Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On 29/11/19 12:29, Denis Roio wrote: Sadly it's not just init scripts: for example how would a case like http://bugs.devuan.org/db/27/276.html be handled? I guess by hand. Do you mean the user's hand, or the distro maintainer's? :D do you know about other show-stoppers for the systemd unit conversion plan? Well I'm not an expert but it looks like there are already projects that have started to tie themselves to systemd's specific services, so at least _for those projects_ converting units would not be enough BTW, with this mail you just helped me fix this annoying bug on my beowulf day to day install :^) did not knew the fix Glad to hear it :) I've stumbled on it myself just a few days ago, when installing Beowulf on my new laptop ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Joril via Dng wrote: > On 26/11/19 22:13, viverna wrote: > > > > I wrote this summer in this list about a possibility of inject init > > > > run scripts (for example runit) in all Devuan packages automatically. > > > > > > This is a great idea. I've been in favor of something similar since > > > 2015. It frees "upstreams" from the responsibility of maintaining init > > > script/configurations for init systems they don't care about or perhaps > > > despise. Daemon start files are written by experts on the init system. > > Sadly it's not just init scripts: for example how would a case like > http://bugs.devuan.org/db/27/276.html > be handled? I guess by hand. do you know about other show-stoppers for the systemd unit conversion plan? BTW, with this mail you just helped me fix this annoying bug on my beowulf day to day install :^) did not knew the fix thanks, ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
il devuanizzato Joril via Dng il 27-11-19 09:01:37 ha
scritto:
On 26/11/19 22:13, viverna wrote:
I wrote this summer in this list about a possibility of inject init
run scripts (for example runit) in all Devuan packages automatically.
This is a great idea. I've been in favor of something similar since
2015. It frees "upstreams" from the responsibility of maintaining init
script/configurations for init systems they don't care about or perhaps
despise. Daemon start files are written by experts on the init system.
Sadly it's not just init scripts: for example how would a case like
http://bugs.devuan.org/db/27/276.html
be handled?
I do not know. Maybe using a workaround with sed and friends and
inject rules in postinst? Easy to say hard to get...
--
_
< Viverna >
-
\^/^
\ / \ // \
\ |\___/| / \// .\
\ /0 0 \__ /// | \ \ **
/ / \/_/// | \ \ \ |
@_^_@`/ \/_ //| \ \ \/\ \
//_^_/ \/_ // |\\ \ \
( //) |\/// | \ \ | |
( / /) | // | \ _\ | /
( // /) | ; -.|_ _\.-~ / /
(( / / )) |_ *-.|.-~-. .~~
(( // / ))\ / ~-. _ .-~ /
(( /// )) `. }{ /
(( / )) .~-.\\-` .~
///...<\ _ -~
///-._ _ _ _ _ _ _{^ - - - - ~
___
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Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On 26/11/19 22:13, viverna wrote: I wrote this summer in this list about a possibility of inject init run scripts (for example runit) in all Devuan packages automatically. This is a great idea. I've been in favor of something similar since 2015. It frees "upstreams" from the responsibility of maintaining init script/configurations for init systems they don't care about or perhaps despise. Daemon start files are written by experts on the init system. Sadly it's not just init scripts: for example how would a case like http://bugs.devuan.org/db/27/276.html be handled? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
il devuanizzato Steve Litt il 25-11-19 02:48:08 ha
scritto:
I wrote this summer in this list about a possibility of inject init
run scripts (for example runit) in all Devuan packages automatically.
This is a great idea. I've been in favor of something similar since
2015. It frees "upstreams" from the responsibility of maintaining init
script/configurations for init systems they don't care about or perhaps
despise. Daemon start files are written by experts on the init system.
Thanks.
Script I wrote support epoch and runit. Other init can be supported
if implemented.
Thank you so much for remembering Epoch! It's excellent and fast.
Yes I thank you because I did not know Epoch until I read this:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm
Although Epoch was last maintained in 2016, it was the fastest and
easiest init to configure, and my experience was that it was in the
same ballpark, boot time wise, as systemd and runit.
I confirm all!
--
_
< Viverna >
-
\^/^
\ / \ // \
\ |\___/| / \// .\
\ /0 0 \__ /// | \ \ **
/ / \/_/// | \ \ \ |
@_^_@`/ \/_ //| \ \ \/\ \
//_^_/ \/_ // |\\ \ \
( //) |\/// | \ \ | |
( / /) | // | \ _\ | /
( // /) | ; -.|_ _\.-~ / /
(( / / )) |_ *-.|.-~-. .~~
(( // / ))\ / ~-. _ .-~ /
(( /// )) `. }{ /
(( / )) .~-.\\-` .~
///...<\ _ -~
///-._ _ _ _ _ _ _{^ - - - - ~
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
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Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi Rick, On 26/11/19 3:22 pm, Rick Moen wrote: > and just let the two or three users of that mode curse me > as long as they feel is therapeutic. Love it! Great way to deal with it. On 26/11/19 8:33 pm, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..anotherway is point them to 'info formail' and make them pick one > of: EXAMPLES To split up a digest one usually uses: formail +1 -ds > >>the_mailbox_of_your_choice or formail +1 -ds procmail > And for the formail, guess that's best for on the server like .forward files are. Not at the TB (thunderbird) client end. Might need mb2md as well although TB can do maildir format for client storage these days, I wanted that a long time ago, but am not using it and don't expect to now. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXd1B4AAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +xojAP4+4xSZdwEhViz6lQUiUl6G1li4Ecnn/8Erg2OvEQ2O8QEA3GZURj7sGam+ cCbqsybPku8MmuW5K4zVLuCk81VWcJw= =U7Me -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:22:04 -0800, Rick wrote in message <20191126042203.gf6...@linuxmafia.com>: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > I know digest mode is handy, but please be careful in your handling > > thereof. I have no idea who dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org is, but *I* > > wrote the preceding, and my email is sl...@troubleshooters.com. > > Also, please take the extra second to copy the correct subject line > > to your response. > > This happens _all the time_ with digest mode, and (intending no > offence to Alexander) in my experience you cannot get its users to > manually fix attributions or Subject headers. > > Digest mode also completely bollixes threading in the archives (see: > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/dng.en.html) _and_ elsewhere. For > this reason, I've given serious consideration to just > blanket-disabling digest mode on every Mailman installation I > administer, and just let the two or three users of that mode curse me > as long as they feel is therapeutic. ..anotherway is point them to 'info formail' and make them pick one of: EXAMPLES To split up a digest one usually uses: formail +1 -ds >>the_mailbox_of_your_choice or formail +1 -ds procmail -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > I know digest mode is handy, but please be careful in your handling > thereof. I have no idea who dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org is, but *I* > wrote the preceding, and my email is sl...@troubleshooters.com. Also, > please take the extra second to copy the correct subject line to your > response. This happens _all the time_ with digest mode, and (intending no offence to Alexander) in my experience you cannot get its users to manually fix attributions or Subject headers. Digest mode also completely bollixes threading in the archives (see: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/dng.en.html) _and_ elsewhere. For this reason, I've given serious consideration to just blanket-disabling digest mode on every Mailman installation I administer, and just let the two or three users of that mode curse me as long as they feel is therapeutic. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Monday, 25 de November de 2019 01:23:58 Steve Litt escribió: > On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100 > > Denis Roio wrote: > > At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution > > which will survive any outcome of this vote. > > > > Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. > > Some time in 2015, I remember hearing the VUAs saying that Devuan would > be a modification of Debian for some time, but would eventually become > an independent distro of its own, to prevent a crisis like this one. > How far is Devuan from being its own distro? [...] > SteveT It has been a long, long time since the "campfire" that started all this. I've been silent since then. Debian is to be respected forever, as Dungeons and Dragons is to be respected forever as the first roleplaying game. However, I do not play D I do not master D I do not like D at all, and I make tongue in cheek jokes about D not being a roleplaying game at all with my mates. Why? It just lay behind. Debian is about to choose if they will lie behind too. We DO have the experience and the manpower to keep init scripts and an init infrastructure, and step ahead. It will be harder than until today. Do we have the will? Noel, er Envite. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:34:19 -0600 goli...@devuan.org wrote: > On 2019-11-24 19:23, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100 > > Denis Roio wrote: > > > >> At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution > >> which will survive any outcome of this vote. > >> > >> Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. > > > > Some time in 2015, I remember hearing the VUAs saying that Devuan > > would be a modification of Debian for some time, but would > > eventually become an independent distro of its own, to prevent a > > crisis like this one. How far is Devuan from being its own distro? > > > >> Devuan is much, much smaller than Debian in resources, people and > >> infrastructure, > > > > Take a look at how the Void Linux project does things. They have > > some kind of software machine that cranks out rolling release > > updates, despite the fact that they have very few developers or > > maintainers. I'm pretty sure Devuan could provide similar > > automation for a version based release. > > > >> and despite our efforts were useful to both, the > >> Debian project has done very little to help us so far. > > > > I expected this. From my viewpoint, and others' may vary, the > > events of 2014 showed Debian's constitution to be defective, their > > decision processes to be kangaroo courts, and for whatever reason > > they seem indebted to the Redhat/FreeDesktop axis. Long run, they > > probably can't be a long term partner or resource. > > > > [snip] > > > >> If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass, > >> Devuan will die. > > > > From my reading of https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 , it > > seems to me that Proposal E is best, D is second best, with A 3rd > > best: Each of them at least as good as what we have now. Proposal C > > should trigger a separation from Debian, of course, and proposal B > > is worrying. > > > > Three of the five are no worse than we have now, and one of them (E) > > represents a reversal of systemd's encroachment. > > > > I wrote to Ian Jackson earlier today describing my views on the > > subject. I'm not a Debian user nor dev nor maintainer, so I think > > that's the best I can do. Perhaps everybody should *nicely* write > > Ian: Remember, he's our friend, and if he'd succeeded in the 2014 > > GR, there would have been no need for Devuan. > > > > SteveT > > > > Note that there is now a 5th option: > > Proposal E Proposer > > Dmitry Bogatov [kact...@debian.org] [text of latest proposal] > Proposal E Seconds > > Ian Jackson [i...@debian.org] [mail] > Matthew Vernon [matt...@debian.org] [mail] > Jonathan Carter [j...@debian.org] [mail] > Kyle Robbertze [paddatrap...@debian.org] [mail] > Axel Beckert [a...@debian.org] [mail] > Brian Gupta [bgu...@debian.org] [mail] > Simon Richter [s...@debian.org] [mail] > > Proposal E > Choice 5: Init diversity is Required > > Being able to run Debian systems with init systems other than systemd > continues to be of value to the project. Every package MUST work with > pid1 != systemd, unless it was designed by upstream to work > exclusively with systemd and no support for running without systemd > is available. > > Software is not to be considered to be designed by upstream to work > exclusively with systemd merely because upstream does not provide, > and/or will not accept, an init script. > > golinux Yes! That's the one that rolls back the systemd encroachment, and I'm cheering for that one. SteveT Steve Litt November 2019 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 18:31:25 +0100 viverna wrote: > No, we will not allow it! > I propose this: a script called INJ - Init Freedom inJector > > I wrote this summer in this list about a possibility of inject init > run scripts (for example runit) in all Devuan packages automatically. This is a great idea. I've been in favor of something similar since 2015. It frees "upstreams" from the responsibility of maintaining init script/configurations for init systems they don't care about or perhaps despise. Daemon start files are written by experts on the init system. > I'm writing a simple script that inject init diversity in a single > package. > Workflow I imagined it like this: > - Init script experts write run scripts for all daemon based on rules > specified below (also sysvinit) > - Script read a package one by one: > - Open package in tmp dir > - For all init system included in Devuan: > - If exists run script for package > - Insert run script > - Edit if requested postinst and prerm script > - Create package from tmp dir > - New package created (automatically) > > Run script resides in /var/local/INITSYSTEM/ and are copied in the > package. Nice! > > Script I wrote support epoch and runit. Other init can be supported > if implemented. Thank you so much for remembering Epoch! It's excellent and fast. Although Epoch was last maintained in 2016, it was the fastest and easiest init to configure, and my experience was that it was in the same ballpark, boot time wise, as systemd and runit. Thank you for doing runit! Runit is probably the simplest init system around, which is important for some people. Also, runit is similar enough to s6 that runit scripts could probably be converted to s6 scripts by a simple AWK program. One more thing: Systemd sucks, but their unit files are pretty good specifications for any daemon start file: * Run as what user? * Run as what group? * Expect the daemon to background itself? * What services must be online for this daemon to function? * What is the exact syntax for the daemon to run properly? * What must happen before the daemon is run? * What must happen after the daemon finishes? I think we could get 90% of the way to a set of legitimate daemon start scripts by running each unit file through a program to produce a daemon start file for a different init system. > For example /var/local/runit/openssh-server/sshd/run > #!/bin/sh > exec 2>&1 > sv start rsyslogd || exit 1 > mkdir -p /run/sshd > exec /usr/sbin/sshd -D Nice! I've been testing for functioning dependencies, and just quitting if not functioning, on the theory that eventually the dependency would be started. Your method is much more proactive. SteveT Steve Litt November 2019 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On 2019-11-24 19:23, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100 Denis Roio wrote: At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution which will survive any outcome of this vote. Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. Some time in 2015, I remember hearing the VUAs saying that Devuan would be a modification of Debian for some time, but would eventually become an independent distro of its own, to prevent a crisis like this one. How far is Devuan from being its own distro? Devuan is much, much smaller than Debian in resources, people and infrastructure, Take a look at how the Void Linux project does things. They have some kind of software machine that cranks out rolling release updates, despite the fact that they have very few developers or maintainers. I'm pretty sure Devuan could provide similar automation for a version based release. and despite our efforts were useful to both, the Debian project has done very little to help us so far. I expected this. From my viewpoint, and others' may vary, the events of 2014 showed Debian's constitution to be defective, their decision processes to be kangaroo courts, and for whatever reason they seem indebted to the Redhat/FreeDesktop axis. Long run, they probably can't be a long term partner or resource. [snip] If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass, Devuan will die. From my reading of https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 , it seems to me that Proposal E is best, D is second best, with A 3rd best: Each of them at least as good as what we have now. Proposal C should trigger a separation from Debian, of course, and proposal B is worrying. Three of the five are no worse than we have now, and one of them (E) represents a reversal of systemd's encroachment. I wrote to Ian Jackson earlier today describing my views on the subject. I'm not a Debian user nor dev nor maintainer, so I think that's the best I can do. Perhaps everybody should *nicely* write Ian: Remember, he's our friend, and if he'd succeeded in the 2014 GR, there would have been no need for Devuan. SteveT Note that there is now a 5th option: Proposal E Proposer Dmitry Bogatov [kact...@debian.org] [text of latest proposal] Proposal E Seconds Ian Jackson [i...@debian.org] [mail] Matthew Vernon [matt...@debian.org] [mail] Jonathan Carter [j...@debian.org] [mail] Kyle Robbertze [paddatrap...@debian.org] [mail] Axel Beckert [a...@debian.org] [mail] Brian Gupta [bgu...@debian.org] [mail] Simon Richter [s...@debian.org] [mail] Proposal E Choice 5: Init diversity is Required Being able to run Debian systems with init systems other than systemd continues to be of value to the project. Every package MUST work with pid1 != systemd, unless it was designed by upstream to work exclusively with systemd and no support for running without systemd is available. Software is not to be considered to be designed by upstream to work exclusively with systemd merely because upstream does not provide, and/or will not accept, an init script. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100 Denis Roio wrote: > At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution > which will survive any outcome of this vote. > > Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. Some time in 2015, I remember hearing the VUAs saying that Devuan would be a modification of Debian for some time, but would eventually become an independent distro of its own, to prevent a crisis like this one. How far is Devuan from being its own distro? > Devuan is much, much smaller than Debian in resources, people and > infrastructure, Take a look at how the Void Linux project does things. They have some kind of software machine that cranks out rolling release updates, despite the fact that they have very few developers or maintainers. I'm pretty sure Devuan could provide similar automation for a version based release. > and despite our efforts were useful to both, the > Debian project has done very little to help us so far. I expected this. From my viewpoint, and others' may vary, the events of 2014 showed Debian's constitution to be defective, their decision processes to be kangaroo courts, and for whatever reason they seem indebted to the Redhat/FreeDesktop axis. Long run, they probably can't be a long term partner or resource. [snip] > If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass, > Devuan will die. From my reading of https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 , it seems to me that Proposal E is best, D is second best, with A 3rd best: Each of them at least as good as what we have now. Proposal C should trigger a separation from Debian, of course, and proposal B is worrying. Three of the five are no worse than we have now, and one of them (E) represents a reversal of systemd's encroachment. I wrote to Ian Jackson earlier today describing my views on the subject. I'm not a Debian user nor dev nor maintainer, so I think that's the best I can do. Perhaps everybody should *nicely* write Ian: Remember, he's our friend, and if he'd succeeded in the 2014 GR, there would have been no need for Devuan. SteveT Steve Litt November 2019 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On 2019-11-24 06:16, Denis Roio wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: I have tried ASCII 2.0 -- but it looks like there is a new 2.1 version just about to be announced? yes, there is a 2.1 ready and most of it is thanks to the passionate work of volunteers, among the few fsmithred, rrq, golinux, centuriondan and evilham. I believe there wouldn't be this point release without them. One major omission . . . a shout out to LeePen who is doing a lion's share of the work setting up the new buildhost(s) on devuan infrastructure over which Devuan devs will have control. Once completed, Beowulf can move forward. Here are his notes from the last meet. LeePen has also been active promoting init diversity within Debian: ### LeePen New Devuan infra status: jenkins - Running on jenkins.devuan.dev. - Has existing buildhosts plus 4 new (i386, amd64, arm64 and armhf; armel is wip) - Issues with importing existing users. Can people with ci.devuan.org logins please try them on jenkins.devuan.dev and report back? # still to do: - import current jobs from ci.devuan.org (if this is possible?) - #devuan-ci output: same channel new nickname or new channel? - get releasebot to send it some jobs for testing. - backups? dak - installed on devuan ganeti host. - existing package archive imported. # still to do: - resolve issues with built-using dependencies (only affects debian-installer). - lots of cruft to clean out. - cron jobs. - send jenkins jobs output to new dak (I think this is releasebot again). In parallel with production dak for testing? - get amprolla(s) to use new dak. - consider merge of current debian git HEAD. - backups? We are not doing what we do just to pick up our marbles and go home. ;) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Andrew McGlashan via Dng wrote: > I have tried ASCII 2.0 -- but it looks like there is a new 2.1 > version just about to be announced? yes, there is a 2.1 ready and most of it is thanks to the passionate work of volunteers, among the few fsmithred, rrq, golinux, centuriondan and evilham. I believe there wouldn't be this point release without them. Only the VM and ARM images are lagging behind, which is mostly my fault. The place of reference is always files.devuan.org and the release notes are updated https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt Devuan's history can be easily traced connecting people and versions, which also shows how much of the sustainability of our project is bound to individual initiative and vision. Devuan is not resilient. If Debian stops providing the forest around our cultivated patch, our plants will die. the VUA will announce the 2.1 point release tomorrow, on Monday. I believe all of us are motivated to continue in our best capacity to support Devuan, but I really do not want to see any of the great people involved burn out because of an incommensurable challenge. what we can also try is to scale Devuan's effort with an enterprise approach, but then we need clear commitment from at least one strong and reliable industrial partner. all this of course IMHO, I'm not speaking for Devuan, but sharing with you my personal opinions on this project ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 24/11/19 1:21 am, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..apologies, I just hit the Reply-button and saw you on the > Cc:-line, and was led to believe that was your intention. > Responding to this message, I found I had to hit the > ReplyAll-button to get you there, probably because you put both me > and DNG in the To: lines. Again, no list message. This time I changed after reply-all to have you as CC and the list as TO. >> I have tried ASCII 2.0 -- but it looks like there is a new 2.1 >> version just about to be announced? > > ..tried upgrading to 2.1? AFAIK that should happen automagically > if you run e.g. aptitude update etc at least weekly. The NUC has Debian on the internal NVME drives but it doesn't work properly. I am running MX 18.3 on an external drive, it works fine. This new machine has never ran Devuan properly; I do get a cli, but no desktop GUI (XFCE) ... it just won't start, probably to do with the graphics included in this box (Vega AMD / Intel special setup). >> Graphics: Device-1: Intel driver: i915 v: kernel > > ..you have this Intel card working ok? Not tried specifically. >> Device-2: AMD driver: amdgpu v: kernel There might be a BIOS setting for this, but I really expect the "better" AMD setup to work... it's one of the reasons I chose this particular option over the plain Intel one. >> Display: server: X.Org 1.19.2 driver: amdgpu,ati,modesetting >> unloaded: fbdev,radeon, > > ..are these drivers fighting each other??? I see amdgpu but no > radeonsi, do you have 3D accelleration? I did nothing special here, just tried a simple desktop live ISO of ASCII 2.0 and now 2.1 -- no different. The INXI output was created using the fully working MX 18.3 setup, not Devuan. > ..ah, Too New Toy: the Radeon RX Vega M GH on the i7-8809G Yep, that's it. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaby_Lake#List_of_8th_generation_Kaby_La ke_G_processors > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_RX_Vega_series > https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/130409/intel-core - -i7-8809g-processor-with-radeon-rx-vega-m-gh-graphics-8m-cache-up-to-4-2 0-ghz.html > > https://www.pcworld.com/article/3267074/intel-hades-canyon-nuc-nuc8i7hvk - -review.html > https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-amdgpu/ > > ..hang in there, or send it my way. ;o) LOL > ..this HW below works ok? Yes, but I do have audio problems, which are temporarily fixed by doing: pulseaudio -k But otherwise it is okay. There are a combination of things that might be screwing with sound: 1. Facebook. 2. Palemoon (older version was worse) 3. Waterfox Classic (56.3 base of Firefox) 4. xfreerdp If I stay away from FB and don't expect any browser to play sound and don't use xfreerdp, then vlc is happy playing sound without giving problems for extended periods of time. If I use any of the above 4 options, particularly FB, then sound can screw-up pretty quickly. Even tried FB in TBB, that helps a little, TNN is FF ESR 68+ based. I'm thinking that older Firefox and related browsers is part of the sound problem; using the latest Firefox and probably the the "modern" version of Waterfox might be okay too. Never had ANY sound issues whatsoever with any other device (was mostly using an older Macbook Pro, it's sound was good with Devuan, as was everything else). Anyway, the main problem is that Devuan isn't happy on the new toy; hopefully Beowulf or other updates will fix these problems and I can stop using MX. >> Installing with ASCII 2.0 wouldn't boot properly to the XFCE >> desktop and I wasn't interested in changing kernels > > ..you may have to, your box AMD graphics was too new for ASCII 2.0 > as released last year, the driver guys at *.freedesktop.org used to > need half a year and guinea hardware to write drivers, nowadays, I > dunno. Yeah, sadly ASCII 2.1 has the same problems, stuck with MX for now. >> or doing anything else to make it work out of the box, including >> trying to work out why XFCE was a problem with Devuan ASCII. >> >> >> Maybe I should try ASCII 2.1 -- but I was expecting Beowulf to be >> here "any time soon" ... for a lon while now. > > ..mmm. :o) :( Pity it didn't help... but I did try. Again, perhaps when Beowulf is ready, the drivers /might/ be sorted too. >> The MX installer doesn't support installation installation on >> RAID1 mdadm devices! I prefer to use RAID1 for everything, then >> LUKS on all but the /boot partition with LVM2 -- that sort of >> setup isn't possible with the MX installer. > > ..you've seen http://wiki.tldp.org/LVM-on-RAID or > http://jasonwryan.com/blog/2012/02/11/lvm/ or > http://www.iverbi.de/slackware/RAID1_LVM_LUKS_Slackware12_2_Howto.html > ? I've done this setup many times, all on servers that never needed any GUI desktop. The servers are all fine. I'll live with MX installer issues, hoping this is only temporary; I do need a working setup, so thank goodness for MX to give me that
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:48:52 +1100, Andrew wrote in message <5cc11ae1-94d0-5327-81b7-6a6f98840...@affinityvision.com.au>: > Hi, > > On 23/11/19 4:38 am, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 03:17:58 +1100, Andrew wrote in message > > : > > > >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > >> Hash: SHA256 > >> > >> Jo. > >> > >> On 23/11/19 12:26 am, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: > >>> In the worst case we would not be able to rely on MX Linux? > >> > >> I think not. > >> > >> MX is not exactly against systemd, they use it still, but not as > >> the init system. And MX is reliant upon Debian anyway so sad > >> that Debian is being destroyed by systemd. I don't know what the > >> answer is, but it would have been best if the original TC chose > >> against systemd, but that ship has sailed and the damage is well > >> and truly done and it's only getting worse. > >> > >> I prefer Devuan over MX, but at this time I am using MX on a > >> machine as an interim until my machine is properly supported by > >> Devuan (if that ever happens properly). > > > > ..what's missing? > > Okay, first off, I didn't see your email in the list yet, but it is > addressed to the list; so I'll reply with list inclusion... ..apologies, I just hit the Reply-button and saw you on the Cc:-line, and was led to believe that was your intention. Responding to this message, I found I had to hit the ReplyAll-button to get you there, probably because you put both me and DNG in the To: lines. > I have tried ASCII 2.0 -- but it looks like there is a new 2.1 version > just about to be announced? ..tried upgrading to 2.1? AFAIK that should happen automagically if you run e.g. aptitude update etc at least weekly. ..and dist-upgrading to Ceres on _one_ of your raid-1 disks, _may_ work, if Debian Sid hasn't fallen too far behind the other distros. ..you wanna keep your other raid disks offline while you mess around with your guinea pig disk. ..if that fails, try some "bleeding edge" Live USB/DVD/CD distros, some of these has deserved their bragging rights and might even run from ram with Knoppix-style "toram" hints, and might show us how to support your NUC8i7HVK, if all that fails, simply wipe your guinea pig disk clean and "rebuild" your raid-1. > My machine is a NUC8i7HVK with the following hardware details: > > > > # inxi -F -z --no-host -y 80 > System: > Kernel: 4.19.0-5-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: Xfce 4.12.3 > Distro: MX-18.3_x64 Continuum May 26 2019 > Machine: > Type: Desktop System: Intel product: NUC8i7HVK v: J71485-503 > serial: > Mobo: Intel model: NUC8i7HVB v: J68196-503 serial: UEFI: > Intel v: HNKBLi70.86A.0058.2019.0705.1646 date: 07/05/2019 > CPU: > Topology: Quad Core model: Intel Core i7-8809G bits: 64 type: MT MCP > L2 cache: 8192 KiB > Speed: 800 MHz min/max: 800/4200 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 800 2: > 800 3: 800 > 4: 801 5: 801 6: 800 7: 800 8: 800 > Graphics: > Device-1: Intel driver: i915 v: kernel ..you have this Intel card working ok? > Device-2: AMD driver: amdgpu v: kernel > Display: server: X.Org 1.19.2 driver: amdgpu,ati,modesetting > unloaded: fbdev,radeon, ..are these drivers fighting each other??? I see amdgpu but no radeonsi, do you have 3D accelleration? > vesa resolution: 3840x2160~60Hz, 2560x1440~60Hz > OpenGL: renderer: AMD VEGAM (DRM 3.27.0 4.19.0-5-amd64 > LLVM 7.0.0) v: 4.5 Mesa 18.2.6 ..ah, Too New Toy: the Radeon RX Vega M GH on the i7-8809G https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaby_Lake#List_of_8th_generation_Kaby_Lake_G_processors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_RX_Vega_series https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/130409/intel-core-i7-8809g-processor-with-radeon-rx-vega-m-gh-graphics-8m-cache-up-to-4-20-ghz.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/3267074/intel-hades-canyon-nuc-nuc8i7hvk-review.html https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-amdgpu/ ..hang in there, or send it my way. ;o) ..this HW below works ok? > Audio: > Device-1: Intel driver: snd_hda_intel > Device-2: AMD driver: snd_hda_intel > Sound Server: ALSA v: k4.19.0-5-amd64 > Network: > Device-1: Intel Ethernet I219-LM driver: e1000e > IF: eth1 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: > Device-2: Intel I210 Gigabit Network driver: igb > IF: eth0 state: down mac: > Drives: > Local Storage: total: 1.36 TiB used: 74.17 GiB (5.3%) > ID-1: /dev/nvme0n1 vendor: Samsung model: SSD 970 EVO Plus 1TB > size: 931.51 GiB > ID-2: /dev/nvme1n1 vendor: Samsung model: SSD 970 EVO Plus 1TB > size: 931.51 GiB > ID-3: /dev/sda type: USB vendor: Samsung model: Portable SSD T5 > size: 465.76 GiB > Partition: > ID-1: / size: 118.75 GiB used: 74.09 GiB (62.4%) fs: ext4 > dev: /dev/dm-0 ID-2: /boot size: 487.9 MiB used: 85.7 MiB (17.6%) fs: > ext4 dev: /dev/sda2 > Sensors: > System Temperatures: cpu: 49.0 C mobo: N/A gpu: amdgpu temp: 37 C > Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A > Info: > Processes: 254 Uptime: 53m Memory: 31.34
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
Hi, On 23/11/19 4:38 am, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 03:17:58 +1100, Andrew wrote in message > : > >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> Jo. >> >> On 23/11/19 12:26 am, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: >>> In the worst case we would not be able to rely on MX Linux? >> >> I think not. >> >> MX is not exactly against systemd, they use it still, but not as the >> init system. And MX is reliant upon Debian anyway so sad that >> Debian is being destroyed by systemd. I don't know what the answer >> is, but it would have been best if the original TC chose against >> systemd, but that ship has sailed and the damage is well and truly >> done and it's only getting worse. >> >> I prefer Devuan over MX, but at this time I am using MX on a machine >> as an interim until my machine is properly supported by Devuan (if >> that ever happens properly). > > ..what's missing? Okay, first off, I didn't see your email in the list yet, but it is addressed to the list; so I'll reply with list inclusion... I have tried ASCII 2.0 -- but it looks like there is a new 2.1 version just about to be announced? My machine is a NUC8i7HVK with the following hardware details: # inxi -F -z --no-host -y 80 System: Kernel: 4.19.0-5-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: Xfce 4.12.3 Distro: MX-18.3_x64 Continuum May 26 2019 Machine: Type: Desktop System: Intel product: NUC8i7HVK v: J71485-503 serial: Mobo: Intel model: NUC8i7HVB v: J68196-503 serial: UEFI: Intel v: HNKBLi70.86A.0058.2019.0705.1646 date: 07/05/2019 CPU: Topology: Quad Core model: Intel Core i7-8809G bits: 64 type: MT MCP L2 cache: 8192 KiB Speed: 800 MHz min/max: 800/4200 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 800 2: 800 3: 800 4: 801 5: 801 6: 800 7: 800 8: 800 Graphics: Device-1: Intel driver: i915 v: kernel Device-2: AMD driver: amdgpu v: kernel Display: server: X.Org 1.19.2 driver: amdgpu,ati,modesetting unloaded: fbdev,radeon,vesa resolution: 3840x2160~60Hz, 2560x1440~60Hz OpenGL: renderer: AMD VEGAM (DRM 3.27.0 4.19.0-5-amd64 LLVM 7.0.0) v: 4.5 Mesa 18.2.6 Audio: Device-1: Intel driver: snd_hda_intel Device-2: AMD driver: snd_hda_intel Sound Server: ALSA v: k4.19.0-5-amd64 Network: Device-1: Intel Ethernet I219-LM driver: e1000e IF: eth1 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: Device-2: Intel I210 Gigabit Network driver: igb IF: eth0 state: down mac: Drives: Local Storage: total: 1.36 TiB used: 74.17 GiB (5.3%) ID-1: /dev/nvme0n1 vendor: Samsung model: SSD 970 EVO Plus 1TB size: 931.51 GiB ID-2: /dev/nvme1n1 vendor: Samsung model: SSD 970 EVO Plus 1TB size: 931.51 GiB ID-3: /dev/sda type: USB vendor: Samsung model: Portable SSD T5 size: 465.76 GiB Partition: ID-1: / size: 118.75 GiB used: 74.09 GiB (62.4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/dm-0 ID-2: /boot size: 487.9 MiB used: 85.7 MiB (17.6%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2 Sensors: System Temperatures: cpu: 49.0 C mobo: N/A gpu: amdgpu temp: 37 C Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A Info: Processes: 254 Uptime: 53m Memory: 31.34 GiB used: 3.59 GiB (11.5%) Shell: bash inxi: 3.0.36 Installing with ASCII 2.0 wouldn't boot properly to the XFCE desktop and I wasn't interested in changing kernels or doing anything else to make it work out of the box, including trying to work out why XFCE was a problem with Devuan ASCII. Maybe I should try ASCII 2.1 -- but I was expecting Beowulf to be here "any time soon" ... for a lon while now. The MX installer doesn't support installation installation on RAID1 mdadm devices! I prefer to use RAID1 for everything, then LUKS on all but the /boot partition with LVM2 -- that sort of setup isn't possible with the MX installer. But XFCE works perfectly out of the box with MX, so I have something to work with in the meantime. Kind Regards AndrewM ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 03:17:58 +1100, Andrew wrote in message : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > Jo. > > On 23/11/19 12:26 am, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: > > In the worst case we would not be able to rely on MX Linux? > > I think not. > > MX is not exactly against systemd, they use it still, but not as the > init system. And MX is reliant upon Debian anyway so sad that > Debian is being destroyed by systemd. I don't know what the answer > is, but it would have been best if the original TC chose against > systemd, but that ship has sailed and the damage is well and truly > done and it's only getting worse. > > I prefer Devuan over MX, but at this time I am using MX on a machine > as an interim until my machine is properly supported by Devuan (if > that ever happens properly). ..what's missing? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
Is there any way to give our support to this proposal? Only Debian-accepted developers (cf. https://www.debian.org/devel/join/), subsequently called "Debian Developer", or "DD", have a right to vote (cf. https://www.debian.org/vote/howto_follow). I would also be eager to help Debian (& Devuan too as a consequence, from Denis' own words) not being steered in another wall, but I am no DD. Bernard Rosset https://rosset.net/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
il devuanizzato Denis Roio il 22-11-19 10:55:46 ha scritto:
Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian.
If Debian drops the support for any other init system but systemd, I
believe we won't be able to keep up with the legwork needed to support
all other init systems. I say this because we do not have a comparable
amount of people and resources to face the huge amount of work Debian
will cease to do. Of course quality matters, but not that far.
No, we will not allow it!
I propose this: a script called INJ - Init Freedom inJector
I wrote this summer in this list about a possibility of inject init run
scripts (for example runit) in all Devuan packages automatically.
I'm writing a simple script that inject init diversity in a single
package.
Workflow I imagined it like this:
- Init script experts write run scripts for all daemon based on rules
specified below (also sysvinit)
- Script read a package one by one:
- Open package in tmp dir
- For all init system included in Devuan:
- If exists run script for package
- Insert run script
- Edit if requested postinst and prerm script
- Create package from tmp dir
- New package created (automatically)
Run script resides in /var/local/INITSYSTEM/ and are copied in the
package.
Script I wrote support epoch and runit. Other init can be supported if
implemented.
Config file for epoch are in
/var/local/epoch/package_name_all_daemon.conf
For example openssh-server.conf
ObjectID=sshd
ObjectDescription=SSHD
ObjectStartCommand=mkdir -p /run/sshd && /usr/sbin/sshd
ObjectStopCommand=PIDFILE /run/sshd.pid
ObjectStartPriority=Start_Network_Daemon_H
ObjectStopPriority=Stop_Daemon_H
ObjectEnabled=true
ObjectOptions=SERVICE AUTORESTART
ObjectRunlevels=boot core net
Script file for runit are in /var/local/runit/package/
For daemon:
/var/local/runit/package/daemon/run
For example /var/local/runit/openssh-server/sshd/run
#!/bin/sh
exec 2>&1
sv start rsyslogd || exit 1
mkdir -p /run/sshd
exec /usr/sbin/sshd -D
System one time tasks (inject in /etc/runit/{1,2,3}):
/var/local/runit/package/dir/{1,2,3}
If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass,
Devuan will die.
No, inject treatment scripts in all systemd-unit-file only infected
packages automatically.
Hard work is ONLY create script for all init systems supported (more
easy if a small committee of experts write it).
I would like to release the script in the next days with AGPL3 but tell
me.
We are at war. Let's defend ourselves or die fighting.
--
_
< Viverna >
-
\^/^
\ / \ // \
\ |\___/| / \// .\
\ /0 0 \__ /// | \ \ **
/ / \/_/// | \ \ \ |
@_^_@`/ \/_ //| \ \ \/\ \
//_^_/ \/_ // |\\ \ \
( //) |\/// | \ \ | |
( / /) | // | \ _\ | /
( // /) | ; -.|_ _\.-~ / /
(( / / )) |_ *-.|.-~-. .~~
(( // / ))\ / ~-. _ .-~ /
(( /// )) `. }{ /
(( / )) .~-.\\-` .~
///...<\ _ -~
///-._ _ _ _ _ _ _{^ - - - - ~
___
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Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Jo. On 23/11/19 12:26 am, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: > In the worst case we would not be able to rely on MX Linux? I think not. MX is not exactly against systemd, they use it still, but not as the init system. And MX is reliant upon Debian anyway so sad that Debian is being destroyed by systemd. I don't know what the answer is, but it would have been best if the original TC chose against systemd, but that ship has sailed and the damage is well and truly done and it's only getting worse. I prefer Devuan over MX, but at this time I am using MX on a machine as an interim until my machine is properly supported by Devuan (if that ever happens properly). Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXdgKJwAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +7BOAQCgJVQmiK1rW+U/6nwP4x1JWg/QtF8SqonJR1tjcQu2PQEA2N/kmJWcCvpF MBl8KkFW4zDtjTM6E8B5+gKUHofU8qw= =QO7d -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100, Denis wrote in message <20191122095546.fro7htitriq47xsx@reflex>: > Now please let this success be an account of how important is Init > Freedom for the large amount of Debian users out there. > > Today I write you because there is a reason to be worried that many > Debian users will be betrayed once more by its leadership. > > And today once again I support the vote proposition nr.4 by Ian > Jackson and urge the elite who has the privilege to steer the future > of Debian to pay good attention to this choice, considering Ian's > competent and well informed formulation. > > At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution > which will survive any outcome of this vote. > > Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. > > Devuan is much, much smaller than Debian in resources, people and > infrastructure, and despite our efforts were useful to both, the > Debian project has done very little to help us so far. > > If Debian drops the support for any other init system but systemd, I > believe we won't be able to keep up with the legwork needed to support > all other init systems. I say this because we do not have a comparable > amount of people and resources to face the huge amount of work Debian > will cease to do. Of course quality matters, but not that far. > > If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass, > Devuan will die. ..https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/msg00028.html proposes a way forward: "maintain all init-scripts in a single package that gets pulled in with [alternate init systems such as e.g.] sysvinit. Whoever wants to use and maintain it is free to do so. Initscript could actually be installed using dpkg triggers or whatever else works." ..if we do it, both for us _and_ them, we control it. ;o) ..and, we have https://devuan.org/get-devuan etc in place: ;o) "(And at some time we can still move that package into an external repository)." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:29:36 +0100, Irrwahn wrote in message <00acc993-3243-4ccc-aa86-0f5f93aaf...@freenet.de>: > Arnt Karlsen wrote on 22.11.19 13:36: > > On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100, Denis wrote in message > > <20191122095546.fro7htitriq47xsx@reflex>: > [...] > >> And today once again I support the vote proposition nr.4 by Ian > >> Jackson > > > > ..a direct link to Ian's vote proposition nr.4 and a direct link > > on where to vote for that, would be helpful, there are 245 messages > > "in the air" at https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ now. > > All proposals can be found here: > https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 > > Ian Jackson's proposal is listed as "Proposal D". > > HTH, regards > Urban > ..it did, thanks, Urban. :o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:36:48 +0100 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100, Denis wrote in message > <20191122095546.fro7htitriq47xsx@reflex>: > > > > > And today once again I support the vote proposition nr.4 by Ian > > Jackson > > ..a direct link to Ian's vote proposition nr.4 and a direct link > on where to vote for that, would be helpful, there are 245 messages > "in the air" at https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ now. > I think it may be this but happy to be corrected https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/msg00063.html pgpG281ldNwu3.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
Arnt Karlsen wrote on 22.11.19 13:36: > On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100, Denis wrote in message > <20191122095546.fro7htitriq47xsx@reflex>: [...] >> And today once again I support the vote proposition nr.4 by Ian >> Jackson > > ..a direct link to Ian's vote proposition nr.4 and a direct link > on where to vote for that, would be helpful, there are 245 messages > "in the air" at https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ now. All proposals can be found here: https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 Ian Jackson's proposal is listed as "Proposal D". HTH, regards Urban -- Sapere aude! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
In the worst case we would not be able to rely on MX Linux? Best Regards -- Ismael - Original Message - From: "Denis Roio" To: "DNG" Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 4:55 AM Subject: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
Is there any way to give our support to this proposal? Best Regards -- Ismael - Original Message - From: "Arnt Karlsen" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100, Denis wrote in message <20191122095546.fro7htitriq47xsx@reflex>: dear readers, I write this email to comment on the current Init System GR vote in Debian, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ I'll be brief and express my personal opinion on the matter. Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian. When me and Franco Lanza started this project in 2014 it was because of the most painful Init System GR in Debian. Back then, we chose Ian Jackson as the best Debian developer to represent the interest of Debian's users and to defend the true mission of the Debian project as a universal operating system. While supporting Ian's proposal we also promised to the world that, if that wouldn't be the route taken by Debian, we would have not gone gently into that good night. So we did, and Devuan was born. Together with a small group of volunteers we dedicated huge amounts of time and resources to Devuan, putting our skills at the service of a very large community of people in need of Init Freedom; a whole chapter of my doctoral thesis is dedicated to this project https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/handle/10026.1/11101 and overall our history is rather well explained here https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ and our community well represented by the first Devuan conference we organised in Amsterdam https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference/ For many of us Devuan has been a source of pride, joy and professional relief. It brought together some of the best people, developers and system administrators I could ever hope to meet in my life. We also managed to contribute back solutions and software useful to the Debian project. Now please let this success be an account of how important is Init Freedom for the large amount of Debian users out there. Today I write you because there is a reason to be worried that many Debian users will be betrayed once more by its leadership. And today once again I support the vote proposition nr.4 by Ian Jackson ..a direct link to Ian's vote proposition nr.4 and a direct link on where to vote for that, would be helpful, there are 245 messages "in the air" at https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ now. and urge the elite who has the privilege to steer the future of Debian to pay good attention to this choice, considering Ian's competent and well informed formulation. At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution which will survive any outcome of this vote. Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. Devuan is much, much smaller than Debian in resources, people and infrastructure, and despite our efforts were useful to both, the Debian project has done very little to help us so far. If Debian drops the support for any other init system but systemd, I believe we won't be able to keep up with the legwork needed to support all other init systems. I say this because we do not have a comparable amount of people and resources to face the huge amount of work Debian will cease to do. Of course quality matters, but not that far. If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass, Devuan will die. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100, Denis wrote in message <20191122095546.fro7htitriq47xsx@reflex>: > dear readers, > > I write this email to comment on the current Init System GR vote in > Debian, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ > > I'll be brief and express my personal opinion on the matter. > > Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian. > > When me and Franco Lanza started this project in 2014 it was because > of the most painful Init System GR in Debian. Back then, we chose Ian > Jackson as the best Debian developer to represent the interest of > Debian's users and to defend the true mission of the Debian project as > a universal operating system. While supporting Ian's proposal we also > promised to the world that, if that wouldn't be the route taken by > Debian, we would have not gone gently into that good night. > > So we did, and Devuan was born. > > Together with a small group of volunteers we dedicated huge amounts of > time and resources to Devuan, putting our skills at the service of a > very large community of people in need of Init Freedom; a whole > chapter of my doctoral thesis is dedicated to this project > https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/handle/10026.1/11101 and overall our > history is rather well explained here > https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ and our community well represented > by the first Devuan conference we organised in Amsterdam > https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference/ > > For many of us Devuan has been a source of pride, joy and professional > relief. It brought together some of the best people, developers and > system administrators I could ever hope to meet in my life. We also > managed to contribute back solutions and software useful to the Debian > project. > > Now please let this success be an account of how important is Init > Freedom for the large amount of Debian users out there. > > Today I write you because there is a reason to be worried that many > Debian users will be betrayed once more by its leadership. > > And today once again I support the vote proposition nr.4 by Ian > Jackson ..a direct link to Ian's vote proposition nr.4 and a direct link on where to vote for that, would be helpful, there are 245 messages "in the air" at https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/11/ now. > and urge the elite who has the privilege to steer the future > of Debian to pay good attention to this choice, considering Ian's > competent and well informed formulation. > > At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution > which will survive any outcome of this vote. > > Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help. > > Devuan is much, much smaller than Debian in resources, people and > infrastructure, and despite our efforts were useful to both, the > Debian project has done very little to help us so far. > > If Debian drops the support for any other init system but systemd, I > believe we won't be able to keep up with the legwork needed to support > all other init systems. I say this because we do not have a comparable > amount of people and resources to face the huge amount of work Debian > will cease to do. Of course quality matters, but not that far. > > If the resolution nr.4 proposed by Ian Jackson will not pass, > Devuan will die. > > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
