Re: [dwm] dwm's future
Thanks for all the valueable input so far in this thread. I think here are the action points: 1) I plan to separate the bar stuff code-wise into two portions -- the tag bar with tags and layout info, and the title/status bar, but things will stay as they are from a user perspective, it's just some code cleanup which allows replacing the tagbar and/or title/status bar with something else (or avoiding to compile it in) There might be possible pango/cairo implementations of this stuff, I plan to have a font API interface, something like libsfont which is used by dwm and dmenu to start with, and which depends on either Xlib or some more fancy sucking stuff optionally. 2) I need to investigate into the reparent stuff first, I really dislike going the reparent route, because each parent window consumes much more X resource memory (basically twice the buffer sizes as we have already if you use a reparenting WM -- this makes everything slower). I really think bug the authors of the broken apps to fix their apps that they do not assume a reparenting WM. So the action here is: let's make a list of all apps which are known to be broken and behaving strange with dwm first, that I can investigate. - Mathematica (Version?) - ... please provide input 3) I agree multihead has got some preference, I like the approach to assign certain tags to specific screens. Kind regards, Anselm
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:23:50 +0100 Anselm R Garbe garb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, I discussed several stuff on IRC recently but wanted to share my thoughts here. 1. One idea is getting rid of the dwm bar altogether and to print the dwm state to stdout when it changes, however after thinking carefully about it I conclude that having the bar build-in is definately a stayer. It's so much simpler than the hassle with an external bar, not worth it. So very unlikely. Yes, please please keep the bar. I really like it and that it works out of the box. 2. Another idea is to switch to another dependency for the rendering bit which could possibly be cairo. After all I'm nearly giving up the hope that X font handling will ever be fixed and work properly, so that relying on a pile of other crap seems to become a solution. cairo is a dependency for firefox and I guess that every dwm user uses firefox occasionally. And we might benefit from a little bit smoother looking dwm (same for dmenu of course and my ongoing st efforts). I think this idea is quite likely. I have no problem with how dwm looks now (except for unicode problems, but that is a font issue). I like the simpler more retro look. Do you mean to use cairo for rendering fonts or also the dmenu itself? Personally I would like to have one dwm as is, and one gdwm (or some better name) with more bells and whistles and dependencies. Or that one can patch cairo support if one want it. For older computers/netbooks (power saving) it is nice to still have a simple wm that is not dependent on MSLOC of libraries. For modern computers it could be nice with some better font handling I guess. I mean I have cairo installed on all my computers, but I don't have the development packages, so if I need that as well to compile dwm, then there will be a lot of extra Mbs. For my worksstation that is fine, but for a netbook with limited SSD... For me the great selling point of dwm is that it makes me more productive as I don't need to do any window moving/resizing etc... 3. A third idea for legacy support is, that I tend to add a compile-time option or a specific Rule extension that let's you set to reparent all clients or certain clients which are broken such as Mathematica or various Swing apps, though I'm not absolutely sure how likely that is. Somehow my inner feelings are against it, because it's not a dwm problem and those broken apps should be fixed. Not a problem for me now, so I don't know if this is needed. For me it is more important to have working patches to add pertag, bstack and perhaps fibonaccio (will test this when I change to dwm on my workstation).
Re: [dwm] [idea] mwm - minimal/minimun/monocle window manager
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:44:18 -0300 Leandro Chescotta leandro.chesco...@gmail.com wrote: Well, someone start this earlier, *Wra!thhttp://bbs.archlinux.org/profile.php?id=24472in archlinux forums * here http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=70902 hope the best to this project! :) actually it's name is Most Minimal Window Manager (MMWM) lol and it something in between dwm and antiwm, like antiwm with more features, like... Minimalism can be attractive, but it isn't productive. Don't see any need for derailing the dwm development to something more minimalistic. But I can recommend The C Programming Language http://www.amazon.co.uk/C-Programming-Language-2nd/dp/0131103628/ref=pd_sim_b_1 if you want to learn C programming. Best wishes Preben
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
Hi there ! 2009/4/27, Anselm R Garbe garb...@gmail.com: Thanks for all the valueable input so far in this thread. I think here are the action points: 1) I plan to separate the bar stuff code-wise into two portions -- the tag bar with tags and layout info, and the title/status bar, but things will stay as they are from a user perspective, it's just some code cleanup which allows replacing the tagbar and/or title/status bar with something else (or avoiding to compile it in) Nice idea. I ever thought dwm's status bar is to deep in the code. There might be possible pango/cairo implementations of this stuff, I plan to have a font API interface, something like libsfont which is used by dwm and dmenu to start with, and which depends on either Xlib or some more fancy sucking stuff optionally. I would prefer plain xlib, but otherwise, as you said, it really sucks for fonthandling. So, yea, it's ok for me :) 2) I need to investigate into the reparent stuff first, I really dislike going the reparent route, because each parent window consumes much more X resource memory (basically twice the buffer sizes as we have already if you use a reparenting WM -- this makes everything slower). I really think bug the authors of the broken apps to fix their apps that they do not assume a reparenting WM. So the action here is: let's make a list of all apps which are known to be broken and behaving strange with dwm first, that I can investigate. - Mathematica (Version?) - ... please provide input What about an compile time switch which turns reparenting on and off globally? I don't see any sense to differ between broken and not broken apps clientwise. This would add to much complexity. And I believe someone who uses Mathematica should not care about some KB of stuctures. Otherwise on an embedded device where one need every free kb, nobody would use these kinds of apps. 3) I agree multihead has got some preference, I like the approach to assign certain tags to specific screens. You already tried this between 4.7 and 4.8. That was the time I detached my branch, because there was just no sane way to implement it. I prefere the approach of dwm-gtx, because it's very simple and does not fuck up the tagging concept. Kind regards, Anselm -- http://gnuffy.chaotika.org - Real Community Distro
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
2009/4/27 Preben Randhol rand...@pvv.org: On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:11:03 +0100 Anselm R Garbe garb...@gmail.com wrote: So there are only three ways: - stick with what we got (don't care if some langs look ugly) - use pango and/or cairo or something like that - invest some effort into a new font rendering lib (seems to be a hard job, esp. if one asks for proper font support which can't be done by us) What about xft? Wasn't there a patch for 4.7 (can't find it anymore). I don't know much about the font systems. One option, though quite half hearted in my opinion. Kind regards, --Anselm
Re: [dwm] [idea] mwm - minimal/minimun/monocle window manager
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:11:50 +0200 Szabolcs Nagy nszabo...@gmail.com wrote: why would one post an url to a web shop when the book itself has more informative resource locators: an official website, publisher, author names, isbn number, common abbrev, wikipedia entry, google.. ? Because you can find all the info you want from the link and go to whatever bookshop you want and buy it. Besides you find reviews there. You even know how the cover of the book looks like. But here is the URL to wikipedia if you prefer that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language) Google sucks. Preben
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:10:47 +0100 Anselm R Garbe garb...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/27 Preben Randhol rand...@pvv.org: What about xft? Wasn't there a patch for 4.7 (can't find it anymore). I don't know much about the font systems. One option, though quite half hearted in my opinion. I found on the net that there is an pango patch also. Couldn't one just have pango support as an official supported patch? Then it would be easy to patch the dwm if one wants pango support in dwm and dmenu. I mean pertag, bstack etc... are patches I rather would see incorporated into dwm than pango, but I don't mind that they are not. Keep up the excellent work!
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:11:03 +0100 Anselm R Garbe garb...@gmail.com wrote: So there are only three ways: - stick with what we got (don't care if some langs look ugly) - use pango and/or cairo or something like that - invest some effort into a new font rendering lib (seems to be a hard job, esp. if one asks for proper font support which can't be done by us) What about xft? Wasn't there a patch for 4.7 (can't find it anymore). I don't know much about the font systems. Preben
Re: [dwm] [idea] mwm - minimal/minimun/monocle window manager
On 4/27/09, Preben Randhol rand...@pvv.org wrote: On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:44:18 -0300 Leandro Chescotta leandro.chesco...@gmail.com wrote: *Wra!thhttp://bbs.archlinux.org/profile.php?id=24472in archlinux forums But I can recommend The C Programming Language http://www.amazon.co.uk/C-Programming-Language-2nd/dp/0131103628/ref=pd_sim_b_1 is this a new trend that people reference improper sources and discuss topics in unrelated forums? if the information has a clear and obvious source then why look for it somewhere else.. why would one post ideas, questions,.. to some random web forum when there is a dedicated mailing list (and irc channel) for the given topic? why would one post an url to a web shop when the book itself has more informative resource locators: an official website, publisher, author names, isbn number, common abbrev, wikipedia entry, google.. ? maybe i shouldn't get annoyd by this..
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:49:55 -0500 Kurt H Maier karmaf...@gmail.com wrote: I keep hoping to see dwm go into a 'steady state' where the only patches are to maintain compatibility with latest x.org, etc., but instead every time it seems 'done' we shoot forward into crazy-ass ideas like requiring an extra 0.5 MB of libraries for a 2k SLOC program, just so people's firefox titles look better. well, what is the purpose of a stausbar? It is a minority of the worlds population that adheres to 7-bit ASCII. Instead of porting everything to pango, I suggest leaving it alone, and the affected users can turn the built-in bar off and use another status bar program. or that one just patch dwm for pango like one need to do for all other useful patches. As I can see from a patch I got the code won't change more than a few lines...
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:47:19AM +0200, Preben Randhol wrote: Personally I would like to have one dwm as is, and one gdwm (or some better name) with more bells and whistles and dependencies. http://wmii.suckless.org/ Or is Wmii dead in the water?
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:05:11PM +0200, Preben Randhol wrote: What about xft? Wasn't there a patch for 4.7 (can't find it anymore). I don't know much about the font systems. I've been using this patch for quite some time with no issues. If anyone wants to see the implementation for reference, it lives here: http://rootshell.be/~polachok/code/dwm-4.7-xft.diff
Re: [dwm] [idea] mwm - minimal/minimun/monocle window manager
But here is the URL to wikipedia if you prefer that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language) He probably means this page: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cbook/ But I guess his point was that you should have provided that standard information (copied from above web page): The C Programming Language, Second Edition by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie. Prentice Hall, Inc., 1988. ISBN 0-13-110362-8 (paperback), 0-13-110370-9 (hardback). Forums are a disease, but they are successful, because people are always glad about the neat, animated smiley's, there are proudly occupied moderators, and a lot of cool features for the administrator to play with. Mathml support, flash games and reading private messages comes to mind. These people definitely have too much time, and probably patience, and are thus more friendly to newbies. They almost always like what they are doing and seldom get upset about their new and only friends. Does that make sense?
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
* David E. Thiel l...@redundancy.redundancy.org [2009-04-25 13:27:51 -0701]: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 08:29:12PM +0200, Dusan wrote: Please keep bar, that's why dwm is great out of the box. Agreed. A window manager should be usable on its own, and have sensible defaults. Ability to customize is great, but it shouldn't be depended upon to make for a decent user experience. + 1 to keep the bar. Best wishes, Matthias
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:35:20AM +0100, Anselm R Garbe wrote: - Mathematica (Version?) 7 breaks on the help window - it doesn't get keyboard focus, mouse focus still works. First the layout gets applied to it, then the other windows move back below it. I'm pretty sure that 6 did not have this behaviour, but I can't check because I don't have the install CD anymore. The only other app I can remember at the moment would be netbeans, but that worked with the environment variable trick that I can't remember anymore ;)
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
I want to feed the mailing with some more words about this topic... I don't really care about the font rendering, because I just use title bar to see what's going on the window (like for large builds or browser's page titles, ..) And I dont really read contents in chineese or russian, so i'm happy with ascii. But I understant that there's people wanting to use truetype fonts for fixing those issues. If we just implement this stuff into separated .c or .h files, so everybody can still use the basic x11 stuff, or just use cairo/pango or..maybe someone would like to use it on w32 or osx, so, these guys will just have to implement this little backend, and keep all the dwm internals clean and portable for all the systems and backends (also for ncurses?). The problem here is that actually all the keybinding stuff depends on X, and there are other stuff that is pretty linked to X11, and if we want to drop this hard X11 binding we should try to split it up into a set of callbacks. I really like to click on the statusbar, so the code that it is currently there is more thatn enought to me. As somebody told in another other mail maybe we should focus on the Xinerama problem, which is probably an endless issue, or maybe we should rewrite X into a new protocol and set of libs in a more minimalistic way and if someone wants to run an Xbased app just use Xnest/Xephyr or just provide a way to run Xbased windows inside the new 'graphical server'. THis last point is probably the way to go, but obviously is a long time project but i just wanted to throw few ideas more. About the buggy apps, well.. i really dont have any problem with any application, and maybe this is because i mostly use few graphical applications, and all the ones I use are free software which gives me the possibility to fix any issue or report it. (blame on privative solutions) (mathematica, ...) For me the solution for using those broken apps is just to run a fullscreen nested X server in a tag and run the application inside with no window manager or with another one. I want to keep dwm simple, i think that all the dependencies should be optional and minimal, so we should probably think on the basic primitives to work on X and wrap them as function pointers in a single structure, and allowing compile- time-plugins to overwrite those pointers with cairo, w32 api or so. And please, keep the statusbar and the clickable stuff functional or at least optional for those who dont want to use it, but maybe we can think in a more extensible design for it, but exporting/importing window manager stuff between processes is something stupid if you just need few things and they can be managed from inside the window manager, for me having this feature inside keeps the things easier. --pancake Anselm R Garbe wrote: Thanks for all the valueable input so far in this thread. I think here are the action points: 1) I plan to separate the bar stuff code-wise into two portions -- the tag bar with tags and layout info, and the title/status bar, but things will stay as they are from a user perspective, it's just some code cleanup which allows replacing the tagbar and/or title/status bar with something else (or avoiding to compile it in) There might be possible pango/cairo implementations of this stuff, I plan to have a font API interface, something like libsfont which is used by dwm and dmenu to start with, and which depends on either Xlib or some more fancy sucking stuff optionally. 2) I need to investigate into the reparent stuff first, I really dislike going the reparent route, because each parent window consumes much more X resource memory (basically twice the buffer sizes as we have already if you use a reparenting WM -- this makes everything slower). I really think bug the authors of the broken apps to fix their apps that they do not assume a reparenting WM. So the action here is: let's make a list of all apps which are known to be broken and behaving strange with dwm first, that I can investigate. - Mathematica (Version?) - ... please provide input 3) I agree multihead has got some preference, I like the approach to assign certain tags to specific screens. Kind regards, Anselm
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:45 AM, Preben Ran well, what is the purpose of a stausbar? It is a minority of the worlds population that adheres to 7-bit ASCII. Which just makes it more mysterious that nobody has fixed xlib font rendering. or that one just patch dwm for pango like one need to do for all other useful patches. As I can see from a patch I got the code won't change more than a few lines... I hadn't thought of this, but I strongly support a patch like bstack or pertag. That way we can leave the core of dwm alone and people who require hacks and workarounds to display their language can apply them at compile-time. # Kurt H Maier
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:51:24 +0200 Martin Oppegaard mar...@deathaven.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:47:19AM +0200, Preben Randhol wrote: Personally I would like to have one dwm as is, and one gdwm (or some better name) with more bells and whistles and dependencies. http://wmii.suckless.org/ Or is Wmii dead in the water? Well actually I wan't thinking of wmii as it behaves differently from dwm.
Re: [dwm] [idea] mwm - minimal/minimun/monocle window manager
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:12:12 +0200 hiro 23h...@googlemail.com wrote: Forums are a disease, but they are successful, because people are always glad about the neat, animated smiley's, there are proudly occupied moderators, and a lot of cool features for the administrator to play with. Mathml support, flash games and reading private messages comes to mind. These people definitely have too much time, and probably patience, and are thus more friendly to newbies. They almost always like what they are doing and seldom get upset about their new and only friends. Does that make sense? Sorry, I don't get the relevance.
Re: [dwm] [idea] mwm - minimal/minimun/monocle window manager
I'm sorry, this was related to Szabolcs' comment: why would one post ideas, questions,.. to some random web forum when there is a dedicated mailing list (and irc channel) for the given topic? On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Preben Randhol rand...@pvv.org wrote: On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:12:12 +0200 hiro 23h...@googlemail.com wrote: Forums are a disease, but they are successful, because people are always glad about the neat, animated smiley's, there are proudly occupied moderators, and a lot of cool features for the administrator to play with. Mathml support, flash games and reading private messages comes to mind. These people definitely have too much time, and probably patience, and are thus more friendly to newbies. They almost always like what they are doing and seldom get upset about their new and only friends. Does that make sense? Sorry, I don't get the relevance.
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:35:20AM +0100, Anselm R Garbe wrote: Thanks for all the valueable input so far in this thread. I think here are the action points: 1) I plan to separate the bar stuff code-wise into two portions -- the tag bar with tags and layout info, and the title/status bar, but things will stay as they are from a user perspective, it's just some code cleanup which allows replacing the tagbar and/or title/status bar with something else (or avoiding to compile it in) There might be possible pango/cairo implementations of this stuff, I plan to have a font API interface, something like libsfont which is used by dwm and dmenu to start with, and which depends on either Xlib or some more fancy sucking stuff optionally. 2) I need to investigate into the reparent stuff first, I really dislike going the reparent route, because each parent window consumes much more X resource memory (basically twice the buffer sizes as we have already if you use a reparenting WM -- this makes everything slower). I really think bug the authors of the broken apps to fix their apps that they do not assume a reparenting WM. So the action here is: let's make a list of all apps which are known to be broken and behaving strange with dwm first, that I can investigate. - Mathematica (Version?) - ... please provide input That's mainly proprietary software. dwm shouldn't support that kind of software, but instead expose their bare brokenness to the user. Maybe users will realise then that proprietary software is not worth using, because you can't even fix trivial bugs like this. 3) I agree multihead has got some preference, I like the approach to assign certain tags to specific screens. Could you please briefly explain why you are opposed to XRandR. It seems pretty common and usable. Kind regards, Anselm Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 08:47:33PM +0200, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:35:20AM +0100, Anselm R Garbe wrote: That's mainly proprietary software. dwm shouldn't support that kind of software, but instead expose their bare brokenness to the user. Maybe users will realise then that proprietary software is not worth using, because you can't even fix trivial bugs like this. Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Regards, Matthias-Christian Regards, Valentin
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Matthias-Christian Ott o...@mirix.org wrote: Could you please briefly explain why you are opposed to XRandR. It seems pretty common and usable. Not only that, xinerama is going to be entirely supplanted by xrandr. Developing for xinerama is a dead end. On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Valentin a...@0au.de wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Perfect candidate for a different window manager, or at least a different window manager in a nested X display. $subject is broken, therefore we must bloat up dwm to work around it is bad reasoning, even if $subject is x11 font rendering or some expensive app my school is forcing on me # Kurt H Maier
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 08:50:49PM +0200, Valentin wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 08:47:33PM +0200, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:35:20AM +0100, Anselm R Garbe wrote: That's mainly proprietary software. dwm shouldn't support that kind of software, but instead expose their bare brokenness to the user. Maybe users will realise then that proprietary software is not worth using, because you can't even fix trivial bugs like this. Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. Regards, Matthias-Christian Regards, Valentin Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck...
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
Kurt H Maier dixit (2009-04-27, 13:54): $subject is broken, therefore we must bloat up dwm to work around it is bad reasoning, even if $subject is x11 font rendering or some expensive app my school is forcing on me The only difference is that you *have* to use X11 font rendering while you do not necessarily have to run above mentioned apps directly in dwm (yes, nested X server with or without a wm seems like a cool solution). So the above is a fallacy. And no, it's not only about displaying weird firefox window titles. There's also the status bar, tag names and such. Displaying unicode (which solution to settle on is another discussion) is not bloating but is realizing the basic fact that 7bit ASCII is too limited for a worldwide dwm audience. Best, -- [a] pgp0x1RweiKfd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:05:57PM -0700, Amit Uttamchandani wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck... Most teachers are morons. I tried to convince some of mine to switch to Free Software or accept non-Microsoft formats, such as PDF or PostScript, but they either refused to listen or thought Free Software is evil and accused me of using pirated software, etc. (of course I listed all four freedoms they have with Free Software and tried explain to them what Free Software licenses are about). The problem with them seems to be that they have been an educational authority for so long that they think they know everything better and don't have to listen. When I was supposed to hand in yet another Microsoft Word or Excel file (that's quite common), I tried to explain that to one of them, but She said: That's bad luck, search for someone who let's you use his computer! and walked away. Well, I could go on. However, morons don't justify the use or the introduction of fixes for this software. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
Don't be a bigot, it just makes you look like a moron too. Free Software is about choice, forcing people to use an app just because you use it is pretty stupid and annoying and just gives people a negative association with it. Let people make their own choices. Last I checked it was very easy to save as .xls or .doc, and its much less hassle for those less tech literate. Professors choose to use the software they want because they're comfortable with it, not to spite you. Jeremy On Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 09:38PM, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:05:57PM -0700, Amit Uttamchandani wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck... Most teachers are morons. I tried to convince some of mine to switch to Free Software or accept non-Microsoft formats, such as PDF or PostScript, but they either refused to listen or thought Free Software is evil and accused me of using pirated software, etc. (of course I listed all four freedoms they have with Free Software and tried explain to them what Free Software licenses are about). The problem with them seems to be that they have been an educational authority for so long that they think they know everything better and don't have to listen. When I was supposed to hand in yet another Microsoft Word or Excel file (that's quite common), I tried to explain that to one of them, but She said: That's bad luck, search for someone who let's you use his computer! and walked away. Well, I could go on. However, morons don't justify the use or the introduction of fixes for this software. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
[ pretty off topic ] Three days off-line and now ... *eek* ... 75 new messages. It was interesting to read all those opinions and comments. I think it was even fun, because I'm not directly affected ... not anymore. I already found what I was looking for, more than a year ago. dwm then was already good enough (with some personal modifications). Nonetheless, reading this list is great inspiration and motivation for staying on the suckless track. Now to say some words about the actual topic: Important is IMO to define a clear goal and to follow a straight path to this goal. This is not only for the competition with other WMs but also for keeping the software clear. My personal opinion is that dwm should try to stay small and accept to lose users to the ``fancy'' tiling WMs if this increases the internal clarity and integrity of dwm and the path of its development. But anyway, I don't care much anymore as I stopped with dwm 3.4. So, you may not care about my opinion -- I don't mind. Further more, I want to say, that there are more important things to focus on, instead of trying to improve (or dis-improve) dwm. `st' is the best example, of course. Wish you all a good sleep (if you're from Europe) or a good morning or a nice evening (if you're from somewhere else). meillo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
When I was in the university I had to use matlab. Proffessors told me that I can use the windows boxes in place, but for personal reasons (time and so) I proposed them to use the telnet interface and use it remotely. It happened that their license didn't allowed them to export the application via network. Which is IMHO a very stupid and privative limitation. At this point I decided to install octave on a remote netbsd box, add some fixes to the package and I develop all the tasks finding equivalences between the sintaxes. The last page of my work was an explanation of the reasons for using it. I just explain that I don't support software that limits my freedom and possibilities, and I also explain how incorrect is to teech people with privative tools. They accept my project but things didn't changed. On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Amit Uttamchandani atu13...@csun.edu wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck...
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 06:57:13PM +0200, Preben Randhol wrote: On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:51:24 +0200 Martin Oppegaard mar...@deathaven.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:47:19AM +0200, Preben Randhol wrote: Personally I would like to have one dwm as is, and one gdwm (or some better name) with more bells and whistles and dependencies. http://wmii.suckless.org/ Or is Wmii dead in the water? Well actually I wan't thinking of wmii as it behaves differently from dwm. I can't even remember how Wmii feels like anymore, after changing to Dwm less than a year ago.
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:05:36PM -0400, Jeremy Jay wrote: Don't be a bigot, it just makes you look like a moron too. Free Software Well, you are a moron if you get bad marks, because you didn't hand in your papers, because you refuse to use proprietary software: You don't change anything and just hurt yourself. I always found someone to typeset my texts or just printed them out. It worked in the majority of cases. is about choice, forcing people to use an app just because you use it is No, not because I use it, just because it's Free Software. That's the fact that matters. pretty stupid and annoying and just gives people a negative association with it. Let people make their own choices. Last I checked it was very They don't let their students choose either. easy to save as .xls or .doc, and its much less hassle for those less tech literate. Still you are using pragmatic arguments to invalidate my fundamental arguments. We'll never come to an agreement then. It's not about the ease of use, it's about the nature of the software itself. I would even use Free Software if it's harder to use and less powerful. In fact I do this on daily basis. I partially agree that this is hard to explain these kind of persons (not because they are to stupid or not skilled enough to understand this, but because they don't want to listen or understand it). Professors choose to use the software they want because they're comfortable with it, not to spite you. But its their duty to provide equal access and opportunity to their students. If they require their students to use proprietary software, don't fullfil that duty, despite the fact that proprietary software is a contradiction to education. Well, this discussion will lead is just more E-Mail traffic and wasted time, so I suggest to do everyone a favour and stop here. All relevant arguments have been mentioned and further discussion won't yield a result. Jeremy Regards, Matthias-Christian On Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 09:38PM, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:05:57PM -0700, Amit Uttamchandani wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck... Most teachers are morons. I tried to convince some of mine to switch to Free Software or accept non-Microsoft formats, such as PDF or PostScript, but they either refused to listen or thought Free Software is evil and accused me of using pirated software, etc. (of course I listed all four freedoms they have with Free Software and tried explain to them what Free Software licenses are about). The problem with them seems to be that they have been an educational authority for so long that they think they know everything better and don't have to listen. When I was supposed to hand in yet another Microsoft Word or Excel file (that's quite common), I tried to explain that to one of them, but She said: That's bad luck, search for someone who let's you use his computer! and walked away. Well, I could go on. However, morons don't justify the use or the introduction of fixes for this software. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:58:31PM +0200, pancake wrote: When I was in the university I had to use matlab. Proffessors told me that I can use the windows boxes in place, but for personal reasons (time and so) I proposed them to use the telnet interface and use it remotely. It happened that their license didn't allowed them to export the application via network. Which is IMHO a very stupid and privative limitation. At this point I decided to install octave on a remote netbsd box, add some fixes to the package and I develop all the tasks finding equivalences between the sintaxes. The last page of my work was an explanation of the reasons for using it. I just explain that I don't support software that limits my freedom and possibilities, and I also explain how incorrect is to teech people with privative tools. They accept my project but things didn't changed. At least you didn't loose your dignity, carried out your principles and proofed that Free Software is as powerful as an expensive proprietary software. Regards, Matthias-Christian On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Amit Uttamchandani atu13...@csun.edu wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck...
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
I thought you mentioned stopping in the email you sent before this one? (Or was that only applicble to other people?) On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Matthias-Christian Ott o...@mirix.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:58:31PM +0200, pancake wrote: When I was in the university I had to use matlab. Proffessors told me that I can use the windows boxes in place, but for personal reasons (time and so) I proposed them to use the telnet interface and use it remotely. It happened that their license didn't allowed them to export the application via network. Which is IMHO a very stupid and privative limitation. At this point I decided to install octave on a remote netbsd box, add some fixes to the package and I develop all the tasks finding equivalences between the sintaxes. The last page of my work was an explanation of the reasons for using it. I just explain that I don't support software that limits my freedom and possibilities, and I also explain how incorrect is to teech people with privative tools. They accept my project but things didn't changed. At least you didn't loose your dignity, carried out your principles and proofed that Free Software is as powerful as an expensive proprietary software. Regards, Matthias-Christian On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Amit Uttamchandani atu13...@csun.edu wrote: Except some of us don't have a choice and have to use this for their work or at uni... Well, what about GNU Octave? Mathematica seems to have become as much a disease as Fortran was in last decades. I once tried to explain to my professor if I could use Octave instead of Matlab but he wouldn't even hear of it...I even tried explaining that is compatible, etc., etc. but no luck... -- cheers, dave tweed__ computer vision reasearcher: david.tw...@gmail.com while having code so boring anyone can maintain it, use Python. -- attempted insult seen on slashdot
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
2009/4/27 Matthias-Christian Ott o...@mirix.org: At least you didn't loose your dignity, carried out your principles and proofed that Free Software is as powerful as an expensive proprietary software. But it is not always possible. I can give you a (quite long) list of software that doesn't have a free equivalent. Between other things, my work involves a lot of mechanical testing, and even if developing your own easy solution would be straightforward you have to use the nonsense 1gb of ram proprietary (and usually windows) application because it is the industry standard. The argument about free software is a non-end disucssion. The matter is: there are broken applications, do we want to use dwm to manage their windows? I would prefer keeping it as suckless as possible, as somebody else suggested. dwm makes a great job managing windows, it is not its job to fix font handling or work around broken applications. However, I liked the idea of a suckless font library, but it will have to suck a lot (i.e. include pango) to work perfectly with every language on earth. -- - yiyus || JGL .
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:54:35 +0200 markus schnalke mei...@marmaro.de wrote: Important is IMO to define a clear goal and to follow a straight path to this goal. This is not only for the competition with other WMs but also for keeping the software clear. Yes, I wanted at one point to try out xmonad, but when that entailed installing 64Mb worth of packages (ubuntu) I canceled the installed. One improvement I just remembered (unless I really have missed an option) would be to add invisible typing to dmenu. Useful if you want to type a password.
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 08:47:33PM +0200, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: That's mainly proprietary software. dwm shouldn't support that kind of software, but instead expose their bare brokenness to the user. Maybe users will realise then that proprietary software is not worth using, because you can't even fix trivial bugs like this. i wouldn't say no to supporting such software tbh, there are some commercial/propietry software where there is just has no opensource equivalent too that would give the same amount of productivity. it should be at least considered. some people have no choice but to use such programs. jimmy -- Sent from my Nokia mobile phone pgpCEgsd794Q8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:05:36PM -0400, Jeremy Jay wrote: Don't be a bigot, it just makes you look like a moron too. Free Software is about choice, forcing people to use an app just because you use it is pretty stupid and annoying and just gives people a negative association with it. Let people make their own choices. Last I checked it was very easy to save as .xls or .doc, and its much less hassle for those less tech literate. I agree with you on almost all. You don't have to make choice for others. But there is also the concept of mid-path, finding the solution who hasle the less both people. Most of the time you can easily make of doc or xls even if you have to export to a txt or csv and do a little formatinf but this is not always the case. There is no reason to refuse a pdf and ask for doc, in particular in academic world if you have mathematical contents in. I've tryed more than one time to use the Word and OpenOffice equation editor and it take very long time to write even a small formula, when it's almost to cost to write it in tex and compile to pdf. In this case it's almost impossible to convert to doc and pdf is enough used to be an acceptable format for almost anyone. But I've seen people refusing it in such case and ask or doc. In this case I send a screen capture of the formula but I will never take a long time to make a doc for such 'bigot'. This is a special case but it's not the only one. I'm not fanboy of free softwares, I use the best soft for my needs I can find and try to make all I can to adapt to other people, but I think there is some limits people have to understand and accept to also make a little effort. -- Thomas LavergneEntia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem. (Guillaume d'Ockham) thomas.laver...@reveurs.orghttp://oniros.org
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Haomin Wen wen1...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I am sorry but I really hope dwm can switch to using pango. X fonts are broken and not well supported, at least in Ubuntu. I have six Chinese fonts shown in xlsfonts, but only two of them can be displayed. Then file a bug with the Ubuntu people, why should dwm be forced to depend on a huge mountain of crud just because people building distributions can't even provide working fonts? Peace uriel
Re: [dwm] dwm's future
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Kurt H Maier karmaf...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Mate Nagy mn...@port70.net wrote: I strongly believe that the major problem of dwm currently is not font handling (8bit ascii bitmap fonts are perfectly fine thank you); Agree 100%. Folks, if you want unicode support, develop a sane, working implementation. Exactly. I've never seen one that matches both sane and working. http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/utf There you go ;) But I agree with your point in the X11 context (although see http://plan9.us) uriel 1. Complete lack of proper xrandr and multi monitor support - this is solved in multiple tiling wms, there's no reason other than lack of interest or obscure ideology not to do this. Here's a patch to make DWM work fine on a two-monitor side-by-side setup: --- dwm.c~ 2009-02-08 06:10:49.0 -0600 +++ dwm.c 2009-02-25 18:54:17.0 -0600 @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ c = nexttiled(clients); mw = mfact * ww; adjustborder(c, n == 1 ? 0 : borderpx); - resize(c, wx, wy, (n == 1 ? ww : mw) - 2 * c-bw, wh - 2 * c-bw, resizehints); + resize(c, wx, wy, mw - 2 * c-bw, wh - 2 * c-bw, resizehints); if(--n == 0) return; ...that's from dwm 5.4.1, using xrandr --output DVI-0 --right-of DVI-1. Problem solved. # Kurt H Maier
