Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
Norm There seems to be a rough consensus on this now. What's the next step? Mart Am Samstag, 12. Oktober 2002 12:13 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario task objective.../objective solution.../solution /task task objective.../objective solution.../solution /task ... /exercise This structure makes complete sense to me. The term task is much better than problem. In an objective you can also say Answer the following questions and than just use an OrderedList. And so you can do in the corresponding solution. Some method of controlling Stylesheets would be required to enable authors to display solutions or not depending on the documentation required. For example, a Student version of the document might not contain solutions whereas the Tutor version of the document would contain everything. That would be really great! Joachim
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
* Norman Walsh; [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 16 Oct, 2002 wrote: | Objective in my opionion is a higher level element. module | moduleinfo | title/title | objective | orderedlist | listitem /listitem | listitem /listitem | /orderedlist | /moduleinfo Module has awfully wide and varied connotations. What are you suggesting here? How does it relate to the 'exercise' markup discussion? Well if I remember correctly the whole thread started with the possibility of creating manuals for the Teacher and the Student. If I am writing a manual for teaching use then there are modules for each session. Every module has objectives to be covered in the session and then during the session there are exerceises (Self tests). Once the module is done then there can be Knowledge Reviews and Quizzes. While Knowledge Reviews are self study quiz/exam are not. In Performance base teaching Objectives are vital in preparing the Content and the Questions (for exercies/Knowledge Reviews/Quizzes exams). So my point is Objective should be a higher element ( should not be nested in Exercise ) Module can be named anything on the top level. For example Chapter is what I use for Modules currently. By saying Module I was not trying to ask for addition of a new element. I just want Objective to be a higher element not stuck within the exercise based on my understanding of Performance Based Learning Hope I made myself clear this time Thanks -- Togan Muftuoglu
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
At 15:45 16/10/2002, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: * Norman Walsh; [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 16 Oct, 2002 wrote: I'm personally quite unhappy with this proposal as it's written. It me too with what I see below :-) adds five fairly general sounding element names (setup, scenario, task, objective, and solution) in a fairly narrow context. Experience suggests that this is too specific; it will work for some people, but it will spawn frequent requests for more flexibility and new special-purpose elements. Objective in my opionion is a higher level element. module moduleinfo title/title objective orderedlist listitem /listitem listitem /listitem /orderedlist /moduleinfo . exercise exerciseinfo.../exerciseinfo exercisesectiontitleSetup/title... exercisesectiontitleScenario/title... exercisesectiontitleTask/title exercisesectiontitleSolution/title /exercise /module How this sound to you ? Agree with Norm about exercisesection being quite a mouthful, Either his generic section, or is there a policy on abbreviating? exsection Too short? exersection then? regards Davep -- Togan Muftuoglu
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
At 21:18 11/10/2002, Joachim Ziegler wrote: An exercise consists of a problem and eventually its solution(s). In a course, when it comes to an exercise, I might say Write a program that outputs HELLO WORLD. There is no question/answer involved here. If I were a student, I'd interpret that as: questionGenerate a program. /question You may not call it a question, I assure you 99% of students would take it as exactly that. I'm sure the linguists have a name for such as this. But a problem may well consist of finding the answer to a given question. (No matter how its phrases :-) Regards DaveP.
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario question.../question answer.../answer /exercise ... Therefore questions and answers should be allowed to appear in problem and solution, respectively. An answer should only be allowed when the problem has had a question. Unfortunately, this dependency is not context-free and therefore not expressible in a DTD. Sure. Assuming that a question must actually be a question and answer is actually an answer to that question (qandaset can do that job). Perhaps we should think of these tags at a higher level. ie. question contains the objective of the exercise - which could be a question or it could be a task - whichever way question is interpreted, answer would contain the solution. Maybe it's as easy as saying the tag names should be objective and solution? Actually, thinking about it, qandaset wouldn't work as you'd need it's question and answer elements seperated... I don't like this approach, it's too rigid. Another complication is that an exercise may be more than one objective. Subsequent objectives might rely on the success of the previous objective. ie. 1. Write a program that outputs Hello World 2. Modify the program to make Hello blue and World red 3. Make the red World flash Perhaps an element structure similar to qandaset (called task here) could be used to create: exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario task objective.../objective solution.../solution /task task objective.../objective solution.../solution /task ... /exercise Some method of controlling Stylesheets would be required to enable authors to display solutions or not depending on the documentation required. For example, a Student version of the document might not contain solutions whereas the Tutor version of the document would contain everything. Mart
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
Am Samstag, 12. Oktober 2002 12:13 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario task objective.../objective solution.../solution /task task objective.../objective solution.../solution /task ... /exercise This structure makes complete sense to me. The term task is much better than problem. In an objective you can also say Answer the following questions and than just use an OrderedList. And so you can do in the corresponding solution. Some method of controlling Stylesheets would be required to enable authors to display solutions or not depending on the documentation required. For example, a Student version of the document might not contain solutions whereas the Tutor version of the document would contain everything. That would be really great! Joachim
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
* Joachim Ziegler; [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 12 Oct, 2002 wrote: This structure makes complete sense to me. The term task is much better than problem. In an objective you can also say Answer the following questions and than just use an OrderedList. And so you can do in the corresponding solution. I would not use objective Answer the following questions/objective as this is conduct what do you want the student/reader to do/behave objective is a reacheable goal and it should be somewhere in *_info tag. -- Togan Muftuoglu
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
Am Freitag, 11. Oktober 2002 17:25 schrieb Stephan Wiesner: exercises with the same solution. I then developed a style sheet to create documents with the exercises displayed in the text flow and the solutions at the end (both linked), or not at all, depending on the purpose. This is exactly what is needed in a class! 1) In the handout you give to your pupils at the beginning of a course, the solutions have not to be included because otherwise the pupils will peek at it and are prevented from making their own thoughts. 2) But as the teacher, you need a document including the solutions just after the exercises they belong to. (You, of course, want to peek.) 3) At the end of the course, the pupils should be handed a copy of all solutions to all exercises. 4) If you decide to publish your course as a book, you will want to include the solutions in an appendix at the end. Joachim
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
I think I like the idea of containment better than ID/IDREF for associating exercises and solutions. Would this work? exercise question.../question answer.../answer /exercise I tend to agree. Such a structure would be useful to me too. Perhaps these might be useful? (or something similar)... exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario question.../question answer.../answer /exercise The effect of setup/ scenario/ could be built manually using bridgehead/ para/ etc. if such elements were allowed directly in exercise which I think would help fend off the recent list comments regarding bloat... Mart
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11 Oct, 2002 wrote: I tend to agree. Such a structure would be useful to me too. So far yes Perhaps these might be useful? (or something similar)... Yes but every lesson (call it module/section whatever) should also have performance requirements (objectives). The way I am thinking is you have objective (perfomance requirement) which is explained in the following paragraph(s) and then you have exercise ( Self assesment) which I agree with the format below Normally Performance Requirements are also questions (though you can pharse them as sentences as long as they are measurable and clear yet this was an old approach) ie. objective listitem paraWhat are the commonly used XSLT tools ?/para /listitem /objective parabla bla bla/para exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario question.../question answer.../answer /exercise My reasoning is if Docboook tags will be extended to include the above then the metodlogy of performance based learning should be included ( objectives) also Hope I did not make it an extra step -- Togan Muftuoglu
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
Am Freitag, 11. Oktober 2002 18:25 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Perhaps these might be useful? (or something similar)... exercise exerciseinfo...as in sectioninfo.../exerciseinfo setup...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, student data etc.../setup scenario.../scenario question.../question answer.../answer /exercise An exercise consists of a problem and eventually its solution(s). In a course, when it comes to an exercise, I might say Write a program that outputs HELLO WORLD. There is no question/answer involved here. But a problem may well consist of finding the answer to a given question. Even if the exercise consists of finding the answer to a question, I do not directly ask the question. Instead I say Find the answer to the following question before. Therefore questions and answers should be allowed to appear in problem and solution, respectively. An answer should only be allowed when the problem has had a question. Unfortunately, this dependency is not context-free and therefore not expressible in a DTD. Joachim
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Norman Walsh wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 / Joachim Ziegler [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: | Exercises occur much more frequently as a building block than descriptions of | destructors., I think. That's why I was wondering why there is no special tag | for it. In computer hardware and software documentation? Maybe. Maybe not. Exercises seem more like a teaching tool, an extension for tutorial documentation, perhaps. Still, the question has come up before. I wonder what else fits in that category? i've asked before what would be appropriate for a set of exercises as well. i'm using docbook to rewrite a bunch of courseware manuals, and there are frequent exercises every few pages for the students to test what they've (supposedly) just learned. so i'm interested in suggestions as well. rday
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
At 16:43 10/10/2002, Joachim Ziegler wrote: BTW, I've written a book about learning programming. It was coded in Latex (and in German). I'm currently evaluating DocBook as a basis for the second print of this book or for some other book about programming (mainly because I like the ability to output HTML). The more I learn, the less I'm convinced that the current state of the XSL technology will produce a high quality PDF output comparable to Latex. Am I right? If DocBook is not the right DTD for writing a book about programming (including exercises), what else in the XML world is? Should I stick with Latex? grin/ Sounds like a bribe/blackmail Joachim? I'd suggest stick with latex Or whatever else turns you on. DaveP.
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
Am Donnerstag, 10. Oktober 2002 18:50 schrieb Dave Pawson: If DocBook is not the right DTD for writing a book about programming (including exercises), what else in the XML world is? Should I stick with Latex? grin/ Sounds like a bribe/blackmail Joachim? I'd suggest stick with latex Or whatever else turns you on. DaveP. Sorry, maybe my english is not good enough and I'm confused with some words. What I meant was: Should I continue using Latex for high qualitiy output that will be printed and published. Joachim
Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
Robert P. J. Day wrote i've asked before what would be appropriate for a set of exercises as well. i'm using docbook to rewrite a bunch of courseware manuals, and there are frequent exercises every few pages for the students to test what they've (supposedly) just learned. so i'm interested in suggestions as well. rday For whatever it's worth, I marked up the exercises in http://greenbooks.theonering.net/ostadan/files/elvish.pdf as a qandaset, though I wasn't thinking ahead far enough to use role=exercises or the like, which would have been more specific. I do not see any problems with the semantics of qandaset in such a case; am I overlooking something? Note that the concrete presentation of my document places the exercise answers later, in an appendix.
