Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread MontyS
I broke down earlier this year and sold my loaded Altair 8800 on eBay. 
64k static RAM, tape interface (had a Tarbell disk interface but sold it 
years ago), PROM burner, parallel interface card.  Used it to develop a ham 
radio repeater controller in 1980, 32 parallel line signals drove op amps, 
switches, dialer.


I got what I paid for it.  The market is hot now.

Monty K2DLJ 


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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Mike Reublin
Yes! Dr. DX is in my top 5 list of all-time great software.

Mike NF4L

On May 28, 2014, at 8:06 PM, Randy Farmer w...@tx.rr.com wrote:

 And does anybody remember the Doctor DX cartridge for the Commodore 64 from 
 AEA? That was an amazing piece of work. I used one to train for a trip to J6 
 for CQWW CW in 1991.
 
 73...
 Randy, W8FN
 On 5/28/2014 2:44 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
 Don't forget how revolutionary the Commodore VIC-20 was with all of 3.2 K of 
 RAM.  We (Microlog) made a plug in called the AIR-1 for the VIC that allowed 
 CW  RTTY communications. I wrote a complete production test program in 
 BASIC that required no other test equipment but plugging in the AIR-1 and 
 running the tape loaded test program.  It checked the CW copy, aligned the 
 AFSK generator and verified CW  PTT keying, all in that 3.2 K of RAM with 
 neat graphic indicators on the screen for the production testers.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Keith Onishi
My first MS-DOS, actually PC-DOS, machine was IBM Convertible, the first IBM 
laptop machine, with 2 2DD 3.5 FDD drives and LCD display without backlight.
I bought the machine when I was in US for my business trip. I worked with it 
when I was out of office.
The machine was actually made by a Japanese manufacturer with IBM logo.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

2014/05/29 20:19、Mike Reublin n...@nf4l.com のメール:

 Yes! Dr. DX is in my top 5 list of all-time great software.
 
 Mike NF4L
 
 On May 28, 2014, at 8:06 PM, Randy Farmer w...@tx.rr.com wrote:
 
 And does anybody remember the Doctor DX cartridge for the Commodore 64 from 
 AEA? That was an amazing piece of work. I used one to train for a trip to J6 
 for CQWW CW in 1991.
 
 73...
 Randy, W8FN
 On 5/28/2014 2:44 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
 Don't forget how revolutionary the Commodore VIC-20 was with all of 3.2 K 
 of RAM.  We (Microlog) made a plug in called the AIR-1 for the VIC that 
 allowed CW  RTTY communications. I wrote a complete production test 
 program in BASIC that required no other test equipment but plugging in the 
 AIR-1 and running the tape loaded test program.  It checked the CW copy, 
 aligned the AFSK generator and verified CW  PTT keying, all in that 3.2 K 
 of RAM with neat graphic indicators on the screen for the production 
 testers.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Kevin Stover

Neither Gates or Allen had bupkus to do with producing PC-DOS.
They bought it from Seattle Computer Products in 1981 and modified it to 
suit IBM.
They were forced to purchase something off the shelf because they were 
way behind producing their own.

The name PC-DOS came from IBM who licensed MS-DOS.

Another little factoid. If Gary Kildall of Digital Research had been 
able to come to an agreement with IBM when they came calling (before 
going to MS), we'd have run CP/M on the first IBM PC's.


People who know say a lot of the internals of MS-DOS look an awful lot 
like CP/M.


H.


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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[Elecraft] KX3 independent and simultaneous keying for computer logging on CW

2014-05-29 Thread John Lawrence via Elecraft

Don


This independent and simultaneous CW keying of the KX3 is very interesting.  


Using the paddle option on the KX3 simultaneously with the Keyer 3.5 mm port 
for CW contest logging is a great and simple set up for logging program keying 
the key port configured as a straight key making the fill ins process easy.  
However, I have found my configuration to where I use my regular keyer into the 
KX3 or K3 Key port a preferred way for maximum flexibility.  I can use the 
external keyer for additional memory messages in addition to the memory 
messages that are sent by the logging program.  The keyer has an opto isolated 
straight key input port where I plug in the CW output from computer based 
program.  The three wire serial output from the USB to serial converter cable 
from the computer is broken out with a SUCCI-R module that provides the CW, PTT 
and Foot Switch ports to interface the radio along with the TX/RX serial data.  
 The K1EL and MasterKeyer MK-1 or any other keyer with a straight key port will 
work for this application.  Yes, your suggested configurati
 on using the accessory keyer paddle mounted on the KX3 keyer paddle connector 
and at the same time, the keyer port set up as an independent straight key for 
logging program keying is simpler but here m alternative provides more 
versatility.   






John, W1QS
 




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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 independent and simultaneous keying for computer logging on CW

2014-05-29 Thread Matt VK2RQ
I think connecting both your paddle and PC to a K1EL or equivalent winkeyer is 
a better option. This way, when you switch between PC and paddle sending, the 
speed will be the same. Also, I found keying the KX3 directly from the PC 
sounded a bit choppy, as the timing of the dits was too short. The Winkeyer 
has a compensation setting which makes the CW sound much better.

73,
Matt VK2RQ

 On 29 May 2014, at 7:26 am, John Lawrence via Elecraft 
 elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote:
 
 
 Don
 
 
 This independent and simultaneous CW keying of the KX3 is very interesting.  
 
 
 Using the paddle option on the KX3 simultaneously with the Keyer 3.5 mm port 
 for CW contest logging is a great and simple set up for logging program 
 keying the key port configured as a straight key making the fill ins process 
 easy.  However, I have found my configuration to where I use my regular keyer 
 into the KX3 or K3 Key port a preferred way for maximum flexibility.  I can 
 use the external keyer for additional memory messages in addition to the 
 memory messages that are sent by the logging program.  The keyer has an opto 
 isolated straight key input port where I plug in the CW output from computer 
 based program.  The three wire serial output from the USB to serial converter 
 cable from the computer is broken out with a SUCCI-R module that provides the 
 CW, PTT and Foot Switch ports to interface the radio along with the TX/RX 
 serial data.   The K1EL and MasterKeyer MK-1 or any other keyer with a 
 straight key port will work for this application.  Yes, your suggested 
 configura
 ti
 on using the accessory keyer paddle mounted on the KX3 keyer paddle connector 
 and at the same time, the keyer port set up as an independent straight key 
 for logging program keying is simpler but here m alternative provides more 
 versatility.   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 John, W1QS
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 independent and simultaneous keying for computer logging on CW

2014-05-29 Thread John Lawrence via Elecraft
Matt


Your Winkeyer with it's flow control features is something to consider if your 
relying on the internal KX3 keyer.  That may be simpler for those who already 
have the Winkeyer.  I'm happy with my MK-1 alternative.


John, W1QS
 





-Original Message-
From: Matt VK2RQ matt.vk...@gmail.com
To: John Lawrence j123...@aol.com
Cc: w3fpr w3...@embarqmail.com; elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 independent and simultaneous keying for computer 
logging on CW


I think connecting both your paddle and PC to a K1EL or equivalent winkeyer is 
a 
better option. This way, when you switch between PC and paddle sending, the 
speed will be the same. Also, I found keying the KX3 directly from the PC 
sounded a bit choppy, as the timing of the dits was too short. The Winkeyer 
has a compensation setting which makes the CW sound much better.

73,
Matt VK2RQ

 On 29 May 2014, at 7:26 am, John Lawrence via Elecraft 
 elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
wrote:
 
 
 Don
 
 
 This independent and simultaneous CW keying of the KX3 is very interesting.  
 
 
 Using the paddle option on the KX3 simultaneously with the Keyer 3.5 mm port 
for CW contest logging is a great and simple set up for logging program keying 
the key port configured as a straight key making the fill ins process easy.  
However, I have found my configuration to where I use my regular keyer into the 
KX3 or K3 Key port a preferred way for maximum flexibility.  I can use the 
external keyer for additional memory messages in addition to the memory 
messages 
that are sent by the logging program.  The keyer has an opto isolated straight 
key input port where I plug in the CW output from computer based program.  The 
three wire serial output from the USB to serial converter cable from the 
computer is broken out with a SUCCI-R module that provides the CW, PTT and Foot 
Switch ports to interface the radio along with the TX/RX serial data.   The 
K1EL 
and MasterKeyer MK-1 or any other keyer with a straight key port will work for 
this application.  Yes, your suggested configurati
 on using the accessory keyer paddle mounted on the KX3 keyer paddle connector 
and at the same time, the keyer port set up as an independent straight key for 
logging program keying is simpler but here m alternative provides more 
versatility.   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 John, W1QS
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Folks - lets end this OT thread at this time. Its a little too far afield from 
our regular list content and is overloading the in-boxes of a large number of 
Elecraft readers.


36 posts in a 24 hour period on a Non-Elecraft topic is -way- over the limit. 
Please self limit your postings to OT threads.


In the future, in the interest of keeping list traffic focused primarily on 
Elecraft products and issues for the majproty of our readers, please -strongly- 
resist the urge to reply to an OT topic once it has gone to 5 posts. Once it 
hits ten posts do not reply at all (go off list if you feel the urge to 
continue.) Also, please do not try to always get the 'last word'.


If we see a lot of OT threads hitting the ten posting hard limit we'll be forced 
to reduce this to 5 posts as a -hard- limit.


In general, a few OT posts on not Elecraft ham radio topics are welcomed, but 
longer non-Elecraft threads should be conducted elsewhere. The majority of the 
subscribers prefer to see the vast majority of traffic on this reflector more 
directly Elecraft product related. (Questions, reports on use, problems, product 
announcements etc. )


73,

Eric
List moderator
elecraft.com

On 5/29/2014 5:13 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:

Neither Gates or Allen had bupkus to do with producing PC-DOS.
They bought it from Seattle Computer Products in 1981 and modified it to suit 
IBM.
They were forced to purchase something off the shelf because they were way 
behind producing their own.

The name PC-DOS came from IBM who licensed MS-DOS.

Another little factoid. If Gary Kildall of Digital Research had been able to 
come to an agreement with IBM when they came calling (before going to MS), 
we'd have run CP/M on the first IBM PC's.


People who know say a lot of the internals of MS-DOS look an awful lot like 
CP/M.

H.




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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Re: How Robust is the Build?

2014-05-29 Thread Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
OK folks - End of Thread. Please resist the urge to reply on OT topics once they 
have his 5 replies, regardless of how humorous they are :-)


73,

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com

On 5/28/2014 10:09 PM, Slava Baytalskiy wrote:

Hey, not all skydiving requires a manual pull!
My rig always had an AAD (Automatic Activation Device) that'll deploy at around 
1500 feet. Not that i'd ever let it...
But i think i took the battery out of it and used it on a Field Day or 
something...
__
Slava (Sal) B, W2RMS
w2...@arrl.net

On May 28, 2014, at 10:29 PM, Fred Jensen k6...@foothill.net wrote:


Don't know about rocket lunches, but NASA employed an incredibly versatile word for this ... 
anomaly.  It could mean anything from a burned out panel lamp, to FIDO needing a 
bathroom break, to the rocket landing pointy end down outside Phoenix.  Anytime we heard the word 
anomaly, we ducked for cover.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

On 5/28/2014 4:13 PM, Ross Primrose N4RP wrote:

On 5/28/2014 5:33 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

But rocket lunches are covered even if the boosters fail?

I assume you mean launches... And yes, but only if you can return the
complete KX3 with the serial number intact ;)


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[Elecraft] Official List Policy: Please limit OT postings and replies

2014-05-29 Thread Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
As evidenced by the very large number of recent OT postings, and by the flood of 
complaints to my email box, we are overloading the vast majority of Elecraft 
list readers, who primarily are interested in directly Elecraft related topics, 
with OT email.



Official New List Policy:

In the future, in the interest of keeping list traffic focused primarily on 
Elecraft products and issues for the majority of our readers, please -strongly- 
resist the urge to reply to an OT topic once it has gone to 5 posts. Once it 
hits ten posts do not reply at all (go off list if you feel the urge to 
continue.) Also, please do not try to always get the 'last word'.


If we see a lot of OT threads hitting the ten posting hard limit we'll be forced 
to reduce this to 5 posts as a -hard- limit.


In general, a few OT posts on not Elecraft ham radio topics are welcomed, but 
longer non-Elecraft threads should be conducted elsewhere. The majority of the 
subscribers prefer to see the vast majority of traffic on this reflector more 
directly Elecraft product related. (Questions, reports on use, problems, product 
announcements etc. )


73,

Eric
List moderator
elecraft.com

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[Elecraft] How to Convert Individ. Email Status to Digest?

2014-05-29 Thread Paul Grigorieff
Sorry for this type of post, but I can't figure out how to convert over
from Individual email status to Digest.  If I use Help, I am taken to a
sign up page.  If I check off Digest there and hit Send, nothing
changes.  I'm drowning in the hundreds of Elecraft posts from the board.
  Thanks a lot,
-Paul, N1HEL
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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Edward R Cole
Kind of surprised in the longevity of this topic.  But then I guess a 
lot of us started out in the stone age!
First computer (1963) used no electricity as was made by Post and had 
a bamboo slide (sliderule, of course).  Still have it!


My first exposure (1965) was in college taking a Fortran course and 
punching IBM cards at the new computer center that had a CDC3600.  A 
year later I had a student job at the center handling those cards.


Next, was running a Silent700 terminal on a mainframe at JPL  (1971) 
and later a dumb terminal on the Univac1108.  In 1978 I took a 
microprocessor design class at CalPoly Pomona and had a 6502 lab 
learning assembly language - what fun!


1982 I actually worked as a programmer (as it was) with a IBM pc, 
dual-floppy, 128Kb running DOS and writing A-Basic for a small bush 
Alaska phone company.  I had no experience and had only the reference 
books and manual, so I self-taught myself and produced a program for 
the company to download CO data from each village and process it into 
a report on subscriber usage.


My first personal computer was the Commodore 64 (1985) and I ran only 
one program that displayed ham satellite data.  That one croaked 
after a couple years when I plugged the 5-pin DIN in crooked and let 
the blue screen out!


1996 I joined the information highway with a PacBell P100 16Mb, 
win95.  I added memory to reach 40Mb and it still sits on a dusty 
shelf.  Since then its been a trail of Dell computers with win2000, 
winXP, Vista (ugh), and win8.  I even have an ancient IBM Thinkpad 
P90 with win95 still in use (runs two DOS-based programs).  I still 
use the TI-35 calculator I bought in early 1980's.


And I'm not a computer guy.  My background is microwave engineering 
and two-way radio repair.


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Kits made by KL7UW
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] How to Convert Individ. Email Status to Digest?

2014-05-29 Thread Sam Morgan

go here:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

down towards the bottom of the page click on the
[Unsubscribe or Edit] button

when the next page opens
(which is actually: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/options/elecraft )

enter your Email address and your Password
hit [Log in] button

scroll down the page that comes up
where it says *Set Digest Mode*
check the *On* button

scroll down the page and be sure to hit the
[Submit My Changes] button

all done g

On 5/29/2014 11:52 AM, Paul Grigorieff wrote:

Sorry for this type of post, but I can't figure out how to convert over
from Individual email status to Digest.  If I use Help, I am taken to a
sign up page.  If I check off Digest there and hit Send, nothing
changes.  I'm drowning in the hundreds of Elecraft posts from the board.
   Thanks a lot,
 -Paul, N1HEL


--
GB  73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan
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[Elecraft] Setting up reflector topics

2014-05-29 Thread Bill Wiehe via Elecraft
How do you set up topics you want to receive messages on? 
When I go to try and set upWhich topic categories would you like to subscribe 
to?  I see nothing that lets me select the topics. 
Please advise.
Thanks,
Bill - W0BBI 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 issues - new modules installed - 250 Hz filter, DVK, KXV3A

2014-05-29 Thread Bruce Beford
Mark-
I never saw anything come back to me, or go to the Elecraft reflector on
this. Did you manage to get this resolved? before the contest?
Bruce N1RX

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bruce
Beford
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 7:38 AM
To: 'Mark Pride'
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 issues - new modules installed - 250 Hz
filter,DVK, KXV3A

I forgot to mention- the DSP error messages- you had to disassemble the
front panel assembly to install the DVK. You may not have that stack
properly re-assembled, leading to some of the DSx error messages. You may
have to remove the front panel assembly again, to inspect your work there.
73,
Bruce N1RX

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mark
Pride via Elecraft
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 7:22 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 issues - new modules installed - 250 Hz filter,
DVK,KXV3A

Hello all,

Ran into some issues with the K3 after adding some new boards.  Here is the
sequence of screens on the radio as I move to get it going again.

Few more experiences - And added some more notes in the first email below.

On SSB, it transmits okay, no ERR on screen.  When I just send a short
message on CW, it transmits, then the next time it shows this series of ERR
messages.  By pushing any button on the radio, it returns to normal screen,
showing VFO A and B (smaller print size), then transmit again, ERR TxF and
no output power after that first burst of RF.

I have swapped power supplies - same problem.

Let me describe the sequence of events and what I see on the screen.


Power up: E 020202 (main VFO line)
under that:  ERR DSE (VFO B info)

E 020202
under that call sign  (VFO B info) scrolling

E 020202
under that:  ERR DSE

Press the A/B button (actually press any button)

14.232.32
under that ERR DS3

Press the A/B button

14.232.32
under that ERR BP2

Press the A/B button

14.232.32
ERR BP3 (pressing the button changes the type of ERR showing?  DS3, BP2,
BP3, IF2, etc)

Press A/B button

14.232.32
ERR IF2

Press A/B button

14.032.00
under that 14.232.32 

Transmit on CW (short burst - then nothing - no more TX)

14.032.00
ERR TxF

No transmitter power after that first burst of RF.



Had some trouble getting the radio to be read by the N1MM program, but
eventually got that going.  But does not appear to be stable, frequent N1MM
message saying to retry connecting the radio, etc.
 
Regards,
Mark, K1RX
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Re: [Elecraft] Setting up reflector topics

2014-05-29 Thread WILLIS COOKE via Elecraft
Bill, I don't know of any such utility on the reflector.  You need to use an 
email program that furnishes that utility if you want it.  I would not 
recommend it because threads seem to morph into all sorts of topics and you 
will miss a lot of content if you pre-sort.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ  Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


On Thursday, May 29, 2014 3:37 PM, Bill Wiehe via Elecraft 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote:
 


How do you set up topics you want to receive messages on? 
When I go to try and set upWhich topic categories would you like to subscribe 
to?  I see nothing that lets me select the topics. 
Please advise.
Thanks,
Bill - W0BBI 
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Re: [Elecraft] Setting up reflector topics

2014-05-29 Thread Gary W. Hvizdak
Bill (W0BBI) wrote ...

How do you set up topics you want to receive messages on?

--- - - - ---

Hi Bill,

Long answer … Did you see original “Blues Brothers” movie?  Do you
recall the line “We have both kinds … Country and Western.”

Will in a similar spirit, you have two choices … all or none.

73,
Gary  KI4GGX

P.S.  I don’t receive Reflector post via email.  Rather, I read them on the
server.


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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Sfbonk via Elecraft
The IBM 5100, definitely a desktop (check out the pictures of these), which did 
basic and APL was out in 1975.

W3OU Steve

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Lewis Phelps l...@n6lew.us
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 5:08 pm
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age


 Someone wrote:
 Desktop computers did not come into being until the advent of the IBM PC in 
the 1980s.

Nah.  Heathkit H89 came out in 1979.  “All-in-One” desktop computer. Z-80 
processor. CP/M OS addressed 64 KB and used 39 kb of that total. two 5” floppy 
drives (dual sided 800k) as an option. Later, somebody came up with a card that 
plugged into the 5” drive slot and gave 128K of silicon hard drive. Now THAT 
was 
advanced for its era. Booting from that was faster than lightning, for its 
time. 


And do not forget the Ohio Scientific Instruments OSI Challenger 4P….

Lew




Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 
Yaesu FT-7800 
l...@n6lew.us
www.n6lew.us

Sent from my Mac Pro 256-Array Supercomputer (9.42 teraflops)




On May 28, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Kevin Cozens ke...@ve3syb.ca wrote:


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Re: [Elecraft] Computers in the Stone Age

2014-05-29 Thread Sanger, Joseph
I bought MBasic on a hot pink paper tape directly from Mr. Gates - i happened 
to bump into him at one of the first 4 computer stores on the west coast  
1975 or 1976 ... It cost all of $12.00.  Loading it took a very steady hand and 
about 10-15 minutes of manually pulling through a little tape reader device ... 
Into my Altair 8800.  Fun times.

WB2SSB

Joseph Sanger, M.D.
Director, Radiology Informatics
NYU Langone Medical Center
Room D-107
Bellevue C  D Building
Phone: 212 263-3434

 On May 28, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Tony Estep estept...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Jack Brindle jackbrin...@me.com wrote:
 
 ... the MITS facility in New Mexico...
 
 
 I bought a copy of Micro-Soft Basic ($400!) and called the New Mexico
 number to get some help on a new function in one of the subsequent
 releases. They had no help desk; my call was answered by Bill Gates himself.
 
 Tony KT0NY
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft's linux utilities - somewhat OT, or maybe not

2014-05-29 Thread Bill Frantz
I am working on a low power computer system for field day. My 
approach is a Raspberry Pi board with a 12V HDMI display from 
Adafruit and a SignaLink for digital modes. The Pi should have 
enough horsepower for rig control and logging, but it may not 
hack fldigi. In that case I can go to more powerful boards like 
the Beaglebone.


I have a strong suspicion that the Elecraft utilities Linux 
versions will not run on the Pi because it is based on an ARM 
processor and they are built for Intel x86 architecture. I am 
reluctant to ask Elecraft to spin versions for the various ARM 
processors, but might so bold as to ask for source to spin my own.


My plan is to have my Mac handy with the working utilities and 
the configuration files in case I need to reload the K3 or P3. 
It's internal battery should last long enough in that 
application so I won't have to worry about its high current draw.


BTW - The HDMI display would look really spiffy connected to a 
PX3. It will require some kind of adapter if the interface is SVGA.


Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

-
Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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