Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Dear Ecolog: My first post here, I was just following this conversation of the definition of ecosystem function. From what I've read, many here think the ecosystem function inherently has some benefit to the ecosystem, and that the ecosystem can be either in a functional and desirable state or not. I had always thought that the ecosystem itself is neutral, and there may be a continuum of states in which it may be found, depending on the biotic and abiotic forces in action. The implication that the ecosystem hold these functions and processes for its own benefit and perpetuation gives it a status of an entity, purpose, and perhaps consciousness. If we are referring to a Gaia concept then perhaps this would be a valid argument, but this may be better suited for a philosophical argument than an ecological one. If we are strictly speaking of changes in the rates of energy and chemical cycling, then we can speak of increases and decreases in specific processes, and perhaps there is a state at which the ecosystem ceases to have a specific function, in which a rate is decreased to the point of insignificance. This seems unlikely. It seems more likely that a system would reach an alternative state in which other processes would become more important drivers. Ecosystems are not stoic. They change depending on the biotic and abiotic forces at hand, and may sometimes be driven more strongly by one or another. For example, in a drought, many cycles may slow down considerably. Same thing with a cold season. The ecosystem may be in a stable state, but it is not stoic. I also don't think that there is some optimal functional rate, etc. Again, this assumes that the ecosystem has some purpose instead of flux. I would like to know your opinions about this!! Ilonka Zlatar PhD student University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hi Ted, I agree with you, but I'm not at all sure that I have a lot of company. To me, the ecosystem is everything--at least including the earth and its atmosphere. I don't know whether or not it is unlikely, but I'll accept rather than dwell on such esoterica. (For all I know, it might be a universal imperative, but that is a discussion that few dare to embark upon, and most certainly not to a conclusion. Like so many discussions here, it would most likely fizzle into a poof of vanities.) For convenience, I refer to subsets of the ecosystem as ecosystems. A vernal pool, for example, can be unique enough to be an excellent microcosm that the study of such a handy-sized and simplified representative of the whole to help us understand how the whole ecosystem might function. Different vernal pools might be studied and compared such that the effects of small variations in habitat conditions might reveal what is involved in the interactions and activities of its constituent organisms and abiotic variations. This is why I believe that knowing the ranges of requirements and tolerances of individual organisms and populations is important and our ignorance of these things is a tragic omission. WT PS: What is needed are specifics and details rather than endless strings of generalities. - Original Message - From: Ted Mosquin tedmosq...@gmail.com To: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, The way to understand ecosystem function is to first clarify the question. Put in a different way the question is: What do ecosystems actually do? As organisms are required to answer this question you also need to ask: What do organisms do individually and collectively? As noted in my earlier note on this thread the answers are easier for organisms (make food, release oxygen, recycle stuff, etc.), but the answers get more complex for ecosystems (see Table 3 again). And, what have organisms and ecosystems done over the millennium of evolution to have caused the Earth's Ecosphere to become the unlikely marvel that it is? Matt Chew's comments (below), provide another example of muddying of the waters about the meaning of this useful term. Talking about centrisms is philosophy, not science/ecology. Ted On 10/3/2012 10:47 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems dubious, how many times have you seen discussions of functions without benefits, such as the function of mass extinction or the function of acid precipitation? That suggests ecosystem function and ecosystem service are fundamentally identical concepts. Processes are more benefits-equivocal than functions. A designed system (e.g., a farm) includes processes more and less beneficial from various points of reference, but has a designed function benefiting the farmer. An accumulated system (e.g., an ecosystem) likewise includes processes but lacks a designer or a function—if your metaphysics will allow. Matthew K Chew Assistant Research Professor Arizona State University School of Life Sciences ASU Center for Biology Society PO Box 873301 Tempe, AZ 85287-3301 USA Tel 480.965.8422 Fax 480.965.8330 mc...@asu.edu or anek...@gmail.com https://cbs.asu.edu/people/chew-0http://cbs.asu.edu/people/profiles/chew.php http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew On 10/3/2012 10:47 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Wayne, I thought we went through that, a bit back. Ecosystem function is what ecosystems do. They process energy and chemicals. As someone else pointed out, in both cases those functions are mediated through organisms and other compartments. Evidently some think that the consequences (such as perceived benefits to people, or sequestering of materials in particular compartments) of the functions are the functions. I do not. I think that the consequences are exactly that -- consequences, much in the way that the stabilizing of blood sugar levels is a consequence of the function of the pancreas in secreting insulin. But what do I know, I am old. mcneely Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems dubious, how many times have you seen discussions of functions without benefits, such as the function of mass extinction or the function of acid precipitation? That suggests ecosystem function and ecosystem service are fundamentally identical concepts. Processes are more benefits-equivocal than functions. A designed system (e.g., a farm) includes processes more and less beneficial from various points of reference, but has a designed function benefiting the farmer. An accumulated system (e.g., an ecosystem) likewise includes processes but lacks a designer or a function—if your metaphysics will allow. Matthew K Chew Assistant Research Professor Arizona State University School of Life Sciences ASU Center for Biology Society PO Box 873301 Tempe, AZ 85287-3301 USA Tel 480.965.8422 Fax 480.965.8330 mc...@asu.edu or anek...@gmail.com https://cbs.asu.edu/people/chew-0http://cbs.asu.edu/people/profiles/chew.php http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5307 - Release Date: 10/03/12 -- David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hi Wayne, The way to understand ecosystem function is to first clarify the question. Put in a different way the question is: What do ecosystems actually do? As organisms are required to answer this question you also need to ask: What do organisms do individually and collectively? As noted in my earlier note on this thread the answers are easier for organisms (make food, release oxygen, recycle stuff, etc.), but the answers get more complex for ecosystems (see Table 3 again). And, what have organisms and ecosystems done over the millennium of evolution to have caused the Earth's Ecosphere to become the unlikely marvel that it is? Matt Chew's comments (below), provide another example of muddying of the waters about the meaning of this useful term. Talking about centrisms is philosophy, not science/ecology. Ted On 10/3/2012 10:47 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems dubious, how many times have you seen discussions of functions without benefits, such as the function of mass extinction or the function of acid precipitation? That suggests ecosystem function and ecosystem service are fundamentally identical concepts. Processes are more benefits-equivocal than functions. A designed system (e.g., a farm) includes processes more and less beneficial from various points of reference, but has a designed function benefiting the farmer. An accumulated system (e.g., an ecosystem) likewise includes processes but lacks a designer or a function—if your metaphysics will allow. Matthew K Chew Assistant Research Professor Arizona State University School of Life Sciences ASU Center for Biology Society PO Box 873301 Tempe, AZ 85287-3301 USA Tel 480.965.8422 Fax 480.965.8330 mc...@asu.edu or anek...@gmail.com https://cbs.asu.edu/people/chew-0http://cbs.asu.edu/people/profiles/chew.php http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5307 - Release Date: 10/03/12
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hi Dr. McNeely (and others), There were many posts on the notion of ecosystem function, I'd like to raise the question of ecosystem dysfunction or malfunction. Can such notions make any sense in you view? Dr. McNeely made the analogy with the secretion of insulin by the pancreas stabilyzing blood sugar levels. It seems to me that in the case where the pancreas stops doing that efficiently, one will say that the pancreas is dysfunctional and that something should be done to cure it or at least to reestablish the normal (healthy) blood sugar level. My question would be, can a similar reasoning be made with respect to ecosystems, so that when a part stops performing its function efficiently, one should say that it is dysfunctional? Best, Antoine Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:30:44 -0500 From: mcnee...@cox.net Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Wayne, I thought we went through that, a bit back. Ecosystem function is what ecosystems do. They process energy and chemicals. As someone else pointed out, in both cases those functions are mediated through organisms and other compartments. Evidently some think that the consequences (such as perceived benefits to people, or sequestering of materials in particular compartments) of the functions are the functions. I do not. I think that the consequences are exactly that -- consequences, much in the way that the stabilizing of blood sugar levels is a consequence of the function of the pancreas in secreting insulin. But what do I know, I am old. mcneely Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems dubious, how many times have you seen discussions of functions without benefits, such as the function of mass extinction or the function of acid precipitation? That suggests ecosystem function and ecosystem service are fundamentally identical concepts. Processes are more benefits-equivocal than functions. A designed system (e.g., a farm) includes processes more and less beneficial from various points of reference, but has a designed function benefiting the farmer. An accumulated system (e.g., an ecosystem) likewise includes processes but lacks a designer or a function—if your metaphysics will allow. Matthew K Chew Assistant Research Professor Arizona State University School of Life Sciences ASU Center for Biology Society PO Box 873301 Tempe, AZ 85287-3301 USA Tel 480.965.8422 Fax 480.965.8330 mc...@asu.edu or anek...@gmail.com https://cbs.asu.edu/people/chew-0http://cbs.asu.edu/people/profiles/chew.php http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5307 - Release Date: 10/03/12 -- David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Ms. Dussalult, I accept completely that when beneficial consequences of the two ecosystem functions of energy flow and biogeochemical cycling are impaired, then intervention is appropriate. It is just that intervention itself often has the unexpected and undesired consequence of altering the situation unfavorably rather than favorably both from an ecosystem function point of view, and from our point of view. Thus, intervention must be done with great caution. I also recognize, though it may seem to some otherwise, that the details of the energy flow and biogeochemical cycling matter a great deal. Despite some apparent perceptions to the contrary, btw, so did both Odums, who were never the systems ideologues that they have been painted. The compartmental composition (what species, what population size, what geographic extant and so on) matter immensely, and must be detailed for us to understand anything about functions and their interactions with each other in any given ecosystem. And finally, of course I recognize that when we partition the biosphere and the abiotic realm into ecosystems, we are arbitrarily delimiting for our sake, not recognizing real divisions of nature. It is very important to keep that in mind. Had folks done so, we might still have native chestnut trees in N. America, and the Niger Delta might still be a supportive system, both functioning and producing what we perceive as beneficial consequences of its functions. Just some ramblings by an old guy in response to a query. david mcneely Antoine C.-Dussault antoinecdussa...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Dr. McNeely (and others), There were many posts on the notion of ecosystem function, I'd like to raise the question of ecosystem dysfunction or malfunction. Can such notions make any sense in you view? Dr. McNeely made the analogy with the secretion of insulin by the pancreas stabilyzing blood sugar levels. It seems to me that in the case where the pancreas stops doing that efficiently, one will say that the pancreas is dysfunctional and that something should be done to cure it or at least to reestablish the normal (healthy) blood sugar level. My question would be, can a similar reasoning be made with respect to ecosystems, so that when a part stops performing its function efficiently, one should say that it is dysfunctional? Best, Antoine Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 22:30:44 -0500 From: mcnee...@cox.net Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Wayne, I thought we went through that, a bit back. Ecosystem function is what ecosystems do. They process energy and chemicals. As someone else pointed out, in both cases those functions are mediated through organisms and other compartments. Evidently some think that the consequences (such as perceived benefits to people, or sequestering of materials in particular compartments) of the functions are the functions. I do not. I think that the consequences are exactly that -- consequences, much in the way that the stabilizing of blood sugar levels is a consequence of the function of the pancreas in secreting insulin. But what do I know, I am old. mcneely Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems dubious, how many times have you seen discussions of functions without benefits, such as the function of mass extinction or the function of acid precipitation? That suggests ecosystem function and ecosystem service are fundamentally identical concepts. Processes are more benefits-equivocal than functions. A designed system (e.g., a farm) includes processes more and less beneficial from various points of reference, but has a designed function benefiting the farmer. An accumulated system (e.g., an ecosystem) likewise includes processes but lacks a designer or a function—if your metaphysics will allow. Matthew K Chew Assistant Research Professor Arizona State University School of Life Sciences ASU Center for Biology Society PO Box 873301
[ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem Function Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Ecolog: I still want to know what ecosystem function is. Just a simple definition, no more, no less. WT - Original Message - From: Matt Chew anek...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity This has been an interesting conversation. Ecological functions entail putative benefits to some population or individual. It doesn't have to be a human population, so it doesn't have to be anthropocentric, but that is the second most common centrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism are generally proxies for the most common one: idiocentrism. Biocentrism and ecocentrism involve benefits to things that benefit the author of the argument. If this seems dubious, how many times have you seen discussions of functions without benefits, such as the function of mass extinction or the function of acid precipitation? That suggests ecosystem function and ecosystem service are fundamentally identical concepts. Processes are more benefits-equivocal than functions. A designed system (e.g., a farm) includes processes more and less beneficial from various points of reference, but has a designed function benefiting the farmer. An accumulated system (e.g., an ecosystem) likewise includes processes but lacks a designer or a function—if your metaphysics will allow. Matthew K Chew Assistant Research Professor Arizona State University School of Life Sciences ASU Center for Biology Society PO Box 873301 Tempe, AZ 85287-3301 USA Tel 480.965.8422 Fax 480.965.8330 mc...@asu.edu or anek...@gmail.com https://cbs.asu.edu/people/chew-0http://cbs.asu.edu/people/profiles/chew.php http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5307 - Release Date: 10/03/12
[ECOLOG-L] Ecological Laws They do not exist Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hello Ted and all: I have put it this way: Organisms do what they can when they can, where they can. Virtually no one has refuted it, and virtually no one has affirmed it. I even tried to rattle some cages by saying that it was a Law (or at least an axiom) of biology/ecology; still no objections, just a deafening silence. No buzz. Not even from one of the top ecologists. I do take you seriously, Ted, but what you are suggesting, letting one's intuition go, is so counterintuitive that it seems an absurdity to those who believe that that buzz can be reduced to numbers and that the metamath that runs everything can't be trusted. We have laid down a couple of gauntlets, Ted, and may well be burned at the stake--or politely ignored. WT - Original Message - From: Ted Mosquin tedmosq...@gmail.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:28 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello all, Here is the way I understand the meaning of 'functional diversity'. No endless statistics or fuzzy math required to muddy the explanation even more. The essential question is: what do organisms (individually and collectively) actually do within their ecosystems to enable the world to have become the way it is? Let me count the ways...(Table 3 in the URL below). We humans find ourselves living in a great big never-ending self organizing buzz out there no matter where one goes on this planet. The buzz has been going on since the beginning of time. One has to try to bear in mind that we are processes, that is we are verbs and not nouns (except in micro-moments in time). This is an alternative to fuzzy math and stats -- just go out there, take a deep breath and be the participant that you are. http://www.ecospherics.net/pages/MosqEcoFun5.html Ted Mosquin On 9/29/2012 9:30 AM, Nicolas PERU wrote: I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy set mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white rules like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that if we really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and take into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature. Binary categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the end of our calculus processes. Nicolas Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. WT - Original Message - From: Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural
[ECOLOG-L] Fwd: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Please describe function in ecosystems. WT - Original Message - From: Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello, I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity between a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would like to be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar across the region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc. I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta diversity values as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate regression on distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to, for example, environmental data. Would it also be appropriate to use these values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries that are more/less similar in functional diversity? This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons? Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly appreciated. Thank you - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5293 - Release Date: 09/26/12 -- Nicolas PERU, PhD 33-(0)4 72 43 28 94 06-88-15-23-10 CNRS, UMR 5023 - LEHNA Université Claude Bernard - Lyon 1 43 Bld du 11 novembre 1918 Rdc Bât Forel 69622 VILLEURBANNE cedex FRANCE
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
and be satisfied with this point of view. But, our understanding of ecosystems functioning is not just a hobby. This have some important consequences on our possibilities to match human activities and Nature's preservation. Having good measures of ecosystem functioning would allow us to know what are the crucial leverages in ecosystems we can rely on to enhance ecosystems quality. This is particularly true in human-impacted systems. Nicolas Le Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:28:00 +0200, Ted Mosquin tedmosq...@gmail.com a écrit: Hello all, Here is the way I understand the meaning of 'functional diversity'. No endless statistics or fuzzy math required to muddy the explanation even more. The essential question is: what do organisms (individually and collectively) actually do within their ecosystems to enable the world to have become the way it is? Let me count the ways...(Table 3 in the URL below). We humans find ourselves living in a great big never-ending self organizing buzz out there no matter where one goes on this planet. The buzz has been going on since the beginning of time. One has to try to bear in mind that we are processes, that is we are verbs and not nouns (except in micro-moments in time). This is an alternative to fuzzy math and stats -- just go out there, take a deep breath and be the participant that you are. http://www.ecospherics.net/**pages/MosqEcoFun5.htmlhttp://www.ecospherics.net/pages/MosqEcoFun5.html Ted Mosquin On 9/29/2012 9:30 AM, Nicolas PERU wrote: I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy set mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white rules like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that if we really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and take into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature. Binary categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the end of our calculus processes. Nicolas Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. WT - Original Message - From: Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
and ecosystems processes would be no exception. But, I think that quantification is a second need (after classification) for human being. And this not only encompass a philosophical thought but also a very practical one. Indeed, we can still go walking in a forest evaluating roughly what is happening and be satisfied with this point of view. But, our understanding of ecosystems functioning is not just a hobby. This have some important consequences on our possibilities to match human activities and Nature's preservation. Having good measures of ecosystem functioning would allow us to know what are the crucial leverages in ecosystems we can rely on to enhance ecosystems quality. This is particularly true in human-impacted systems. Nicolas Le Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:28:00 +0200, Ted Mosquin tedmosq...@gmail.com a écrit: Hello all, Here is the way I understand the meaning of 'functional diversity'. No endless statistics or fuzzy math required to muddy the explanation even more. The essential question is: what do organisms (individually and collectively) actually do within their ecosystems to enable the world to have become the way it is? Let me count the ways...(Table 3 in the URL below). We humans find ourselves living in a great big never-ending self organizing buzz out there no matter where one goes on this planet. The buzz has been going on since the beginning of time. One has to try to bear in mind that we are processes, that is we are verbs and not nouns (except in micro-moments in time). This is an alternative to fuzzy math and stats -- just go out there, take a deep breath and be the participant that you are. http://www.ecospherics.net/**pages/MosqEcoFun5.htmlhttp://www.ecospherics.net/pages/MosqEcoFun5.html Ted Mosquin On 9/29/2012 9:30 AM, Nicolas PERU wrote: I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy set mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white rules like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that if we really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and take into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature. Binary categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the end of our calculus processes. Nicolas Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. WT - Original Message - From: Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hello all, Here is the way I understand the meaning of 'functional diversity'. No endless statistics or fuzzy math required to muddy the explanation even more. The essential question is: what do organisms (individually and collectively) actually do within their ecosystems to enable the world to have become the way it is? Let me count the ways...(Table 3 in the URL below). We humans find ourselves living in a great big never-ending self organizing buzz out there no matter where one goes on this planet. The buzz has been going on since the beginning of time. One has to try to bear in mind that we are processes, that is we are verbs and not nouns (except in micro-moments in time). This is an alternative to fuzzy math and stats -- just go out there, take a deep breath and be the participant that you are. http://www.ecospherics.net/pages/MosqEcoFun5.html Ted Mosquin On 9/29/2012 9:30 AM, Nicolas PERU wrote: I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy set mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white rules like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that if we really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and take into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature. Binary categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the end of our calculus processes. Nicolas Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. WT - Original Message - From: Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Please describe function in ecosystems. WT - Original Message - From: Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello, I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity between a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would like to be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar across the region to evaluate patterns
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy set mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white rules like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that if we really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and take into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature. Binary categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the end of our calculus processes. Nicolas Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. WT - Original Message - From: Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Please describe function in ecosystems. WT - Original Message - From: Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello, I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity between a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would like to be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar across the region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc. I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta diversity values as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate regression on distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to, for example, environmental data. Would it also be appropriate to use these values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries that are more/less similar in functional diversity? This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons? Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly appreciated. Thank you - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5293 - Release Date: 09/26/12 -- Nicolas PERU
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. WT - Original Message - From: Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.fr To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Please describe function in ecosystems. WT - Original Message - From: Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello, I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity between a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would like to be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar across the region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc. I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta diversity values as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate regression on distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to, for example, environmental data. Would it also be appropriate to use these values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries that are more/less similar in functional diversity? This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons? Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly appreciated. Thank you - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5293 - Release Date: 09/26/12 -- Nicolas PERU, PhD 33-(0)4 72 43 28 94 06-88-15-23-10 CNRS, UMR 5023 - LEHNA Université Claude Bernard - Lyon 1 43 Bld du 11 novembre 1918 Rdc Bât Forel 69622 VILLEURBANNE cedex FRANCE - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5295 - Release Date: 09/27/12
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Dear Wayne, In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer. This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. Regards, Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net a écrit: Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Please describe function in ecosystems. WT - Original Message - From: Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello, I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity between a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would like to be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar across the region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc. I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta diversity values as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate regression on distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to, for example, environmental data. Would it also be appropriate to use these values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries that are more/less similar in functional diversity? This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons? Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly appreciated. Thank you - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5293 - Release Date: 09/26/12 -- Nicolas PERU, PhD 33-(0)4 72 43 28 94 06-88-15-23-10 CNRS, UMR 5023 - LEHNA Université Claude Bernard - Lyon 1 43 Bld du 11 novembre 1918 Rdc Bât Forel 69622 VILLEURBANNE cedex FRANCE
[ECOLOG-L] Ecosystem function definition Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Ling and Ecolog: It seems to me that before one moves into method, one should understand the question first, and I make no claim to being able to do so. When you say I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before . . . were you referring to a definition of ecosystem function or to the methodology? I remember well a conversation with Dick Vogl years ago when I blithely used the term ecosystem function. Dick said I'm not sure that anybody knows what ecosystem function is. Vogl had a way of stimulating one's thinking with stuff like that. I do have some vague ideas about what ecosystem function is, but I have never brought it all together, so I thought maybe you had, or knew of someone who had, as you seemed to be using the term at least as confidently as I did when Vogl made his statement. My thoughts about ecosystem function are still at the question phase and yet consist of an assemblage of stuff like Juan mentioned rather than a complete explanation of the phenomenon. Functional diversity is to me a yet more mysterious concept which I would have to come to understand before venturing forth any ideas about methodology, and certainly would have no clue about the relative usefulness of one method or set of methods over the other. It does, however, seem sensible to me that almost any kind of comparative analysis of similar ecosystem subsets like estuaries would be useful, even if it would not, in of itself, get at causality, for example, as it would at least pave the way toward further analysis. This is the sort of question that I think might be helped by the proposal I have submitted to the Smithsonian Encyclopedia of Life program and kindly posted by one of the staff. Briefly, that proposal is to begin to gather data on organisms' ranges of requirements and limitations. I hope someone can lead me to whoever may have defined ecosystem function in a comprehensive, scientific way that is widely accepted by the discipline. WT - Original Message - From: ling huang ling.hu...@prodigy.net To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi No (sorry Wayne I was not clear) my response was not to the 'Please describe function in ecosystems.question,' but about the 'but I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons?' and 'Would it also be appropriate to use these values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries that are more/less similar in functional diversity?' I am suggesting to make use of some stat software such as SAS or SYSTAT and do a multivariate cluster analysis on the variables (functional diversity variables on hand) for the statistical grouping of like estuaries. These variables may well include a subset of those mentioned by Juan; namely '(regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, pollination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions)'. Best wishes, Ling Ling Huang Sacramento City College Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan --- On Thu, 9/27/12
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hi, I wanted to thank everyone for their responses and recommendations. Some of them were quite helpful and have got me thinking in new ways. With respect to the use of the Rao index, I didn't express my question very well. What I was really trying to discern was whether it was appropriate to use the Rao index values as a distance matrix of functional dissimilarity between estuaries that could then be evaluated using standard multivariate methods (i.e. clustering). I have not seen Shannon entropy used this way either, but it is understood that pairwise beta diversity calculated by either of these approaches is a measure of dissimilarity between sites. So, on that basis, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch. Also, the index values are used as dissimilarities in Mantel tests or other matrix calculations. I am not sure whether the reason these indices have not been used this way is because it would be inappropriate statistically or mathematically, or whether there is some ecological reason for not doing it. Thanks again. - Katharine
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Nicolas, Why would you restrict your interest to the flow of energy, and not include the flow of material, such as a nutrient like fixed nitrogen, or potassium? Martin M. Meiss 2012/9/27 Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu Hi, I wanted to thank everyone for their responses and recommendations. Some of them were quite helpful and have got me thinking in new ways. With respect to the use of the Rao index, I didn't express my question very well. What I was really trying to discern was whether it was appropriate to use the Rao index values as a distance matrix of functional dissimilarity between estuaries that could then be evaluated using standard multivariate methods (i.e. clustering). I have not seen Shannon entropy used this way either, but it is understood that pairwise beta diversity calculated by either of these approaches is a measure of dissimilarity between sites. So, on that basis, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch. Also, the index values are used as dissimilarities in Mantel tests or other matrix calculations. I am not sure whether the reason these indices have not been used this way is because it would be inappropriate statistically or mathematically, or whether there is some ecological reason for not doing it. Thanks again. - Katharine
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Finally, people are talking on my simplistic level, and I hope I can respond in a meaningful way. I say these things with the definite understanding that they may mark me as just an old, irrelevant fart in today's exciting world. It seems to me that ecosystems do two things, and that both are outlined in Ecology 101 and the texts used for that course. First, they collect and process energy (one ecosystem function is energy flow). Second, they move materials through ecosystem compartments (a second ecosystem function is biogeochemical cycling). Each of these two functions drives and modulates the other. That does not mean that the other things that people are interested in, and sometimes speak of as ecosystem functions are not important, and should not be considered. Those things can also contribute to understanding ecosystems in greater depth and more accurately. The things mentioned by others on here are certainly important. But the function of an entity is, to me, simply what it does. What ecosystems do is process energy and matter, in the general ways I have described above. Certainly many of the things we are interested in, things like carbon balance and heat accumulation, natural resource use and protection, agriculture are dependent on what ecosystems do -- process energy and matter. To speak of the other things that have been discussed as the functions of ecosystems would be akin to saying that the function of the pancreas is to prevent diabetes. The function of the pancreas is to secrete hormones and digestive enzymes. The part about diabetes relates more to its integration with the body of which it is a part. I hope this is of some use. Just thought a reminder of fundamentals might be appropriate. David McNeely Martin Meiss mme...@gmail.com wrote: Nicolas, Why would you restrict your interest to the flow of energy, and not include the flow of material, such as a nutrient like fixed nitrogen, or potassium? Martin M. Meiss 2012/9/27 Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu Hi, I wanted to thank everyone for their responses and recommendations. Some of them were quite helpful and have got me thinking in new ways. With respect to the use of the Rao index, I didn't express my question very well. What I was really trying to discern was whether it was appropriate to use the Rao index values as a distance matrix of functional dissimilarity between estuaries that could then be evaluated using standard multivariate methods (i.e. clustering). I have not seen Shannon entropy used this way either, but it is understood that pairwise beta diversity calculated by either of these approaches is a measure of dissimilarity between sites. So, on that basis, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch. Also, the index values are used as dissimilarities in Mantel tests or other matrix calculations. I am not sure whether the reason these indices have not been used this way is because it would be inappropriate statistically or mathematically, or whether there is some ecological reason for not doing it. Thanks again. - Katharine -- David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Martin, You're perfectly right, this is was an oversight from my part and David gave a more general definition of my point of view (including flow of material). Now, if I go back on Katharine question, this is important to understand that traits are just a kind of proxy to evaluate ecosystems functions and more particularly ecosystems functions realized by estuarine fishes. Consequently, in traits studies we are quite far from a pure evaluation of functional diversity. My PhD thesis was on freshwater invertebrates traits and some people said to me that I wasn't measuring a functional diversity because there was no direct link with nutrient or energy. This is true of course. But this is the reason why I wrote in my first message that functional diversity measures the different way to manage energy (or material). As traits highlight organisms strategies to maximize their success in ecosystems, we can consider them as a good way to quantify one part of the possible ways to transport energy and material. Mathematically speaking, I'm not sure that beta diversity derived from Rao's index can be considered as a real distance (ie with all properties of a distance) and so included in a cluster analysis. This is a quite complicated index giving a disproportionate weight to abundant species. Consequently, by using Rao's index, you consider that species with high counts are more important for ecosystems functions. Quite simply, a prey (generally abundant) is more abundant than a predator to ensure flows of energy and material. In addition, Rao's index express the mean (functional, biological...) distance of two individual taken at random in the community. As a mean, this index tend to stabilize as the number of species increase (at a rate depending on the distance matrix used and so on the chosen traits) leading to the conclusion that the more species you have the more functionally redundant they are. I could say many things on Rao's index but the most important is that we must be very careful about our biological hypotheses on functional diversity to check if indices are able to really illustrate them. HTH again Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:41:02 +0200, Martin Meiss mme...@gmail.com a écrit: Nicolas, Why would you restrict your interest to the flow of energy, and not include the flow of material, such as a nutrient like fixed nitrogen, or potassium? Martin M. Meiss 2012/9/27 Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu Hi, I wanted to thank everyone for their responses and recommendations. Some of them were quite helpful and have got me thinking in new ways. With respect to the use of the Rao index, I didn't express my question very well. What I was really trying to discern was whether it was appropriate to use the Rao index values as a distance matrix of functional dissimilarity between estuaries that could then be evaluated using standard multivariate methods (i.e. clustering). I have not seen Shannon entropy used this way either, but it is understood that pairwise beta diversity calculated by either of these approaches is a measure of dissimilarity between sites. So, on that basis, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch. Also, the index values are used as dissimilarities in Mantel tests or other matrix calculations. I am not sure whether the reason these indices have not been used this way is because it would be inappropriate statistically or mathematically, or whether there is some ecological reason for not doing it. Thanks again. - Katharine -- Nicolas PERU, PhD 33-(0)4 72 43 28 94 06-88-15-23-10 CNRS, UMR 5023 - LEHNA Université Claude Bernard - Lyon 1 43 Bld du 11 novembre 1918 Rdc Bât Forel 69622 VILLEURBANNE cedex FRANCE
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Hi Katharine Are you intending to do a cluster analysis on the original variables to group so called 'like' estuaries using euclidean distance measures and/or factor analytic methods, and then compare the results of the cluster analysis to results obtained from the distance matrix of functional dissimilarity between estuaries? Ling Ling Huang Sacramento City College --- On Fri, 9/28/12, Neahga Leonard naturalistkni...@gmail.com wrote: From: Neahga Leonard naturalistkni...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Date: Friday, September 28, 2012, 3:45 PM Hello Katharine, Interesting question (once it comes down to plain language). One thing I'd add to the conversation is as follows. In addition to processing energy and material ecosystems develop complex, non-linear internal relationships. An ecosystem is defined by these relationships, the material and energy flow are a way to facilitate these relationships, but describing only these does a poor job of describing the ecosystem as a whole. We often focus on these aspects because they are relatively easy to quantify, but when relationships come into play simplicity is not synonymous with accuracy. Many things process materials and energy, but are not ecosystems. Part of the difficulty with a question like this is that you are treading into the, What is life, type pf question. Every answer we give is an oversimplification. Cheers, Neahga Leonard On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Nicolas PERU nicolas.p...@univ-lyon1.frwrote: Martin, You're perfectly right, this is was an oversight from my part and David gave a more general definition of my point of view (including flow of material). Now, if I go back on Katharine question, this is important to understand that traits are just a kind of proxy to evaluate ecosystems functions and more particularly ecosystems functions realized by estuarine fishes. Consequently, in traits studies we are quite far from a pure evaluation of functional diversity. My PhD thesis was on freshwater invertebrates traits and some people said to me that I wasn't measuring a functional diversity because there was no direct link with nutrient or energy. This is true of course. But this is the reason why I wrote in my first message that functional diversity measures the different way to manage energy (or material). As traits highlight organisms strategies to maximize their success in ecosystems, we can consider them as a good way to quantify one part of the possible ways to transport energy and material. Mathematically speaking, I'm not sure that beta diversity derived from Rao's index can be considered as a real distance (ie with all properties of a distance) and so included in a cluster analysis. This is a quite complicated index giving a disproportionate weight to abundant species. Consequently, by using Rao's index, you consider that species with high counts are more important for ecosystems functions. Quite simply, a prey (generally abundant) is more abundant than a predator to ensure flows of energy and material. In addition, Rao's index express the mean (functional, biological...) distance of two individual taken at random in the community. As a mean, this index tend to stabilize as the number of species increase (at a rate depending on the distance matrix used and so on the chosen traits) leading to the conclusion that the more species you have the more functionally redundant they are. I could say many things on Rao's index but the most important is that we must be very careful about our biological hypotheses on functional diversity to check if indices are able to really illustrate them. HTH again Nicolas Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:41:02 +0200, Martin Meiss mme...@gmail.com a écrit: Nicolas, Why would you restrict your interest to the flow of energy, and not include the flow of material, such as a nutrient like fixed nitrogen, or potassium? Martin M. Meiss 2012/9/27 Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu Hi, I wanted to thank everyone for their responses and recommendations. Some of them were quite helpful and have got me thinking in new ways. With respect to the use of the Rao index, I didn't express my question very well. What I was really trying to discern was whether it was appropriate to use the Rao index values as a distance matrix of functional dissimilarity between estuaries that could then be evaluated using standard multivariate methods (i.e. clustering). I have not seen Shannon entropy used this way either, but it is understood that pairwise beta diversity calculated by either of these approaches is a measure of dissimilarity between sites. So, on that basis, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch. Also, the index values are used as dissimilarities in Mantel tests or other matrix calculations. I am not sure whether the reason these indices have not been used
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity
Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in . . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. I would be delighted to hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic question now. WT - Original Message - From: Juan Alvez To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hi Wayne, You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years ago by De Groot and others, (Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.). It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate, nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.], information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] functions). It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or benefits to humans. Best, Juan On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: Please describe function in ecosystems. WT - Original Message - From: Katharine Miller kmill...@alaska.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity Hello, I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity between a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would like to be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar across the region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc. I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta diversity values as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate regression on distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to, for example, environmental data. Would it also be appropriate to use these values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries that are more/less similar in functional diversity? This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have done an extensive literature search and have not found where this has been done before - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons? Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly appreciated. Thank you - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5293 - Release Date: 09/26/12 -- Juan P. Alvez, PhD Pasture Program Technical Coordinator UVM Extension, Center for Sustainable Agriculture 106 High Point Center, Suite 305 Colchester VT, 05446 Phone: 802-656-6116 Fax: 802-656-8874 jal...@uvm.edu | www.uvm.edu/sustagctr UVM Extension helps individuals and communities put research-based knowledge to work -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5294 - Release Date: 09/27/12
