Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi, Hendrik Boom writes: > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 08:02:59PM +1000, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: >> >> >> > On 30 Jul 2021, at 05:15, Steve Litt wrote: >> > >> > Riccardo Mottola said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:07:11 +0200 >> > >> >> Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. >> >> Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. >> > >> > Riccardo, >> > >> > You just reminded me that I always recommend having a known good, >> > doesn't-need-drivers wifi dongle on hand for those times when your >> > laptop's wifi won't work during installation. Some are made for the >> > Raspberry Pi: I'd guess that those would work on pretty much any >> > hardware. >> > >> > SteveT >> >> The FSF publishes a list of Linux-compatible hardware at https://ryf.fsf.org > > Probably only hardware for which the Linux drivers are free. Yes, as in Free Software and certifiedly so ;-) -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi, terryc writes: > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:07:43 +0900 > Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng wrote: > >> Hi g4sra, >> >> g4sra via Dng writes: >> >> > <--snip--> >> > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert >> > additional installation media such as a USB stick. There are just >> > too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner >> > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick >> > and use it when prompted! I do not ever want to have to install an >> > OS from 31 removable media's ever again! (Windows NT >> > anybody?).___ > > I've done that once, but mostly it has been various versions of Novell > which thankfully are not that many as NT was. > >> >> Me waxes nostalgic and remembers installing Debian from 12 >> floppies ;-) -- > > Did it work? Yes, although I may have had to rewrite a bad floppy, or two. And it worked not just on i386, but on m68k as well, IIRC. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
> On 31 Jul 2021, at 04:09, Steve Litt wrote: > > wirelessd...@gmail.com said on Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:02:59 +1000 > >>> On 30 Jul 2021, at 05:15, Steve Litt >>> wrote: >>> >>> Riccardo Mottola said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:07:11 +0200 >>> Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. >>> >>> Riccardo, >>> >>> You just reminded me that I always recommend having a known good, >>> doesn't-need-drivers wifi dongle on hand for those times when your >>> laptop's wifi won't work during installation. Some are made for the >>> Raspberry Pi: I'd guess that those would work on pretty much any >>> hardware. >>> >>> SteveT >> >> The FSF publishes a list of Linux-compatible hardware at >> https://ryf.fsf.org > > Yeah, that ain't gonna fly with most people's budgets. The Talos II > Lite mobo costs $1,788. That's 90% of the whole 6 core, 12 thread, > 64GB, 14TB 7200 with 2TB booter nvme computer with power supply and > case. The all-free 2TB nvme offering is $1,079, rather than the $420 I > paid for my 2TB nvme. > > I've found similar problems with System76 and most of the other Linux > pre-loaded computers. Pure openness is a rich man's sport. > > SteveT Unfortunate, but all too true. And unlikely to change any time soon while most people are ignorant of the problems with non-free software/hardware. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:31:17 +0200 tito via Dng wrote: > ... If I understood it correctly the > problem is about adding the drivers and firmware blobs which are in > the non-free repos to the isos and install images ... Let me repeat it once: the installer isos do contain all packages named *firmware* in their respective pool, and in addition, they have a toplevel directory named /firmware that contains symbolic links to all of them. It has been like that since the ASCII installer isos. ... go on ranting. Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 11:22:56PM +1000, terryc wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:07:43 +0900 > Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng wrote: > > > Hi g4sra, > > > > g4sra via Dng writes: > > > > > <--snip--> > > > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert > > > additional installation media such as a USB stick. There are just > > > too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner > > > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick > > > and use it when prompted! I do not ever want to have to install an > > > OS from 31 removable media's ever again! (Windows NT > > > anybody?).___ > > I've done that once, but mostly it has been various versions of Novell > which thankfully are not that many as NT was. > > > > > Me waxes nostalgic and remembers installing Debian from 12 > > floppies ;-) -- > > Did it work? > > My installation didn't, so I then tried the Slackware floppies which > also didn't work. By the time I switched to Debian (.9x release), the ATA cdroms were working with the kernel without modification. Before that, I would drive to Pullman, WA, where a friend was going to school, with a large pack of 3.5" floppies and a blank CD, since it would take too long at 2400 baud to download from where I lived. I would spend the weekend there, downloading the install set of Slackware with enough packages to be able to rebuild the kernel, and put the rest of the packages I needed onto the CD. I would bring the whole mess back home, get the base system up, modify the source of the kernel to recognize my CDROM drive, and then build the kernel, so I could finish setting it up on my shiny new 386DX. Friends would be angry with me, since I would do all this with a 12pack of beer, and not remember how I did it the next day. (The installation was done drunk, not the rest of it...) > Aaah, those were the days. Indeed... signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 08:02:59PM +1000, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > > On 30 Jul 2021, at 05:15, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > Riccardo Mottola said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:07:11 +0200 > > > >> Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. > >> Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. > > > > Riccardo, > > > > You just reminded me that I always recommend having a known good, > > doesn't-need-drivers wifi dongle on hand for those times when your > > laptop's wifi won't work during installation. Some are made for the > > Raspberry Pi: I'd guess that those would work on pretty much any > > hardware. > > > > SteveT > > The FSF publishes a list of Linux-compatible hardware at https://ryf.fsf.org Probably only hardware for which the Linux drivers are free. -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:07:43 +0900 Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng wrote: > Hi g4sra, > > g4sra via Dng writes: > > > <--snip--> > > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert > > additional installation media such as a USB stick. There are just > > too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner > > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick > > and use it when prompted! I do not ever want to have to install an > > OS from 31 removable media's ever again! (Windows NT > > anybody?).___ I've done that once, but mostly it has been various versions of Novell which thankfully are not that many as NT was. > > Me waxes nostalgic and remembers installing Debian from 12 > floppies ;-) -- Did it work? My installation didn't, so I then tried the Slackware floppies which also didn't work. Then the Redhat floppies, which did work, which is why my first working distro was Redhat for a few versions. Weirdly I actually has a Suse CD beforehand*, but it was in German and my German language knowledge was effectively nil. *It was sent to the LUG, but no one else wanted it. Aaah, those were the days. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:05:18 +0900 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > Hi Tito, list, > > tito via Dng writes: > > > On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:16:31 + > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > [...snip...] > >> > >> > What am I missing? > >> > >> All the 'other' Drivers that people are complaining are NOT in the > >> netinstall ISO's. > >> I don't understand the point you are making in adding up the Drivers that > >> *are* included. > > > > Hi, > > I'm just saying that I wonder why being not that big in size they were not > > included > > and in fact as you confirm they are included. > > The ones you list here are all firmware blob packages so now the question > > arises > > which are the DRIVER packages that should have been included and are not? > > By inspecting the repos (not the isos) with the synaptic package manager > > I was not able to spot the GBs of packages you mentioned, > > probably this is my fault and I just look in the wrong places. > > For one thing, you are forgetting all the third-party drivers that > aren't in the Debian package repositories to begin with. Hi, I don't think devuan or debian will ever ship them as they will never be packaged so they don't count. If I understood it correctly the problem is about adding the drivers and firmware blobs which are in the non-free repos to the isos and install images and in my opinion for a given arch (i386, am64, etc) they do not sum up to GBs of software and could easily be added to to the bigger images/isos for a best possible user experience (at least for video cards, ethernet cards and wifi cards/dongles). By not doing it potential users are driven away from devuan (and linux) at the beginning of they new linux life of freedom and consciousness. Ciao, Tito > I bought a USB WiFi dongle that (quietly) advertised Linux support and > needed to add the vendor package repository for its out-of-tree driver. > Had to fiddle a little bit to work around Debian<->Devuan issues but it > compiles and works fine otherwise. > > IIRC, there is even a GitHub repository for the sources but I haven't > checked if it contains any blobs. > > The dongle's at the office and I don't remember the vendor/device name. > Sorry. > > Hope this helps, > -- > Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 > GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 > Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate > Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi g4sra, g4sra via Dng writes: > <--snip--> > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > installation media such as a USB stick. > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > when prompted! > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever > again! (Windows NT anybody?).___ Me waxes nostalgic and remembers installing Debian from 12 floppies ;-) -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi Tito, list, tito via Dng writes: > On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:16:31 + > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > [...snip...] >> >> > What am I missing? >> >> All the 'other' Drivers that people are complaining are NOT in the >> netinstall ISO's. >> I don't understand the point you are making in adding up the Drivers that >> *are* included. > > Hi, > I'm just saying that I wonder why being not that big in size they were not > included > and in fact as you confirm they are included. > The ones you list here are all firmware blob packages so now the question > arises > which are the DRIVER packages that should have been included and are not? > By inspecting the repos (not the isos) with the synaptic package manager > I was not able to spot the GBs of packages you mentioned, > probably this is my fault and I just look in the wrong places. For one thing, you are forgetting all the third-party drivers that aren't in the Debian package repositories to begin with. I bought a USB WiFi dongle that (quietly) advertised Linux support and needed to add the vendor package repository for its out-of-tree driver. Had to fiddle a little bit to work around Debian<->Devuan issues but it compiles and works fine otherwise. IIRC, there is even a GitHub repository for the sources but I haven't checked if it contains any blobs. The dongle's at the office and I don't remember the vendor/device name. Sorry. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
> On 30 Jul 2021, at 05:15, Steve Litt wrote: > > Riccardo Mottola said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:07:11 +0200 > >> Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. >> Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. > > Riccardo, > > You just reminded me that I always recommend having a known good, > doesn't-need-drivers wifi dongle on hand for those times when your > laptop's wifi won't work during installation. Some are made for the > Raspberry Pi: I'd guess that those would work on pretty much any > hardware. > > SteveT The FSF publishes a list of Linux-compatible hardware at https://ryf.fsf.org___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:16:31 + g4sra via Dng wrote: > <--snip->> > > > > > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy > > > > > every corner case, > > > > > You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device > > > > > in existence on the installation media. > > > > > Hi, > > > > > let's add this up for example for amd64 > > > > > kernel 48 MB > > firmware-linux-free 19.2 KB > > > > > There no more interesting packages in my Synaptic kernel and modules > > section if we > > assume that a install iso ships just one kernel. > > In the kernel and modules (contrib) section there a few packages not more > > then 20MB. > > in the kernel and modules (non-free) section about 50 more packages about > > 206 MB. > > Some 300 MB in total, where are all the GBs? > > Even if we add DKMS and compilers which I skipped how much GBs will them > > be?. > > > > > What am I missing? > > All the 'other' Drivers that people are complaining are NOT in the netinstall > ISO's. > I don't understand the point you are making in adding up the Drivers that > *are* included. Hi, I'm just saying that I wonder why being not that big in size they were not included and in fact as you confirm they are included. The ones you list here are all firmware blob packages so now the question arises which are the DRIVER packages that should have been included and are not? By inspecting the repos (not the isos) with the synaptic package manager I was not able to spot the GBs of packages you mentioned, probably this is my fault and I just look in the wrong places. Ciao, Tito > mount -o loop devuan_beowulf_3.1.0_amd64-netinstall.iso /mnt/tmp > find /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/ -type f -name "firmware-*" > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43legacy-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/f/firmware-free/firmware-linux-free_3.4_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc-dbgsym_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-adi_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-amd-graphics_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-atheros_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2x_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-brcm80211_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-cavium_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intel-sound_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intelwimax_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ipw2x00_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ivtv_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-iwlwifi_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-libertas_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-misc-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-myricom_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netronome_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netxen_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qcom-media_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qlogic_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ralink_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-realtek_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-samsung_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-siano_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ti-connectivity_20190114-2_all.deb > /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/z/zd1211-firmware/firmware-zd1211_1.5-6_all.deb ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Riccardo Mottola via Dng said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:17:28 +0200 >Also, most essentially, it is a matter of network driver, the rest can >stay on the non-free repository. You need the video drivers too. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Riccardo Mottola said on Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:07:11 +0200 >Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. >Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. Riccardo, You just reminded me that I always recommend having a known good, doesn't-need-drivers wifi dongle on hand for those times when your laptop's wifi won't work during installation. Some are made for the Raspberry Pi: I'd guess that those would work on pretty much any hardware. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
<--snip->> > > > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every > > > > corner case, > > > > You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device in > > > > existence on the installation media. > > Hi, > > let's add this up for example for amd64 > > kernel 48 MB > firmware-linux-free 19.2 KB > > There no more interesting packages in my Synaptic kernel and modules section > if we > assume that a install iso ships just one kernel. > In the kernel and modules (contrib) section there a few packages not more > then 20MB. > in the kernel and modules (non-free) section about 50 more packages about 206 > MB. > Some 300 MB in total, where are all the GBs? > Even if we add DKMS and compilers which I skipped how much GBs will them be?. > > What am I missing? All the 'other' Drivers that people are complaining are NOT in the netinstall ISO's. I don't understand the point you are making in adding up the Drivers that *are* included. mount -o loop devuan_beowulf_3.1.0_amd64-netinstall.iso /mnt/tmp find /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/ -type f -name "firmware-*" /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/contrib/b/b43-fwcutter/firmware-b43legacy-installer_019-4+deb10u1_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/f/firmware-free/firmware-linux-free_3.4_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc-dbgsym_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/main/o/open-ath9k-htc-firmware/firmware-ath9k-htc_1.4.0-97-g75b3e59+dfsg-3_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-adi_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-amd-graphics_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-atheros_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-bnx2x_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-brcm80211_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-cavium_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intel-sound_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-intelwimax_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ipw2x00_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ivtv_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-iwlwifi_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-libertas_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-linux_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-misc-nonfree_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-myricom_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netronome_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-netxen_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qcom-media_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-qlogic_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ralink_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-realtek_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-samsung_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-siano_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/f/firmware-nonfree/firmware-ti-connectivity_20190114-2_all.deb /mnt/tmp/pool/DEBIAN/non-free/z/zd1211-firmware/firmware-zd1211_1.5-6_all.deb publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi, g4sra via Dng wrote: > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > installation media such as a USB stick. > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > when prompted! > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever > again! (Windows NT anybody?). that's a bit an excuse and also extremely inconvenient. Since downloading of that firmware is not certain an eeasy procedure for the website. I bet many of the essential drivers could fit on the DVD, we are not speaking of floppies here. Also, most essentially, it is a matter of network driver, the rest can stay on the non-free repository. Riccardo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:43:00 + g4sra via Dng wrote: > On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 6:58 AM, tito via Dng > wrote: > > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:26:07 + > > g4sra via Dng dng@lists.dyne.org wrote: > > > <--snip--> > > > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > > > installation media such as a USB stick. > > > > > Hi > > > > > The user most of the time doesn't even know which driver or firmware blob > > he needs so this is not a solution > > (unless you know how to scan dmesg...to spot the trouble). > > > > > Better would be to tell them: > > 1. minimal install, netinstall isos/usb images are for advanced users as > > they could miss firmware/drivers and you are on your own. > > 2. full install CD/DVD/usb images contain all available firmware/drivers > > and give best results (plus initial opt out of non-free stuff defaulting > > to: I want it) > > Note the line following in my original text > > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every > > > corner case, > You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device in > existence on the installation media. Hi, let's add this up for example for amd64 kernel 48 MB firmware-linux-free 19.2 KB There no more interesting packages in my Synaptic kernel and modules section if we assume that a install iso ships just one kernel. In the kernel and modules (contrib) section there a few packages not more then 20MB. in the kernel and modules (non-free) section about 50 more packages about 206 MB. Some 300 MB in total, where are all the GBs? Even if we add DKMS and compilers which I skipped how much GBs will them be?. What am I missing? Ciao, Tito > > > > put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > > > when prompted! > > > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's > > > ever again! (Windows NT anybody?). > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Hi, Steve Litt wrote: > I hate the preceding hassle. Every Linux distro's install media should > have all drivers available during installation. After installation, if > the user wishes to remove all non-free from his computer, he can do so. > Or, the installation process can come with an "include nonfree drivers > and blobs" switch that defaults to "yes". > > Some people believe the worst sin is to have anything non-free on your > system. That's their prerogative. But adopting a zero-tolerance for > nonfree during install drives people away from free software in droves. > The perfect is the enemy of the good. I 100% agree. This firmware issue is a hassle, but especially with laptops, often there is no big choice. Ideology doesn't get you far. I agree with a toggle, a dialog box, warning "try with non-free" ? Of coruse, the ideal world doesn't need it, but I guess once you have a piece of hwardware that needs that crap, what can you do? Most people will "accept anyway, just to get it working" or accept another OS. Sometimes you can find another card, but that is not always possible. Rarely you can know exactly what is inside a Laptop on beforehand. In the same model manufacturer can put in "equivalent cards", they just need to match the spec, not the chipset. Of course I prefer promoting hardware which is more open, but then... once you have a system you want to use ii. I don't know what these diehards do.. try 100 systems to get one working? > > I don't care what Debian does, I'd suggest that Devuan's default > install include all the non-free drivers, firmware and blobs that > Devuan has, and just have a way to shut it off for the more > Stallmanesque among us. > > Riccardo, I love how you got around this problem. I never thought of > installing from DVD and then grabbing Wifi after installation's > complete. I'd never thought of that: I just used a different distro if > install didn't work. It is only possible if you have a second computer :) With just one, in this condition you are "stuck" Steve, I am relatively stubborn being in several Open Source project, having a lot of different test hardware for the community and not being a newbie. I started with the idea that this would be a test, even if it one of my best laptops. But you are right, probably most people will just slap on SuSE or Ubuntu and it would work. It is some work, but giving this option would improve Devuan. Exactly as Devuan would be appealing if it could maintain more Xorg video drivers which still exist but are "deprecated" by official Debian. Since Devuan is lighter, it appeals vintage systems - this is how I started with it. Riccardo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Thursday, July 29th, 2021 at 6:58 AM, tito via Dng wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:26:07 + > g4sra via Dng dng@lists.dyne.org wrote: > > <--snip--> > > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > > installation media such as a USB stick. > > Hi > > The user most of the time doesn't even know which driver or firmware blob he > needs so this is not a solution > (unless you know how to scan dmesg...to spot the trouble). > > Better would be to tell them: > 1. minimal install, netinstall isos/usb images are for advanced users as > they could miss firmware/drivers and you are on your own. > 2. full install CD/DVD/usb images contain all available firmware/drivers and > give best results (plus initial opt out of non-free stuff defaulting to: I > want it) Note the line following in my original text > > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every > > corner case, You would need to put Drivers and Firmware for every network device in existence on the installation media. > > put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > > when prompted! > > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever > > again! (Windows NT anybody?). > publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:26:07 + g4sra via Dng wrote: > <--snip--> > This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional > installation media such as a USB stick. Hi The user most of the time doesn't even know which driver or firmware blob he needs so this is not a solution (unless you know how to scan dmesg...to spot the trouble). Better would be to tell them: 1) minimal install, netinstall isos/usb images are for advanced users as they could miss firmware/drivers and you are on your own. 2) full install CD/DVD/usb images contain all available firmware/drivers and give best results (plus initial opt out of non-free stuff defaulting to: I want it) Just my 2 cents, Ciao, Tito > There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner > case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it > when prompted! > I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever > again! (Windows NT anybody?). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 17:29:55 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > Riccardo Mottola via Dng said on Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:06:15 +0200 > >Hi all, > > > >I "converted" a laptop from Windows 7 to Devuan and as a test, I > >installed chimaera. The intel display should have no issues. > >Install wasn't too easy due to the system having only WiFi and no > >Optical drive - the WiFi needs firmware not included in the install > >media. I used an USB stick with the full DVD, installed offline then > >found the firmware on debian, copied over with an USB stick and > >things do work. > > I hate the preceding hassle. Every Linux distro's install media should > have all drivers available during installation. After installation, if > the user wishes to remove all non-free from his computer, he can do > so. Or, the installation process can come with an "include nonfree > drivers and blobs" switch that defaults to "yes". > ... I thought it worth to accompany this with the factual observation, that Devuan's chimaera install isos, even before the alpha builds, have all included all identifiable firmware. There is of course some story about "using Joliet rather than Rick Ridge", which possibly may apply to Windows-targeted hardware and cause grief for the unfortunate. And also, maybe Riccardo's media was not a "Devuan's chimaera installer iso". Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
<--snip--> This is why Devuan's installer will ask\prompt you to insert additional installation media such as a USB stick. There are just too many Gigabytes of Drivers required to satisfy every corner case, put the drivers your quirky hardware requires on a USB stick and use it when prompted! I do not ever want to have to install an OS from 31 removable media's ever again! (Windows NT anybody?). publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
Antony Stone said on Wed, 28 Jul 2021 23:42:52 +0200 >On Wednesday 28 July 2021 at 23:29:55, Steve Litt wrote: > >> Every Linux distro's install media should have all drivers available >> during installation. After installation, if the user wishes to >> remove all non-free from his computer, he can do so. >> Or, the installation process can come with an "include nonfree >> drivers and blobs" switch that defaults to "yes". > >I agree that the *install media* should have all drivers available, so >they can be used for the installation process. Yes! > >It should still be the user's choice as to whether to *install* those >drivers into the working system, or whether simply to *use* them for >the installation process itself (either may be a valid choice, >depending on what hardware we're talking about). Yes, and I'd like the default to be "use nonfree". > >It would, of course, be good of the installer to point out that "if >you don't choose to install this non-free driver, then that part of >your system will very likely not work". Yes! > >> I don't care what Debian does, I'd suggest that Devuan's default >> install include all the non-free drivers, firmware and blobs that >> Devuan has, and just have a way to shut it off for the more >> Stallmanesque among us. > >I agree with this, because: > >> adopting a zero-tolerance for nonfree during install drives people >> away from free software in droves. > >We should make it easy for people to install Open Source software on >whatever hardware they have, if it can somehow be supported. If that >then gives the user a personal dilemma between "use this hardware with >non-free software" or "use only free software and miss out on the >hardware", then at least that's their choice, but at present they >don't even get the choice - the hardware simply doesn't work with free >software, so they can't even try out free software on the (rest of >the) hardware they have. X actly!!! SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Rant: was fresh install of chimaera on an Ultrabook - no touchpad
On Wednesday 28 July 2021 at 23:29:55, Steve Litt wrote: > Every Linux distro's install media should have all drivers available during > installation. After installation, if the user wishes to remove all non-free > from his computer, he can do so. > Or, the installation process can come with an "include nonfree drivers > and blobs" switch that defaults to "yes". I agree that the *install media* should have all drivers available, so they can be used for the installation process. It should still be the user's choice as to whether to *install* those drivers into the working system, or whether simply to *use* them for the installation process itself (either may be a valid choice, depending on what hardware we're talking about). It would, of course, be good of the installer to point out that "if you don't choose to install this non-free driver, then that part of your system will very likely not work". > I don't care what Debian does, I'd suggest that Devuan's default install > include all the non-free drivers, firmware and blobs that Devuan has, and > just have a way to shut it off for the more Stallmanesque among us. I agree with this, because: > adopting a zero-tolerance for nonfree during install drives people away from > free software in droves. We should make it easy for people to install Open Source software on whatever hardware they have, if it can somehow be supported. If that then gives the user a personal dilemma between "use this hardware with non-free software" or "use only free software and miss out on the hardware", then at least that's their choice, but at present they don't even get the choice - the hardware simply doesn't work with free software, so they can't even try out free software on the (rest of the) hardware they have. Antony. -- I want to build a machine that will be proud of me. - Danny Hillis, creator of The Connection Machine Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
