Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Fred Jensen]

Returning to the original subject ... I've found:

1.  Power, by itself, is usually one of the lesser factors in such cases 
of interference.  It does come into play in #3/#4 below


2.  Audio input level is a big contributor when it's set too high and 
you're saturating the PA.


3.  Phase noise may be the largest contributor to the interference that 
plagues many.  There was a period, around the beginning of the 21st 
Century, when some of the most popular transceivers had a fairly high 
level of transmitted phase noise.  It was commonly high in the same 
transceivers that exhibited heavy key clicks.


4.  Strong enough phase noise into a receiver can generate it's own 
phase noise internally.  My TS-850 suffered from this problem when KF6T 
was on about 2.5 km from me.  It wiped out the entire band, while on my 
K2, Jack's phase noise was only about 5 to 7 kHz wide.  Still too much, 
but nothing like the TS-850 appeared to indicate.


5.  Saturating the core of an RF transformer/balun is almost as loud a 
noise as dropping your rifle while in formation. 


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Julia Tuttle wrote on 11/26/2021 2:32 PM:

...also, I don't think there *would* be anything wrong with sharing the
factual details of a dispute if you've made a good faith effort to resolve
it privately and gotten nowhere?

"Don't say anything disparaging about anyone else in the group" can end up
papering over a *ton* of (technical or social) harm being done and
preventing it from being resolved.

73,

Julie

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021, 17:23 Richard  wrote:


It might have been derogatory if I had named the other guy as you asked me
to do; the information I shared is absolutely true. What's your problem?

Richard





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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Julia Tuttle]

...also, I don't think there *would* be anything wrong with sharing the
factual details of a dispute if you've made a good faith effort to resolve
it privately and gotten nowhere?

"Don't say anything disparaging about anyone else in the group" can end up
papering over a *ton* of (technical or social) harm being done and
preventing it from being resolved.

73,

Julie

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021, 17:23 Richard  wrote:

> It might have been derogatory if I had named the other guy as you asked me
> to do; the information I shared is absolutely true. What's your problem?
>
> Richard
>
> > On Nov 26, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Bob McGraw  wrote:
> >
> > Richard:
> >
> > May I suggest you refrain from posting derogatory or incorrect
> information on any ham radio site. It is in the best interest of all of us.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Bob, K4TAX
> >
> >
> > On 11/26/2021 3:38 PM, Richard wrote:
> >>> I'd like to know more about the high power station running FT-8 which
> is allegedly causing you issues. Who is he (call), where's he located, what
> band(s) are affected, when does this occur?
>
> >> This was about two years ago, nothing is current. Anyway, I wouldn't
> give you that information; I'm not registering a complaint. Let sleeping
> dogs lie.
> >
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Richard]

It might have been derogatory if I had named the other guy as you asked me to 
do; the information I shared is absolutely true. What's your problem?

Richard

> On Nov 26, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Bob McGraw  wrote:
> 
> Richard:
> 
> May I suggest you refrain from posting derogatory or incorrect information on 
> any ham radio site. It is in the best interest of all of us.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> On 11/26/2021 3:38 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> I'd like to know more about the high power station running FT-8 which is 
>>> allegedly causing you issues. Who is he (call), where's he located, what 
>>> band(s) are affected, when does this occur?

>> This was about two years ago, nothing is current. Anyway, I wouldn't give 
>> you that information; I'm not registering a complaint. Let sleeping dogs lie.
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Ray]

Are at this AGAIN !  
WA6VAB Ray  K3 


From: Bob McGraw
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2021 8:22 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

Does he blot out your K3S on all bands, or just if you if both are on 
the same band?

I have some avid DX'ers within 20 miles or less of my QTH, one runs a 4 
ele Steppr and legal limit.  He and I can be on the same band, both 
working FT-8 and neither knows the other is on the band.  Oh, I see his 
signal but certainly there is no receiver overload on my part.  As to 
him likely having a non-Elecraft radio...can't say.

But perhaps the other fellow is causing some serious splatter. If so, 
that may be justification to contact one of the ARRL Volunteer 
Monitors.  If the issue is verified, that report goes to HQ, and they 
review the case.  And it may get turned over to the FCC.  At which point 
I am sure he would become very interested in what his equipment is 
doing.  No one likes to justify their operation to the FCC.

If you are having overload issues, perhaps you need to review your 
receiver configuration, set-up, and operating practice.   Or just go to 
another band.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/25/2021 8:55 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Message: 21
> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 20:56:11 -0500
> From: Bill Coleman
> To: Richard
> Cc: Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8
> Message-ID:<23e7d45d-acea-486d-ab77-d8b5ac443...@arrl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> How much, power, exactly, is this fellow running?
>
>> On Nov 11, 2021, at 8:16 AM, Richard  wrote:
>>
>> There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG 
>> power with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only 
>> signal on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG 
>> POWER is on the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care 
>> what he does to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is 
>> contagious.
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[Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Bob McGraw]

Does he blot out your K3S on all bands, or just if you if both are on 
the same band?


I have some avid DX'ers within 20 miles or less of my QTH, one runs a 4 
ele Steppr and legal limit.  He and I can be on the same band, both 
working FT-8 and neither knows the other is on the band.  Oh, I see his 
signal but certainly there is no receiver overload on my part.  As to 
him likely having a non-Elecraft radio...can't say.


But perhaps the other fellow is causing some serious splatter. If so, 
that may be justification to contact one of the ARRL Volunteer 
Monitors.  If the issue is verified, that report goes to HQ, and they 
review the case.  And it may get turned over to the FCC.  At which point 
I am sure he would become very interested in what his equipment is 
doing.  No one likes to justify their operation to the FCC.


If you are having overload issues, perhaps you need to review your 
receiver configuration, set-up, and operating practice.   Or just go to 
another band.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/25/2021 8:55 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 21
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 20:56:11 -0500
From: Bill Coleman
To: Richard
Cc: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8
Message-ID:<23e7d45d-acea-486d-ab77-d8b5ac443...@arrl.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii

How much, power, exactly, is this fellow running?


On Nov 11, 2021, at 8:16 AM, Richard  wrote:

There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG power 
with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only signal 
on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG POWER is on 
the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care what he does 
to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is contagious.

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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[marvwheeler]

If you get on the same cycle, transmit 1st or 2nd, as he is using you won't
even know he is there.

Marv
KG7V


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Bill Coleman
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2021 5:56 PM
To: Richard 
Cc: Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

How much, power, exactly, is this fellow running?

> On Nov 11, 2021, at 8:16 AM, Richard  wrote:
> 
> There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG
power with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only
signal on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG
POWER is on the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care
what he does to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is
contagious.

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASELMail: aa...@arrl.net
Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
   -- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Bill Coleman]

How much, power, exactly, is this fellow running?

> On Nov 11, 2021, at 8:16 AM, Richard  wrote:
> 
> There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG power 
> with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only signal 
> on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG POWER is on 
> the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care what he does 
> to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is contagious.

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASELMail: aa...@arrl.net
Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
   -- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Wes]

Re; Tail-ending,  He who hesitates is lost, or as a Navy sky diver once told me, 
"He who hesitates shall inherit the Earth."


Classic tail-ending is calling BEFORE the last guy is finished.  So while the 
previous guy is sending 73, good bye, hasta la vista, hope to work you again 
soon, you snuggle up to the frequency, drop your call in and work the DX while 
the other guy is still sending.


This is all dependent on paying attention to how the DX handles pileups. Some 
don't like this.  So listening is always important. For example, I worked one 
major DXpedition (forgot which one but their leader was the keynote speaker at 
Visalia the next year and mentioned exactly this).  They were calling CQ on 
14.190 and the op would say, "Listening 200 to 210" and the pile would instantly 
begin screaming as he paused ever so slightly and continued "and 14.195." I 
worked him on 14.195 on one call.


Wes  N7WS
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Mike Harris via Elecraft]

I'm aware of the concept of tail-ending. I was wondering how it could be 
applied in the context of FT8 which has a proscribed timing structure.


If I'm S I wait until I see a 73 or RR73 and immediately enable TX. 
The timing is then determined by the PC clock. An exchange or not is 
determined by the inclination of the station called. Then it is down to 
chair time.


Most of the time when I come on FT8 it turns into a pile-up. I can have 
anything up to and beyond 10-15 minutes of callers backed up, that is 
the wsjt-x right hand window goes solid pink. Sounds great but can 
become very tedious. When I send 73 or RR73 running a pile the following 
period is used to determine who to call next and that isn't necessarily 
the newly decoded tail ender who sends his call once and expects to be 
answered immediately. What about the guy who has been waiting for ten 
minutes, the one I have already loaded into the TX sequence. The tail 
ender joins the list. Often, if not answered within a cycle or two they 
can be seen calling someone else, left hand window.


The issue from the sharp end is that you can see who has been hanging in 
and the choice has to be made who to make happy and who to disappoint. 
You can only hope they will continue hang in there. A LoTW using W7 in 
WY is another thing altogether. No contest.


So really it comes down to luck of the draw. However, I freely accept 
that VP8/F has a slight edge.


Running an RTTY pile, what I'm looking for is a clean pair of tram lines 
and will happily hop about the audio passband if necessary. Not running 
a multi channel decoder, unlike FT8, means that I have no prior 
knowledge who the caller is until I land on them. What works for me 
running a pile, the tricks of the trade if you will, also seems to work 
for others and after a few minutes watching and learning this has 
enabled me make the QSO with a feeling of smug satisfaction whilst 
others are still blindly calling without success. A modest #266 (RTTY) 
DXCC leads me to believe I'm doing something right.


On topic. All this has been achieved using K3 #00345 much modded and 
upgraded. A bigger investment over time than a shiny K4.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO



On 12/11/2021 10:56, Andy Durbin wrote:

"Please explain "effectively tail-end" using FT8."

To tail end is, at least in my terminology, to call a station at the end of 
their current QSO without waiting for them to call CQ.

To tail-end effectively means, at least in my terminology, to call the station 
without causing QRM to their current QSO and have them answer the call.

"Using FT8" should need no explanation.

One essential aspect of tail ending effectively without causing QRM is to NEVER 
call on the current QSO frequency.

73,
Andy k3wyc

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[Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[John Harper]

You are confusing "operating practice" with "skill". A skill is something
that takes time & practice to learn. The poor operating procedures you
describe could be solved with nothing more than an explanation to the
offender.

John AE5X
https://ae5x.blogspot.com

Andy, k3wyc:

>FT mode skill is not the same as CQ or RTTY skill but to deny there is a skill 
>to effectively using FT modes is, at best, short sighted.
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Ed W0YK]

Effective tail-ending is inherent in FTn if transmitted on a clear frequency 
other than the target station's during the current QSO.  Unlike CW, SSB or RTTY 
where timing and skill are required. 73,Ed W0YK
 Original message From: Mike Harris via Elecraft 
 Date: 11/12/21  03:24  (GMT-08:00) To: 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8 Please 
explain "effectively tail-end" using FT8.Regards,Mike VP8NOOn 11/11/2021 21:03, 
Andy Durbin wrote:> "I have DXCC on RTTY and refuse to add FT QSOs to my total. 
 They are different things.  RTTY requires some skill."> > You seem to imply 
that FT modes require no skill.  I disagree.  There are complete LIDS using the 
modes and there are others who carefully pick TX frequencies to avoid QRM to a 
QSO in progress and time their transmissions to effectively tail-end without 
causing 
QRM.__Elecraft 
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Bill Steffey]

NEVER call on the current QSO frequency.

which can easily be done by looking at the waterfall... and moving the 
TX ( red)  bracket to a open area on the waterfall...


which, while not guaranteeing the freq is open at the other end, at 
least it's open at your side


On 11/12/2021 8:56 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:

"Please explain "effectively tail-end" using FT8."

To tail end is, at least in my terminology, to call a station at the end of 
their current QSO without waiting for them to call CQ.

To tail-end effectively means, at least in my terminology, to call the station 
without causing QRM to their current QSO and have them answer the call.

"Using FT8" should need no explanation.

One essential aspect of tail ending effectively without causing QRM is to

73,
Andy k3wyc



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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Wes]

I figured I'd get somebody riled up.  I will give you that a modicum of skill is 
useful in frequency selection.  However, when DXing, the DX station sets the 
sequence, you don't get to pick it.  So the best you can do is to not transmit 
once in a while so you can see the competing callers (if skip allows it). You 
can easily have propagation where you don't hear any of the other callers, so 
that "skill" is really "chance". With F/H I even lose the right to set my TX 
frequency.  On more than one occasion I've had the fox copy me, move me to his 
frequency only to NOT copy me again.  Then I start over.


Forgive me for not understanding tail ending on a mode where the protocol sets 
the timing.


Contrast to traditional RTTY.  What's common, a machine encodes and decodes the 
message.  Otherwise, on RTTY I determine the message content, when to call, 
where to call and I have control of RX QRM fighting features and can run 
multiple decoders.


Just to keep this somewhat Elecraft related I will say that even though I've 
moved to a Kenwood TS-890 for a number of reasons, my K3 and K3S are the better 
RTTY radios.


Wes  N7WS

 On 11/11/2021 5:03 PM, Andy Durbin wrote:

"I have DXCC on RTTY and refuse to add FT QSOs to my total.  They are different 
things.  RTTY requires some skill."

You seem to imply that FT modes require no skill.  I disagree.  There are 
complete LIDS using the modes and there are others who carefully pick TX 
frequencies to avoid QRM to a QSO in progress and time their transmissions to 
effectively tail-end without causing QRM.

There are LIDS who work DX and then call CQ on the DX frequency.  Noone with 
any understanding of the mode would do that.  FT8 is not blast and log.  It 
does require some thought and it's obvious some on the bands didn't give it any.

FT mode skill is not the same as CQ or RTTY skill but to deny there is a skill 
to effectively using FT modes is, at best, short sighted.

73,
Andy, k3wyc


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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Andy Durbin]

"Please explain "effectively tail-end" using FT8."

To tail end is, at least in my terminology, to call a station at the end of 
their current QSO without waiting for them to call CQ.

To tail-end effectively means, at least in my terminology, to call the station 
without causing QRM to their current QSO and have them answer the call.

"Using FT8" should need no explanation.

One essential aspect of tail ending effectively without causing QRM is to NEVER 
call on the current QSO frequency.

73,
Andy k3wyc



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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Mike Harris via Elecraft]

Please explain "effectively tail-end" using FT8.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 11/11/2021 21:03, Andy Durbin wrote:

"I have DXCC on RTTY and refuse to add FT QSOs to my total.  They are different 
things.  RTTY requires some skill."

You seem to imply that FT modes require no skill.  I disagree.  There are 
complete LIDS using the modes and there are others who carefully pick TX 
frequencies to avoid QRM to a QSO in progress and time their transmissions to 
effectively tail-end without causing QRM.

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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Andy Durbin]

"I have DXCC on RTTY and refuse to add FT QSOs to my total.  They are different 
things.  RTTY requires some skill."

You seem to imply that FT modes require no skill.  I disagree.  There are 
complete LIDS using the modes and there are others who carefully pick TX 
frequencies to avoid QRM to a QSO in progress and time their transmissions to 
effectively tail-end without causing QRM.

There are LIDS who work DX and then call CQ on the DX frequency.  Noone with 
any understanding of the mode would do that.  FT8 is not blast and log.  It 
does require some thought and it's obvious some on the bands didn't give it any.

FT mode skill is not the same as CQ or RTTY skill but to deny there is a skill 
to effectively using FT modes is, at best, short sighted.

73,
Andy, k3wyc


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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Bill Lederer]

This is what I do when running SO2R on FT8/FT4. I ensure that both are on
the same cycle.

This insures no intertransmitter interference.

w8lv

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:56 AM Bob McGraw  wrote:

> One very effective solution is to configure WSJT-X to receive when he is
> receiving and transmit when he is transmitting.  Thus you would never
> know he exists.
>
> I agree, abuse of power is not a good thing.  It is more a case where
> hams have more money than good operating skills.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 11/11/2021 10:32 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> > Message: 16
> > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:16:42 -0500
> > From: Richard
> > To: Elecraft Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8
> > Message-ID:<3e58a528-f611-40ee-92ab-0bab194f4...@comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG
> power with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the
> only signal on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his
> BIG POWER is on the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't
> care what he does to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is
> contagious.
> >
> > On the other hand, I've made several 10,000 to 11,000 mile Australian
> contacts with 15 watts and a hex beam at 30 feet.
> >
> > Richard
>
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-- 
--w8lvn--
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Wes]

Welcome to the land of unintended consequences.  To my personal dismay these 
modes have taken off in the DX chasing biz.  (I have a friend who has been on 
many many big-time DXpeditions and is giddy about using FT8, since the DX end 
can sit back and drink coffee). Show me a DXer who doesn't want to break the 
pile up first and you'll be showing an anomaly. Contesters are the same.


Fox and Hound requires the lower frequencies so tuning the dial higher isn't an 
option.  I also suspect that these guys are using limited BW and don't hear the 
higher tones anyway.


If Joe wants to propose things (a sub-band is unenforceable*) why not a separate 
award for FT DXCC?  I have DXCC on RTTY and refuse to add FT QSOs to my total.  
They are different things.  RTTY requires some skill.


* During the recent HD8R DXpedition they operated on 60-meters; on "channels" 
not available to US hams.  Furthermore they operated split, with their listen 
frequency even further from a legal channel.  With a little forethought they 
could have listened down instead of up and I could have easily worked them.  But 
I did not; however, this didn't stop some lids from working them out-of-band.


Wes  N7WS


On 11/10/2021 9:03 PM, Richard wrote:

I had a discussion about this sort of madness with Joe Taylor, creator of FT8 
and WSJT-X. Here's what he had to say about it:

"Hi Richard,

"Yes, it's annoying when people engage in a QRO arms race to make more QSOs or 
make them more quickly with FT8. Using high power is one thing when conditions 
demand it, as with some 160 m DX paths, for example. It's quite another thing when 
high power is not required to make the QSO, but only to help you get through first.

"However, it has always been thus, and there's not much anyone can do about it. 
As a general rule it's often useful to move up above 2500 Hz or so, audio frequency. 
Or even to set your dial frequency 1 kHz higher than the default for a band.

"We are also thinking about suggesting a "QRP FT8 sub-band" in which power 
should be limited to 10 W (say).

"-- 73, Joe, K1JT"

Richard
W4KBX
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[Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Bob McGraw]

Hams will be hams.   "Hey, I paid a lot of money for my equipment and 
I'll use it as I please. "  I find it very unfortunate and very 
concerning the social discipline of hams today is mostly non-existent.


Legally, and it has always been this way, one should use only the 
necessary power with mode to effectively communicate.  I suppose ones 
lacking translation and understanding is "to effectively communicate".   
Hams need to understand how to operate smarter and not "with more 
power".  Any idiot can plunk down several $K and operate with more 
power.   But smarter, ...that takes knowledge and skill.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/11/2021 10:32 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:03:32 -0500
From: Richard
To: Elecraft Mailing List
Subject: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8
Message-ID:<98e4b524-a7c9-4f26-96d2-29823be69...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I had a discussion about this sort of madness with Joe Taylor, creator of FT8 
and WSJT-X. Here's what he had to say about it:

"Hi Richard,

"Yes, it's annoying when people engage in a QRO arms race to make more QSOs or 
make them more quickly with FT8. Using high power is one thing when conditions 
demand it, as with some 160 m DX paths, for example. It's quite another thing when 
high power is not required to make the QSO, but only to help you get through first.

"However, it has always been thus, and there's not much anyone can do about it. 
As a general rule it's often useful to move up above 2500 Hz or so, audio frequency. 
Or even to set your dial frequency 1 kHz higher than the default for a band.

"We are also thinking about suggesting a "QRP FT8 sub-band" in which power 
should be limited to 10 W (say).

"-- 73, Joe, K1JT"

Richard
W4KBX


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[Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Bob McGraw]

One very effective solution is to configure WSJT-X to receive when he is 
receiving and transmit when he is transmitting.  Thus you would never 
know he exists.


I agree, abuse of power is not a good thing.  It is more a case where 
hams have more money than good operating skills.


73

Bob, K4TAX



On 11/11/2021 10:32 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:16:42 -0500
From: Richard
To: Elecraft Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8
Message-ID:<3e58a528-f611-40ee-92ab-0bab194f4...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii

There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG power 
with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only signal 
on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG POWER is on 
the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care what he does 
to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is contagious.

On the other hand, I've made several 10,000 to 11,000 mile Australian contacts 
with 15 watts and a hex beam at 30 feet.

Richard


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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Gordon LaPoint]

When that happens to me, I just ensure that I TX at the same time as the 
STRONG signal, at the oppsite end of the audio passband, it usually 
works good and allows me to make contacts.

Gordon - N1MGO
On 11/11/2021 8:16 AM, Richard wrote:

There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG power 
with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only signal 
on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG POWER is on 
the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care what he does 
to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is contagious.

On the other hand, I've made several 10,000 to 11,000 mile Australian contacts 
with 15 watts and a hex beam at 30 feet.

Richard
W4KBX



On Nov 11, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Jim Brown mailto:j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>> wrote:

On 11/10/2021 10:36 PM, Rick Tavan wrote:

I must be missing something.

Hi Rick,

FT8 and similar modes are weak signal modes, and for difficult paths, it's all 
about signal to noise, not signal to QRM. For several seasons, I've been 
running legal limit to fill in DXCC to eastern EU on 160M. During the summer, 
many of us run legal limit and lots of aluminum on 6M for weak and brief 
multi-hop Es openings to fill in missing grids in search of the Fred Fish 
award. We also run power for meteor scatter, and most who do moonbounce run 
legal limit.

The fundamental GOOD reason for power is RX noise on the other end of the QSO. 
I regularly give signal reports 10-15 dB better than I receive, simply because 
most hams are bathed in electronic noise from their own homes and those of 
their neighbors. Noise levels have increased drastically over the years. When I 
first moved to W6 in 2006, I could work EU on CW. Not a lot, but at least 3-4 
QSOs per year, sometimes more. In the last six years, I've HEARD 6 CW signals 
from EU, and only two heard me. And my 160M antenna farm is better today than 
it was then.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Rick Bates, NK7I]

On phone or CW, it's a dog fight and power (and antenna gain) often 
reigns supreme.  That's the reality.  Get heard, get worked, get out.  
The JT modes bring something new to the playing field; making it more 
'level'.


For many, it's not about the distance or miles/km per watt.  That is 
determined by the magic of radio conditions.  QRP into a light bulb 
filament (not LED), may work stations during the really good cycle peaks 
while in the doldrums one must use a lot more to make the contact.


As Jim rightly says; it's ALL about noise, but keeping your local noises 
to a minimum is only half the equation.  Expanding what he says, when it 
comes to working DXpeditions (taking the latest groups in AF as an 
example), the antennas are not optimal (because they are hauled in/out, 
not on 30 meter high towers with proper grounding, not a permanent 
installation but lashed up); their local site is rarely optimally placed 
(a hotel or beach), the noise floors are frequently very high 
(thunderstorms add more exciting noise) and the power grid is also noisy 
(and intermittent) in some areas. Their output levels are variable due 
to ability or local laws, often not 'generous'.


The end result is that the calling station, generally has ZERO clue 
about conditions at the other end.  One can watch the DX to see the 
reports given and get a sense of their hearing ability (or lack) for 
known big guns being worked; but until the actual contact is made and a 
real report (life isn't always 59) given, one doesn't really KNOW that 
the power was excessive; then it's over.  What YOU hear is not what THEY 
hear; compare equally built stations but pay attention to the NOISE floors.


In some cases, one must surf the waves of QSB too; timing is critical in 
any mode.


Sadly, this is true even on permanent stations, i.e. one on Guam that 
transmits a GREAT 100 watt signal but the noise floor is so high that 
those calling MUST run much higher power to be heard.  Often, it's not 
possible.


However, JT modes also allow those with less than optimal (flea power, 
string antennas) stations to participate more often.  Perhaps not to 
work the rarest of DX, but they're 'in the game' enjoying the hobby.  
That's a HUGE benefit.


Rarely, the reverse is true.  Working the Antarctic stations with their 
noise floor at MDS, their reports are often better than most stations 
calling (I was so shocked that it worked with a meager wire antenna and 
100 watts on 60M [legal EIRP limit in the US], I tried for an 'insurance 
dupe' at half the power just to verify, got it too).  In that case, they 
had to overcome MY local noise, which is pretty good in the rural zone 
I'm in (the same worked on CW too and they weren't loud).  [K3's at both 
ends, HAD to help at least a little.  ;-) ]


Don't sweat the output power of others but pay attention to your 
station.  High output doesn't help work stations faster in JT modes 
(which can even be set to ignore loud stations in DX mode) and it 
doesn't usually cause an issue IF it's a cleanly transmitting station 
(KEY POINT), even when on the same tones as others (I've seen two 
station on exactly the same tones get decoded, one +4 and the other -18 
dB, the JT modes are magical).


My general rule is to base my output power on the signal level I 
receive, with a sense of their local conditions (based on their 
reports).  If that doesn't work, double the output power (add 3 dB) and 
try again (repeat as needed).  Generally, that works out but not always 
if the DX is in a noisy place.


In a perfect world of no noise, we could all work each other at QRPp 
levels.  Reality is much harsher.


Lower YOUR noise floor and keep YOUR station clean to cause no harm; let 
the other stations do the same.


73,
Rick NK7I




On 11/11/2021 7:17 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

Richard -

As of today, I have worked 40 stations in VK6-land ... the farthest land
mass area, for me, on Earth.

This is with 50 watts (or less) FT8, mostly on 40 meters, mostly 0800 - 1300
UTC and, basically, an oversized dipole at about 35 feet (actually a 3.5 MHz
EDZ - but that's another story).

Included in that bunch is THE station that appears to be the furthest from
me located on land (a MM in the South Indian Ocean might be farther, maybe).

I gave him a -15, and he gave me a -07.  QRZ distance, 11,026 miles.

73
Lyn, W0LEN

-Original Message-
From:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 7:17 AM
To: Elecraft Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG
power with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only
signal on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG
POWER is on the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care
what he does to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is
contagious

Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Hank Garretson]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:18 AM Richard  wrote:

> There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG
> power with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the
> only signal on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his
> BIG POWER is on the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't
> care what he does to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is
> contagious.
>

I suggest that the problem is not his power. Instead he is almost for sure
overdriving his audio input.

Since you are off on the wrong foot with him, maybe you can get some other
local to approach him in a helpful way.

Ham Exuberantly,

Hank, W6SX
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Andy Durbin]

I use whatever power is required to make the intended QSO.   It really bugs me 
when people brag about their prowess with QRP operations when they don't 
declare the antenna that was in use.  Power output means nothing unless it is 
qualified by antenna gain.

Often a good idea of the required power can be learned from a single TX and a 
review of PSKReporter.

Just worked Reunion Island from Arizona with a home brew magnetic loop on 30 m. 
 99 watts resulted in a -17 report so I could have used less power.  I'm not 
going to get too stressed about it.  Instead I'll marvel that my inexpensive 
home brew mag loop can reach half way round the world.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Lyn Norstad]

Richard -

As of today, I have worked 40 stations in VK6-land ... the farthest land
mass area, for me, on Earth.

This is with 50 watts (or less) FT8, mostly on 40 meters, mostly 0800 - 1300
UTC and, basically, an oversized dipole at about 35 feet (actually a 3.5 MHz
EDZ - but that's another story).

Included in that bunch is THE station that appears to be the furthest from
me located on land (a MM in the South Indian Ocean might be farther, maybe).

I gave him a -15, and he gave me a -07.  QRZ distance, 11,026 miles.

73
Lyn, W0LEN

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 7:17 AM
To: Elecraft Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG
power with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only
signal on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG
POWER is on the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care
what he does to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is
contagious.

On the other hand, I've made several 10,000 to 11,000 mile Australian
contacts with 15 watts and a hex beam at 30 feet.

Richard
W4KBX


> On Nov 11, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Jim Brown mailto:j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>> wrote:
> 
> On 11/10/2021 10:36 PM, Rick Tavan wrote:
>> I must be missing something.
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> FT8 and similar modes are weak signal modes, and for difficult paths, it's
all about signal to noise, not signal to QRM. For several seasons, I've been
running legal limit to fill in DXCC to eastern EU on 160M. During the
summer, many of us run legal limit and lots of aluminum on 6M for weak and
brief multi-hop Es openings to fill in missing grids in search of the Fred
Fish award. We also run power for meteor scatter, and most who do moonbounce
run legal limit.
> 
> The fundamental GOOD reason for power is RX noise on the other end of the
QSO. I regularly give signal reports 10-15 dB better than I receive, simply
because most hams are bathed in electronic noise from their own homes and
those of their neighbors. Noise levels have increased drastically over the
years. When I first moved to W6 in 2006, I could work EU on CW. Not a lot,
but at least 3-4 QSOs per year, sometimes more. In the last six years, I've
HEARD 6 CW signals from EU, and only two heard me. And my 160M antenna farm
is better today than it was then.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Richard]

There's a major jerk who lives within about 20 miles of me who runs BIG power 
with FT8. When he's on the air, he blots out my K3S so his is the only signal 
on the waterfall, the only signal the decoder sees. When his BIG POWER is on 
the air, I can't be. And he's made it clear that he doesn't care what he does 
to anyone else's enjoyment. Power for power's sake is contagious.

On the other hand, I've made several 10,000 to 11,000 mile Australian contacts 
with 15 watts and a hex beam at 30 feet.

Richard
W4KBX


> On Nov 11, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Jim Brown  > wrote:
> 
> On 11/10/2021 10:36 PM, Rick Tavan wrote:
>> I must be missing something.
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> FT8 and similar modes are weak signal modes, and for difficult paths, it's 
> all about signal to noise, not signal to QRM. For several seasons, I've been 
> running legal limit to fill in DXCC to eastern EU on 160M. During the summer, 
> many of us run legal limit and lots of aluminum on 6M for weak and brief 
> multi-hop Es openings to fill in missing grids in search of the Fred Fish 
> award. We also run power for meteor scatter, and most who do moonbounce run 
> legal limit.
> 
> The fundamental GOOD reason for power is RX noise on the other end of the 
> QSO. I regularly give signal reports 10-15 dB better than I receive, simply 
> because most hams are bathed in electronic noise from their own homes and 
> those of their neighbors. Noise levels have increased drastically over the 
> years. When I first moved to W6 in 2006, I could work EU on CW. Not a lot, 
> but at least 3-4 QSOs per year, sometimes more. In the last six years, I've 
> HEARD 6 CW signals from EU, and only two heard me. And my 160M antenna farm 
> is better today than it was then.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Ray]

ALL…….. 
All we need is More Regulations in the Amateurs’ World.
 
Ray WA6VAB K3 

From: Jim Brown
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 11:18 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

On 11/10/2021 10:36 PM, Rick Tavan wrote:
> I must be missing something.

Hi Rick,

FT8 and similar modes are weak signal modes, and for difficult paths, 
it's all about signal to noise, not signal to QRM. For several seasons, 
I've been running legal limit to fill in DXCC to eastern EU on 160M. 
During the summer, many of us run legal limit and lots of aluminum on 6M 
for weak and brief multi-hop Es openings to fill in missing grids in 
search of the Fred Fish award. We also run power for meteor scatter, and 
most who do moonbounce run legal limit.

The fundamental GOOD reason for power is RX noise on the other end of 
the QSO. I regularly give signal reports 10-15 dB better than I receive, 
simply because most hams are bathed in electronic noise from their own 
homes and those of their neighbors. Noise levels have increased 
drastically over the years. When I first moved to W6 in 2006, I could 
work EU on CW. Not a lot, but at least 3-4 QSOs per year, sometimes 
more. In the last six years, I've HEARD 6 CW signals from EU, and only 
two heard me. And my 160M antenna farm is better today than it was then.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Jim Brown]

On 11/10/2021 10:36 PM, Rick Tavan wrote:

I must be missing something.


Hi Rick,

FT8 and similar modes are weak signal modes, and for difficult paths, 
it's all about signal to noise, not signal to QRM. For several seasons, 
I've been running legal limit to fill in DXCC to eastern EU on 160M. 
During the summer, many of us run legal limit and lots of aluminum on 6M 
for weak and brief multi-hop Es openings to fill in missing grids in 
search of the Fred Fish award. We also run power for meteor scatter, and 
most who do moonbounce run legal limit.


The fundamental GOOD reason for power is RX noise on the other end of 
the QSO. I regularly give signal reports 10-15 dB better than I receive, 
simply because most hams are bathed in electronic noise from their own 
homes and those of their neighbors. Noise levels have increased 
drastically over the years. When I first moved to W6 in 2006, I could 
work EU on CW. Not a lot, but at least 3-4 QSOs per year, sometimes 
more. In the last six years, I've HEARD 6 CW signals from EU, and only 
two heard me. And my 160M antenna farm is better today than it was then.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Rick Tavan]

I must be missing something. FTn isn't like CW or SSB where the loudest
station often wins in a pileup. If you have enough FTn signal to be decoded
reliably, say -10 or better, how does more power enhance your chances of
getting through? WSJT-X chooses whom to answer based on a "first decoded"
algorithm that I don't fully understand but it doesn't seem to be based on
signal strength. I often get multiple callers and the loudest one often
isn't selected. I'm surprised Joe didn't point that out - it's his mode,
after all. But maybe there's something I don't understand.

FTn are modes in which the standard FCC guidance to use the "minimum power
required" seems to make sense. I set power based on incoming signal
strengths. With my antennas, 40W usually gets through to anyone -15 or
better, often to -20. If most signals are weaker or if a station "calls CQ
in my face," I QSY to another tone that might be clear on its end and/or go
up to 80W. I turned on the amp at 200W one time when I was decoding a new
one only sporadically and expected I would also be weak. Got it. ;-)

/Rick N6XI

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 8:04 PM Richard  wrote:

> I had a discussion about this sort of madness with Joe Taylor, creator of
> FT8 and WSJT-X. Here's what he had to say about it:
>
> "Hi Richard,
>
> "Yes, it's annoying when people engage in a QRO arms race to make more
> QSOs or make them more quickly with FT8. Using high power is one thing when
> conditions demand it, as with some 160 m DX paths, for example. It's quite
> another thing when high power is not required to make the QSO, but only to
> help you get through first.
>
> "However, it has always been thus, and there's not much anyone can do
> about it. As a general rule it's often useful to move up above 2500 Hz or
> so, audio frequency. Or even to set your dial frequency 1 kHz higher than
> the default for a band.
>
> "We are also thinking about suggesting a "QRP FT8 sub-band" in which power
> should be limited to 10 W (say).
>
> "-- 73, Joe, K1JT"
>
> Richard
> W4KBX
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-- 
--

Rick Tavan
Truckee and Saratoga, CA
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[Elecraft] Legal Limit With FT8

[Richard]

I had a discussion about this sort of madness with Joe Taylor, creator of FT8 
and WSJT-X. Here's what he had to say about it:

"Hi Richard,

"Yes, it's annoying when people engage in a QRO arms race to make more QSOs or 
make them more quickly with FT8. Using high power is one thing when conditions 
demand it, as with some 160 m DX paths, for example. It's quite another thing 
when high power is not required to make the QSO, but only to help you get 
through first.

"However, it has always been thus, and there's not much anyone can do about it. 
As a general rule it's often useful to move up above 2500 Hz or so, audio 
frequency. Or even to set your dial frequency 1 kHz higher than the default for 
a band.

"We are also thinking about suggesting a "QRP FT8 sub-band" in which power 
should be limited to 10 W (say).

"-- 73, Joe, K1JT"

Richard
W4KBX
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