Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers
Maybe I dozed off during that nearly three hour fireside chat but I came away disappointed. I wanted some meat about things like IMD, an issue Elecraft has plenty of, device selection, biasing, power control, matching and so forth. Wes N7WS On 12/14/2017 9:06 AM, Brian Heinitz wrote: With all of the anticipation about the KPA 1500, a timely and informative discussion of that product and amplifiers in general can be heard on episode 38 of the Workbench podcast at Ham Radio 360. David Shoaf KG6IRW from Elecraft is interviewed by Workbench podcast hosts (and Elecraft product owners) George KJ6VU and Jeremy KF7IJZ. This edition of the podcast does a great job of explaining the design philosophy of the KPA 1500 (and KPA 500) and discusses considerations any ham should think about when planning on adding an amplifier to their shack. If you are not familiar, the Workbench podcast is one of three podcasts produced under the Ham Radio 360 umbrella. The Workbench is specifically focused on the hands-on DIY or “maker” side of our hobby and as such offers a deeper dive into some of the more technical aspects of the hobby. The other two podcasts focus on portable or field operations (great for KX3/KX2 users) and on the hobby in general. Elecraft is a sponsor of the podcast, and I highly recommend them to you. Here’s the link to episode 38 on amplifiers with David Shoaf KG6IRW: http://hamradio360.com/index.php/2017/12/05/ham-radio-workbench-37-hf-amplifiers-with-kg6irw/ Brian Heinitz K1 / K2 and multiple mini modules KI7LKB __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Amplifiers
With all of the anticipation about the KPA 1500, a timely and informative discussion of that product and amplifiers in general can be heard on episode 38 of the Workbench podcast at Ham Radio 360. David Shoaf KG6IRW from Elecraft is interviewed by Workbench podcast hosts (and Elecraft product owners) George KJ6VU and Jeremy KF7IJZ. This edition of the podcast does a great job of explaining the design philosophy of the KPA 1500 (and KPA 500) and discusses considerations any ham should think about when planning on adding an amplifier to their shack. If you are not familiar, the Workbench podcast is one of three podcasts produced under the Ham Radio 360 umbrella. The Workbench is specifically focused on the hands-on DIY or “maker” side of our hobby and as such offers a deeper dive into some of the more technical aspects of the hobby. The other two podcasts focus on portable or field operations (great for KX3/KX2 users) and on the hobby in general. Elecraft is a sponsor of the podcast, and I highly recommend them to you. Here’s the link to episode 38 on amplifiers with David Shoaf KG6IRW: http://hamradio360.com/index.php/2017/12/05/ham-radio-workbench-37-hf-amplifiers-with-kg6irw/ Brian Heinitz K1 / K2 and multiple mini modules KI7LKB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Amplifiers
If someone were to buy my TITAN III for $2050 plus UPS shipping and insurance, I would be happy to order a KPA1500 for my Elecraft K3S/P3 station. If interested contact me only at my email: chass...@leaco.net 73, Charles Shaw - N5ULHobbs, NM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
On Sat,12/31/2016 6:29 PM, Bill Frantz wrote: We concluded that the very low harmonic and IMD distortions of the sound system made it easier to decode the (undistorted) acoustic speech. That system was highly respected by auidio pros at the time. The primary reason it was so clean was that each instrument was feeding its own vertical line array. Loudspeaker arrays like that produce a narrow beam in the vertical plane, but are wide in the horizontal plane. It's like stacking antennas. That narrow beam greatly reduces reverberation, which is what made the sound easy to understand. Another advantage of that system was that if you were reasonably close, you could localize each instrument aurally as well as visually. That also makes the sound cleaner. And yes, the distortion was probably lower, but the other two reasons I noted are probably the most important. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
Bill, I also experienced a very quality system at a friend's house ~ 1976 and it was amazing. A wall of speakers and beautiful volume, concert level and able to talk. Reminds me of my Dynaco A60 speakers and amp. This was the best audio at the time and I starved to save $'s to purchase this audio equipment, while stationed in Germany, from the PX. In the Signal Corp we were trained techs in audio for the passing of traffic to and fro from Korat AFB to Viet Nam and other linked stations. We learned a ton about audio and equalization and worked diligently to stay within parameters in our multiplexed signals with the best audio equipment for the military and probably anywhere. ( My experience is frozen in memory so I understand what you are writing about. ) A truly fantastic experience. Yes, I can still hear with damage done from shooting ranges, concussion grenades and 105 dB alarms at the site when parameters failed. Other than that, life now is good. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Frantz Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 8:30 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general A group of about 5 of my friends and I noticed this effect at a early 1970s Grateful Dead concert at the San Francisco Cow Palace. They were testing a new sound system which came to be called "The Wall of Sound". While the music was definitely loud, very loud, we could have a normal conversation with each other, something we had never been able to do at other concerts. We concluded that the very low harmonic and IMD distortions of the sound system made it easier to decode the (undistorted) acoustic speech. This experience makes me very interested in the level of audio distortion in amateur radio audio chains. The 10% quoted for HTs is much too much for optimum copy. Copy is better if the audio chains are hifi quality for distortion. 73 Bill AE6JV On 12/31/16 at 11:51 AM, caut...@montac.com (Clay Autery) wrote: >I submit that all "noise" is not equal. I'm guessing that you can hear >a radio transmission mathematically below the apparent noise level >because it is "atypical" or "organized noise" as opposed to the "noise" >in the S2 noise floor which is "disorganized". - Bill Frantz| Re: Hardware Management Modes: | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | If there's a mode, there's a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | failure mode. - Jerry Leichter | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k9...@live.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
A group of about 5 of my friends and I noticed this effect at a early 1970s Grateful Dead concert at the San Francisco Cow Palace. They were testing a new sound system which came to be called "The Wall of Sound". While the music was definitely loud, very loud, we could have a normal conversation with each other, something we had never been able to do at other concerts. We concluded that the very low harmonic and IMD distortions of the sound system made it easier to decode the (undistorted) acoustic speech. This experience makes me very interested in the level of audio distortion in amateur radio audio chains. The 10% quoted for HTs is much too much for optimum copy. Copy is better if the audio chains are hifi quality for distortion. 73 Bill AE6JV On 12/31/16 at 11:51 AM, caut...@montac.com (Clay Autery) wrote: I submit that all "noise" is not equal. I'm guessing that you can hear a radio transmission mathematically below the apparent noise level because it is "atypical" or "organized noise" as opposed to the "noise" in the S2 noise floor which is "disorganized". - Bill Frantz| Re: Hardware Management Modes: | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | If there's a mode, there's a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | failure mode. - Jerry Leichter | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
That's what I was thinking. On 12/31/2016 11:43 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote: Using your same logic, why run more than a couple watts output? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
I believe you're correct Clay. I think our ears/brain can integrate the overall signal, and the noise, if more or less random, will recede into the background. The desired CW signal will then stand out. I suspect that, were you to key noise similar to the background noise and that filled the receive BW, it would disappear for a listener as soon as it's mean amplitude fell to the background level. This may also explain why, the more you talk, the less your teenager hears. 73, Fred K6DGW - Sparks NV DM09dn - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the Cal QSO Party 7-8 Oct 2017 - www.cqp.org On 12/31/2016 11:51 AM, Clay Autery wrote: Let me posit a SWAG on why this case APPEARS to buck the math in reality I submit that all "noise" is not equal. I'm guessing that you can hear a radio transmission mathematically below the apparent noise level because it is "atypical" or "organized noise" as opposed to the "noise" in the S2 noise floor which is "disorganized". Obviously, there are much more correct and scientific ways of illustrating this, but it would be a LOT longer winded. :) 73, PS - Just my intuitive SWAG, btw. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
Fred, I agree with all you say but still when reading a signal in the noise on 160M believe me a dB can help in recognizing a call sign. I often think that operating on TB is some what like operating on VHF/UHF. It is certainly a struggle with noise. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen Sent: 31 December 2016 19:36 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general Please let me correct my typo: 100 mW is 30 dB down, not 40. Correct hand, wrong finger. 100 mW should be close to S0, 2 S-units into the noise. 73, Fred K6DGW Sparks NV USA Washoe County DM09dn On 12/31/2016 11:25 AM, Fred Jensen wrote: > One can do this with the NCDXF Beacons ... they change in four 10 dB > steps, 100 W, 10 W, 1 W, and 100 mW. No sunspots right now, but you > might be able to hear one or two of them on 14100. Most interesting > thing I notice is, while the 100 W signal may be S6 in S2 noise, I can > still hear the 100 mW signal which should be 40 dB down [~S0]. The math > is sound and exact, the reality ... not so much. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to turnb...@net1.ie __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
Let me posit a SWAG on why this case APPEARS to buck the math in reality I submit that all "noise" is not equal. I'm guessing that you can hear a radio transmission mathematically below the apparent noise level because it is "atypical" or "organized noise" as opposed to the "noise" in the S2 noise floor which is "disorganized". Obviously, there are much more correct and scientific ways of illustrating this, but it would be a LOT longer winded. :) 73, PS - Just my intuitive SWAG, btw. __ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 12/31/2016 1:36 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: > Please let me correct my typo: 100 mW is 30 dB down, not 40. Correct > hand, wrong finger. 100 mW should be close to S0, 2 S-units into the > noise. > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > Sparks NV USA > Washoe County DM09dn > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
David, Super point. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of dm...@nexicom.net Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 12:58 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general An increase in power of another station is not always well perceived but the difference is there. I've heard guys turn amps on and off and you really hear no differencethis is because your AGC is compensating.the difference may actually be big your just not hearing it. Sometime in a QSO have the other station increase or decrease the signal by 3db. it will not be that noticable. now turn off AGC and ask the other station do it again it will be much more evident. than with AGC on. With more than one signal present say in a pileup the different will be noticeable because the weaker signals will seem quiter when a strong signal comes in. its all relative. David Moes VE3SD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k9...@live.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
Please let me correct my typo: 100 mW is 30 dB down, not 40. Correct hand, wrong finger. 100 mW should be close to S0, 2 S-units into the noise. 73, Fred K6DGW Sparks NV USA Washoe County DM09dn On 12/31/2016 11:25 AM, Fred Jensen wrote: One can do this with the NCDXF Beacons ... they change in four 10 dB steps, 100 W, 10 W, 1 W, and 100 mW. No sunspots right now, but you might be able to hear one or two of them on 14100. Most interesting thing I notice is, while the 100 W signal may be S6 in S2 noise, I can still hear the 100 mW signal which should be 40 dB down [~S0]. The math is sound and exact, the reality ... not so much. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
One can do this with the NCDXF Beacons ... they change in four 10 dB steps, 100 W, 10 W, 1 W, and 100 mW. No sunspots right now, but you might be able to hear one or two of them on 14100. Most interesting thing I notice is, while the 100 W signal may be S6 in S2 noise, I can still hear the 100 mW signal which should be 40 dB down [~S0]. The math is sound and exact, the reality ... not so much. 73, Fred K6DGW - Sparks NV DM09dn - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the Cal QSO Party 7-8 Oct 2017 - www.cqp.org On 12/31/2016 10:58 AM, dm...@nexicom.net wrote: Sometime in a QSO have the other station increase or decrease the signal by 3db. it will not be that noticable. now turn off AGC and ask the other station do it again it will be much more evident. than with AGC on. With more than one signal present say in a pileup the different will be noticeable because the weaker signals will seem quiter when a strong signal comes in. its all relative. David Moes VE3SD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
An increase in power of another station is not always well perceived but the difference is there. I've heard guys turn amps on and off and you really hear no differencethis is because your AGC is compensating.the difference may actually be big your just not hearing it. Sometime in a QSO have the other station increase or decrease the signal by 3db. it will not be that noticable. now turn off AGC and ask the other station do it again it will be much more evident. than with AGC on. With more than one signal present say in a pileup the different will be noticeable because the weaker signals will seem quiter when a strong signal comes in. its all relative. David Moes VE3SD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
Dear OMs, There are times when I am sure that 1 dB would make a difference on 160M. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Charlie T, K3ICH Sent: 31 December 2016 18:44 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general Using your same logic, why run more than a couple watts output? It can easily be heard around the world if conditions are right. Anything more is a waste of power AND money. 73, Charlie k3ICH -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 10:01 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general I have always been under the impression the doubling of output power will result in a power gain of 3 db. And, that 3 db gain is the least signal increase noticeable at the receiving point. KPA500 outputs 500 Watts - 1000 Watts would give an output gain of 3 db (over the KPA500) and 1500 Watts a little over 4 db gain. That being my understanding - why would I want to spend a box full of dollars for more power than my KPA500 provides? Or, is my understanding flawed? FWIW, I have run all kinds of amps in my nearly 60 years of being the on the air and have found that Watts are Watts, regardless of how you generate them (fancy, cheap, junk, or solid gold). Everyone have a super HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Bill W2BLC K-Line (medium power HF) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to pin...@erols.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to turnb...@net1.ie __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
Using your same logic, why run more than a couple watts output? It can easily be heard around the world if conditions are right. Anything more is a waste of power AND money. 73, Charlie k3ICH -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 10:01 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general I have always been under the impression the doubling of output power will result in a power gain of 3 db. And, that 3 db gain is the least signal increase noticeable at the receiving point. KPA500 outputs 500 Watts - 1000 Watts would give an output gain of 3 db (over the KPA500) and 1500 Watts a little over 4 db gain. That being my understanding - why would I want to spend a box full of dollars for more power than my KPA500 provides? Or, is my understanding flawed? FWIW, I have run all kinds of amps in my nearly 60 years of being the on the air and have found that Watts are Watts, regardless of how you generate them (fancy, cheap, junk, or solid gold). Everyone have a super HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Bill W2BLC K-Line (medium power HF) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to pin...@erols.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
I'd just like to add that, averaged over a period of time, say a whole contest, a small difference in power can have a significant effect. While a dB or so might be very hard to detect in one QSO, over a few hundred it makes a difference. On average, you get through a bit more often, more stations come back to your CQ's, and it adds up. 73, Scott K9MA -- Scott K9MA k...@sdellington.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
On Sat,12/31/2016 7:01 AM, Bill wrote: I have always been under the impression the doubling of output power will result in a power gain of 3 db. Right. And, that 3 db gain is the least signal increase noticeable at the receiving point. Wrong. As an audio professional, I had to learn a lot about human perception of sound. Here are some things I've learned, both by studying what others have learned and by my own observations. 1) If some sound is all by itself (that's all that you here, no other sounds), 1 dB is the smallest change in level that most listeners will hear. 2) If some sound is surrounded by other sounds -- a single instrument in a band or orchestra, a signal in noise, a 1 dB change can be the difference between hearing it and not hearing it. When I mixed live sound for 20-40 piece orchestras (Tony Bennett, for example), correcting a balance problem usually involved slightly moving the fader for the instrument that was too loud or not loud enough. When adjusting voice paging levels in an office building, 2-3dB was the difference between not quite loud enough to get over the air conditioner noise and being to loud. A change in the frequency response of a dB or two can be the difference between sounding "right" or not. 3) If a sound is all by itself, it takes a change in level of 6-10 dB to be perceived as "twice" (or "half" as loud. But that doesn't apply to a transmitter, because we have a volume control on our radio. :) 4) Human voice levels vary widely as we talk. Variations of 20 dB are common. 5) Voice frequencies in the range of 500 - 3,000 Hz are most critical for speech intelligibility. In addition to running more power, we can get gain from improving our antenna system. A more efficient counterpoise/radial system for a vertical, feedline with lower loss, a more efficient antenna tuner, and the biggie, an antenna that better focuses its radiation at the elevation, and/or in the direction, that gets to the other station. We can use audio compression, and we can equalize our audio to transmit only the parts of our voice that provides the greatest speech intelligibility. Compression and EQ, if done well, can yield an effective 13 dB of gain! All of those dB add up with the power that we're running. Nearly all TV and radio broadcasting makes extensive use of dynamics processing to make their signal as loud as possible, and the most skilled use careful equalization on the microphones of talkers that matter. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Amplifiers in general
I have always been under the impression the doubling of output power will result in a power gain of 3 db. And, that 3 db gain is the least signal increase noticeable at the receiving point. KPA500 outputs 500 Watts - 1000 Watts would give an output gain of 3 db (over the KPA500) and 1500 Watts a little over 4 db gain. That being my understanding - why would I want to spend a box full of dollars for more power than my KPA500 provides? Or, is my understanding flawed? FWIW, I have run all kinds of amps in my nearly 60 years of being the on the air and have found that Watts are Watts, regardless of how you generate them (fancy, cheap, junk, or solid gold). Everyone have a super HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Bill W2BLC K-Line (medium power HF) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Elecraft Amplifiers and KPA 1500!!!!
Dear OMs and YLs, As we are allowed to run 1500W for contesting in EI, I am fortunate in old age to own an SPE Expert 2kFA, Acom 1000 and Acom 2000A. They all have advantages and drawbacks. Acom and SPE both build to a high standard and in my experience are most reliable. The Acom 1000 is perhaps the very best buy in a non-automatic self tune vacuum tube amp. The Acom 2000A is a beautiful auto-tune and runs quietly but waiting for it to warm up takes a long time! The SPE Expert 2KFA is solid state and instant on. It is a great except for two things: 1)This is a very noisy amplifier and I wonder if this is not a problem with most solid state amps. Cooling is critical to keep junction temperatures down. The noise problem remains even if running on the 600 Watt power level at the 400 Watts allowed in EI for non contest QSOs. I can not operate with the SPE unless wearing headphones preferably ones with good noise rejection. 2) If one runs the SPE 2kFA without the built in automatic ATU then even with an SWR of around 1.5/1.6 you will create terrible distortion on either SSB or CW. This distortion will quickly make you unpopular on the bands. One must be careful of this. Dropping the power level does not seem to solve this problem. Of course it has a good internal automatic tuner which works wonderfully so if you use the tuner there is no problem. A multiband antenna which did not require a tuner normally but did on one band could prove slightly problematic. You would need to change it over to another of the six antenna output connectors and use the built in auto-tuner. I must say something else in favour of the SPE it does not excessively heat the room while having the Acom 2000A in use is like having Wayne's daughter's electric heater on. The SPE is definitely more efficient when it comes to power consumption. I am an almost fanatical Elecraft user but do not own a KPA500 as I saw no point. A KPA 1500 would certainly interest me but I wonder if it would not be priced at too high a level for my pocket. Alphas do not appear to be overpriced but these days have a poor reputation in Europe. This surprises me but is the case. I have at times seriously considered Alpha and backed off because of the advice of friends whose opinion I value. Ameritron amps also get bad press but seem to do the job for relatively little money. I have a friend with an old Ameritron who is still very fond of it and would not part even though he now also owns an Acom 1010. So the lower cost alternative continues to fill a need. My friends with KPA 500 amplifiers are all fond of them and have nothing negative to say though I am told on air by some others that the KPA 500 is not so quiet. However the EI Elecraft guru EI6IZ says that the KPA 500 is quiet. Not having used one I can not say. No one seems to be selling their KPA 500. Some of us really want it to be as quiet as a library. Before you purchase an amplifier try using one of visit a ham with one. Consider noise, turn on time, distortion, reliability, band coverage, power efficiency and your pocket book. If you are an old goat like me with a fragile back think of weight as well. The KPA 1300 looks good for DXpeditions as of course does the KPA 500 which has been so popular of late. Elecraft is first class in all respects. Design, service and support are just unbeatable.We are fortunate that they exist and have brought higher standards to our hobby. I suppose a KPA 1500 would have me drooling. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of j...@kk9a.com Sent: 20 February 2016 18:02 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 It would likely cost over $10,000 like the Ohio based Dishtronix Prometheus and I do hear of many stations using them. Solid State amps typically do not handle high SWR well so if produced a KAT-1500 would be nice accessory. I am happy with my KPA-500/KAT-500 and the rest is an unlikely dream. John KK9A >From Greg n4cc at windstream.net Sat Feb 20 12:24:29 EST 2016 Previous message (by thread): [Elecraft] KPA1500 Everything you say about Elecraft is speculation, Ken. You don't know what it would cost them to produce the amp. My speculation is that they could do a better job than SPE -- if they chose to do it. How many would they sell? Who knows? The ham population is growing older fast and a lot of us old codgers can "afford" a new amp of that caliber. I have nothing against Ameritron amps...happen to own one myself...in addition to three Alphas and the KPA500 -- so no I don't "need" a KPA1500. But I would buy one just because I know the integration with the K3 and quality that would go into it would be fantastic -- not to mention that it would be from an American manufacturer with the best service in the industry. Furthermore, Elecraft is
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers
Dear OM John, My recommandation is Acom 2000A (plus Acom 2000SW and Acom 2000S). This is not cheap right now but in the long run it will be the least expensive solution because you will not want anything else for the next 10 to 20 years. I have lost money on going through the following PAs before arriving at the final solution: Yaesu FL-2700, Hammerlund (forgot the type), Drake L4B, SPE Expert 1K. Vy de 73 OZ1CCM Kel KH-Translation ApS Gyvelbakken 11 DK-4400 Kalundborg Tel.: (+45) 30 49 39 64 Fax: (+45) 45 82 96 37 e-mail: mailto:k...@kh-translation.dk k...@kh-translation.dk CVR (VAT) 29613443 Homepage: www.kh-translation.dk http://www.kh-translation.dk/ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of John Simmons Sent: 3. februar 2012 20:56 To: Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] Amplifiers I'm looking for recommendations on a full power (1.5KW output) amp (something more than a pair of 3-500s) that covers 160-10 including the WARC bands. Currently I'm running a Henry 2K-2 which works great. Alpha? What model. I'm considering something used rather than new. Please hold the opinions on 1KW vs 1.5KW. John NI0K __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Amplifiers
I'm looking for recommendations on a full power (1.5KW output) amp (something more than a pair of 3-500s) that covers 160-10 including the WARC bands. Currently I'm running a Henry 2K-2 which works great. Alpha? What model. I'm considering something used rather than new. Please hold the opinions on 1KW vs 1.5KW. John NI0K __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers
Used one: Go for a Commander HF-2500. built like a tank. No fancy stuff. 73 Arie PA3A Op 3-2-2012 20:55, John Simmons schreef: I'm looking for recommendations on a full power (1.5KW output) amp I'm considering something used rather than new. Please hold the opinions on 1KW vs 1.5KW. John NI0K __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers
On 2/3/2012 11:55 AM, John Simmons wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on a full power (1.5KW output) The Ten Tec Titan 425 (the original) works quite well with a K3 (and with every other rig I've used to drive it. I have three of them. It is possible to key the K3 directly and use the K3 Key out to drive the Titan in VOX mode on both CW, SSB, and digital modes. That's because the K3 has a built-in delay of the TX signal that is adjustable, and defaults to 8msec. It runs fine in full QSK, but I don't run it that way very often because I do a lot of contesting, and got tired of replacing the vacuum relay every couple of years. :) 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Amplifiers, Kits, etc. - 2 cents
I don't have much of an idea of what Elecraft's thinking is on high power other than the available history. From postings here it would seem there is some variance in what users might want or accept in an amplifier. It is hard for me to discern what proportion of the community those who post may represent. Nor can I guess the desires of those who choose not to post. Surely there are many who want and can afford 'it all.' And no doubt many who would be quite pleased with less. Maybe Elecraft knows its base well enough that the following need not be considered. Perhaps Elecraft could survey their customer base by emailing them with a link to a web-based check-off (secure?) form. To get my serious attention an amplifier must have... Watts Output Internal Tuner Auto-Band switching Feature... Feature... Capability... Capability... Specification... Specification... I would consider the following if offered as modular/other options... Internal Tuner Desktop External Tuner Remote Automatic Tuner Antenna Outputs Computer Interface etc... So on and so forth... ... ... The following are not important to me in an amplifier ... ... ?Pricing Information? Mid-power base model @ $ Full-power base model @ $ Everything @ $ A kit should save me $___ over an assembled unit A similar form might apply to other development projects or general planning for Elecraft. Just as well, Elecraft may know the market and their own capability. It could also be that development of an amp or amps could be at a point beyond the need for such information. Myself, I could be interested in a basic mid-power SS amp and definitely with auto-band switching (option?). Small package(s), matching enclosures(s) are appealing. Add-ons could be a consideration...W2-like option added into basic amp, added automatic tuner...for examples. 73, Dick - KA5KKT PS I hope this posting doesn't look like a mess as you receive it. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Amplifiers
I just can't get my head around Ameritron (Mighty Fine Junk) by any other name as builders of quality equipment. OTOH, I think my Al-1200 is very well built. Ameritron isn't really MFJ. A few years ago, I requested that my name be put on the KPA800 waiting list. I hope it's still there. It's gonna be a great DXpedition partner for my K3. VE7XF ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers
Ameritron is Ameritron. They were bought by MFJ of course but I am not aware of any of the amplifiers that were not designed and being built by Ameritron before of their sale to MFJ. 73, Jim KG0KP - Original Message - From: Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Amplifiers I just can't get my head around Ameritron (Mighty Fine Junk) by any other name as builders of quality equipment. OTOH, I think my Al-1200 is very well built. Ameritron isn't really MFJ. A few years ago, I requested that my name be put on the KPA800 waiting list. I hope it's still there. It's gonna be a great DXpedition partner for my K3. VE7XF ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Amplifiers
C'mon --- On Mon, 12/22/08, Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com wrote: From: Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com Subject: [Elecraft] Amplifiers To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 2:43 PM I just can't get my head around Ameritron (Mighty Fine Junk) by any other name as builders of quality equipment. OTOH, I think my Al-1200 is very well built. Ameritron isn't really MFJ. A few years ago, I requested that my name be put on the KPA800 waiting list. I hope it's still there. It's gonna be a great DXpedition partner for my K3. VE7XF ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Elecraft Amplifiers
Bill and Doug, you NEED the KPA800 then!! http://www.n6ie.com/Elecraft.html I am not sure if it covers 6m but looking at the toroids I suspect so. Not a full kit presumably because of the SMD components and the associated situation as with the K3. I don't understand the argument about Elecraft not marketing amps. The Company has the expertise and the customer base with hundreds if not thousands of 100w amps being used. These are very similar to the modules that would be in the KPA 800/1600 units. There was big interest at Dayton last year and I see these as fulfilling several growing markets sectors. Firstly the users like yourselves, secondly the guys who want a US legal limit amp and finally like myself and others who want 2 amps for an SO2R or multi-op station. Chris G3SJJ Bill W5WVO wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO I would like to see a full kit amp on the order of the Ameritron ALS-600. A nice medium power amp with full QSK and a built in power supply. I think this could have a rather large market. Agreed! About 600-750W out, built-in PS, with 6M COVERAGE (low end of band only, 50.0-50.5) at full power output to go with the K3's 6M capabilities. I think you'd have a sure-fire winner. I would buy one if I had to mortgage my mother's house. ;-) Bill / W5WVO ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Elecraft Amplifiers
No, I wasn't meaning that, Jim. I agree with your comments and I think K3 then amps is a good marketing decision.As you say K3 volume should be in excess of amps but also K3 owners will be more amenable to go for the amps than K2 owners I suspect. What I don't agree with are recent postings on the Reflector where users are saying that Elecraft shouldn't market amps because it is a QRP kit supplier. I used follow business programs in the UK where initially Sir John Harvey-Jones and then Sir Gerry Robinson went in to companies to look and advice them on how to turn the business around if they were in trouble or how to expand. I am sure both would have held Elecraft in high esteem but would have disagreed with the idea of staying a QRP kit supplier. 73 Chris G3SJJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/27/07 6:21:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't understand the argument about Elecraft not marketing amps. T It's simply a matter of available resources, IMHO. It's clear to me that Elecraft made the decision to delay the release of the amplifiers until after the release of the K3, because they don't have the resources to do both and provide adequate support for the entire Elecraft product line all at once. IOW, rather than release everything at once and reduce their standards of customer service, they put K3 ahead of KPAxxx. Since they will probably sell more K3s than KPAs, this makes perfect sense. More than one company supplying the amateur market has gone belly-up because they had great products but lacked a good marketing plan. Elecraft isn't repeating that history. Just my impression from a continent away. 73 de Jim, N2EY ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] RE: Elecraft Amplifiers
I always had mixed (mainly negative) feelings about the idea of a big Elecraft Amp. Elecraft started, and got it's loyal user base among QRPers. OK, so they have a couple 100 watt rigs now, still not as far off as a 1500 watt amp. Sorta like if Hummer came out with a Hybrid. -- --- _____ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ John L. Sielke ( W )( 2 )( A )( G )( N ) http://w2agn.net \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ http://www.blurty.com/users/w2agn check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QRPariahs/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Elecraft Amplifiers
I have a problem with the Elecraft amps, i.e. hi-power amps have become commodity items. I don't see that there can be any meaningful competition on the basis of price so you have to compete with whiz-bang features. I've seen the amps, and they certainly look nice, but I don't see many, if any, features that aren't available elsewhere. Built-in tuner, PIN diode QSK, automatic band switching etc. but nothing really whiz-bang. I just hope that Elecraft won't get themselves in trouble with a product that will soak up a lot of resources and provide little return. IMHO I would like to see a full kit amp on the order of the Ameritron ALS-600. A nice medium power amp with full QSK and a built in power supply. I think this could have a rather large market. Basically a scaled down version of the 850 Elecraft amp. Doug, W6JD K2/100 #1626 K3/100 eagerly awaited -- Original message -- From: W2AGN [EMAIL PROTECTED] I always had mixed (mainly negative) feelings about the idea of a big Elecraft Amp. Elecraft started, and got it's loyal user base among QRPers. OK, so they have a couple 100 watt rigs now, still not as far off as a 1500 watt amp. Sorta like if Hummer came out with a Hybrid. -- --- _ _ _ _ _ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ John L. Sielke ( W )( 2 )( A )( G )( N ) http://w2agn.net \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ http://www.blurty.com/users/w2agn check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QRPariahs/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Elecraft Amplifiers
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO I would like to see a full kit amp on the order of the Ameritron ALS-600. A nice medium power amp with full QSK and a built in power supply. I think this could have a rather large market. Agreed! About 600-750W out, built-in PS, with 6M COVERAGE (low end of band only, 50.0-50.5) at full power output to go with the K3's 6M capabilities. I think you'd have a sure-fire winner. I would buy one if I had to mortgage my mother's house. ;-) Bill / W5WVO ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] Elecraft Amplifiers
Is there any determination of duty cycle rating made yet for RTTY contesting use? Will the amps produce full power on RTTY without overheating? If not, how many watts output is considered appropriate for extensive run mode operation? Has amp output power been determined when operating a K2/100 at 1/3 of its maximum power to allow for extensive RTTY usage without overheating the K2/100? 73 de KB1IKD ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
