[ECOLOG-L] Fear and intimidation in academia Put simply by a fired professor
Ecolog: I came across this video from 2006 by chance while investigating matters relating to ecological economics. The last five minutes or so are most to the point; you can start at 15 or 16 minutes and thus spend only four or five minutes. The entire clip is 20 minutes. His comments both illustrate the principles by which ecologists and others choosing an academic career must live, and, by implication, the students . . . http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/473 WT
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and intimidation in academia Put simply by a fired professor
Wayne (and other fellow Ecologer's), If you are interested in short videos about the realm of Ecological Economics you might want to check the Gund Institute for Ecological Economics Youtube Channel at: http://www.youtube.com/user/GundInstitute Best, Juan On 9/4/2011 7:37 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Ecolog: I came across this video from 2006 by chance while investigating matters relating to ecological economics. The last five minutes or so are most to the point; you can start at 15 or 16 minutes and thus spend only four or five minutes. The entire clip is 20 minutes. His comments both illustrate the principles by which ecologists and others choosing an academic career must live, and, by implication, the students . . . http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/473 WT -- Juan P Alvez PhD Candidate Rubenstein School of Environmental and Natural Resources Gund Institute for Ecological Economics University of Vermont 802-655-9739 Me crié pastando cabras, no bien aprendí a caminar. Desde que nací mi mamá empezó a llevarme en su espalda y así crecí encima de ella escuchando sus coplas. Y mi padre cantaba acompañado por la guitarra. Por eso salí cantor. Tomas Lipan (Cantor Purmamarqueno de Jujuy)
[ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation
Ecolog: I regret to report that approximately 90 percent (depending on how one counts moderate responses, it might be 95) of the off-list responses have not only reinforced the notion that fear and intimidation do exist, but have revealed that the phenomenon exists much farther up the food chain than I could have (or was willing to have) imagined. One correspondent, who asked to be paraphrased, not quoted, implied that the hue and cry (I am paraphrasing) was a blame someone else group, unfairly targeting faculty, institutions, and the government, and contained a fair amount of misinformation about how academia works. What surprised me most was the high level of those (many Ph.D's, even tenured professors) confirming responses, and expressing concern over the phenomenon. What surprised me even more was the reluctance to post to ecolog, regardless of the side of the issue. There's a message in there somewhere . . . or is there? I have known for some time that what I will shorten by calling cutthroat politics existed outside of academia that I thought for years consisted of a minority of twerps, turns out to be all too real in ecology (with a small e as one correspondent put it) too, if the complainants are to be taken seriously. Among my academic friends I am given to think that geologists, for example, are just one big happy family, and that certain social scientists are nearly all bloodthirsty dragons. One such friend was, after receiving a master's degree from a second-tier state institution, required to get a new master's from the upper-tier institution, and was finally driven off-shore for a Ph.D (from an arguably superior institution in a first-world country). Another was simply hassled to the point of having to wear a colostomy bag. I won't go on . . . While I don't doubt for a second that there are whiners out there who want to shift the blame to a tough professor or the system, that does not mean that I doubt the validity of the complainants. I do not conclude, from this inadequate (though surprisingly large) sample, and almost offhand enquiry, that 90 percent of the system consists of rotten, insecure, pompous egocentrics; neither can I conclude that their numbers are demonstrated to be insignificant either. I suspect that the reality varies with the institution and with students and graduates who have not yet received tenure. Good teaching might drive bad teaching out of circulation, but if the pack of hyenas (no offense to this lovely animal) is big enough, the converse could easily be the case. I am under no illusion (yea, the number of off-list responses proscribes any such thought) that fear will evaporate and that those clutching onto their positions will suddenly get religion and become welcoming of criticism or any less derisive of opinions other than their own, with or without evidence. What I do hope is that the intellectually secure on review committees will learn to spot budding poseurs and refuse to admit them into the upper ranks--nay, to vote in their favor at all (should some Ph.D's, CEO's, CFO's, etc. [presumably mere 'whiners?'] be flipping burgers as a career?). This I hope for all sorts of organizations and institutions, not just academia. In the dog-eat-dog worlds of government and private enterprise where I spent most of my time, I have found, over the last several decades, that bs'ers were somehow able to trump those with real ability. I found, in fact, that the only reason those of real ability remain in many institutions, public and private, is to carry water for the deadwood and gasbags. Finally, one thing I could not understand in my years of reading Ecolog, is why so few of the 12,000+? subscribers actually posted. Some lurk for the sole purpose of getting jobs. Others just lurk. And a handful actually post. One respondent confided that the quality of the discourse was beneath his or her standards--boring and inconsequential. It makes me kinda wonder, though, whether or not the quality of the discourse is enhanced or diminished by the fear-of-posting factor. I have noticed, for example, that most discussions do simply lose steam, often just before a conclusions seems to be at hand. All this does not shake my faith in the potential of Ecolog. It does leave me with the impression that more of that potential goes unrealized than I once thought. Will that be helped or hindered by driving all the elephants into the closet? WT PS: (Confidential to students and most non-tenured faculty: Regrettably, I must conclude that y'all are right--posting, even to Ecolog actually could be hazardous to your future.) To be, or not to be, that is the question. --William Shakespeare, Hamlet. It is the responsibility of the journalist to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. --paraphrasing H. L. Menken
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation
Thank you Wayne, and thank you David, This site has been very useful and actually quite entertaining to read at times. I believe a lot of the intimidation in oneself comes from a preconceived notion of how a particular person may react. For instance, if I pounded it in my head that if I was only going to receive a belittling, or a sense of inferiority when I asked a question from a superior, or rather someone of higher academic stature, then why would I ask the question in the first place. It is imperative to keep a strong mind in the sense of not letting yourself become intimidated, especially when you’re trying to excel yourself, your education, your future. I was an undergraduate not all that long ago, and the one thing that I learned very quickly was just that. If you become intimidated, you become insecure in your abilities. I quickly overcame that fear, and pushed forward. I have a master's in biology now, and until recently was employed full-time as a park ranger. My finance was offered a better position, so we moved. I am now looking for work, and I am using the ideals that pushed me forward and keep pushing me forward. I am not afraid to ask questions, especially from those higher on the so-called totem pole. It is the only way that I know how to network with people, which I have found is one of, if not the best, tool that one can use to further career (or academic) opportunities. All in all, particular people have different ways of expressing themselves. I take criticism as a good thing, but I also take it with a grain-of-salt at times as well. To those who are in the beginnings of their college careers, keep your head up and continue to ask questions and you will excel! -Jason “Wild beasts and birds are by right not the property merely of people who are alive today, but the property of unknown generations whose belongings we have no right to squander.” President Theodore Roosevelt From: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation Ecolog: Well, I asked for it, but I must confess that the (almost entirely) off-list responses did little to settle my nerves on the subject. I accept Ecolog for what it is, and am unconcerned about what it is not--in the sense that I am very grateful for the service that David provides, not only free, but too often without thanks.* I hope that this (entirely unscientific) and highly abbreviated sampling of responses will advance everyone's awareness and stimulate further thinking and comment concerning this concern. I continue to welcome off-list discussion as well as on-list discussion and hope that those who do fear to post will find a way to interact with fellow students of the phenomenon of ecology (of whatever kind, level, and degree)* and the myriad of issues attached thereto, either on Ecolog or by direct communication in some kind of ad-hoc email circuit. I suppose anyone could act as an off-list coordinator for hot or taboo topics, to shield the uneasy from being archived, especially since it is widely considered unethical to quote email statements with attribution. However, this would deprive the Ecolog Forum (except for the willing participants) of the content. I guess there might be some way to use pseudonyms? In the small sampling of off-list comments that follow there are some direct and indirect suggestions as to how the problem might be mitigated to some extent. Any other ideas? I'm in favor of all being held to the same standard of intellectual/scientific enquiry, student or grizzled professor. That means that responses to students and professors alike should be free and frank, but the responder must realize that errors will (if the system works properly) be pointed out--no holds barred. Time was, professors cut students no slack, but neither were they particularly nasty about it (though I confess that it does seem to me that many students may misinterpret frankness for hostility). Baptismal by fire has a certain quality of sticking with one . . . At the same time, I think students should be revered. But not babied. I continue to welcome your criticisms. WT PS: A friend of ours has long been at or near the top of his field, highly and rightly respected for the hard work he has done all his life--the picture of the careful scientist, and a mild-mannered, patient professor loved by his students. Sharing a beer with me one time, he confided to me that he often felt fear that he would be found out a fraud. It's an uneasy position to be in, so if it's any comfort, to paraphrase Margaret Mead, there's fear enough to go around. When one is at or near the top, it must be a heavy responsibility. The late G. Ledyard Stebbins, an emeritus professor at the time, once said something to the effect that he now no longer had to curry the favor of anyone; at last he could be perfectly
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation
Ecolog: Well, I asked for it, but I must confess that the (almost entirely) off-list responses did little to settle my nerves on the subject. I accept Ecolog for what it is, and am unconcerned about what it is not--in the sense that I am very grateful for the service that David provides, not only free, but too often without thanks.* I hope that this (entirely unscientific) and highly abbreviated sampling of responses will advance everyone's awareness and stimulate further thinking and comment concerning this concern. I continue to welcome off-list discussion as well as on-list discussion and hope that those who do fear to post will find a way to interact with fellow students of the phenomenon of ecology (of whatever kind, level, and degree)* and the myriad of issues attached thereto, either on Ecolog or by direct communication in some kind of ad-hoc email circuit. I suppose anyone could act as an off-list coordinator for hot or taboo topics, to shield the uneasy from being archived, especially since it is widely considered unethical to quote email statements with attribution. However, this would deprive the Ecolog Forum (except for the willing participants) of the content. I guess there might be some way to use pseudonyms? In the small sampling of off-list comments that follow there are some direct and indirect suggestions as to how the problem might be mitigated to some extent. Any other ideas? I'm in favor of all being held to the same standard of intellectual/scientific enquiry, student or grizzled professor. That means that responses to students and professors alike should be free and frank, but the responder must realize that errors will (if the system works properly) be pointed out--no holds barred. Time was, professors cut students no slack, but neither were they particularly nasty about it (though I confess that it does seem to me that many students may misinterpret frankness for hostility). Baptismal by fire has a certain quality of sticking with one . . . At the same time, I think students should be revered. But not babied. I continue to welcome your criticisms. WT PS: A friend of ours has long been at or near the top of his field, highly and rightly respected for the hard work he has done all his life--the picture of the careful scientist, and a mild-mannered, patient professor loved by his students. Sharing a beer with me one time, he confided to me that he often felt fear that he would be found out a fraud. It's an uneasy position to be in, so if it's any comfort, to paraphrase Margaret Mead, there's fear enough to go around. When one is at or near the top, it must be a heavy responsibility. The late G. Ledyard Stebbins, an emeritus professor at the time, once said something to the effect that he now no longer had to curry the favor of anyone; at last he could be perfectly frank--he needn't have bothered to explain; I appreciated, nay, felt privileged, to be corrected by a scientist of his well-deserved stature. I was astonished to hear that academic intimidation and the need for political pussyfooting apparently extended to the headiest heights of academic accomplishment. He was a natural teacher, patient with all, of whatever stature. It was always a pleasure to be in his company; he was another example of exemplary character. I, too, was intimidated by Ph.D's in my youth, especially the notables. Going to the AAAS annual meeting in 1972 cured me. I was able to attend some sessions of some of the great scientists of the day, and I must say that most were very gracious--even though they did not tend to suffer fools gladly. Yes, young scientists were shaking in their boots, and the top people showed them no mercy--but only in the sense that they had high expectations of the students; they were not vicious or vindictive, unlike some of their pompous colleagues. Greatness stands out. It can't be faked. I never regretted getting up the courage to attend, but since I didn't give a paper, I really had nothing to fear--but I was just that intimidated. That experience got me over it. WT *Special thanks are due to David for making Ecolog available to everyone. Here's the brief summary of the responses to date: Not qualified to post to Ecolog. I love trying out my opinions and ideas on folks who are more knowledgeable, but only if it's going to be a learning experience and not turn into one of those, I'm right and you're wrong so I'm going to be sarcastic/belittling about it debates. I use it as a source of current community activity/conferences/jobs to help me gauge for the future. I have also used it to ask questions about my own research and have received very helpful tips from students and professionals alike. I think it can be a useful tool for networking to some extent as well. I have had mixed experiences with college faculty / graduate students / post-docs as an undergrad. My lower division
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation
I think it depends on why one is using Ecolog. Personally, I use it as a source of current community activity/conferences/jobs to help me gauge for the future. I have also used it to ask questions about my own research and have received very helpful tips from students and professionals alike. I think it can be a useful tool for networking to some extent as well. Just my 2 cents. Graduate student, Erin
[ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation Results partial 110824
Ecolog: Among the several poignant responses received, this is one of the saddest about why some people don't post contributions to Ecolog Forum discussions: . . . because I'm just a student that my opinion isn't worthwhile even if it does make a good point. Somehow, somewhere in the length and breadth of academia, there are reasons why students come to this kind of conclusion. Why? WT
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation Results partial 110824
Today I called someone at the National Academy and asked why there are no postdocs are on their new committee to evaluate the structure of the science enterprise as it impacts and is impacted by career prospects for postdocs (I am paraphrasing as I understand the study - it is a re-visiting of the 2000 COSEPUP study) (see article URL below).http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/08/natl-academies.html http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/08/natl-academies.html Amid a long explanation of their plans, and a lengthy but possibly fruitful conversation, one of the things I was disturbed by was a partial answer to my concern: ... because we don't care what they postdocs and grad students say. In context, I believe the real point of the sentence was to describe why their committee contains older luminaries in science who aren't in the fray of fighting over grants and their careers like younger faculty are - which does make some sense. However, the whole celebrity worship in science I think is directly related to the low regard that is given to younger scientists trying to establish careers. I still maintain that it is a little irrational to have high hopes for this study resulting in much positive change for postdocs and young scientists given that they don't have any representation on the committee. It's not that the older guard of science are all out to exploit postdocs or prevent us from competing with them, but what does someone know about the current plight of the young starting scientist who hasn't entered a lab in 20-30 years? (or, in the case of the director of the National Postdoc Association, who is neither a scientist nor a Ph.D.?). http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/08/natl-academies.html To answer Wayne's question: Oppressive hierarchy, entrenched senses of entitlement, rigid establishment structure... the usual root of societal ills :) . You can test this: go into any scientific forum online and say something negative about tenure or spousal hiring. ;) http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/08/natl-academies.html Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. Biochemistry and Molecular Biology http://www.allthingsbugs.com/Curriculum_Vitae.pdf On 8/24/2011 9:32 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Ecolog: Among the several poignant responses received, this is one of the saddest about why some people don't post contributions to Ecolog Forum discussions: . . . because I'm just a student that my opinion isn't worthwhile even if it does make a good point. Somehow, somewhere in the length and breadth of academia, there are reasons why students come to this kind of conclusion. Why? WT
[ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation
All: Recent activity (and inactivity?) on Ecolog has alerted me to the apparent fact that these ancient emotions and dominance-posturing are all too alive and well right here and now. Almost everyone has some degree of awareness of the potential hazards of posting anything to the Internet, and the fact that it doesn't require facebook posts to expose one to every genius and kook in the world. My present concern is confined to concerns about the potential of Ecolog, and how much of that potential is unrealized. Here is a small list of my observations over the last decade or so of reading and posting to Ecolog: 1. Judging from the off-list emails I've received, I've come to the conclusion that students, in particular, are wary of posting to Ecolog. I think I know some of the answers, but I would like to know the whole gory story. [more of the list later . . . ] WT PS: You can (of course!) respond off-list if you don't want to expose yourself and your ideas to the (13,000+ - subscribers?) world. In your reply, however, please don't alter the beginning of the subject-line, on or off-list. Feel free to add subsidiary subjects after the existing subject. Or, if you want to start a new, but relevant thread, feel free to do so.
