Re: [Dng] dev-list
Am Mittwoch, 8. April 2015, 08:09:14 schrieb Robert Storey: > > Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because > > of > > the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have > > to > > wade > > > through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I > > would > sign up > > > to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because > > I'm not really qualified to do so. > > All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes > of all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have > Devuan in our hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no > bug reports, etc. All we can do for entertainment chat about what > Richard Stallman thinks of systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and > enquire about when Devuan-alpha will be released. I try to avoid those > silly discussions, but have occasionally broken down and participated. > > Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss > the real technology, and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And > I may finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the > documentation. Seriously? Then I´d suggest creating a "I am bored and want to talk about trivia" kind of mailinglist. Or a course in meditation to be able to deal with some silence in between. I still hardly read the list due for the reasons I already explained which are similar reasons why I unsubscribed debian-user: The noise to useful content ratio is so high that I feel it to be like a waste of time to try to find the interesting messages in between in most threads. So for now, I just check, is it Jude posting vdev news, read that, and, honestly mostly forget about the rest. I can deal with it like that, my mail program can as well, but this way I may miss some of the mails that have useful content. Heck, I don´t even expect every mail to be useful for me. But a bit better ratio, that would be good. So please, if you just post here out of boredom: Stop! And use your boredom as a chance for personal development. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Would like to help with Devuan
Reading can get you a bit on the way but it's better to start hacking. At least for me I think is where I learn best. pick some project that interest you and start there. I think its better to do something that is important to yourself in the beginning. On Wednesday, April 8, 2015, JeremyBekka C wrote: > Hello, > > I hope this is the right place to post this question, but I am looking > for some advice on how to gain the necessary technical skills to help with > future development of Devuan. > > > I am relatively new to Linux (2 years) and to computing in general. > Prior to starting in Linux, I had just a rudimentary knowledge of computers > (just from running Windows and building my own computer from parts bought > online), but I have learned a lot of the last 2 years through working with > Linux. I have read William E. Shotts book The Linux Command Line, and I > also earned a Verified Certificate from the Linux Foundation by taking the > Introduction to Linux class at www.edx.org. I am currently trying to > learn Python through an online tutorial at http://www.learnpython.org/. > > > The reason why I would like to help with Devuan is because I really love > Linux and am sad to see what is being done to it by RedHat and systemd. > Last year I was really discouraged because I felt like I had discovered > Linux to late and now all that I loved about it was going away. So, it was > a real encouragement to see the VUA and their announcement about Devuan. I > understand the difference between Open Source and Free Software and would > like to be a part of a community like Devuan that values the freedom of its > users. > > > I know that I have a lot to learn, especially after reading the > technical posts here about the development of Devuan, but I am motivated > and want to learn. There is so much out there to read that I am overwhelmed > sometimes and don't really know where to start. There are so many man pages > that I really don't know which ones are the most important ones to read > first. So, I am wondering if I could get some tips on what I need to learn > and how I can go about getting the proper training to be of service here in > the Devuan community. I would like to be able to help detect and fix bugs, > and maybe become a package manager someday. > > > Thanks for your advice, > > > Jeremy > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
I would be on both lists Sometimes I enjoy the chatter and sometimes I press delete On Wednesday, April 8, 2015, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 8. April 2015, 08:09:14 schrieb Robert Storey: > > > Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because > > > of > > > the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have > > > to > > > > wade > > > > > through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I > > > would > > sign up > > > > > to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because > > > I'm not really qualified to do so. > > > > All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes > > of all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have > > Devuan in our hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no > > bug reports, etc. All we can do for entertainment chat about what > > Richard Stallman thinks of systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and > > enquire about when Devuan-alpha will be released. I try to avoid those > > silly discussions, but have occasionally broken down and participated. > > > > Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss > > the real technology, and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And > > I may finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the > > documentation. > > Seriously? > > Then I´d suggest creating a "I am bored and want to talk about trivia" > kind of mailinglist. Or a course in meditation to be able to deal with > some silence in between. > > I still hardly read the list due for the reasons I already explained which > are similar reasons why I unsubscribed debian-user: The noise to useful > content ratio is so high that I feel it to be like a waste of time to try > to find the interesting messages in between in most threads. > > So for now, I just check, is it Jude posting vdev news, read that, and, > honestly mostly forget about the rest. I can deal with it like that, my > mail program can as well, but this way I may miss some of the mails that > have useful content. > > Heck, I don´t even expect every mail to be useful for me. But a bit better > ratio, that would be good. So please, if you just post here out of > boredom: > > Stop! > > And use your boredom as a chance for personal development. > > Thanks, > -- > Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de > GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Harden script for Devuan-Harden team.
Dear Devuan-Harden team; Could you get the bastille-linux hardening script working with Devuan Alpha? It nolonger runs on some linux distributions, this may show that these distributions have moved far away from traditional unix/linux. It is a very convenient script to run after installation. It's value should not have to be stated. To let it fall away like this is a tragedy. (As a reference it last worked in wheezy-sid right around release of wheezy-stable, the script detected debian but not a stable version so just did what it does by default for debian) (example: API.pm: print STDERR "$err System is not running a stable Debian GNU/Linux version. Setting to $stable.\n" if ! defined $WARN_OS;) To add a distro to the script you edit, in: /usr/lib/Bastille/ API.pm Debian, for instance, has various lines there, it also has this file: Debian_API.pm Links: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bastille-linux/ http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/b/bastille/ bastille_3.0.9-13_all.deb (this version worked well enough, latest deb that could be found through google) It goes without saying that bastille has nothing to do with systemd/linux Sincerely, George ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Would like to help with Devuan
Hi Jeremy. Welcome to the wide, wide, world of Linux and in large measure POSIX. While I am not a distribution packager such as a Debian Developer, I do help maintain an upstream project that is in Debian so my perspective is a bit more broad than a single distribution. You wrote that you're working through a Python tutorial which is fine. I did the same some years ago and it will teach some useful concepts. That said, if you really want to work with the nuts and bolts of a Linux distribution, there is no getting around the fact that you'll want to be familiar with C. Getting familiar with C these days encompasses more than just being familiar with the C language as it extends to knowledge of the ISO standard C library, the GNU, BSD, and POSIX extensions to the standard library (glibc). Then there are ancillary tools such as GNU Autotools used to distribute upstream packages, Git for distributed source code version control, GNU utilities such as the linker and friends, and the GNU debugger (GDB). While detailed knowledge isn't required of each of these, a good working knowledge is beneficial. Then you'll want to be familiar with shell scripting as you'll find it everywhere throughout the system. One should also understand there is a difference between writing a Bash script and a POSIX shell script (GNU has added many useful extensions to Bash that may not be necessarily portable to other shells). That is a broad range of familiarity that will serve you well no matter what distribution or *nix variant you choose to work with. Finally will be tools specific to a distribution. Perl falls in this category as in Debian and derivatives Perl is used in various places. Python will fall into this category as well. You'll also want to be familiar with Vi(m) and Emacs as editors. Vim works well with many file types such as Git commit messages. Emacs works very well with GDB in X as an integrated debugger. Each editor has its strength and while you may prefer a GUI editor, knowing how to use both of these editors at a console will serve you well. That's a lot! Most of it is my opinion on the range of tools a developer and/or packager should know. The good thing is that you can build on the knowledge of each aspect step-by-step, and not necessarily in the order I listed them. ;-) Have fun! - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Would like to help with Devuan
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:07:13PM -0400, JeremyBekka C wrote: [cut] > > I know that I have a lot to learn, especially after reading the technical > posts here about the development of Devuan, but I am motivated and want to > learn. There is so much out there to read that I am overwhelmed sometimes > and don't really know where to start. There are so many man pages that I > really don't know which ones are the most important ones to read first. So, > I am wondering if I could get some tips on what I need to learn and how I > can go about getting the proper training to be of service here in the > Devuan community. I would like to be able to help detect and fix bugs, and > maybe become a package manager someday. > > Welcome Jeremy, as other have already said, there is probably no standard recipe to get there :) IMHO, the manpages that you must to read first are those of the programs that you need right now, the programming language to learn first is the one that you need right now, the tools to use first are those that you need right now, and so on. That's because studying something that you need or would very much like to know is much easier than just reading anything at random. Having said that, if you don't feel a compulsive need to know anything in particular, then you should probably start from the core utils: $ info coreutils and when you have gone through them you can start wandering at random, e.g.: $ man `ls /bin /sbin | shuf | head -1` and when you are done with those, try: $ man `ls /usr/bin /usr/sbin | shuf | head -1` But remember: manpages are there to be read when you need them, not to be memorised :) Concerning programming languages, I agree that C should be the first choice, together with shell scripting and then one of either Perl or Python. But again, if you can't find a way of using them, or you don't feel the need to use them for something in particular, then you will just learn and forget almost everything. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Jude Nelson wrote on 04/07/15 20:04: > > suggest that Pottering is evil, > > > Definitely looking forward to this stopping. Agreed. It accomplishes nothing but heat up the list and add to the static. RE: Development list: Since there is way more general chit-chat, how about having the developers prefix actual dev topics with a [DEV] (or similar) in the subject? General mail tools could filter for that for those who wish. Also, If a [DEV] thread gets off of the original topic, the subject line could have that tag removed by anyone replying. Likewise if a thread _becomes_ a dev topic. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Would like to help with Devuan
Welcome aboard, Jeremy! The easiest way to help out is to use Devuan regularly, and keep track of the things about it that bother you. Then, try to figure out how to fix them, and share your fixes--be they new program configurations, shell scripts, Python scripts or C programs. If you ever get stuck, feel free to email the list and we can help you :) -Jude On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:40 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:07:13PM -0400, JeremyBekka C wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > I know that I have a lot to learn, especially after reading the > technical > > posts here about the development of Devuan, but I am motivated and want > to > > learn. There is so much out there to read that I am overwhelmed sometimes > > and don't really know where to start. There are so many man pages that I > > really don't know which ones are the most important ones to read first. > So, > > I am wondering if I could get some tips on what I need to learn and how I > > can go about getting the proper training to be of service here in the > > Devuan community. I would like to be able to help detect and fix bugs, > and > > maybe become a package manager someday. > > > > > > Welcome Jeremy, > > as other have already said, there is probably no standard recipe to > get there :) IMHO, the manpages that you must to read first are those > of the programs that you need right now, the programming language to > learn first is the one that you need right now, the tools to use first > are those that you need right now, and so on. That's because studying > something that you need or would very much like to know is much easier > than just reading anything at random. > > Having said that, if you don't feel a compulsive need to know anything > in particular, then you should probably start from the core utils: > > $ info coreutils > > and when you have gone through them you can start wandering at random, > e.g.: > > $ man `ls /bin /sbin | shuf | head -1` > > and when you are done with those, try: > > $ man `ls /usr/bin /usr/sbin | shuf | head -1` > > But remember: manpages are there to be read when you need them, not to > be memorised :) > > Concerning programming languages, I agree that C should be the first > choice, together with shell scripting and then one of either Perl or > Python. But again, if you can't find a way of using them, or you don't > feel the need to use them for something in particular, then you will > just learn and forget almost everything. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
FYI, I've been working on a Discourse instance for Devuan, so that we can have the best of both worlds (email and forum). If this happens, the developers can simply ignore threads they're not interested in and keep focused on work. The forum form is likely to grow beyond what any single person can follow anyway, so I hope the email integration will be good enough for the purpose of replacing the mailing list. Nothing written in stone though, just a general intention. == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. Users are in an intimate relationship with developers (they eat the dogfood, so to speak) and they deserve to remain in communication. But there are many legitimate topics that need discussion but are not technical in nature, such as the logo wars. Presumably Devuan Weekly News would report on both, and be published on both. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 11:57 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, > it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. > *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and ignore the rest. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about > development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not > interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and > ignore the rest. > The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases, people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 07:44 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, > and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural > template to follow. > *** Except the move from IRC to email matches in nature the move from fish to mammals. Two completely different worlds. On IRC it makes sense to use as many channels as you like, because you're just an Alt-A away from any of them. We have #debianfork for, well, general chat. We have #devuan, which was originally a split for developers, but became a tad more chatty than anticipated. And then we have #devuan-dev where bots spit commits like it's raining bits, so people there hardly chat. I really don't believe there's a natural template to follow there, besides NOT alienating users and devs. What I'm looking forward to is having a single "Devuan community channel" that people can use via email or Web seamlessly, and where specific groups can form and have focused discussions while other people will chat away their lives for their own and others' enjoyment. But at any moment, someone can send a heads up and have all eyeballs watching that group fading away and call them back to the center of everyone's attention. This won't happen with split lists. This already happens on the gitlab where issues can be used as focused back and forth communication media to get things done. I hope the forum can satisfy the needs of a larger community who won't necessarily adopt a pragmatic and utilitarian approach of "tracking issues". All things being equal, I'd rather stick to the minimalist mailing list approach: one. I'm already struggling to read any single mailing list regularly not to have another two lists in my inbox. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >> We do not need another list. >> > > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like > others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I > said so" > It's not arrogant, it's a fact. There's not even a single release, only a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach developers from users? You're proposing to solve a problem that does not exist yet. People used to mailing lists use filters when they're annoyed with the traffic. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:17 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it > *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases, > people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever. > *** I agree that Mailman's topics suck because it's on the poster to remember to put the tag. The good thing though, is that developers are more likely to learn the trick than non-developers, especially if they automate this when sending to the list*, which developers know how to do, right? So noise automatically gets below the threshold with a minimal effort. * On the condition they stick to posting "work-related stuff" and refrain from being human. But I'd rather have a "mailing list" system that allows anyone to subscribe once, and then select topics they are actually interested in participating to, rather than segregating from the start. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The new forum
Apologies for the spam, but: Bahahahahahaha! Linux O'Beardly @LinuxOBeardly http://o.beard.ly linux.obear...@gmail.com On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:46 AM, poitr pogo wrote: > i'm just wondering how you non-technical people who hate technical talks > will force technical-people interested in technical aspects to use your > non-technical forum an listen to non-technical talks and prevent them from > running their own, closed technical mailing list free from non-technical > talks :D > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 05:22:55PM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > "report every kind of device, since it listens to the kernel's driver > > core > > > > (i.e. libudev learns about network interfaces, buses, power supplies, > > > > etc.--stuff for which there are no device files" > > > > Currently, it doesn't *report* devices; that takes something longer term, > > like inotify, polling a netlink socket, or listening to a daemon. > > > > It also has no clue about events or hardware that could not have a > > corresponding device, since it uses block/char and major:minor to find > > the hardware. > > > > I have a general idea of how to get information like this, by recursing > > through /sys or /dev, and I know of some code I could use as a starting > > point, but I don't know what the ideal format is. > > If someone points me at a program they'd like to use without libudev > > (preferably C with minimal dependencies) that doesn't cover a lot of > > ground (ie, it's clear what functionality udev provides, and I wouldn't > > need to duplicate much of libudev to get it working), that would be a > > good starting point for expanding libsysdev. > > > > You might find something useful in vdev_linux_sysfs_register_devices() and > vdev_linux_sysfs_find_devices() functions in vdevd/os/linux.c. They're > both involved in generating the initial coldplug device listing. They only > need libc to work, and libvdev/sglib.h for basic data structures. I know how to get the devices that show up in /dev; I'm not sure about getting the sysfs entries that *don't* show up there. I'm also not sure how anything beyond this is used. > > > > To avoid the troublesome corner case where a libudev client crashes and > > > >> potentially leaves behind a directory in /dev/uevents/, I would > > recommend > > > >> mounting runfs [1] on /dev/uevents. Runfs is a special FUSE > > filesystem I > > > >> wrote a while back that ensures that the files created in it by a > > > >> particular process get automatically unlinked when that process dies > > (it > > > >> was originally meant for holding PID files). > > Hmm... > > Do we need to have a subdirectory of the mountpoint? > > Could you just use ACLs if you need to make a limited subset available? > > I get the impression that we can do this for mdev via a script along > > these lines: > > > > FILENAME=`env | sha512sum | cut -d' ' -f1` > > for f in /dev/uevents/* > > do env >"$f"/$FILENAME > > done > > > > but it would be *nicer* if we only needed to write one file. > > > > I agree that one file per event is ideal (or even a circular logfile of > events, if we could guarantee only one writer). However, I'm not sure yet > what a fine-grained ACL for device events would look like. My motivation > for per-client directories is that unprivileged clients can be made to see > only its own events and no one else's by default (i.e. by chmod'ing the > directory to 0700), and that they make it easy reason about sending > post-processed events only to the clients you want--just change the list of > directories to iterate over in that for-loop :) Which is not trivial in shell, unless you have a special command to do the work of figuring out which which directories get what. ...which seems to make doing this in shell pointless, since the corresponding C is nearly as trivial. > > Also, wouldn't mounting that with runfs result in records of uevents > > getting erased if they're written by a helper rather than a daemon? > > > > Yes; good catch. There are a couple straightforward ways to address this: > (1) have a separate, unprivileged device-event-log daemon curate > /dev/uevents/ and have the helper scripts forward device events to it, or > (2) fork and/or patch runfs to allow files to persist if they're generated > by a certain whitelist of programs (i.e. all programs in a particular set > of directories, like /lib/vdev/), but disappear otherwise once the creating > process dies. What about (3) having an option for runfs that lets it erase directories (with their subentries) on process termination, but lets regular files persist until then? > Thanks for your feedback! > -Jude You're welcome. Thanks, Isaac ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> We do not need another list. > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I said so" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > Thats just uninformed bullshit. > > [snip] > > list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev > list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for > the most tenuous of arguments. > *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and build something different that won't end up in an isolated technical committee in their ivory towers, and bullies. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Apollia wrote: > I'm also glad there is a forum: http://talk.devuan.org/ > > I actually prefer forums over mailing lists in general because forums > seem to be more organized, which makes it easier for people to avoid > anything they're uninterested in. I didn't realize we had a forum. And I agree that it would be more organized to post questions/comments that way. Indeed, we could have one section of the forum for developer discussions, one area for general questions, etc. Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing list(s) and start using the forum? Anyway, now that I know of the forum's existence, I just went and signed up. No posts yet, of course, but when there's an alpha release, I'll be ready to direct my questions there. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] The new forum
This is one of my favorite quotes from dasein over on the debian forums: "Ubuntu forums try to be like a coffee shop in Seattle. Debian forums strive for the charm and ambience of a skinhead bar in Bacau." I would rate the ambiance of the new devuan forum to the left of the Seattle coffee house. It bears little resemblance to the technical forums to which I have become accustomed. At least there are no beans. Oh wait . . . it has 'badges' instead. Badges? Really?? Good grief! Why can't we have a no-fills forum that isn't so cutsy, socially-tainted and icon-laden? I may be completely misreading things but it seems to cater to a completely different crowd than the one populating this list. I can appreciate all the effort that hellekin has put into the forum project but aren't there saner options with fewer useless frills? Do we really want to launch with this forum representing devuan? Please reconsider . . . golinux (I've been biting my tongue but it was time to say something. Maybe it's just me that's out of sync . . . ) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> should we just retire the mailing list(s) and start using the forum? > ...I don't even... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 09:49 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict > or noise on Dng: > > 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the > merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or > filter and move on. > > 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their > technicalities and possible concerns about future changes. > > 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses. > > 4) Any "don't feed the troll" responses I give will be offlist. > *** +1. We do not need another list. If and when we do, we can think about it. It's the third message I send on the same topic in three different threads. I can't see that as being very productive. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 05:47:25PM -0300, hellekin wrote: > On 04/08/2015 11:57 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, > > it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. > > > *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about > development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not > interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and > ignore the rest. That would suffice. I didn't know it was possible to subscribe to one topic in a mailing list. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The new forum
On 04/08/2015 06:34 PM, Go Linux wrote: > > It bears little resemblance to the technical forums to which I have become > accustomed. > *** Thank you. I really hope non-technical people will like it. I hate technical discussions about computers. They suck, because they're either dick-wagging contests or quickly fall far from the humans supposedly benefiting from them. It's time for people to amplify their minds, and not suffer the diktat of flat-ass belly-rounded specialists. > Badges? Really?? Good grief! > *** That's a default feature of the system. It can be disabled. It could also prove useful. It consists in specific requests against the database. I have no opinion about them. > Why can't we have a no-fills forum that isn't so cutsy, socially-tainted > and icon-laden? > *** There's an option that is (allegedly) activated to enable participation by email, and that's the principle feature I'm looking forward to see working and working well. > it seems to cater to a completely different crowd than the one populating > this list. > *** Yes, I anticipate that the more successful we are, the less email freaks will haunt the community--says an email freak. An important point to keep in mind is that this system (supposedly) can function as a mailing list, except you can opt-in (or out) or what you actually want to receive in your inbox. Another advantage of the forum, and this one in particular, is the ability to recompose topics so that conversation becomes discussion, and discussion becomes documentation. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The new forum
Interesting observations, Go. I joined today and made a single post. I did like the split screen feature that shows a preview in real time. As for the theme, so long as it is logical to navigate I am not too concerned. Over the years I've used a lot of Vbulletin and PHPbb sites that have been themed and laid out in various fashions. It does take some time to get used to each and after that it's no big deal. The good thing about mailing lists is that they mostly look the same in Mutt. :-) Regardless, I do appreciate the effort being put forth in this project and I look for that to continue. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The new forum
i'm just wondering how you non-technical people who hate technical talks will force technical-people interested in technical aspects to use your non-technical forum an listen to non-technical talks and prevent them from running their own, closed technical mailing list free from non-technical talks :D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 19:16:34 -0400 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 05:44:41 +0800 > Robert Storey wrote: > > > Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing > > list(s) and start using the forum? > > Please dont; with a mailing list one can keep locally the messages > that seem interesting, for later reference. > > If you are dead keen on a forum, at least please go for one of those > that are ambivalent, and can be accessed as a forum as well as > distribute all postings as emails. Cheers, I agree. With mailing lists, posts come to you, you don't go out looking for the posts. With mailing lists, it's dead bang easy to send to the proper folders, and easy to send individuals to /dev/null if appropriate. I think splitting the list solves a problem we don't have. We had one or two threads that got too hot. That's it. I'd say the loss of easy communication between devs and users isn't worth being rid of those one or two hot threads. Someone mentioned marking something with [dev]. So if one wants to talk about how to configure their desktop, does (s)he mark that with [dev], or relegate it to the chatter channel to be discussed with opinions of the init system that shall not be mentioned? Neither is completely appropriate or efficient. My daddy always told me that if I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem, so in order to be part of the solution, I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict or noise on Dng: 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or filter and move on. 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their technicalities and possible concerns about future changes. 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses. 4) Any "don't feed the troll" responses I give will be offlist. Debian separated the user list from the devs, and we all saw where that led. Lets try to make our one and only list a good one for everyone. Steve Steve Litt Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed 08 April 2015 23:27:21 Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Martijn Dekkers > > This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a > > (strong) desire for this from some people. > > Just because some people called for it, doesn't mean they feel > strongly about it. > Again, just being picky. We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural template to follow. > Oh, holy devs, i intentionally did not put [DEV] in the subject (a > reasonable suggestion if i might add). yes, one of the best suggestions so far. Right after getting a DEV ML for strictly technical topics. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu 09 April 2015 05:44:41 Robert Storey wrote: > Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing > list(s) and start using the forum? Real Programmers dont use Forum On a less joking comment: the ML is the medium of choice for serious communication, simply since you don't need a web browser for it, and nobody doing serious work based on - or involving - a communication medium will want to poll a forum 20 times a day for new posts - that's what mail clients got invented for, to start with (well actually POP3 and the clients were first, nonsense like web mailers and fora came later). Thus retiring ML is probably not an option, though of course the decision is up to the developers in the end. Integrating ML and forum afaik never really panned out either, since usually the noise from forum incl the web/URL centric style popular there will poison the ML. Guess why e.g. LKML is no forum, after all those years. Seems ML just work for certain specific use cases. Forum works for other usecases maybe. my 2 €-cent /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The new forum
On Wed 08 April 2015 14:34:44 Go Linux wrote: > I would rate the ambiance of [...] > I may be completely misreading things but it seems to cater to > a completely different crowd than the one populating this list. > > I can appreciate all the effort that hellekin has put into the forum project > but aren't there saner options with fewer useless frills? Do we really want > to launch with this forum representing devuan? Please reconsider . . . full ack and +1 /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> > The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a > bogus argument. Similar to "Lots of people jump of bridges, care to > join them?" > Thats just uninformed bullshit. "Patterns" are one of the cornerstones of modern computing architecture - without patterns everybody will be doomed to re-invent everything from the ground up. Comparing patterns with bridge-jumping is ridiculous, and not a little bit stupid. Separate lists are widely practiced in the open source community at large because they work, not "because everybody else is doing it". This discussion has gone from a simple request for a -dev list to a wide ranging discussion about how we can do something similar without actually going for the cheapest and easiest option (which is to have a separate list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for the most tenuous of arguments. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 05:44:41 +0800 Robert Storey wrote: > Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing > list(s) and start using the forum? Please dont; with a mailing list one can keep locally the messages that seem interesting, for later reference. If you are dead keen on a forum, at least please go for one of those that are ambivalent, and can be accessed as a forum as well as distribute all postings as emails. Cheers, Ron. -- Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Hi, Just me being picky here. On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > The flip side is those that say "don't split the lists" - there again is no > significant cost to subscribing to both both lists, and follow and > participate in both lists if they so wish. It isn't so much a segregation of > a community, it is a segregation of topics - and a long standing, > wide-ranging implementation pattern in the wider open-source community at > that. Maybe i should say "self-segregation" instead. That's my beef, but as you correctly say, anyone can join any list (and leave it too). The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a bogus argument. Similar to "Lots of people jump of bridges, care to join them?" > This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a (strong) > desire for this from some people. Just because some people called for it, doesn't mean they feel strongly about it. Again, just being picky. Oh, holy devs, i intentionally did not put [DEV] in the subject (a reasonable suggestion if i might add). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
