Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
David Chris Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- A muffin fan on top, works so much better, you should really try to figure out how to keep the rig to the side of the supply/speaker. I use the rubber feet that you normally use to elevate the rig...the kind with the little bolt in them. These work great, or, you can use stick on feet. Then, on the top fan holes, fabricate a metal angle to either attach to one hole or bridge two. Paint black and attache to the fan near the contact side. Drill a hole for a mini switch and then attach the lead from a surplus wall wart of the proper voltage or even say 9 volts works well. Try a couple different ones to see which makes the fan blow quiet and efficient. Plug it in and there you go. Now you can switch it on or off as you need. If you'd like a pic, let me know. I've done then a couple different ways. I've found that to work the best, you position the fan in about the middle rear of the top, so that it pulls up and out over the pa cage and also pulls air from the rest of the rig. A better approach is to use two fans for a super cool TR4, but I find one works fine. Good luck David Wd9cmd - Original Message - From: Dennis Monticelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location Dennis Monticelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I strongly endorse pulling the hot air out vs pushing. Garey hit it on the head when he spoke about the illusion of fan exit air not being as much as exit air: It is just that the exit air is directed into a smaller cross-sectional area. If you are just trying to enhance the existing convective air flow a little bit, then placing a fan over the top is easy and best. For example, I use a 12V muffin fan on reduced voltage sitting over the right rear corner of the R4-B on little fubber feet. That corner is where the power transformer and output tube sits so the heat buildup is greatest there. You can't even hear it run yet the R4-B runs considerable cooler. But if you're specifically trying to cool down a set of finals (vs just enhance existing convection) and are willing to run the fan at full voltage, then sticking the fan on the rear of the cage (where the obstructions are fewer) makes more sense. A fan at full voltage near the tubes is going to draw the heat out effectively whether it's allow to do so vertically or horizontally. Your rig is going to thank you for this. A commonly used acceleration factor in the electronics industry is a halving of circuit life for every 10 deg C rise. That's a real rough number but it gives you an idea of the importanance of good thermal management. Denny AE6C On 9/1/07, Gary Poland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Poland [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have installed fans on many of Drakes as well as on my KWM-2. I have always installed them in s:ch a way as to pull cooler ambient air through the chassis and out the back. Regardless of the way you choose to do it, the proof is in the pudding, mine have stayed much cooler. 73, Gary W8PU http://home.cinci.rr.com/w8pu -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net -- -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net -- -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Leigh - Drakemods was originally written by Wayne Montague, VE3EFJ back in the late 90's. I don't know Tom, perhaps he edited some of the TR-4 information? Anyway, the fan orientation was one of the few disagreements that Wayne and I had! A typical fan pushes air harder than it pulls, even though the volume is equal. So many think that there is MORE air being pushed. The function of a fan in a piece of equipment that is _designed to be convection cooled_ is to get the heated air as far away as possible, not to force that air to flow throughout the chassis! The Drake transmitters/transceivers are obviously convection cooled, since no fan is provided from the factory. The choice between top and rear mounting of the fan is a mixed bag. Natural convection is provided by the fact that heated air rises, so the fan facing up and blowing up is the natural choice. That way works OK, but the air has to be pulled through TWO, non-aligned, sets of perforations, the cage top and the cabinet top. Any time air is forced to flow through holes, turbulence results and air flow is decreased. On the other hand, a fan mounted to the rear wall of the cage only has to move air through ONE set of perfs, and I believe is more efficient. Either way is a BIG help in reducing heat. The vast majority of the heat dissipated in the TR-4 is from the final cage, so getting that heat out and away is most important. The power resistors and other tubes in the remainder of the cabinet can be adequately cooled by convection, aided slightly by a small amount of air drawn in through strategically placed holes to replace the air pulled out by the fan. Again, you don't need a wind tunnel (noisy) fan. Some fans are noisier than others, depending upon blade and venturi shape. As usual, the more air volume / pressure, the noisier. A 120V AC fan can be slowed by inserting a film capacitor in series with the AC power, a DC fan slowed just by reducing the voltage supply. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B C-Line Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote: Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Thanks Garey and Tom and others who responded.! I want to get the fan thing right before I make the support. Tom, you might need to change the hint on your site about the fan. That's where I was following: http://www.zerobeat.net/drakelist/drakemod/drmod92.htm which says: The only place to mount a fan is on the back of the final cageOrient the fan to blow in. Originally I had the fan on top pulling air out, but then I changed it to behind pushing air in. It seems to me that hot air ought to exit the top, since heat rises. Is pulling hot air out the back the right thing? If so, I'll do it. Right now I have the fan, which is a 110VAC muffin fan, just sitting right up against the rig. If I have it pull air out, I'm going to definitely have to attach it to the rig to make sure the air flows from the rig and not just from the surroundings. But I will still make it externally powered, I think. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU Garey Barrell wrote: Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Leigh - First, you need to turn your fan around. Let it blow the air AWAY from the final cage instead of forcing all that hot air into the rest of the transceiver. The speaker with power supply is pretty heavy to sit on top of the TR-4 case. Best would be a U-shaped bridge to fit over the transceiver with a little clearance on either side. Leave at least an inch or so above the TR-4, more if possible, between the top of the cabinet and the bottom of the shelf. Again, with the fan blowing OUT you really only need clearance to allow air to be pulled in the sides. Best if the fan is mounted right on the back of the PA cage, the perforations can be lined up with fan mounting holes. Mine are only fastened at the top, with small rubber feet in the bottom holes to prevent vibration. A 3 muffin or computer fan works fine, you don't need a LOT of air, just something to force that hot air AWAY from the PA. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B C-Line Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote: Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have a TR-4C and MS-4 and they've always been side-by-side, ever since my father upgraded from the TR3. My shack doesn't have as much room as his did (nor does his now -- he just has a K1!) and I'm looking at some way to arrange
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Gary Poland [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have installed fans on many of Drakes as well as on my KWM-2. I have always installed them in such a way as to pull cooler ambient air through the chassis and out the back. Regardless of the way you choose to do it, the proof is in the pudding, mine have stayed much cooler. 73, Gary W8PU http://home.cinci.rr.com/w8pu -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Dennis Monticelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I strongly endorse pulling the hot air out vs pushing. Garey hit it on the head when he spoke about the illusion of fan exit air not being as much as exit air: It is just that the exit air is directed into a smaller cross-sectional area. If you are just trying to enhance the existing convective air flow a little bit, then placing a fan over the top is easy and best. For example, I use a 12V muffin fan on reduced voltage sitting over the right rear corner of the R4-B on little fubber feet. That corner is where the power transformer and output tube sits so the heat buildup is greatest there. You can't even hear it run yet the R4-B runs considerable cooler. But if you're specifically trying to cool down a set of finals (vs just enhance existing convection) and are willing to run the fan at full voltage, then sticking the fan on the rear of the cage (where the obstructions are fewer) makes more sense. A fan at full voltage near the tubes is going to draw the heat out effectively whether it's allow to do so vertically or horizontally. Your rig is going to thank you for this. A commonly used acceleration factor in the electronics industry is a halving of circuit life for every 10 deg C rise. That's a real rough number but it gives you an idea of the importanance of good thermal management. Denny AE6C On 9/1/07, Gary Poland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Poland [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have installed fans on many of Drakes as well as on my KWM-2. I have always installed them in s:ch a way as to pull cooler ambient air through the chassis and out the back. Regardless of the way you choose to do it, the proof is in the pudding, mine have stayed much cooler. 73, Gary W8PU http://home.cinci.rr.com/w8pu -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net -- -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:04:53 -0700, Dennis Monticelli wrote: A commonly used acceleration factor in the electronics industry is a halving of circuit life for every 10 deg C rise. That's a real rough number but it gives you an idea of the importanance of good thermal management. Quoted from http://www.pcpower.com/technology/optemps/ : The life of an electronic device is directly related to its operating temperature. Each 10øC (18øF) temperature rise reduces component life by 50%*. Conversely, each 10øC (18øF) temperature reduction increases component life by 100%. Therefore, it is recommended that computer components be kept as cool as possible (within an acceptable noise level) for maximum reliability, longevity, and return on investment. * Based on the Arrhenius equation, which says that time to failure is a function of e^-Ea/kT where Ea = activation energy of the failure mechanism being accelerated, k = Boltzmann's constant, and T = absolute temperature -- Jim Shorney --.--Put complaints in this box jshorney (at) inebraska.com Ham Radio NU0C Lincoln, NE, USA EN10ps http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney/ -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Dennis Monticelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Thanks for providing the background, Jim. The activation energy, Ea, is determined empirically for each component type (or material type in the case of certain other industries). Usually the component is run at elevated temp (beyond max operating limits) until failure occurs so that Ea can be extracted mathematically. 10 deg C for a halving of life works well for semiconductor devices (we use it at work with a little windage here and there) and it is close enough for most passives to be a general rule of thumb in electronics. On 9/1/07, Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:04:53 -0700, Dennis Monticelli wrote: A commonly used acceleration factor in the electronics industry is a halving of circuit life for every 10 deg C rise. That's a real rough number but it gives you an idea of the importanance of good thermal management. Quoted from http://www.pcpower.com/technology/optemps/ : The life of an electronic device is directly related to its operating temperature. Each 10øC (18øF) temperature rise reduces component life by 50%*. Conversely, each 10øC (18øF) temperature reduction increases component life by 100%. Therefore, it is recommended that computer components be kept as cool as possible (within an acceptable noise level) for maximum reliability, longevity, and return on investment. * Based on the Arrhenius equation, which says that time to failure is a function of e^-Ea/kT where Ea = activation energy of the failure mechanism being accelerated, k = Boltzmann's constant, and T = absolute temperature -- Jim Shorney --.--Put complaints in this box jshorney (at) inebraska.com Ham Radio NU0C Lincoln, NE, USA EN10ps http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney/ -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net -- -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Thanks Garey and Tom and others who responded.! I want to get the fan thing right before I make the support. Tom, you might need to change the hint on your site about the fan. That's where I was following: http://www.zerobeat.net/drakelist/drakemod/drmod92.htm which says: The only place to mount a fan is on the back of the final cageOrient the fan to blow in. Originally I had the fan on top pulling air out, but then I changed it to behind pushing air in. It seems to me that hot air ought to exit the top, since heat rises. Is pulling hot air out the back the right thing? If so, I'll do it. Right now I have the fan, which is a 110VAC muffin fan, just sitting right up against the rig. If I have it pull air out, I'm going to definitely have to attach it to the rig to make sure the air flows from the rig and not just from the surroundings. But I will still make it externally powered, I think. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU Garey Barrell wrote: Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Leigh - First, you need to turn your fan around. Let it blow the air AWAY from the final cage instead of forcing all that hot air into the rest of the transceiver. The speaker with power supply is pretty heavy to sit on top of the TR-4 case. Best would be a U-shaped bridge to fit over the transceiver with a little clearance on either side. Leave at least an inch or so above the TR-4, more if possible, between the top of the cabinet and the bottom of the shelf. Again, with the fan blowing OUT you really only need clearance to allow air to be pulled in the sides. Best if the fan is mounted right on the back of the PA cage, the perforations can be lined up with fan mounting holes. Mine are only fastened at the top, with small rubber feet in the bottom holes to prevent vibration. A 3 muffin or computer fan works fine, you don't need a LOT of air, just something to force that hot air AWAY from the PA. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B C-Line Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote: Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have a TR-4C and MS-4 and they've always been side-by-side, ever since my father upgraded from the TR3. My shack doesn't have as much room as his did (nor does his now -- he just has a K1!) and I'm looking at some way to arrange them to take up less space. I've seen a few pictures of people with the MS-4 on top of the TR4 but that seems like it would invite heat problems. Is that the consensus? I do have a muffin fan behind the rig and final cage (just placed there, not attached) and blowing air in and the final area seems to stay cool, but the rest of the rig seems to stay quite warm. Does anybody have creative solutions in place for where to place the MS-4 and power supply when using a TR series? The MS-4 isn't as deep as the transceiver, or else I'd put it under. Has anybody built a shelf to put the MS-4 under the transceiver? Or any other creative solutions? 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net -- -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
[drakelist] MS-4 location
Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have a TR-4C and MS-4 and they've always been side-by-side, ever since my father upgraded from the TR3. My shack doesn't have as much room as his did (nor does his now -- he just has a K1!) and I'm looking at some way to arrange them to take up less space. I've seen a few pictures of people with the MS-4 on top of the TR4 but that seems like it would invite heat problems. Is that the consensus? I do have a muffin fan behind the rig and final cage (just placed there, not attached) and blowing air in and the final area seems to stay cool, but the rest of the rig seems to stay quite warm. Does anybody have creative solutions in place for where to place the MS-4 and power supply when using a TR series? The MS-4 isn't as deep as the transceiver, or else I'd put it under. Has anybody built a shelf to put the MS-4 under the transceiver? Or any other creative solutions? 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Thom LaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote: Has anybody built a shelf to put the MS-4 under the transceiver? Or any other creative solutions? I'd get a piece of wood as wide at the MS-4 and a tad bit longer than the transceiver...and then cut out a foot for rear of the board that supports the boardIf you're really a fus-budget, then you could paint the board to match the case coloror, use some rare, exotic wood and put on a nice hand-rubbed finish. 73 k3hrn Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:13:30 -0700, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote: I do have a muffin fan behind the rig and final cage (just placed there, not attached) and blowing air in and the final area seems to stay cool, but the rest of the rig seems to stay quite warm. I would mount the fan so that is sucks air out of the radio through the final cage. That would help keep the whole radio cooler. I like Thom's suggestion of the wooden platform. Great idea. 73 -Jim -- Ham Radio NU0C TR7/RV7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C, L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time! HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/ -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] MS-4 location
Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Leigh - First, you need to turn your fan around. Let it blow the air AWAY from the final cage instead of forcing all that hot air into the rest of the transceiver. The speaker with power supply is pretty heavy to sit on top of the TR-4 case. Best would be a U-shaped bridge to fit over the transceiver with a little clearance on either side. Leave at least an inch or so above the TR-4, more if possible, between the top of the cabinet and the bottom of the shelf. Again, with the fan blowing OUT you really only need clearance to allow air to be pulled in the sides. Best if the fan is mounted right on the back of the PA cage, the perforations can be lined up with fan mounting holes. Mine are only fastened at the top, with small rubber feet in the bottom holes to prevent vibration. A 3 muffin or computer fan works fine, you don't need a LOT of air, just something to force that hot air AWAY from the PA. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B C-Line Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote: Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- I have a TR-4C and MS-4 and they've always been side-by-side, ever since my father upgraded from the TR3. My shack doesn't have as much room as his did (nor does his now -- he just has a K1!) and I'm looking at some way to arrange them to take up less space. I've seen a few pictures of people with the MS-4 on top of the TR4 but that seems like it would invite heat problems. Is that the consensus? I do have a muffin fan behind the rig and final cage (just placed there, not attached) and blowing air in and the final area seems to stay cool, but the rest of the rig seems to stay quite warm. Does anybody have creative solutions in place for where to place the MS-4 and power supply when using a TR series? The MS-4 isn't as deep as the transceiver, or else I'd put it under. Has anybody built a shelf to put the MS-4 under the transceiver? Or any other creative solutions? 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU -- Submissions:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
