Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
These were very popular in Kenya where black-outs, drop-outs, brown-outs, high surges and spikes were common: http://www.sollatek.com/product-list/voltshield/ http://www.sollatek.com/product-list/voltsafe/ Many fridges, freezers and all household equipment is saved using the plug-in units. It was typical for the mains to read 400V (240V nom) when the power returned after a drop out and the little units would just hold off the load till those passed and a timer dropped back on. David G3UNA - Original Message - From: AG0N-3055 mcduf...@ag0n.net To: elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 11:59:00 -0600, Richard Fjeld wrote: I built a box with an AC relay that locks up through it's own contacts. Did the same thing, except that the path also goes through a timer relay that doesn't energize the AC path relay until power has been on for at least 30 seconds without interruption. Gary -- http://ag0n.net 3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
We used to discuss this topic at work. Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. (I'm not defending this). Also, it was brought out that MOV surge protectors are for a very short duration spike, of which lightning is not. Many have a fuse in series with the MOV for that reason. While this may come across as negative, surge protectors have their place. Back, circa late 70's- 80's, a momentary open on the power caused a high voltage spike on the AC. It took out hundreds, or more, TV's and Ham Radio electronics in that neighborhood. I built a box with an AC relay that locks up through it's own contacts. I have two outlet boxes attached to it. I have a momentary button to bring the relay up, and one to release it. If a 'hit' should occur on the power the relay will release and open the AC circuit to my equipment. Should the AC restore with high voltage, my equipment plugged into it will not be connected. I have a UPS to feed my K3 power supply so I can shut the K3 down normally. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm To: Erik Basilier Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection I cannot comment on your particular 'high-leg' entry system - mine is plain vanilla 240 volt single phase with neutral. I can only speak from my experience. I have an entry panel surge protection device in my power entrance panel. I also use local surge protectors (Tripplite) at the ham station, and the computers have UPSs that offer surge protection. All the hamshack runs off the same AC receptacle. We had a close lightning event last summer and there were no incidences of damage on the AC side, although all the GFCI breakers tripped. The wired Ethernet devices were not so fortunate, I lost a router, 2 8 port switches, an access point, a NAS storage device, and 4 computers after that event, that did not mention the Ethernet connected network printer that lost its Ethernet capability, but still worked with a USB connection - all apparently due to the surge coming in over the Ethernet cables. Fortunately, no data was lost, the devices did not work due to damaged network ports. So the AC protection did work, but the unprotected Ethernet devices did not survive. The 'whole house' protection did work. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/31/2013 6:42 PM, Erik Basilier wrote: I am aware that the surge protected power strips I use are poor protection, because the shack uses more than one circuit from the panel, and I also have one power strip chained from another. The solution, I understand, is whole house surge protection located at the service entrance. I am currently very busy building a room addition to the house. This includes electrical installation work, and I had the idea of getting whole house surge protection installed at the same time. Busy as I was, I didn't take enough time to make sure to buy the correct unit. My house has a kind of 3-phase system called Split Phase High Leg Delta. This system adds a 3rd phase to the residential wiring that normally doesn't have it. The purpose in my case is for a 3-phase air conditioner. With this system, the 3rd leg coming into the panel has a higher voltage, 208 V, relative to the neutral. Not taking this into account I bought a protector Leviton 51120-3 that is designed for regular 3-phase wiring, which has only 120 V between each phase and neutral. I believe if I hooked it up to all 3 phases coming into the panel, it would fry the protector. I have now identified another protector 32412-DS3 from Leviton that I believe is right for my application. It costs about $600 vs. only $225 for the one I bought. There is another difference. The one I bought includes a warranty not only for the device but also for a high dollar amount worth of electronics such as ham gear. The unit I should have bought has a warranty only for the device itself and not for connected electronics. My questions for the group: Do you have whole house surge protection installed, especially with a high leg electrical system? If so, what particular device did you install? Is there any manufacturer out there that offers a protector for high leg installations with a warranty that covers connected electronics? Maybe at a price better than $600? I plan to put the unit I bought up for sale and hope to get $150 (never hooked up, still in shrinkwrap). However, another possibility comes to mind. The electrical service panel where I intend to install the new protector actually feeds another older panel inside the house that runs the older wiring, including most of the shack
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
We used to discuss this topic at work. Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. (I'm not defending this). You're right in not defending that stance. It might cover everything on that leg if_and_only_if the leg in question was an ideal conductor and was immune to EM fields. Real life wiring just doesn't work that way. Mark AD5SS On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Richard Fjeld rpfj...@embarqmail.com wrote: We used to discuss this topic at work. Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. (I'm not defending this). Also, it was brought out that MOV surge protectors are for a very short duration spike, of which lightning is not. Many have a fuse in series with the MOV for that reason. While this may come across as negative, surge protectors have their place. Back, circa late 70's- 80's, a momentary open on the power caused a high voltage spike on the AC. It took out hundreds, or more, TV's and Ham Radio electronics in that neighborhood. I built a box with an AC relay that locks up through it's own contacts. I have two outlet boxes attached to it. I have a momentary button to bring the relay up, and one to release it. If a 'hit' should occur on the power the relay will release and open the AC circuit to my equipment. Should the AC restore with high voltage, my equipment plugged into it will not be connected. I have a UPS to feed my K3 power supply so I can shut the K3 down normally. Rich, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
On 2/1/2013 10:21 AM, Mark Bayern wrote: Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. Nope. ANY shunt mode device (MOV) operates by conducting the spike to the green wire or the neutral. The resulting current raises the voltage on the green wire (which is connected to the chassis of the equipment plugged into the protected outlet) to some very high value, depending on the spike that sets it off. In the case of lightning, this can be a lot. Now, consider equipment connected to two different power strips, with or without an MOV, or to different locations, or to another ground. ALL of those other points will be at a different potential as a result of seeing the same spike, and again, in the case of lightning, that can be a VERY large difference. it is the DIFFERENCE in potential from one piece of gear to the other that fries those Ethernet ports, and it would also fry signal interconnect circuitry for audio and video. THIS is why MOVs are a really bad idea on branch circuits. Those of us working in pro audio have LOTS of interconnected equipment, often at widely separated points, so we learned all of this the hard way nearly 20 years ago. Our solution has been to use SERIES-MODE Surge Protectors, and that has been quite effective. SurgeX and Brick Wall are the only two companies I know of that have licensed the series mode patent. Their products are not cheap, but they work. I have SurgeX protectors on all of my ham gear, computers, and audio/video gear. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
The problem is it is getting hard to find decent-quality outlet strips that DON'T have surge protection built in. I am currently building up a second studio for KBBF-FM, a community bi-lingual station here in Santa Rosa. I wanted an outlet strip with some sockets spaced far enough apart to accommodate several wall transformers. I found the perfect device at Home Depot, but it has surge protection built in. Should I crack it open and remove the MOVs? Alan N1AL On 2/1/2013 12:02 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 2/1/2013 10:21 AM, Mark Bayern wrote: Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. Nope. ANY shunt mode device (MOV) operates by conducting the spike to the green wire or the neutral. The resulting current raises the voltage on the green wire (which is connected to the chassis of the equipment plugged into the protected outlet) to some very high value, depending on the spike that sets it off. In the case of lightning, this can be a lot. Now, consider equipment connected to two different power strips, with or without an MOV, or to different locations, or to another ground. ALL of those other points will be at a different potential as a result of seeing the same spike, and again, in the case of lightning, that can be a VERY large difference. it is the DIFFERENCE in potential from one piece of gear to the other that fries those Ethernet ports, and it would also fry signal interconnect circuitry for audio and video. THIS is why MOVs are a really bad idea on branch circuits. Those of us working in pro audio have LOTS of interconnected equipment, often at widely separated points, so we learned all of this the hard way nearly 20 years ago. Our solution has been to use SERIES-MODE Surge Protectors, and that has been quite effective. SurgeX and Brick Wall are the only two companies I know of that have licensed the series mode patent. Their products are not cheap, but they work. I have SurgeX protectors on all of my ham gear, computers, and audio/video gear. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 11:59:00 -0600, Richard Fjeld wrote: I built a box with an AC relay that locks up through it's own contacts. Did the same thing, except that the path also goes through a timer relay that doesn't energize the AC path relay until power has been on for at least 30 seconds without interruption. Gary -- http://ag0n.net 3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055 NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Alan, It should be a simple matter to open the strip and clip out the MOVs (unless the construction is glued plastic). 73, Don W3FPR On 2/1/2013 4:43 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: The problem is it is getting hard to find decent-quality outlet strips that DON'T have surge protection built in. I am currently building up a second studio for KBBF-FM, a community bi-lingual station here in Santa Rosa. I wanted an outlet strip with some sockets spaced far enough apart to accommodate several wall transformers. I found the perfect device at Home Depot, but it has surge protection built in. Should I crack it open and remove the MOVs? Alan N1AL On 2/1/2013 12:02 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 2/1/2013 10:21 AM, Mark Bayern wrote: Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. Nope. ANY shunt mode device (MOV) operates by conducting the spike to the green wire or the neutral. The resulting current raises the voltage on the green wire (which is connected to the chassis of the equipment plugged into the protected outlet) to some very high value, depending on the spike that sets it off. In the case of lightning, this can be a lot. Now, consider equipment connected to two different power strips, with or without an MOV, or to different locations, or to another ground. ALL of those other points will be at a different potential as a result of seeing the same spike, and again, in the case of lightning, that can be a VERY large difference. it is the DIFFERENCE in potential from one piece of gear to the other that fries those Ethernet ports, and it would also fry signal interconnect circuitry for audio and video. THIS is why MOVs are a really bad idea on branch circuits. Those of us working in pro audio have LOTS of interconnected equipment, often at widely separated points, so we learned all of this the hard way nearly 20 years ago. Our solution has been to use SERIES-MODE Surge Protectors, and that has been quite effective. SurgeX and Brick Wall are the only two companies I know of that have licensed the series mode patent. Their products are not cheap, but they work. I have SurgeX protectors on all of my ham gear, computers, and audio/video gear. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Thanks Don. It's a metal case held together with screws, so there should be no trouble opening it up to clip out the MOVs. The question is whether I should do that. You pay extra for them, after all. :=) Alan N1AL On 2/1/2013 2:44 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Alan, It should be a simple matter to open the strip and clip out the MOVs (unless the construction is glued plastic). 73, Don W3FPR On 2/1/2013 4:43 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: The problem is it is getting hard to find decent-quality outlet strips that DON'T have surge protection built in. I am currently building up a second studio for KBBF-FM, a community bi-lingual station here in Santa Rosa. I wanted an outlet strip with some sockets spaced far enough apart to accommodate several wall transformers. I found the perfect device at Home Depot, but it has surge protection built in. Should I crack it open and remove the MOVs? Alan N1AL On 2/1/2013 12:02 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 2/1/2013 10:21 AM, Mark Bayern wrote: Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. Nope. ANY shunt mode device (MOV) operates by conducting the spike to the green wire or the neutral. The resulting current raises the voltage on the green wire (which is connected to the chassis of the equipment plugged into the protected outlet) to some very high value, depending on the spike that sets it off. In the case of lightning, this can be a lot. Now, consider equipment connected to two different power strips, with or without an MOV, or to different locations, or to another ground. ALL of those other points will be at a different potential as a result of seeing the same spike, and again, in the case of lightning, that can be a VERY large difference. it is the DIFFERENCE in potential from one piece of gear to the other that fries those Ethernet ports, and it would also fry signal interconnect circuitry for audio and video. THIS is why MOVs are a really bad idea on branch circuits. Those of us working in pro audio have LOTS of interconnected equipment, often at widely separated points, so we learned all of this the hard way nearly 20 years ago. Our solution has been to use SERIES-MODE Surge Protectors, and that has been quite effective. SurgeX and Brick Wall are the only two companies I know of that have licensed the series mode patent. Their products are not cheap, but they work. I have SurgeX protectors on all of my ham gear, computers, and audio/video gear. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Jim, If I re-wire the outlet strip, would it make sense to leave an MOV connected from hot to neutral as long as there are none connecting to ground? There could still be a high voltage spike on the ground due to the impedance of the common path of ground and neutral between the breaker box and earth, but it should be a lot less than all the wiring leading up to the breaker box. Alan On 2/1/2013 1:43 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: The problem is it is getting hard to find decent-quality outlet strips that DON'T have surge protection built in. I am currently building up a second studio for KBBF-FM, a community bi-lingual station here in Santa Rosa. I wanted an outlet strip with some sockets spaced far enough apart to accommodate several wall transformers. I found the perfect device at Home Depot, but it has surge protection built in. Should I crack it open and remove the MOVs? Alan N1AL On 2/1/2013 12:02 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 2/1/2013 10:21 AM, Mark Bayern wrote: Someone brought out the fact that a power strip or some other device with a surge protector built in should cover everything on that particular leg. It's a parallel circuit. Nope. ANY shunt mode device (MOV) operates by conducting the spike to the green wire or the neutral. The resulting current raises the voltage on the green wire (which is connected to the chassis of the equipment plugged into the protected outlet) to some very high value, depending on the spike that sets it off. In the case of lightning, this can be a lot. Now, consider equipment connected to two different power strips, with or without an MOV, or to different locations, or to another ground. ALL of those other points will be at a different potential as a result of seeing the same spike, and again, in the case of lightning, that can be a VERY large difference. it is the DIFFERENCE in potential from one piece of gear to the other that fries those Ethernet ports, and it would also fry signal interconnect circuitry for audio and video. THIS is why MOVs are a really bad idea on branch circuits. Those of us working in pro audio have LOTS of interconnected equipment, often at widely separated points, so we learned all of this the hard way nearly 20 years ago. Our solution has been to use SERIES-MODE Surge Protectors, and that has been quite effective. SurgeX and Brick Wall are the only two companies I know of that have licensed the series mode patent. Their products are not cheap, but they work. I have SurgeX protectors on all of my ham gear, computers, and audio/video gear. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
On 2/1/2013 1:43 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: Should I crack it open and remove the MOVs? If you put a SurgeX or Brick Wall box between them and the breaker panel, they'll never see a surge, so no problem. Otherwise you should remove the MOVs. BTW -- many computers, computer accessories, copy machines, etc. come loaded with MOVs too, and they can cause the same problem. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
On 2/1/2013 4:30 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: If I re-wire the outlet strip, would it make sense to leave an MOV connected from hot to neutral as long as there are none connecting to ground? No, that can also do some mischief, although less. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Well, a lot of things lead me to believe that absolute protection is not to be expected with any design, and warranties are likely worthless even if they seem to apply. Am I wrong to assume that lightning mostly differs from other surge sources in total energy for a direct or close hit? In other words, if there is a lightning strike that is not direct or very close, its total energy as well as rise time and duration would not be very different from other surges, and a whole house surge suppressor that can handle other surges would be equally helpful for the one generated by lightning. I may be wrong about the pulse shape being similar, but my first guess stems from the assumption that the wires between the lightning strike site and the house play a major role in shaping the pulse. Anyway if my assumption is correct, it makes sense to get whole house protection not as guaranteed lightning protection but because it would significantly improve the odds of avoiding electronics damage due to lightning. Dave's comment also gives me the idea to call the local utility and ask if they offer whole house protection at a better price than the $600 unit I identified. 73, Erik K7TV David Gilbert wrote: The fine print on the whole house system offered by my electric utility specifically exempts lightning surges from protection. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Gary, My house was built in 1954, 59 years ago. At the old panel (the only one until I added a new one and new underground wires from the pole), there is already a protector, a Stedi Volt from General Energy Controls, Inc. in Chambersburg, Pa. It has a red indicator light on it (I have never seen it lit). Outside at the 3-phase AC unit is another protector of the same kind, but with 2 lights. (Why not 3? Maybe there was no unit available to accommodate the high leg?) The plastic lenses of the lights have deteriorated severely; the label is unreadable and the box is rusted. This all suggests to me that the protectors are as old as the house, and I have to assume that the MOV's are used up and useless by now. That has contributed to my interest in installing a new protector. I wonder though if I should make an effort to remove those old ones. BTW the old protector by the A/C was never close to the old panel, but I seem to remember that the A/C was not fed through the panel at all. Now it is fed through the new panel which is located several feet from the A/C. Thus the old protector for the A/C is not very close to the new panel, so even if the old protector were to be functional, I believe its location does not comply with current installation guidelines. I am still interested in whether I can find a reasonably priced unit, but based on your comment I also want to ask my insurance agent what is covered and pricing for added coverage if applicable. 73, Erik K7TV Gary wrote: I've been using them for some 40 years. A tidbit of info for you. General Electric units used to cost $30 each. I was charged over $120 for the last one I bought. When I questioned it, I was told that the prices shot up when the marketing department got hold of the product. That was many years ago. I paid no attention to the warranty. I don't expect them to do a thing about it if there is any damage. I just bought the best protection I could afford at the time. I wouldn't pay today's prices you quote. Insurance is cheaper. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Bill, Thanks for the tip; I had not seen those. However, off the top of my head, with the new addition I will have about 30 circuits, so putting those devices on each circuit would cost a lot more than even the $600 whole house unit I was looking at. 73, Erik K7TV Bill K9HZ wrote: http://www.drillspot.com/products/120821/square_d_qo2175sb_qo_surgebreaker_s econdary_surge_protector I use these at all of my locations... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
New construction requires ARC protection breakers everywhere in addition to GFI breakers in wet spots. The new ARC breakers are hyper-sensitive, so perhaps some of the risk of damage may be reduced where they have been installed? Thanks for the tip; I had not seen those. However, off the top of my head, with the new addition I will have about 30 circuits, so putting those devices on each circuit would cost a lot more than even the $600 whole house unit I was looking at. 73, Erik K7TV Bill K9HZ wrote: http://www.drillspot.com/products/120821/square_d_qo2175sb_qo_surgebreaker_s econdary_surge_protector I use these at all of my locations... -- Thanks! 73, KD4E.com David Colburn nevils-station.com I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Don, I also have Tripplite power strips in the shack, which I got many years ago when I was impressed with their warranty for connected equipment. I use a couple of them chained to provide enough outlets, and then unprotected units chained off of that to provide even more outlets. Some of the unprotected outlets are fed through a new circuit from the new panel that I put in along with a 220 V line for the PA. As I was looking to buy even more Tripplites to have everything protected, I called Tripplite for advice, and also grilled them on the warranty terms. That is when I first learnt that the warranty is void if there is any chaining of strips, and also if another circuit is involved with the same equipment, tied together even by a ground strap or an audio cable, etc. A little later I came across the advice on this reflector (probably by Jim) that whole house protection is superior and power strips with MOV's may even be harmful. I don't have any UPS's. The newer Tripplite protectors had network and phone line protection built in. Now I don't want to waste money buying any more of those expensive protectors. I figure the first priority is to get a whole house protector. I believe I should put all the ham gear and computers on the new circuit. I will need two levels of outlet strips. Maybe the first level could be one of the old Tripplite's which would provide equal MOV protecton to everything, but I need to think more about whether that is right. Anyway, it seems desirable to add independent protection for network connection and maybe phone line. I need to find suitable units at reasonable price. Having a UPS for computers seems very desirable, but if it has built-in MOV on the input side it should maybe be removed based on what others have said. 73, Erik K7TV Don Wilhelm wrote: I cannot comment on your particular 'high-leg' entry system - mine is plain vanilla 240 volt single phase with neutral. I can only speak from my experience. I have an entry panel surge protection device in my power entrance panel. I also use local surge protectors (Tripplite) at the ham station, and the computers have UPSs that offer surge protection. All the hamshack runs off the same AC receptacle. We had a close lightning event last summer and there were no incidences of damage on the AC side, although all the GFCI breakers tripped. The wired Ethernet devices were not so fortunate, I lost a router, 2 8 port switches, an access point, a NAS storage device, and 4 computers after that event, that did not mention the Ethernet connected network printer that lost its Ethernet capability, but still worked with a USB connection - all apparently due to the surge coming in over the Ethernet cables. Fortunately, no data was lost, the devices did not work due to damaged network ports. So the AC protection did work, but the unprotected Ethernet devices did not survive. The 'whole house' protection did work. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Bob, Originally only the A/C used 3 phases. However, my room addition is for a workshop, and I am installing a couple of 3-phase outlets for possible future use in case I come across a nice big milling machine, lathe or welder for $100 J. I would also be able to move the shack to the new room and power the linear from the same outlet (picking the right 2 phases!). Like I said, this is a delta high leg system, which I believe is the same as your open leg delta. There is a second, smaller transformer on the pole. 73, Erik K7TV Bob AH7I wrote: Are you running any three phase equipment other than your air conditioner? Are you bringing any other phases to the shack or anywhere else in the house? If so, what for? Do you have a true delta or is it an open leg delta? How many transformers on the pole and are they the same size? Open leg delta has two transformers. If it was installed specifically for your air conditioner, you may have two different size transformers (the cheapest way to do it). __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Jim, I am going to study your paper before I make final decisions on my installation. 73, Erik K7TV Jim Brown wrote: There's a discussion of all of this in the Power and Grounding tutorial on my website. http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm Although it's written for audio and video professionals, everything in it applies equally to installations of all sorts, including radio. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Rich, that sounds like a good idea, especially if lightning pulses are very stretched out in time. Maybe I should copy the idea. Anyway, all my efforts right now go to the new building and the main panel, so it will be months before I do anything for the current shack, even to move everything to a single circuit and eliminate harmful MOV's, and maybe add a relay like yours. 73, Erik K7TV Rich n0ce wrote: I built a box with an AC relay that locks up through it's own contacts. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
The comment about ARC protection breakers is very timely. A few days ago I chatted with a building inspector and learnt about the new devices. However, since my permit was issued over 2 years ago he said that the old requirements apply. I also heard some negative comments about the new ARC protector units. Consequently I purchased the older breakers, and my electrician installed them yesterday, so too late for me. However the idea that the newer breakers would be helpful in cases of long surges is certainly interesting. 73, Erik K7TV Kd4e wrote: New construction requires ARC protection breakers everywhere in addition to GFI breakers in wet spots. The new ARC breakers are hyper-sensitive, so perhaps some of the risk of damage may be reduced where they have been installed? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Let me say this more clearly so there is no misunderstanding... you only use one of these per load center. So for example, I have three 200 Amp load centers in my house with 40 breakers each (600 amp feed to the house). I use one of these per load center, for a total of three. It cost me a total of $150 for the surge protectors... and I've never had a failure. I used them on my last house too, that I built in 1995 and I never had a failure there either (but I did have to replace one surge protector after a bad storm). Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ Owner - Operator Big Signal Ranch Staunton, Illinois email: b...@wjschmidt.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 10:39 PM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection Bill, Thanks for the tip; I had not seen those. However, off the top of my head, with the new addition I will have about 30 circuits, so putting those devices on each circuit would cost a lot more than even the $600 whole house unit I was looking at. 73, Erik K7TV Bill K9HZ wrote: http://www.drillspot.com/products/120821/square_d_qo2175sb_qo_surgebreaker_s econdary_surge_protector I use these at all of my locations... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
I am aware that the surge protected power strips I use are poor protection, because the shack uses more than one circuit from the panel, and I also have one power strip chained from another. The solution, I understand, is whole house surge protection located at the service entrance. I am currently very busy building a room addition to the house. This includes electrical installation work, and I had the idea of getting whole house surge protection installed at the same time. Busy as I was, I didn't take enough time to make sure to buy the correct unit. My house has a kind of 3-phase system called Split Phase High Leg Delta. This system adds a 3rd phase to the residential wiring that normally doesn't have it. The purpose in my case is for a 3-phase air conditioner. With this system, the 3rd leg coming into the panel has a higher voltage, 208 V, relative to the neutral. Not taking this into account I bought a protector Leviton 51120-3 that is designed for regular 3-phase wiring, which has only 120 V between each phase and neutral. I believe if I hooked it up to all 3 phases coming into the panel, it would fry the protector. I have now identified another protector 32412-DS3 from Leviton that I believe is right for my application. It costs about $600 vs. only $225 for the one I bought. There is another difference. The one I bought includes a warranty not only for the device but also for a high dollar amount worth of electronics such as ham gear. The unit I should have bought has a warranty only for the device itself and not for connected electronics. My questions for the group: Do you have whole house surge protection installed, especially with a high leg electrical system? If so, what particular device did you install? Is there any manufacturer out there that offers a protector for high leg installations with a warranty that covers connected electronics? Maybe at a price better than $600? I plan to put the unit I bought up for sale and hope to get $150 (never hooked up, still in shrinkwrap). However, another possibility comes to mind. The electrical service panel where I intend to install the new protector actually feeds another older panel inside the house that runs the older wiring, including most of the shack. Would it make sense to install the unit at the old panel instead of selling it? The benefit would be added protecton for ham equipment, but I see two reasons not to do it. First, this 3-phase protector would be wired up to only 2 phases at the old panel, and that means it would not be installed per the instructions, so that warranty of connected equipment would be voided. Second, my linear and a few smaller ham devices are fed from a newer circuit from the main panel, bypassing the old panel. I concluded earlier that this situation will make the protection in the power strips useless. I also believe it would make a protector located at the old panel useless. So I am pretty sure I should sell the protector I bought. It is too late to return it to the vendor. Thanks in advance for any advice. 73, Erik K7TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
Delta 3-phase systems are most definitely NOT compatible with Y-connect 3-phase systems, so you are completely correct on that point. One other point, though. I'm pretty sure that any such surge protectors are not intended to be used for lightning protection ... just is case that is one of your motivations for installing one. The fine print on the whole house system offered by my electric utility specifically exempts lightning surges from protection. 73, Dave AB7E On 1/31/2013 4:42 PM, Erik Basilier wrote: I am aware that the surge protected power strips I use are poor protection, because the shack uses more than one circuit from the panel, and I also have one power strip chained from another. The solution, I understand, is whole house surge protection located at the service entrance. I am currently very busy building a room addition to the house. This includes electrical installation work, and I had the idea of getting whole house surge protection installed at the same time. Busy as I was, I didn't take enough time to make sure to buy the correct unit. My house has a kind of 3-phase system called Split Phase High Leg Delta. This system adds a 3rd phase to the residential wiring that normally doesn't have it. The purpose in my case is for a 3-phase air conditioner. With this system, the 3rd leg coming into the panel has a higher voltage, 208 V, relative to the neutral. Not taking this into account I bought a protector Leviton 51120-3 that is designed for regular 3-phase wiring, which has only 120 V between each phase and neutral. I believe if I hooked it up to all 3 phases coming into the panel, it would fry the protector. I have now identified another protector 32412-DS3 from Leviton that I believe is right for my application. It costs about $600 vs. only $225 for the one I bought. There is another difference. The one I bought includes a warranty not only for the device but also for a high dollar amount worth of electronics such as ham gear. The unit I should have bought has a warranty only for the device itself and not for connected electronics. My questions for the group: Do you have whole house surge protection installed, especially with a high leg electrical system? If so, what particular device did you install? Is there any manufacturer out there that offers a protector for high leg installations with a warranty that covers connected electronics? Maybe at a price better than $600? I plan to put the unit I bought up for sale and hope to get $150 (never hooked up, still in shrinkwrap). However, another possibility comes to mind. The electrical service panel where I intend to install the new protector actually feeds another older panel inside the house that runs the older wiring, including most of the shack. Would it make sense to install the unit at the old panel instead of selling it? The benefit would be added protecton for ham equipment, but I see two reasons not to do it. First, this 3-phase protector would be wired up to only 2 phases at the old panel, and that means it would not be installed per the instructions, so that warranty of connected equipment would be voided. Second, my linear and a few smaller ham devices are fed from a newer circuit from the main panel, bypassing the old panel. I concluded earlier that this situation will make the protection in the power strips useless. I also believe it would make a protector located at the old panel useless. So I am pretty sure I should sell the protector I bought. It is too late to return it to the vendor. Thanks in advance for any advice. 73, Erik K7TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:42:04 -0700, Erik Basilier wrote: Erik, My questions for the group: Do you have whole house surge protection installed, especially with a high leg electrical system? My answer won't help you a bit, because, as you already know, you have an abnormal installation. However, I do use whole house and I use more than one. There is one at the entrance where the buried cable comes out of the ground and enters the house. There is a second one at the old entrance that is fed directly by the new underground entrance via long line. Third, there is another one located at the shack 230 line that I ran from the old entrance when I first bought the house. All of these units are standard 220-0-220 units, none are poly-phase. I've been using them for some 40 years. A tidbit of info for you. General Electric units used to cost $30 each. I was charged over $120 for the last one I bought. When I questioned it, I was told that the prices shot up when the marketing department got hold of the product. That was many years ago. I paid no attention to the warranty. I don't expect them to do a thing about it if there is any damage. I just bought the best protection I could afford at the time. I wouldn't pay today's prices you quote. Insurance is cheaper. Would it make sense to install the unit at the old panel instead of selling it? It does to me, but then I am not worried about the wording of the warranty, and I don't have a poly-phase installation where voltages are odd. All of the above is my OPINION, and could be incorrect technically. YMMV. Gary -- http://ag0n.net 3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055 NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
I cannot comment on your particular 'high-leg' entry system - mine is plain vanilla 240 volt single phase with neutral. I can only speak from my experience. I have an entry panel surge protection device in my power entrance panel. I also use local surge protectors (Tripplite) at the ham station, and the computers have UPSs that offer surge protection. All the hamshack runs off the same AC receptacle. We had a close lightning event last summer and there were no incidences of damage on the AC side, although all the GFCI breakers tripped. The wired Ethernet devices were not so fortunate, I lost a router, 2 8 port switches, an access point, a NAS storage device, and 4 computers after that event, that did not mention the Ethernet connected network printer that lost its Ethernet capability, but still worked with a USB connection - all apparently due to the surge coming in over the Ethernet cables. Fortunately, no data was lost, the devices did not work due to damaged network ports. So the AC protection did work, but the unprotected Ethernet devices did not survive. The 'whole house' protection did work. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/31/2013 6:42 PM, Erik Basilier wrote: I am aware that the surge protected power strips I use are poor protection, because the shack uses more than one circuit from the panel, and I also have one power strip chained from another. The solution, I understand, is whole house surge protection located at the service entrance. I am currently very busy building a room addition to the house. This includes electrical installation work, and I had the idea of getting whole house surge protection installed at the same time. Busy as I was, I didn't take enough time to make sure to buy the correct unit. My house has a kind of 3-phase system called Split Phase High Leg Delta. This system adds a 3rd phase to the residential wiring that normally doesn't have it. The purpose in my case is for a 3-phase air conditioner. With this system, the 3rd leg coming into the panel has a higher voltage, 208 V, relative to the neutral. Not taking this into account I bought a protector Leviton 51120-3 that is designed for regular 3-phase wiring, which has only 120 V between each phase and neutral. I believe if I hooked it up to all 3 phases coming into the panel, it would fry the protector. I have now identified another protector 32412-DS3 from Leviton that I believe is right for my application. It costs about $600 vs. only $225 for the one I bought. There is another difference. The one I bought includes a warranty not only for the device but also for a high dollar amount worth of electronics such as ham gear. The unit I should have bought has a warranty only for the device itself and not for connected electronics. My questions for the group: Do you have whole house surge protection installed, especially with a high leg electrical system? If so, what particular device did you install? Is there any manufacturer out there that offers a protector for high leg installations with a warranty that covers connected electronics? Maybe at a price better than $600? I plan to put the unit I bought up for sale and hope to get $150 (never hooked up, still in shrinkwrap). However, another possibility comes to mind. The electrical service panel where I intend to install the new protector actually feeds another older panel inside the house that runs the older wiring, including most of the shack. Would it make sense to install the unit at the old panel instead of selling it? The benefit would be added protecton for ham equipment, but I see two reasons not to do it. First, this 3-phase protector would be wired up to only 2 phases at the old panel, and that means it would not be installed per the instructions, so that warranty of connected equipment would be voided. Second, my linear and a few smaller ham devices are fed from a newer circuit from the main panel, bypassing the old panel. I concluded earlier that this situation will make the protection in the power strips useless. I also believe it would make a protector located at the old panel useless. So I am pretty sure I should sell the protector I bought. It is too late to return it to the vendor. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [OT} Whole House Surge Protection
On 1/31/2013 4:26 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: We had a close lightning event last summer and there were no incidences of damage on the AC side, although all the GFCI breakers tripped. The wired Ethernet devices were not so fortunate, I lost a router, 2 8 port switches, an access point, a NAS storage device, and 4 computers after that event, that did not mention the Ethernet connected network printer that lost its Ethernet capability, but still worked with a USB connection - all apparently due to the surge coming in over the Ethernet cables. Fortunately, no data was lost, the devices did not work due to damaged network ports. So the AC protection did work, but the unprotected Ethernet devices did not survive. The so-called surge protectors on your computers is what CAUSED your Ethernet devices to fry. Shunt mode (MOV) protectors on branch circuits are a REALLY bad idea. MOVs at the service entrance are a very GOOD thing -- IF the house is properly grounded. The high leg delta is simply three Delta-connected transfomers on the pole, one of which is center-tapped. There's 240V between legs, and if you have 3-phase service from high-leg Delta, you get all three phases. Customers who buy single-phase service (99.9% of homes) get both sides of the center-tapped transformer and the neutral. The (really) bad part of this is that ALL 3-phase systems have lots of harmonic current, AND the single-phase get a super heavy dose of that harmonic current on their neutral, which is the only path to ground for it. THAT'S where ground buzz comes from. A whole house surge protector has two BIG MOVs, one connected from the two sides of the 120-0-120 to neutral, which is bonded to ground in the entrance panel. For a 3-phase system, you simply need a protector with one more MOV. BTW -- the system I've described is called high leg Delta (also wild leg or red leg) because the terminal of the 3-phase system opposite the transformer is 277V to neutral. There's a discussion of all of this in the Power and Grounding tutorial on my website. http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm Although it's written for audio and video professionals, everything in it applies equally to installations of all sorts, including radio. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
