Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Edward R Cole]

I've been using JT since its advent in early 2000's (I began with 
JT44 in 2003 using my HB psk-31 computer interface).


I only had 110w on 2m using a MOT repeater PA so lucky to get 80w to 
antennas.  But I was using four 10-element yagis, which was 
considered minimum for CW eme in 1998 if using 600w.  JT modes 
allowed me to make contacts with a 10-dB weaker signal.


I was at about the bare minimum of ERP for doing eme back 
then.  About 2007 I started running 600w with an 8877 powered by HVPS 
of an old Swan HF amp that ran 2500v at 400ma.  About 2011 I upgraded 
to a 4kV 750ma PS to run 1500w, which produced a big signal using my 
array on JT65.  It took 55w drive to reach that.


Just finishing a new sspa from W6PQL that will run about 1200w that 
requires 2w drive and using a 50v PS.  I installed a 30w 10-dB 
attenuator so my 20w 2m transverter could run full power.


But the main issue is that one uses the RF power needed to make the 
contact.  I understand that FT8 is less sensitive than JT65, about 
-24 vs -28 dB.


I may try it on 6m where I have 1kW and two 7-element yagis (not 
quite yet QRV - rotator issues).


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Neil Zampella]

Carl,

you tell that to Joe Taylor, who himself has said he uses the power it 
takes to make the contact, especially on EME and Meteor Scatter. It is 
not a low power mode.  For some people using 500w from California 
results in a - 19 report from  Israel.    That is a weak signal.


You use what it takes to make the contact.

Neil, KN3ILZ

On 1/2/2019 5:56 PM, Carl J. Denbow wrote:
While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal 
mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos  
Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide 
contacts they can make with low wattage.  Many feel that 100 watts is 
QRO on these modes. Personally, I usually run about 35 watts, but I've 
had QSOs with stations in far-flung regions running power in the 
milliwatt range with a dipole up 20 feet. That's the real attraction 
of these modes to many. And, until the advent of FT8, you heard very 
few stations running more than 100 watts on these modes.  FT8 seems to 
have attracted a whole different crowd.  Some of these, I think, view 
FT8 as a "the new RTTY" and operate according to the accepted 
operating procedures of that mode.  I view this trend as very 
unfortunate.


73,

Carl

==
*Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ*
17 Coventry Lane Athens, Ohio 45701-3718
c...@n8vz.com 
www.n8vz.com 

EM89wh
IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070

PSK and JT65 Forever!
==



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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[ed]

+1

Thanks for clarifying this common myth.

Another common myth is that QRPers must use compromised antennas.  Many
times QRP and marginal antennas and marginal locations are common but its
not a requirement.  There are a number of QRP enthusiasts who use big
antenna farms.

The JT and FT modes simply allow another level of participants to operate
because decoding is reliable at many times lower signal levels than CW and
SSB.  Power is only one of many factors that contribute to signal strength.
If FT8 combined with one's QTH, antennas and path require more than QRP,
even 1500 watts, so be it.

The FCC got this right many decades ago when they set the amateur rule that
we use only as much power as necessary for reliable communication ... up to
a maximum of 1500 watts.

Ed W0YK

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Wednesday, 02 January, 2019 15:19
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

On 1/2/2019 2:56 PM, Carl J. Denbow wrote:
> While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal 
> mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos 
> Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide 
> contacts they can make with low wattage.

You are confusing "weak signal" with QRP. "Weak signal" means signals are
weak thanks to the mode of propagation and/or because it's a difficult path.
WSJT-X modes like FT8, JT65, and JT9 are designed for that sort of
communications -- long distances on 160M (4,000 miles and up); E-skip, long
distance tropo and moonbounce on 6M, and so on. These modes are also useful
if the station on the other end has a lot of receive noise, and most of us
do nowadays.

The moderate power levels you are espousing ARE appropriate on the HF bands
with decent antennas and moderate noise levels. BUT -- when I'm trying to
work 6,000+ miles on 160M, I run legal limit into very good antennas,
because that's a difficult path. AND -- even with that, I often get much
weaker signal reports than I transmit, often in the range of -20 to -24,
which means that I'm certainly not using too much power! 
Last night on 160M, I tried for most of an hour to work an SV2, who was
6,600 miles from my QTH near San Francisco. For most of that time his signal
was weaker than -20.

73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Bill Frantz]

I thought I would look through the high power QSOs in my log for 
Los Gatos, CA to find what I do, instead of what I think I do. I 
found that I use high power for:


  The Elecraft SSB net: I frequently need a relay to reach Chicago.
  DXpeditions: Minimizing the time for my QSO lets others make 
their QSOs

  Contests: Particularly when entering the contest to work DXCCs
  FT8: I have a number of Rx -24 DB contacts. My only 3W QSO 
has -17dB from @800W.


At the other end of the power spectrum, I have a QSO with a V3 
at 1.4W and 5W contacts around the world. (Many of these were 
back when there were sun spots.) All my contacts from New 
Hampshire were with 10W or less, most 5 or less. These contacts 
include a useful number of DXCCs. I do play QRP as well as QRO.


I also admit that when I got my amp, I was a kid in a candy 
store. I used it, perhaps at times when I didn't strictly need it.


It is obvious from this data that I clearly think that all's 
fair in love and DX. Also, I should take a careful look at my 
transmit antennas. I also act as if I believe that using enough 
power to make the QSO is a valid way for a ham to operate.


I will close with the thought that working EME is certainly a 
weak signal mode, and that it frequently takes a kilowatt to 
play in that league.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 1/2/19 at 2:56 PM, n...@qth.com (Carl J. Denbow) wrote:

While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak 
signal mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak 
signal mode ethos  Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride 
themselves on the worldwide contacts they can make with low 
wattage.  Many feel that 100 watts is QRO on these modes. 
Personally, I usually run about 35 watts, but I've had QSOs 
with stations in far-flung regions running power in the 
milliwatt range with a dipole up 20 feet.  That's the real 
attraction of these modes to many. And, until the advent of 
FT8, you heard very few stations running more than 100 watts on 
these modes.  FT8 seems to have attracted a whole different 
crowd.  Some of these, I think, view FT8 as a "the new RTTY" 
and operate according to the accepted operating procedures of 
that mode.  I view this trend as very unfortunate.

---
Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Jim Brown]

On 1/2/2019 2:56 PM, Carl J. Denbow wrote:
While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal 
mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos 
Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide 
contacts they can make with low wattage. 


You are confusing "weak signal" with QRP. "Weak signal" means signals 
are weak thanks to the mode of propagation and/or because it's a 
difficult path. WSJT-X modes like FT8, JT65, and JT9 are designed for 
that sort of communications -- long distances on 160M (4,000 miles and 
up); E-skip, long distance tropo and moonbounce on 6M, and so on. These 
modes are also useful if the station on the other end has a lot of 
receive noise, and most of us do nowadays.


The moderate power levels you are espousing ARE appropriate on the HF 
bands with decent antennas and moderate noise levels. BUT -- when I'm 
trying to work 6,000+ miles on 160M, I run legal limit into very good 
antennas, because that's a difficult path. AND -- even with that, I 
often get much weaker signal reports than I transmit, often in the range 
of -20 to -24, which means that I'm certainly not using too much power! 
Last night on 160M, I tried for most of an hour to work an SV2, who was 
6,600 miles from my QTH near San Francisco. For most of that time his 
signal was weaker than -20.


73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Bill Rowlett]

Dito Carl, well said. I agree 100%

Bill  KC4IM



> On Jan 2, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Carl J. Denbow  wrote:
> 
> While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal mode, 
> it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos  Most 
> weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide contacts they 
> can make with low wattage.  Many feel that 100 watts is QRO on these modes. 
> Personally, I usually run about 35 watts, but I've had QSOs with stations in 
> far-flung regions running power in the milliwatt range with a dipole up 20 
> feet.  That's the real attraction of these modes to many. And, until the 
> advent of FT8, you heard very few stations running more than 100 watts on 
> these modes.  FT8 seems to have attracted a whole different crowd.  Some of 
> these, I think, view FT8 as a "the new RTTY" and operate according to the 
> accepted operating procedures of that mode.  I view this trend as very 
> unfortunate.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Carl
> 
> ==
> *Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ*
> 17 Coventry Lane Athens, Ohio 45701-3718
> c...@n8vz.com 
> www.n8vz.com 
> 
> EM89wh
> IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070
> 
> PSK and JT65 Forever!
> ==
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Carl J. Denbow]

While it's legal to run maximum power on FT8, or any other weak signal 
mode, it's certainly not in the spirit of the weak signal mode ethos  
Most weak-signal mode enthusiasts pride themselves on the worldwide 
contacts they can make with low wattage.  Many feel that 100 watts is 
QRO on these modes. Personally, I usually run about 35 watts, but I've 
had QSOs with stations in far-flung regions running power in the 
milliwatt range with a dipole up 20 feet.  That's the real attraction of 
these modes to many. And, until the advent of FT8, you heard very few 
stations running more than 100 watts on these modes.  FT8 seems to have 
attracted a whole different crowd.  Some of these, I think, view FT8 as 
a "the new RTTY" and operate according to the accepted operating 
procedures of that mode.  I view this trend as very unfortunate.


73,

Carl

==
*Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ*
17 Coventry Lane Athens, Ohio 45701-3718
c...@n8vz.com 
www.n8vz.com 

EM89wh
IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070

PSK and JT65 Forever!
==
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Carl Yaffey]

Rick, Thanks for this. Some people seem to think FT8 is a low power mode. It’s 
a weak signal mode. 
73, K8NU


> On Jan 1, 2019, at 11:56 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC)  wrote:
> 
> You run the amount of power required to make the contact, up to the legal 
> limit.  If you wish to operate QRP, that’s your choice.
> 
> I remind you that RTTY is also digital and full legal limit is common; FT8 is 
> semi-automated RTTY with complex pattern but improved reception.  High power 
> is also common.  On some bands (160M) its nearly a requirement.
> 
> There is no difference between antenna gain, when possible or amp gain of 
> equal dB raise.  Many folks can’t use improved antennas (no space or budget), 
> so power is an answer. 
> 
> The true issue is when folks don’t run clean power.
> 
> 73,
> Rick wa6nhc
> 
> Spiel Czech happens

Carl Yaffey  K8NU
Recording studio.
cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com
Https://www.columbusfolkmusicsociety.org
http://www.timbrewolves.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.columbusshotokankarate.com









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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Wes Stewart]

You were wrong, but it's a common misconception.

Wes  N7WS

On 1/1/2019 9:42 PM, Ken wrote:
Geesh, how much power are people running?  I've always thought 50 watts was 
excessive for digital modes! 


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Bill Frantz]

The short answer for issues of obsolescence is the same for 
computers as it is for RF components: modularization. I replaced 
the synthesizers in my K3 when better ones came out. I would 
expect to do the same for the computer, whether it is integrated 
into the radio package or separate.


I think the best route towards a FT8 radio is to have a radio 
that will do FT8 and any other mode its computer can handle. 
Running a single-board Linux computer seems attractive. It seems 
like the radio will need a keyboard, display, pointing device, 
audio, and RS-232 interfaces. Raspberry PIs have USB for 
keyboard, pointing device, and RS-232; HDMI for display; and 
built-in audio.


For future flexibility, just using USB and HDMI may be 
attractive. Or just USB if there are usable USB displays. Using 
only one or two interfaces makes swapping computers simple, at 
least until the interfaces are no longer supported. USB seem to 
have a lifespan on par with radios, so obsolescence seems a low 
risk. HDMI is higher risk, as display interfaces are caught up 
in the whole Digital Rights Management arms race.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 1/1/19 at 8:42 PM, wa8...@gmail.com (Ken) wrote:

As for the concept of a dedicated FT8 radio, what's going to 
happen when FT9 becomes the latest craze?  How many people 
operate Olivia (or even JT-65) now?



Bill Frantz|"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics 
refer to
408-356-8506   | reality, they are not certain; and insofar 
they are
www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.” 
-- Einstein


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Rick Bates (WA6NHC)]

You run the amount of power required to make the contact, up to the legal 
limit.  If you wish to operate QRP, that’s your choice.

I remind you that RTTY is also digital and full legal limit is common; FT8 is 
semi-automated RTTY with complex pattern but improved reception.  High power is 
also common.  On some bands (160M) its nearly a requirement.

There is no difference between antenna gain, when possible or amp gain of equal 
dB raise.  Many folks can’t use improved antennas (no space or budget), so 
power is an answer. 

The true issue is when folks don’t run clean power.

73,
Rick wa6nhc

Spiel Czech happens

> On Jan 1, 2019, at 8:42 PM, Ken  wrote:
> 
> Geesh, how much power are people running?  I've always thought 50 watts was 
> excessive for digital modes!
> 
> As for the concept of a dedicated FT8 radio, what's going to happen when FT9 
> becomes the latest craze?  How many people operate Olivia (or even JT-65) now?
> 
> Ken WA8JXM
> 
> 
>> On 12/29/18 5:23 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:
>> 50-70 watts out is fine, that will provide adequate drive for most amps to 
>> run their full rated power out.  If you don’t want that much, turn it down.
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Ken]

Geesh, how much power are people running?  I've always thought 50 watts 
was excessive for digital modes!


As for the concept of a dedicated FT8 radio, what's going to happen when 
FT9 becomes the latest craze?  How many people operate Olivia (or even 
JT-65) now?


Ken WA8JXM


On 12/29/18 5:23 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:

50-70 watts out is fine, that will provide adequate drive for most amps to run 
their full rated power out.  If you don’t want that much, turn it down.

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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Gwen Patton]

They can put it on a separate module. There's space for at least a
Raspberry Pi Zero in there, so it could be put on a dedicated board of its
own. That way, it wouldn't be software in the main system firmware, it'd be
a separate, optional module with its own license. THAT can be GPL. You can
sell things with GPL software in them, after all. The only thing that would
violate the GPL is if they put the FT8 code in the main firmware.

Gwen, NG3P

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:20 PM Neil Zampella  wrote:

> As long as the developer is using any part of the WSJT-X code it cannot
> be added to closed source firmware.It doesn't matter that it can be
> done.
> It would be in violation of the GPL
>
> Neil, KN3ILZ
>
> On 12/30/2018 8:59 PM, John Harper wrote:
> > Here's the thread - scroll down to message #27527:
> >
> >
> https://groups.io/g/QRPLabs/topic/no_ft8_in_the_upcoming_qsx/27317246?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,27317246
> >
> > John AE5X
> > https://ae5x.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 7:56 PM Devin Butterfield <
> > devin.butterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One of the potential issues no one has mentioned is that JT and friends
> >> released the code for FT8 under the GNU GPL license. This means if you
> link
> >> this into any proprietary closed device or firmware, you would violate
> the
> >> terms of the license.
> >>
> >> You would have to either:
> >>
> >> 1. Write a cleanroom implementation from scratch of FT8, ensuring you
> >> didn’t use any GPL code and didn’t violate any copyrights
> >>
> >> or
> >>
> >> 2. Build an “open” box radio, where all software is open source and
> >> licensed under the GPL
> >>
> >> Having said that, you might want to discuss with an attorney before
> >> starting a business venture using JT’s software.
> >>
> >> I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very
> long.
> >> —
> >> Regards, Devin / K6DRS
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Dec 30, 2018, at 5:44 PM, John Harper  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The upcoming QSX kit from G0UPL may have FT8 capability. Hans announced
> >>> that it will run PSK31, WSPR and RTTY natively, ie on firmware within
> the
> >>> rig. Another ham, a Latvian I believe, asked "Why not FT8 too?"
> >>>
> >>> Hans offered him a free QSX if he could write the code for FT8
> capability
> >>> to exist within the QSX and, last I heard, he was successful.
> >>>
> >>> https://qrp-labs.com/qsx.html
> >>>
> >>> John AE5X
> >>> https://ae5x.blogspot.com
> >>> __
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> >>
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Neil Zampella]

As long as the developer is using any part of the WSJT-X code it cannot 
be added to closed source firmware.    It doesn't matter that it can be 
done.

It would be in violation of the GPL

Neil, KN3ILZ

On 12/30/2018 8:59 PM, John Harper wrote:

Here's the thread - scroll down to message #27527:

https://groups.io/g/QRPLabs/topic/no_ft8_in_the_upcoming_qsx/27317246?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,27317246

John AE5X
https://ae5x.blogspot.com



On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 7:56 PM Devin Butterfield <
devin.butterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:


One of the potential issues no one has mentioned is that JT and friends
released the code for FT8 under the GNU GPL license. This means if you link
this into any proprietary closed device or firmware, you would violate the
terms of the license.

You would have to either:

1. Write a cleanroom implementation from scratch of FT8, ensuring you
didn’t use any GPL code and didn’t violate any copyrights

or

2. Build an “open” box radio, where all software is open source and
licensed under the GPL

Having said that, you might want to discuss with an attorney before
starting a business venture using JT’s software.

I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very long.
—
Regards, Devin / K6DRS



On Dec 30, 2018, at 5:44 PM, John Harper  wrote:

The upcoming QSX kit from G0UPL may have FT8 capability. Hans announced
that it will run PSK31, WSPR and RTTY natively, ie on firmware within the
rig. Another ham, a Latvian I believe, asked "Why not FT8 too?"

Hans offered him a free QSX if he could write the code for FT8 capability
to exist within the QSX and, last I heard, he was successful.

https://qrp-labs.com/qsx.html

John AE5X
https://ae5x.blogspot.com
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Dennis Moore]

That explains the complete and utter failure of the K1 and KX1 to gain 
any popularity.


73, Dennis NJ6G
Happy New Year!


On 12/30/2018 17:56, Devin Butterfield wrote:

I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very long.
—
Regards, Devin / K6DRS

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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[W2xj]

Digests are from the early 90s. Totally unnecessary in this day and age.  

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 30, 2018, at 11:15 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/30/2018 7:36 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> For the life of me I don't know what all of the hand-wringing is about with 
>> OT posts.
> 
> I suspect that the complaints come from those who choose to read a digest, or 
> who don't use a decent email client. My delete key has always worked quite 
> well.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Jim Brown]

On 12/30/2018 7:36 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
For the life of me I don't know what all of the hand-wringing is about 
with OT posts.


I suspect that the complaints come from those who choose to read a 
digest, or who don't use a decent email client. My delete key has always 
worked quite well.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Wes Stewart]

When a post has "FT8" in the subject line, it's an automatic delete. I only 
opened this one because Bob wrote it.


BTW, I too use Thunderbird, but don't use any filters etc.  I find that I'm 
perfectly capable of deleting unwanted posts by myself.  For the life of me I 
don't know what all of the hand-wringing is about with OT posts.


Wes  N7WS

On 12/30/2018 8:19 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

My interest is already diminished to zero.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/30/2018 7:56 PM, Devin Butterfield wrote:

I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very long.


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

My interest is already diminished to zero.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 12/30/2018 7:56 PM, Devin Butterfield wrote:

I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very long.


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[John Harper]

Here's the thread - scroll down to message #27527:

https://groups.io/g/QRPLabs/topic/no_ft8_in_the_upcoming_qsx/27317246?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,27317246

John AE5X
https://ae5x.blogspot.com



On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 7:56 PM Devin Butterfield <
devin.butterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One of the potential issues no one has mentioned is that JT and friends
> released the code for FT8 under the GNU GPL license. This means if you link
> this into any proprietary closed device or firmware, you would violate the
> terms of the license.
>
> You would have to either:
>
> 1. Write a cleanroom implementation from scratch of FT8, ensuring you
> didn’t use any GPL code and didn’t violate any copyrights
>
> or
>
> 2. Build an “open” box radio, where all software is open source and
> licensed under the GPL
>
> Having said that, you might want to discuss with an attorney before
> starting a business venture using JT’s software.
>
> I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very long.
> —
> Regards, Devin / K6DRS
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 2018, at 5:44 PM, John Harper  wrote:
> >
> > The upcoming QSX kit from G0UPL may have FT8 capability. Hans announced
> > that it will run PSK31, WSPR and RTTY natively, ie on firmware within the
> > rig. Another ham, a Latvian I believe, asked "Why not FT8 too?"
> >
> > Hans offered him a free QSX if he could write the code for FT8 capability
> > to exist within the QSX and, last I heard, he was successful.
> >
> > https://qrp-labs.com/qsx.html
> >
> > John AE5X
> > https://ae5x.blogspot.com
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Devin Butterfield]

One of the potential issues no one has mentioned is that JT and friends 
released the code for FT8 under the GNU GPL license. This means if you link 
this into any proprietary closed device or firmware, you would violate the 
terms of the license. 

You would have to either:

1. Write a cleanroom implementation from scratch of FT8, ensuring you didn’t 
use any GPL code and didn’t violate any copyrights

or

2. Build an “open” box radio, where all software is open source and licensed 
under the GPL

Having said that, you might want to discuss with an attorney before starting a 
business venture using JT’s software.

I also agree that a one-mode radio wouldn’t be of interest for very long.
—
Regards, Devin / K6DRS


> On Dec 30, 2018, at 5:44 PM, John Harper  wrote:
> 
> The upcoming QSX kit from G0UPL may have FT8 capability. Hans announced
> that it will run PSK31, WSPR and RTTY natively, ie on firmware within the
> rig. Another ham, a Latvian I believe, asked "Why not FT8 too?"
> 
> Hans offered him a free QSX if he could write the code for FT8 capability
> to exist within the QSX and, last I heard, he was successful.
> 
> https://qrp-labs.com/qsx.html
> 
> John AE5X
> https://ae5x.blogspot.com
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[Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[John Harper]

The upcoming QSX kit from G0UPL may have FT8 capability. Hans announced
that it will run PSK31, WSPR and RTTY natively, ie on firmware within the
rig. Another ham, a Latvian I believe, asked "Why not FT8 too?"

Hans offered him a free QSX if he could write the code for FT8 capability
to exist within the QSX and, last I heard, he was successful.

https://qrp-labs.com/qsx.html

John AE5X
https://ae5x.blogspot.com
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[a******@sbcglobal]

That is key. In a little while FT8 will fall out of favor as amateurs move on 
to the next digital mode, a cycle that has repeated for the entire history of 
digital modes. 

An FT8 specific radio wouldn’t interest, but an “infinitely flexible” digital 
mode platform with integral computer might. 

Al  W6LX

> and modes that have yet to be invented, not just FT8.
> 
> 73 -- Lynn

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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

If the radio was basically a Pi Hat then upgrading the computer would be 
relatively easy.


 and using a standard, commonly available computer means that you 
could run useful modes, and modes that have yet to be invented, not just 
FT8.


73 -- Lynn

On 12/30/2018 1:38 PM, Todd wrote:
Have a look at some of OH8STN's you tube videos.  He's done a lot of 
portable FT8 ops and has

a lot of neat ideas...

Later,
Todd KH2TJ

Doug Millar via Elecraft wrote:
Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all 
in one radio.

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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Todd]

Have a look at some of OH8STN's you tube videos.  He's done a lot of 
portable FT8 ops and has

a lot of neat ideas...

Later,
Todd KH2TJ

Doug Millar via Elecraft wrote:

Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one 
radio.

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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Walter Underwood]

Two words, “WSJT-X 2.0”. :-)

With five year old software, you wouldn’t be running any kind of FT8.

I worked on software for test and measurement instruments at HP. Even twenty 
years ago, software was moving out of the box into general purpose computers.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Dec 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Phil Kane  wrote:
> 
> On 12/30/2018 11:20 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:
> 
>> So after five years, the radio will still be competitive, but the computer 
>> might not even run current software.
> 
> But then again, why update the software when it's doing the job that it
> was intended for.  A close friend runs his very successful business of
> manufacturing and distributing repair parts for musical instruments
> using computers running DOS applications!
> 
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
> 
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Jeff Stai]

hi Don - Indeed. I had a line in there about being mindful of bluetooth
delays but it somehow disappeared. ;) 73 jeff wk6i


On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 12:55 PM Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> Concept is good, but ignores the latency problem with Bluetooth.  I
> think that would be a "killer" for data modes like FT8 which need rather
> precise timing.
>
> To get an idea about the latency of Bluetooth, try monitoring your CW
> with a Bluetooth headset - unless you are a slow operator, the delay
> (which is caused by latency) will drive you to phone operation.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/30/2018 2:26 PM, Jeff Stai wrote:
> > Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
> > have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
> > wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
> > receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
> > however. 73 jeff wk6i
> >
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-- 
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Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 -2359 UTC!
RTTY op at W7RN
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Don Wilhelm]

Jeff,

Concept is good, but ignores the latency problem with Bluetooth.  I 
think that would be a "killer" for data modes like FT8 which need rather 
precise timing.


To get an idea about the latency of Bluetooth, try monitoring your CW 
with a Bluetooth headset - unless you are a slow operator, the delay 
(which is caused by latency) will drive you to phone operation.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/30/2018 2:26 PM, Jeff Stai wrote:

Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
however. 73 jeff wk6i


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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Phil Kane]

On 12/30/2018 11:20 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:

> So after five years, the radio will still be competitive, but the computer 
> might not even run current software.

But then again, why update the software when it's doing the job that it
was intended for.  A close friend runs his very successful business of
manufacturing and distributing repair parts for musical instruments
using computers running DOS applications!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[W2xj]

Unless there is enough demand for someone to make it happen. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 30, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Jeff Stai  wrote:
> 
> Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
> have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
> wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
> receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
> however. 73 jeff wk6i
> 
>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:16 AM Doug Millar  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Jeff, Good ideas all around. Of course i was thinking of the KX2 and a
>> tablet. I actually went portable in the with that setup. What I didn't like
>> was all the wires and the USB box. If I could get straight from the KX2 to
>> the tablet with audio and rig control that might do the trick. What do you
>> think?   Doug
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, December 30, 2018, 11:07:48 AM PST, Jeff Stai <
>> wk6i.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;)
>> An all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
>> 
>> There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
>> so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
>> complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
>> all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
>> CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...
>> 
>> There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
>> think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
>> 
>> If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option
>> for more watts sounds okay for that.
>> 
>> Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
>> happy new year - jeff wk6i
>> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Jeff Stai]

Hmmm... as long as you use a generic tablet with a KX2, you're going to
have a box and wires. You could go tablet to USB box and then maybe find
wireless solutions from there. I see there are chargeable bluetooth audio
receivers, for example. I've never seen a simple USB wireless extension,
however. 73 jeff wk6i

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:16 AM Doug Millar  wrote:

> Hi Jeff, Good ideas all around. Of course i was thinking of the KX2 and a
> tablet. I actually went portable in the with that setup. What I didn't like
> was all the wires and the USB box. If I could get straight from the KX2 to
> the tablet with audio and rig control that might do the trick. What do you
> think?   Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 30, 2018, 11:07:48 AM PST, Jeff Stai <
> wk6i.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;)
> An all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
>
> There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
> so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
> complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
> all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
> CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...
>
> There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
> think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
>
> If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option
> for more watts sounds okay for that.
>
> Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
> happy new year - jeff wk6i
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
>
> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in
> one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen
> that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an
> optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The
> computer (raspberry pi et al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output,
> 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This
> would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc,
> and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to
> expand for more fixed use.
> What do you think?
>   61, Doug K6JEY
>
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>
>
> --
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> Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 -2359 UTC!
> RTTY op at W7RN
> Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
>
>

-- 
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Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 -2359 UTC!
RTTY op at W7RN
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Walter Underwood]

One issue with an all-in-one is that computer technology improves much, much 
faster than radio technology. So after five years, the radio will still be 
competitive, but the computer might not even run current software.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Dec 30, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Jeff Stai  wrote:
> 
> Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;) An
> all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
> 
> There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
> so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
> complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
> all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
> CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...
> 
> There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
> think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
> 
> If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option for
> more watts sounds okay for that.
> 
> Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
> happy new year - jeff wk6i
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> 
>> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in
>> one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen
>> that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an
>> optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The
>> computer (raspberry pi et al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output,
>> 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This
>> would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc,
>> and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to
>> expand for more fixed use.
>>What do you think?
>>  61, Doug K6JEY
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to wk6i.j...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.j...@gmail.com
> Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 -2359 UTC!
> RTTY op at W7RN
> Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Doug Millar via Elecraft]

Hi Jeff, Good ideas all around. Of course i was thinking of the KX2 and a 
tablet. I actually went portable in the with that setup. What I didn't like was 
all the wires and the USB box. If I could get straight from the KX2 to the 
tablet with audio and rig control that might do the trick. What do you think?   
Doug



  

On Sunday, December 30, 2018, 11:07:48 AM PST, Jeff Stai 
 wrote:  
 
 Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;) An 
all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.
There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there, so 
use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the complexity 
of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said all mode but 
it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include CW if it is 
easy. It will also need a stable clock...
There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you 
think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.
If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option for 
more watts sounds okay for that.
Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and happy 
new year - jeff wk6i

On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft 
 wrote:

Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one 
radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays 
flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard 
since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et 
al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an 
external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital radio 
that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but 
also have the ability to expand for more fixed use. 
    What do you think? 
  61, Doug K6JEY
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-- 
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.jeff@gmail.comAsk me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 
2019 -2359 UTC!RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
  
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Jeff Stai]

Well, since we are dreaming about things that probably won't happen...;) An
all in one appeals because it is portable, perhaps even trail ready.

There are plenty of good mini keyboard/trackpads units already out there,
so use one of those. Since you are using an external keyboard, skip the
complexity of a swivel screen. A kickstand would be nice though. You said
all mode but it's an FT8 radio so keep it that way; you could maybe include
CW if it is easy. It will also need a stable clock...

There are more powerful options for CPU nowadays than Raspberry Pi. If you
think ahead, this unit could have enough oomph for future digi modes.

If it was a solder kit I'd probably be in for one. 5-10W with an option for
more watts sounds okay for that.

Or just port WSJT-X to a tablet computer and use it with a KX2. ;) 73 and
happy new year - jeff wk6i


On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 1:27 PM Doug Millar via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in
> one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen
> that lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an
> optional keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The
> computer (raspberry pi et al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output,
> 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This
> would make a very portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc,
> and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but also have the ability to
> expand for more fixed use.
> What do you think?
>   61, Doug K6JEY
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Message delivered to wk6i.j...@gmail.com



-- 
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Ask me about Green Keys Night - Jan 1, 2019 -2359 UTC!
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Rick Bates (WA6NHC)]

50-70 watts out is fine, that will provide adequate drive for most amps to run 
their full rated power out.  If you don’t want that much, turn it down. 

Rick WA6NHC

Smell Czech correction happen

> On Dec 29, 2018, at 1:54 PM, Bill Rowlett  wrote:
> 
> 25 watts out max.
> 
> KC4IM  Bill
> 
> 
>> On Dec 29, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Doug Millar via Elecraft 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in 
>> one radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that 
>> lays flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional 
>> keyboard since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer 
>> (raspberry pi et al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all 
>> mode. A jack for an external monitor would be good. This would make a very 
>> portable digital radio that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track 
>> pad to make it work, but also have the ability to expand for more fixed use. 
>>What do you think? 
>>  61, Doug K6JEY
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Message delivered to kc4...@hotmail.com
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Bill Rowlett]

25 watts out max.

KC4IM  Bill


> On Dec 29, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Doug Millar via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one 
> radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays 
> flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard 
> since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et 
> al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for 
> an external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital 
> radio that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it 
> work, but also have the ability to expand for more fixed use. 
> What do you think? 
>   61, Doug K6JEY
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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[Elecraft] Ideas for an FT8 Radio

[Doug Millar via Elecraft]

Ok, I am going out on a limb. I have been trying to imagine an FT8 all in one 
radio. How about this- A radio that is 6 by 10" or so with a screen that lays 
flat on top and swivels up for use. Mouse but only and an optional keyboard 
since the programs are primarily mouse driven. The computer (raspberry pi et 
al.)  inside the radio box. 50watts output, 160-6m and all mode. A jack for an 
external monitor would be good. This would make a very portable digital radio 
that only needs an antenna, dc, and a mouse or track pad to make it work, but 
also have the ability to expand for more fixed use. 
    What do you think? 
  61, Doug K6JEY
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