Yes, and that is a pain in the a... nano is such a unusable editor; I never was able to use it. Even leaving is not that easy. vi (or vim-tiny) is the only editor that would be proper for such a important point. Some might argue "emacs" but that is a too big one (And I don't like it. ;-) mc respectible mcedit is also a pain in the a... How often did I loose stuff due to the editor.. I have to damit that I used it sometimes 25 years ago when I start with linux but i learned pretty fast that it makes you just slow and not to use it... Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpni5AAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasUGoL/1mb61jqf6WeAgPl/eNa5xPC jIfwV7vQz4ZC2SFsI8IvGMY7kmZnVklRTWIynWSpOKVJgb83+ev9J5WIgxwR7VEa RGMwvbbCY6IUbnSPd1Ic3lE4oisF+S5ZQv6tlRV3M1VsYvezRzBnaP2xaMszmjo5 0jLxbXU3EAazXk5KTgBRh8I0Pz9yqeb/A8ShMeqpCpZlC6je9gMBbfz18XydqRSR 8MXGyfANAYnx6F81GRofScm0AGgvIXfwSWGHZG8fNX61dS3RoRS3tb23UU9Sk28A U6wVoD9jmm2/x/1zkbHyHxSEVhpeCpqIEvsmPernWaFCc4nGVzroBk6DibFyjjSR y+0mcOp+q/NYslQ83At/8TuSxNZ7FZNLwmZZm37lsr6sC9u9vqlJo/d8aYmBK+GI xyy6YXQGKk71fINpV3h01N61Oh8wu1yD54/kULpQZVyy14toTrDeWRQ0rOXEOs58 9DiU3VLvGZfOC3tLsbu95ZiCNam3OQHfg4OpNoxDsg== =MjwZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 17:00, Micky Del Favero wrote: > > I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Each to their - the wonder of choice. I always did wonder why I never liked quiche though. Clearly I'm not a real man. Must remember to tell my wife and sons ;-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:24 +0200 Micky Del Favero wrote: > Real men don't eat quique. No, they (bake and) eat quiche... Cheers, Ron. -- Il est plus honteux de se défier de ses amis que d'en ètre trompé. -- Duc de Larochefoucault -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. Except that Debian does not have it when a boot prob sends you to the rescue console ;-3( Cheers, Ron. -- Il est plus honteux de se défier de ses amis que d'en ètre trompé. -- Duc de Larochefoucault -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Ста Деюс writes: > coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is > comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the On servers where mc is installed and I cannot remove it I always do $ echo alias mc=mv >> ~/.bashrc && . ~/.bashrc I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Franco Lanza writes: > when in debian we have nano and vim-tiny installed by default and > $EDITOR pointing to nano, i suggest to remove nano and point $EDITOR to > vim-tiny. +1 for pointing $EDITOR to vim-tiny > When in debian exim is installed as default MTA, we should choose > postfix instead. I agree also with it. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:35:03AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > Which is Devuan intended to be? > > 1) Debian without systemd > 2) A Debian-like distro > Nor 1 or 2. Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: 1- freedom of choice 2- UNIX philosophy 3- KISS philosophy Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. But saying that devuan is just "debian withous systemd" is riductive. traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. No packages needs to be changed at all for this eventual switch, and anyway, as devuan respect the users, this choice isn't an imposition from "the hight", but it's a question to the whole ml userbase to listen pro/cons. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 15:48, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: >> Good time of the day, Franco. >> >> I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, >> coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is >> comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the >> already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to >> work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever >> w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. Gets my vote - lost without mc and the first thing I always install > > My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean > mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have > to figure out how to get out of. > I don't believe mc is any more rocket science than vim. Just what you are used too. I just tried vim to see what happened. Friendly help screen and amongst other things : Type :help Type :q Is that type: 'q' or type ':q' (for the novice) If I so much as touch a letter I can see text on the screen but then couldn't figure out how the hell to quit because the help screen disappears, :q doesn't quit, then the help which helpfully disappeared doesn't come to your rescue with :help and I am then locked in a padded cell :-) Only took me a few minutes before I vaguely remembered to try and use ESC :qAh - get the cursor at the bottom. Wish they had mentioned that earlier.. Made me realise why I use mc/mcedit and gave up on vim - too cryptic for me. Admittedly mc could do with a 'Use F keys' on the front page but beyond that for most stuff. Clearly YMMV :-) B. Rgds John signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: > Good time of the day, Franco. > > > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 02:59:51 +0200 you wrote: > > > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i > > would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > > > nano -> vim > > exim -> postfix > > > > > > what do you guys think about that? > > I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, > coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is > comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the > already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to > work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever > w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have to figure out how to get out of. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Franco. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 02:59:51 +0200 you wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i > would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix > > > what do you guys think about that? I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Peter. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:03:21 +0200 you wrote: > just run "vimtutor" and do what it says... it's only difficult if you > don't know the buttons. There is some magic w/ the buttons: they use keys that are not found on keyboards -- i think it is a software from some planet of the "Debian universe"! :o) Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
- Original Message - > From: "Franco Lanza" > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix > Which is Devuan intended to be? 1) Debian without systemd or 2) A Debian-like distro If the answer is 1, then changes should be limited to only what is required to operate systemd-free. -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Hi, On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim I'd put sandy [0] for the use it's meant for (even when X is fsck.vfatted up you can still hope editing text interactively), otherwise nano is fine. Vim users like me can install it. > exim -> postfix OK > > > what do you guys think about that? [0]: http://tools.suckless.org/sandy -- Teodoro Santoni Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 7/15/15, Franco Lanza wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2015, 6:19 AM > Anyway, for all other pointing on "big changes" and so on, i > don't mean to change anything other than: > > when in debian we have nano and vim-tiny installed by default and > $EDITOR pointing to nano, i suggest to remove nano and point $EDITOR to > vim-tiny. > > So, not such a biug change at all That assumes the user knows where the $EDITOR option resides in the configuration files. Likely to be a bit of a pain for me, at least . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 06:55:59AM -0400, Haines Brown wrote: > > May I suggest that at this point, changes of this significance should be > > planned for the next cycle rather than thrown in at the last moment? Well, we are not exactly "at the last moment" as my proposition is that such changes are for the beta. Anyway, it's ok for the next cycle. > Yes, that makes sense. What is the "next cycle"? Alpha 1? On the other We are already at alpha 3 and close to beta :D Next cycle is to be intended as "for ascii", the testing or Devuan 2.0. Anyway, for all other pointing on "big changes" and so on, i don't mean to change anything other than: when in debian we have nano and vim-tiny installed by default and $EDITOR pointing to nano, i suggest to remove nano and point $EDITOR to vim-tiny. When in debian exim is installed as default MTA, we should choose postfix instead. So, not such a biug change at all -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Haines Brown wrote: > As for desktop environment, I assume the option of having none will remain. > With all this talk of xfce, I hope those who use none will be accommodated. Extrememly likely -- the current installer (since Debian jessie alpha 1 ?), which we are using, even added desktop selection to the tasksel step, unlike before where "kernel" arguments were the only install-time option! Both nano and vim-tiny are likewise already installed by default... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:53:50PM -0700, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > May I suggest that at this point, changes of this significance should be > planned for the next cycle rather than thrown in at the last moment? Yes, that makes sense. What is the "next cycle"? Alpha 1? On the other hand, it seems that abandonment of systemd and udev is itself very ambitious and the bugs fully worked out before tossing in an array of secondary changes. I suppose the core target is debianites who might want to migrate to devuan with the least change in their usual habits. > > nano -> vim As a nano and emacs user, the notion of having to use vim as well as emacs seems likely to confuse. Although space less of a concern these days, nano was always nice when you need to fit an editor into a small device. Other than the mentioned limitation, why switch? > > exim -> postfix Same question here: are there significant reasons to change? Why was the idea of dumping udev in favor of vdev etc. not mentioned? That strikes me as a more fundamental issue and should be tried out in next cycle. As for desktop environment, I assume the option of having none will remain. With all this talk of xfce, I hope those who use none will be accommodated. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 02:59, Franco Lanza wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim I think that one of the objective of the standard install is to keep it as simple and small as possible. Installing vim from the minimal install pulls something like 30M of extra stuff. I don't think that this is acceptable, think of embedded systems or containers that probably don't even need a text editor at all. The minimal install already comes with both nano and vim-tiny. Honestly I don't understand nano, it's probably the first thing that I purge from a fresh install, but I can also understand that some people aren't comfortable with vi, especially unix newcomers. I'm happy with the current situation (nano + vim-tiny) in the default install, it's still small, satisfies the immediate post-install needs of most users, and all packages are just one apt-get away anyway. > exim -> postfix Again, what's the difference in size? What are the requirements for a default mail server? I believe that the default mta is something that you don't necessarily want, per se, but gets pulled when some other package needs an mta. Probably in that case the mta would only be rquired to deliver local mails (think of cron) and send mails via a relay. I believe it should be something small and simple. If you want a real mta, then you'd install the one that you actually want to use, not the default. I've never used exim so I don't know how does it fit with this line of reasoning, but there are others like dma that look like good candidates to me. -- Mat ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:29 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: >> nano -> vim > I believe it's not time for changes in the defaults. The first thing I > do on fresh installs is to pull in vim and emacs, make one of them the > default editor and remove the bloody exim. But I understand that most > users are unconfortable with vim, and nano is a viable alternative. Repeating since I accidentally replied privately to Micky: Aren't both "nano" and "vim-tiny" already installed by default, at least with the pseudo-task "Standard system utilities"? (If we need to vote on something, count me in for nano, but as I just said it's a non-issue) > In any case, the principle of minimum surprise should be a guiding rule of > thumb. > IMHO, a superificial Debian jessie user should not notice > the difference between Devuan and Debian, until she has to manually > start/stop a daemon from the terminal. Debian made `service *` automatically translate to `systemctl *` as appropriate :) > Then, since you are asking, I personally would prefer to have an as > small as possible fingerprint on the "basic" install Indeed. Debian is relatively big even without "Standard system utilities"; Arch isn't, but after installing relatively little, dependencies enlarge them quite a bit... > Having vim or an MTA already installed does not automagically give you > the sufficient knowledge to use them, BTW. Absolutely true -- I can set up exim4 to link to Gmail, but it took me relatively a lot of research and the cooperation of debconf! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:20:36AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:03:21 +0200 > Peter Maloney wrote: > > > just run "vimtutor" and do what it says... it's only difficult if you > > don't know the buttons. > > I will come down on the other side of the argument: As a Debian noob (after > years of using Slack, Mandrake-Mandriva-Mageia) I was completely lost the > first time I was thrown at boot-time into the recovery console, and there was > no vi available... > > Cheers, I agree that a standard (minimal) vi should be included in the basic install and possibly made available within the installer (even if "ed" is always there and should be more than enough for simple recovery tasks by any vi user, BTW... :P). HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix > > > what do you guys think about that? I believe it's not time for changes in the defaults. The first thing I do on fresh installs is to pull in vim and emacs, make one of them the default editor and remove the bloody exim. But I understand that most users are unconfortable with vim, and nano is a viable alternative. In any case, the principle of minimum surprise should be a guiding rule of thumb. IMHO, a superificial Debian jessie user should not notice the difference between Devuan and Debian, until she has to manually start/stop a daemon from the terminal. Then, since you are asking, I personally would prefer to have an as small as possible fingerprint on the "basic" install, which possibly implies *not* having a lot of garbage, including a proper MTA, installed by default (nullmailer would be more than enough for most of the uses of a basic install). I am convinced that users should know exactly what they need before they find it already installed in their system. As a matter of fact, 99.9% of the users do not need an MTA more powerful than nullmailer, and maybe almost 90% of typical users do not ever need to edit a file. Those who need something else should already be able to apt-get install whatever. If they are not, then they should do a little reading first. Having vim or an MTA already installed does not automagically give you the sufficient knowledge to use them, BTW. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:03:21 +0200 Peter Maloney wrote: > just run "vimtutor" and do what it says... it's only difficult if you > don't know the buttons. I will come down on the other side of the argument: As a Debian noob (after years of using Slack, Mandrake-Mandriva-Mageia) I was completely lost the first time I was thrown at boot-time into the recovery console, and there was no vi available... Cheers, Ron. -- If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Franco Lanza writes: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix I completely agree with Franco. On every unix the default editor is vi, so it must be in devuan, if somebody doesn't like it, he can use apt-get to install his favorite editor. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
