Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-15 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Peter,

> https://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi-tutorials/17789160-backing-up-and-restoring-your-raspberry-pis-sd-card
...
> To restore, I unmounted the new card after inserting, and
>
> /sudo dd bs=4M if=./card4backup.img of=/dev/mmcblk0/
...
> So Now, Is it my USB-SD card device or something to do with Etcher,
> or?

It's not Etcher because you followed my dd-and-sync instructions,
effectively identical to those from thepihut above if you also did their
instruction to sync, and you got read EIO errors: twice at two different
places.

To narrow down what bit of hardware is at fault, continue to read from
the now known-good card, writing to /dev/null, swapping bits of hardware
in the chain between CPU and card, including cables.  Each time, note
the chain's contents and the result.  A `success' doesn't mean the
chain's good;  you may have just got lucky given the EIOs aren't at
consistent locations, but it adds weight to your deliberations once
you've done a few different chains.  A `fail' is hopefully with the same
error as before;  the location would be worth noting to ensure it keeps
moving, i.e. it's not the card itself.

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-14 Thread PeterMerchant via dorset

Well, This one finally sorted from one point of view using the linux part of 
this article, on my ancient 32 bit laptop with Xubuntu.  The laptop has a SD 
card slot.

https://thepihut.com/blogs/raspberry-pi-tutorials/17789160-backing-up-and-restoring-your-raspberry-pis-sd-card

The SD card is identified as mmcblk0p1 and 0p2

to back it up I used the command string

/sudo dd if=/dev/mmcblk0 of=./card4backup.img/

To restore, I unmounted the new card after inserting, and

/sudo dd bs=4M if=./card4backup.img of=/dev/mmcblk0/

I have tested it and it boots directly to my fixed IP address, and  all parts 
of the filesystem that I have checked seem ok.

So Now, Is it my USB-SD card device or something to do with Etcher, or?

Cheers,

Peter

/
/

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-10 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Peter,

> Well, the card boots Ok in the R-Pi.

Yes, but booting and running Raspbian on the Pi will only be trying to
read a fraction of the card and that might either miss the dodgy parts,
or not be putting the card under stress, like reading it from start to
end, so it doesn't flake out.

How about trying those commands on the Pi that's booted from the card
but writing to /dev/null?  I'm assuming that would be replacing all the
hardware used both the previous times.

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-10 Thread PeterMerchant via dorset



No, almost 14 times as much was read before the EIO.  Assuming that's
the same card, I'd try reading it on hardware as different as possible
to what gave the two EIO errors.  Different port, card adapter, USB
cable, ideally PC.  If space for the image is a problem on other
machines, or just to make it quicker, you can `img=/dev/null' to discard
what's read.  If it still has problems when nothing else is in common
then it suggests the card's faulty?

Cheers, Ralph.


Well, the card boots Ok in the R-Pi. I am trying it on an extension USB cable 
from another port of the PC as previously we had suspected the front USB port  
(due to overuse?). Maybe it is the card reader - I have had it a long time.

I have dug out my ancient Laptop. It has an SD card slot, and a different 
version of Ubuntu.

I'll let you know later.

P.



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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-10 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Peter,

> > dd says 16580608 bytes copied, that being 126 whole blocks [of 128
> > KiB] plus one truncated [half] block.
>
> $ src=/dev/sdb
> $ img=${src//\//_}
> $ img=${img#_}.img
> $ devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
> $ echo copy $src to $img using multiple of $devbs bytes
> copy /dev/sdb to dev_sdb.img using multiple of 4096 bytes
> $ sudo dd if=$src bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$img
> [sudo] password for peterm:
> dd: error reading '/dev/sdb': Input/output error
> 1769+0 records in
> 1769+0 records out
> 231866368 bytes (232 MB, 221 MiB) copied, 19.0554 s, 12.2 MB/s
>
> Not the same size as previous try.

No, almost 14 times as much was read before the EIO.  Assuming that's
the same card, I'd try reading it on hardware as different as possible
to what gave the two EIO errors.  Different port, card adapter, USB
cable, ideally PC.  If space for the image is a problem on other
machines, or just to make it quicker, you can `img=/dev/null' to discard
what's read.  If it still has problems when nothing else is in common
then it suggests the card's faulty?

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet. - second try

2018-11-10 Thread PeterMerchant via dorset

On 09/11/2018 13:44, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

Hi Peter,


$ src=/dev/sdb
$ img=${src//\//_}
$ img=${img#_}.img
$  devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
$
$ sudo dd if=$src bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$img
[sudo] password for peterm:
dd: error reading '/dev/sdb': Input/output error
126+1 records in
126+1 records out
16580608 bytes (17 MB, 16 MiB) copied, 0.0128577 s, 1.3 GB/s
$

Is it  because sdb is mounted?

No, that wouldn't cause `Input/output error'.  read(2) says of EIO:

 It may also occur when there is a low-level I/O error while reading
 from a disk or tape.

It's either an error on the media, or in the chain of devices to get to
that media, e.g. USB hubs, etc.  It's not corrupted bytes on the media
as they'd be read just fine.  dmesg(1) may have recorded something at
the time.  `dmesg -HPx' will show the time of day for searching.

dd says 16580608 bytes copied, that being 126 whole blocks plus one
truncated block.  The echo command I gave isn't pasted above, but
guessing $devbs is 4096 gives

 4096 * 32 = 131,072
 16,580,608 / 131,072 = 126.5

that matches the 126.  Half a 128 KiB input block was read after that.

Re-trying this would be interesting to see if the EIO occurs at the same
point.  If it doesn't then you've an intermittent problem, but still a
problem.

It's a bad idea to have any of the partitions on /dev/sdb mounted whilst
taking an image as the filesystems can be in an inconsistent state that
would need an fsck(8) to attempt to repair them in the copy that's made.
But it wouldn't cause the EIO above.

Cheers, Ralph.


peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$ src=/dev/sdb
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$ img=${src//\//_}
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$ img=${img#_}.img
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$ devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$  echo copy $src to $img 
using multiple of $devbs bytes
copy /dev/sdb to dev_sdb.img using multiple of 4096 bytes
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$ sudo dd if=$src 
bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$img
[sudo] password for peterm:
dd: error reading '/dev/sdb': Input/output error
1769+0 records in
1769+0 records out
231866368 bytes (232 MB, 221 MiB) copied, 19.0554 s, 12.2 MB/s

peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi/Robot-7-Flask$ ls -al dev*

-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 231866368 Nov 10 13:53 dev_sdb.im

Not the same size as previous try.



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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-09 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Peter,

> $ src=/dev/sdb
> $ img=${src//\//_}
> $ img=${img#_}.img
> $  devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
> $
> $ sudo dd if=$src bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$img
> [sudo] password for peterm:
> dd: error reading '/dev/sdb': Input/output error
> 126+1 records in
> 126+1 records out
> 16580608 bytes (17 MB, 16 MiB) copied, 0.0128577 s, 1.3 GB/s
> $
>
> Is it  because sdb is mounted?

No, that wouldn't cause `Input/output error'.  read(2) says of EIO:

It may also occur when there is a low-level I/O error while reading
from a disk or tape.

It's either an error on the media, or in the chain of devices to get to
that media, e.g. USB hubs, etc.  It's not corrupted bytes on the media
as they'd be read just fine.  dmesg(1) may have recorded something at
the time.  `dmesg -HPx' will show the time of day for searching.

dd says 16580608 bytes copied, that being 126 whole blocks plus one
truncated block.  The echo command I gave isn't pasted above, but
guessing $devbs is 4096 gives

4096 * 32 = 131,072
16,580,608 / 131,072 = 126.5

that matches the 126.  Half a 128 KiB input block was read after that.

Re-trying this would be interesting to see if the EIO occurs at the same
point.  If it doesn't then you've an intermittent problem, but still a
problem.

It's a bad idea to have any of the partitions on /dev/sdb mounted whilst
taking an image as the filesystems can be in an inconsistent state that
would need an fsck(8) to attempt to repair them in the copy that's made.
But it wouldn't cause the EIO above.

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-09 Thread PeterMerchant via dorset

On 09/11/2018 12:17, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

Hi Peter,


I didn't know that you should do each partition individually.

fsck(8) stands for filesystem check and with each partition holding one
filesystem, it needs to run on each partition=filesystem.


I'm trying Deans suggestion to catch an image and clone it, but not
successfully so far.

Try these commands, pasting one at a time and checking for no errors.
I don't think I've messed up, but I haven't tried them so you should
have a read first.  In particular, you don't want dd's conv=noerror
suggested at
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dd#Cloning_an_entire_hard_disk
As normal, specifying the wrong device can trample your main hard disk
so `measure twice', and then again.

 src=/dev/sdb # Change as appropriate.  Disk, not partition.
 img=${src//\//_}
 img=${img#_}.img
 devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
 echo copy $src to $img using multiple of $devbs bytes

 sudo dd if=$src bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$img

 dest=/dev/sdc # Change as appropriate.  Disk, not partition.
 devbs=$(stat -fc %s $dest)
 echo copy $img to $dest using multiple of $devbs bytes

 sudo dd if=$img bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$dest

 sync # Vital.  Don't remove media until it's finished.

Cheers, Ralph.


Result:

peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$ src=/dev/sdb
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$ img=${src//\//_}
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$ img=${img#_}.img
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$  devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$ sudo dd if=$src bs=$((devbs * 32)) 
of=$img
[sudo] password for peterm:
dd: error reading '/dev/sdb': Input/output error
126+1 records in
126+1 records out
16580608 bytes (17 MB, 16 MiB) copied, 0.0128577 s, 1.3 GB/s
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$


Is it  because sdb is mounted?

peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$ sudo fdisk -l
Disk /dev/sda: 465.8 GiB, 500107862016 bytes, 976773168 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x80d1abcd

Device Boot Start   End   Sectors   Size Id Type
/dev/sda1  * 2048 156250111 156248064  74.5G 83 Linux
/dev/sda2   156252158 976771071 820518914 391.3G  5 Extended
/dev/sda5   156252160 167968767  11716608   5.6G 82 Linux swap / Solaris
/dev/sda6   167970816 976771071 808800256 385.7G 83 Linux

Disk /dev/sdb: 7.2 GiB, 7744782336 bytes, 15126528 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x3f7114e6

Device Boot Start  End  Sectors  Size Id Type
/dev/sdb1    8192    97889    89698 43.8M  c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
/dev/sdb2   98304 15126527 15028224  7.2G 83 Linux
peterm@peterm-MBB-34204H:~/Raspberry-Pi$

just tried this, and it failed too.

http://www.aoakley.com/articles/2015-10-09-resizing-sd-images.php

Going to test the card ( this is my 'master') and see if it still works.

Cheers,

Peter


Thanks Peter


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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-09 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Peter,

> I didn't know that you should do each partition individually.

fsck(8) stands for filesystem check and with each partition holding one
filesystem, it needs to run on each partition=filesystem.

> I'm trying Deans suggestion to catch an image and clone it, but not
> successfully so far.

Try these commands, pasting one at a time and checking for no errors.
I don't think I've messed up, but I haven't tried them so you should
have a read first.  In particular, you don't want dd's conv=noerror
suggested at
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dd#Cloning_an_entire_hard_disk
As normal, specifying the wrong device can trample your main hard disk
so `measure twice', and then again.

src=/dev/sdb # Change as appropriate.  Disk, not partition.
img=${src//\//_}
img=${img#_}.img
devbs=$(stat -fc %s $src)
echo copy $src to $img using multiple of $devbs bytes

sudo dd if=$src bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$img

dest=/dev/sdc # Change as appropriate.  Disk, not partition.
devbs=$(stat -fc %s $dest)
echo copy $img to $dest using multiple of $devbs bytes

sudo dd if=$img bs=$((devbs * 32)) of=$dest

sync # Vital.  Don't remove media until it's finished.

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-09 Thread PeterMerchant via dorset



Apparently the cure for this is to fsck it, but that refuses to work saying 
that I have a DOS partition - that's the boot partition.


The Raspberry Pi Foundation chose to make the SD Card file system FAT32 because 
it is a standard format used by a lot of different types of removable drives 
like flash drives and it can be read by just about every operating system. The 
other*partition*, the one with the data on it, is EXT3, the standard*Linux*file 
system format.

You should be able to fsck the /boot partition of the SD Card using fsck as 
follows.  On my system, I have one SSD drive and one spinning rust drive, so 
the SD Card pops up as sdc with sdc1 being the FAT32 partition called /boot and 
sdc2 being the ext3 partion containing /.  First the ext3 partition:

terry@OptiPlex:~$ sudo fsck /dev/sdc2
fsck from util-linux 2.32
e2fsck 1.44.4 (18-Aug-2018)
/dev/sdc2: clean, 161128/446208 files, 1430961/1817600 blocks


On this Kubuntu 18.10 desktop, fsck invoked e2fsk to do the job.

Then the FAT32 partition.

terry@OptiPlex:~$ sudo fsck /dev/sdc1
fsck from util-linux 2.32
fsck.fat 4.1 (2017-01-24)
/dev/sdc1: 121 files, 2663/8057 clusters

This time, fsck invoked fsck.fat.


Thanks Terry,

I didn't know that you should do each partition individually.

The sdb1  partition gave me a 'dirty flag set' message and the sdb2 one had 
lots of errors that I let it clean.

Now it boots to the fixed IP address, and then crashes.


I'm trying Deans suggestion to catch an image and clone it, but not 
successfully so far.

Cheers.

Peter





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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-08 Thread Terry Coles


On 07/11/2018 19:28, PeterMerchant via dorset wrote:
In discussing how I could duplicate my image for my raspberry Pi, 
Terry said that he had a script for WMT. I found that I could create 
an image with dd from my 'good' uSD card, and then use etcher to put 
it on a new card, albeit of a different size.
It wasn't a script as such; it was including in the Installation Manuals 
that I wrote for the WMT Railway Lighting, Webserver and Minster Bells 
systems.  I simply detailed how to use dd to copy an SD Card and then 
write the resulting image to another card.  The info is readily 
available on the web.


Apparently the cure for this is to fsck it, but that refuses to work 
saying that I have a DOS partition - that's the boot partition.


The Raspberry Pi Foundation chose to make the SD Card file system FAT32 
because it is a standard format used by a lot of different types of 
removable drives like flash drives and it can be read by just about 
every operating system. The other*partition*, the one with the data on 
it, is EXT3, the standard*Linux*file system format.


You should be able to fsck the /boot partition of the SD Card using fsck 
as follows.  On my system, I have one SSD drive and one spinning rust 
drive, so the SD Card pops up as sdc with sdc1 being the FAT32 partition 
called /boot and sdc2 being the ext3 partion containing /.  First the 
ext3 partition:


terry@OptiPlex:~$ sudo fsck /dev/sdc2
fsck from util-linux 2.32
e2fsck 1.44.4 (18-Aug-2018)
/dev/sdc2: clean, 161128/446208 files, 1430961/1817600 blocks


On this Kubuntu 18.10 desktop, fsck invoked e2fsk to do the job.

Then the FAT32 partition.

terry@OptiPlex:~$ sudo fsck /dev/sdc1
fsck from util-linux 2.32
fsck.fat 4.1 (2017-01-24)
/dev/sdc1: 121 files, 2663/8057 clusters

This time, fsck invoked fsck.fat.

--


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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-08 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Peter,

> I found that I could create an image with dd from my 'good' uSD card,
> and then use etcher to put it on a new card, albeit of a different
> size.

A disk image, i.e. what dd(1) on /dev/sdc creates, has details about the
location of partitions, etc., within it.  This means you can write it to
the start of another disk that's at least as big and it should work
fine.  One thing to look out for if both disks end up connected at once
is the various unique IDs that were made up for the original disk are
now no longer unique.

> pi@raspberrypi:~ $ ls
> ls: cannot access 'rc-car': Structure needs cleaning
>
> Apparently the cure for this is to fsck it, but that refuses to work
> saying that I have a DOS partition - that's the boot partition.

fsck(8) needs to be told the partition to check, e.g. /dev/sdc2.

> On the first try I did try gparted and got an error in expanding the
> data partition.

An error that suggests it left broken bits behind?  It might be easier
to dd again from the good card to an image file, and then write that
anew to the second card, skipping the gparted stage until you are happy
it's working fine.

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-08 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi,

Clive wrote:
> I did not know you could 'slide' a partition, it worked well (thanks
> Tim).

I suspect Tim was right in that we both thought gparted wouldn't slide a
partition so its new position overlapped its original one.  It's
perfectly doable, of course, just as memmove(3) does it for memory, but
I suspect gparted doesn't want to leave you with no coherent partition
if something goes wrong.

> I needed to make space after the first partition (File System) to
> enable doubling the size, as it was 90% full!  Four partitions on
> disk, System, Home, Space and a small DOS. Actions were: Delete
> 'Space' to leave an unallocated space, slide 'Home' into some of that
> free area, extend 'System' to double it's size.  This was all done
> from a live disk and Gparted.

So what we did to workaround the overlap problem was remove the need to
overlap by first shrinking the /home partition because it was luckily
just under 50% full.  Here's the stages, with `#' being used space, and
`_' being empty.

 1  root###_ home#___ unused backups###
 2  root###_ home#___backups###
 3  root###_ home#_  backups###
 4  root###_  home#_ backups###
 5  root###_  home#_ backups###
 6  root###__ home#_ backups###

If gparted allowed overlapping slides, it could have been one fewer
steps.

 1  root###_ home#___ unused backups###
 2  root###_ home#___backups###
 3  root###_  home#___   backups###
 4  root###_  home#_ backups###
 5  root###__ home#_ backups###

> Moving Home twice took the most time, over 25 mins each time; allowing
> for cups of tea!

That sounds quite quick to me given it's spinning rust.  :-)  Probably
helps /home was shrunk first.

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-08 Thread Tim Waugh
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 08:51, C Wills  wrote:

> I did not know you could 'slide' a partition, it worked well (thanks Tim).
>

I think I said I thought gparted couldn't do it, based on my (outdated)
knowledge of parted. But hey, I'll take it!

Tim.
*/
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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-07 Thread Dean Ramsden

On 07/11/2018 19:28, PeterMerchant via dorset wrote:

On 07/11/2018 12:55, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

Hi,

We were the only ones in the bar initially, and when others did arrive
the TV still stayed silent.  The new venue seems to be working well.
Terry's membership fee to Bournemouth Electric has been covered by the
£1 collections and they're starting towards another fee to cover his
absence.

In discussing how I could duplicate my image for my raspberry Pi, 
Terry said that he had a script for WMT. I found that I could create 
an image with dd from my 'good' uSD card, and then use etcher to put 
it on a new card, albeit of a different size.


It fires up OK, first time it didn't [get a static IP] but after that 
it did, but after I have ssh'd into it I get this error:


pi@raspberrypi:~ $ ls
ls: cannot access 'rc-car': Structure needs cleaning

Apparently the cure for this is to fsck it, but that refuses to work 
saying that I have a DOS partition - that's the boot partition.


Have I done something wrong? I have not tried to expand the 
partitions. I was able to run raspi-config, but I didn't try anything.


On   the first try I did try gparted and got an error in expanding the 
data partition.



Gparted was another topic for discussion in our little corner.

Cheers,

Peter M.



I have used the following several times to create/restore images of SD 
cards and drives without a problem.


To create the image:

dd if=/dev/sd? conv=sync,noerror bs=64K | gzip -c  >//path/to/backup.img.gz /To 
write the image:
gunzip -c//path/to/backup.img.gz/  | dd of=/dev/sd?

Taken from the Arch Wiki page on Disk Cloning: 
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dd#Disk_cloning_and_restore

Cheers,
Dean
//

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Re: [Dorset] Links from 2018-11-06's Pub Meet.

2018-11-07 Thread PeterMerchant via dorset

On 07/11/2018 12:55, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

Hi,

We were the only ones in the bar initially, and when others did arrive
the TV still stayed silent.  The new venue seems to be working well.
Terry's membership fee to Bournemouth Electric has been covered by the
£1 collections and they're starting towards another fee to cover his
absence.


In discussing how I could duplicate my image for my raspberry Pi, Terry said 
that he had a script for WMT. I found that I could create an image with dd from 
my 'good' uSD card, and then use etcher to put it on a new card, albeit of a 
different size.

It fires up OK, first time it didn't [get a static IP] but after that it did, 
but after I have ssh'd into it I get this error:

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ ls
ls: cannot access 'rc-car': Structure needs cleaning

Apparently the cure for this is to fsck it, but that refuses to work saying 
that I have a DOS partition - that's the boot partition.

Have I done something wrong? I have not tried to expand the partitions. I was 
able to run raspi-config, but I didn't try anything.

On   the first try I did try gparted and got an error in expanding the data 
partition.


Gparted was another topic for discussion in our little corner.

Cheers,

Peter M.


--
 Next meeting at *new* venue:  Bournemouth, Tuesday, 2018-12-04 20:00
 Check if you're replying to the list or the author
 Meetings, mailing list, IRC, ...  http://dorset.lug.org.uk/
 New thread, don't hijack:  mailto:dorset@mailman.lug.org.uk