Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-13 Thread aitor_czr 


On 13/01/18 22:59, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org):


plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D

I look forward to quoting Don Giovanni's servant Leporello about Devuan
adoptions:

   In Italia seicento e quaranta;
   In Alemagna, duecento e trentuna;
   Cento in Francia, in Turchia novantuna;
   Ma in Ispagna son già mille e tre.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd56A8HH0HE


Well, it's a start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgC3GGxF1E0
(It's the second verse, carefully ripped out of context by yr. humble
servant.)



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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-13 Thread Rick Moen 
Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org):

> plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D

I look forward to quoting Don Giovanni's servant Leporello about Devuan 
adoptions:

  In Italia seicento e quaranta;
  In Alemagna, duecento e trentuna;
  Cento in Francia, in Turchia novantuna;
  Ma in Ispagna son già mille e tre.

Well, it's a start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgC3GGxF1E0
(It's the second verse, carefully ripped out of context by yr. humble
servant.)

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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-13 Thread aitor_czr 

Hi William,

On 13/01/18 01:18, William C Vaughan wrote:

Lurker here.


[cut]


Following this stuff for a couple of years, playing with Dejuan


The right term is DevJuan :)

and its downstream variants with some success, some failures, but 
always interesting. I’m very empathetic to Steve Litt’s feelings on 
the systemd stuff, and am particularly inspired to reply to the latest 
missive on the possibility that Red Hat’s darling Mr. Poettering is 
primarily motivated to make Red Hat Enterprise lots of money in 
offering paid support of systemd Linux operations. As per politics, 
religion, educational prerogatives, and historical perspectives as 
officially endorsed, in the case of Linux and systemd, FOLLOW THE 
MONEY TRAIL. That nearly always works in tracing the sources of derision.


[cut]



From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now dilletante, 
you Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success.


Again, the right term is DevJuan (in spanish)

See the forest over the trees, get your message out as an upstream 
solution to Linux in the enterprise - from servers to employee 
desktop/laptop solutions, there is no reason that systemd-free Linux 
alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat, etc., cabal. They have MONEY, 
and that buys them exposure. My former employer, a major university, 
has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and sinker. You guys aren’t 
even on the radar.  I only am aware of your position and offerings as 
an old fart hobbyist with time to explore. I wish you well. How can 
you compete with the power that is money that propagates Red Hat, 
Canonical, et al? That’s your main dilima right now, perhaps on the 
threshold of eclipsing your system development tasks.


Cheers.
--
Move from rim to hub; know the wheel. - 


Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-13 Thread Jaromil 

hi William,

thanks for your message :) its encouraging to read you.

plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, William C Vaughan wrote:

>From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now
>dilletante, you Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. See
>the forest over the trees, get your message out as an upstream
>solution to Linux in the enterprise - from servers to employee
>desktop/laptop solutions, there is no reason that systemd-free
>Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat, etc., cabal. They
>have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former employer, a
>major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and
>sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar.

I very much agree with you, we have an opportunity and we should seize
it "soonish". In most EU and US based organisations I believe
enterprise-level ICT contracts will expire around 2019 and 2020 and
will need to be renovated or may be changed. If we are consolidated by
then, have a reasonable amount of money to reinvest in Devuan for
entreprise level services (a 10% of the donations going to Debian
would be enough to get started) and perhaps have our own
certification... we can play the game at the table with these giants
and be a palatable investment for people with old money who understand
how fast tables can flip in ICT.

There are also more sources of investment that can help us stand on
our feet: sponsorships as well institutional projects that Dyne.org is
doing and that are based on Devuan (see i.e. DECODEproject.eu)

However *now* we must concentrate on quality and details, because our
(still limited, as you say) audience doesn't cares about marketing
speech, but about details and perfectionism. That's what we are doing
and that's also what puts us an inch above all those saying you can
use Debian without systemd and then "take care of the small details".

After ASCII we need all to get out there and talk about Devuan to the
people who can help it grow and likely also make a gain in doing so. I
am confident this will work, we actually had already an amazing
coverage all considered.  Here in Amsterdam we are creating this year
a limited responsibility company that may be able to provide some
degree of entreprise level service to customers and some of its shares
will be available to new aligned investors.

We'll see. And certifications, again, I think they are quite important
and there is nothing holding us from making a no-nonsense
certification course in ... good'ol UNIX minimalism :^)

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-12 Thread KatolaZ 
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 04:26:17AM +0100, arne wrote:

[cut]

> > Devuan is not Linux, and RedHat is not Sun Microsystems, but we'll see
> > how it goes. According to some professionals and experts in the field,
> > Devuan should not even exist. Nevertheless, a lot of users are having
> > a lot of fun with Devuan, and a lot of professionals are building
> > their businesses on Devuan. This is something that nobody would have
> > bet a dime on some three years ago.
> > 
> > Money is not everything, after all. There is indeed not enough money
> > around to buy commitment, passion, and freedom ;)
> > 
> > HND
> > 
> > KatolaZ
> > 
> 
> Makes me thinking again about the switch.
> I have my backups,  so I could always go back to debian:)

I don't see how what I said could make you considering getting back to
Debian, TBH :) It's very good to have backup plans, but choosing
Devuan is about going *forward*, not backward. YMMV though.

My personal distro backup plan (i.e., what I would do if Devuan would
not work fine for me at any given point in the future) consists in
putting some more effort in making Devuan work better. And then a bit
more effort, if needed. And then a bit more, if that was not
enough. And then a bit more, if required. And then a bit more. And so
on :)

Nothing can stop a determined community from setting itself free.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-12 Thread arne 
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 00:43:15 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> Sun Microsystems had a huge lot of money back in the late 90s. They
> desperately wanted total domination over the entry and mid-level
> server segment. They also had a lot of exposure and a respected
> legacy. They were perfectly placed in that market. Nevertheless, they
> lost badly (hook, line, and sinker) to GNU/Linux, an unknown operating
> system developed by hundreds of hobbists, that was not on the radar of
> any serious player at that time, and didn't want to be there at all.
> 
> Devuan is not Linux, and RedHat is not Sun Microsystems, but we'll see
> how it goes. According to some professionals and experts in the field,
> Devuan should not even exist. Nevertheless, a lot of users are having
> a lot of fun with Devuan, and a lot of professionals are building
> their businesses on Devuan. This is something that nobody would have
> bet a dime on some three years ago.
> 
> Money is not everything, after all. There is indeed not enough money
> around to buy commitment, passion, and freedom ;)
> 
> HND
> 
> KatolaZ
> 

Makes me thinking again about the switch.
I have my backups,  so I could always go back to debian:)
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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-12 Thread KatolaZ 
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 12:18:00AM +, William C Vaughan wrote:

[cut]

> 
> From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now dilletante, you
> Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. See the forest over the
> trees, get your message out as an upstream solution to Linux in the
> enterprise - from servers to employee desktop/laptop solutions, there is no
> reason that systemd-free Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat,
> etc., cabal. They have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former
> employer, a major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and
> sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar.  I only am aware of your
> position and offerings as an old fart hobbyist with time to explore. I wish
> you well. How can you compete with the power that is money that propagates
> Red Hat, Canonical, et al? That’s your main dilima right now, perhaps on
> the threshold of eclipsing your system development tasks.
> 

Sun Microsystems had a huge lot of money back in the late 90s. They
desperately wanted total domination over the entry and mid-level
server segment. They also had a lot of exposure and a respected
legacy. They were perfectly placed in that market. Nevertheless, they
lost badly (hook, line, and sinker) to GNU/Linux, an unknown operating
system developed by hundreds of hobbists, that was not on the radar of
any serious player at that time, and didn't want to be there at all.

Devuan is not Linux, and RedHat is not Sun Microsystems, but we'll see
how it goes. According to some professionals and experts in the field,
Devuan should not even exist. Nevertheless, a lot of users are having
a lot of fun with Devuan, and a lot of professionals are building
their businesses on Devuan. This is something that nobody would have
bet a dime on some three years ago.

Money is not everything, after all. There is indeed not enough money
around to buy commitment, passion, and freedom ;)

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-12 Thread William C Vaughan 
Devuan, Dejuan it.

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 6:17 PM William C Vaughan 
wrote:

> Lurker here. Following this stuff for a couple of years, playing with
> Dejuan and its downstream variants with some success, some failures, but
> always interesting. I’m very empathetic to Steve Litt’s feelings on the
> systemd stuff, and am particularly inspired to reply to the latest missive
> on the possibility that Red Hat’s darling Mr. Poettering is primarily
> motivated to make Red Hat Enterprise lots of money in offering paid support
> of systemd Linux operations. As per politics, religion, educational
> prerogatives, and historical perspectives as officially endorsed, in the
> case of Linux and systemd, FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL. That nearly always works
> in tracing the sources of derision.
>
> From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now dilletante, you
> Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. See the forest over the
> trees, get your message out as an upstream solution to Linux in the
> enterprise - from servers to employee desktop/laptop solutions, there is no
> reason that systemd-free Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat,
> etc., cabal. They have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former
> employer, a major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and
> sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar.  I only am aware of your
> position and offerings as an old fart hobbyist with time to explore. I wish
> you well. How can you compete with the power that is money that propagates
> Red Hat, Canonical, et al? That’s your main dilima right now, perhaps on
> the threshold of eclipsing your system development tasks.
>
> Cheers.
> --
> Move from rim to hub; know the wheel. - 
>
-- 
Move from rim to hub; know the wheel. - 
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[DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.

2018-01-12 Thread William C Vaughan 
Lurker here. Following this stuff for a couple of years, playing with
Dejuan and its downstream variants with some success, some failures, but
always interesting. I’m very empathetic to Steve Litt’s feelings on the
systemd stuff, and am particularly inspired to reply to the latest missive
on the possibility that Red Hat’s darling Mr. Poettering is primarily
motivated to make Red Hat Enterprise lots of money in offering paid support
of systemd Linux operations. As per politics, religion, educational
prerogatives, and historical perspectives as officially endorsed, in the
case of Linux and systemd, FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL. That nearly always works
in tracing the sources of derision.

>From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now dilletante, you
Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. See the forest over the
trees, get your message out as an upstream solution to Linux in the
enterprise - from servers to employee desktop/laptop solutions, there is no
reason that systemd-free Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat,
etc., cabal. They have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former
employer, a major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and
sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar.  I only am aware of your
position and offerings as an old fart hobbyist with time to explore. I wish
you well. How can you compete with the power that is money that propagates
Red Hat, Canonical, et al? That’s your main dilima right now, perhaps on
the threshold of eclipsing your system development tasks.

Cheers.
-- 
Move from rim to hub; know the wheel. - 
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