Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
You don't need the drawings. If someone would scan the existing case and share the scans it is simple to print. I don't know what kind of copyright and/or patent issues that creates. 73, Joe kk0sd -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Neil Zampella Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 7:45 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question You know, the point is moot. I would assume that Wayne & Eric looked at getting a replacement vendor, but then after getting bids based on the sales history of the EC2, they determined that it would not be feasible at the price point they wanted to sell them at. Now, it would be great if they could release a PDF of the engineering drawings of the EC2, so that those who wanted to create a KAT100-2 could still do that. Neil, KN3iLZ On 12/22/2018 11:42 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: > To the original point, there is no difficulty finding a different vendor, > there are no tooling costs, and producing parts in small quantity is not cost > prohibitive. > > Some people need to be right. Others want the right answer. Only the latter > is of interest. > > Enough said. > > 73, > Josh W6XU > > Sent from my mobile device > >> On Dec 22, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: >> >> Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were >> not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per >> enclosure. >> Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing >> and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over >> $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the >> EC2. >> >> It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items. >> Enough said. >> >> 73, >> Don W3FPR >> >>> On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote: >>> You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed >>> basis. That is where the auto industry is going. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: >>>> >>>> Josh, >>>> >>>> I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those >>>> costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can >>>> be prohibited. >>>> Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a >>>> full schedule already can be costly. >>>> >>>> 73, >>>> Don W3FPR >>>> >>>>> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: >>>>> Hi Don, >>>>> >>>>> Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal >>>>> fabrication. >>>>> >>>>> Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC >>>>> press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no >>>>> tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, >>>>> the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even >>>>> small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge >>>>> material like this. >>>>> >>>>> > --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to gary_mayfi...@hotmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
i tend to think you’re right. If Elecraft has determined that it isn’t economical for them to continue to produce the EC2, then perhaps we shouldn’t be giving side eye about what it costs to laser cut a piece of metal at even a mom and pot shop. Sure .. maybe that’s cheap, but there’s a good deal more that goes into producing an actual market-ready finished product. I could list quite a few additional steps besides metal cutting … but that wouldn’t prove much. Any more that arguing that laser cutting metal is cheap … unless you’d like to have raw laser cut metal as a cabinet for a radio … K3 #2091 KX3 #8342 > On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:45 PM, Neil Zampella wrote: > > You know, the point is moot. I would assume that Wayne & Eric looked at > getting a replacement vendor, but then after getting bids based on the sales > history of the EC2, they determined that it would not be feasible at the > price point they wanted to sell them at. > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
You know, the point is moot. I would assume that Wayne & Eric looked at getting a replacement vendor, but then after getting bids based on the sales history of the EC2, they determined that it would not be feasible at the price point they wanted to sell them at. Now, it would be great if they could release a PDF of the engineering drawings of the EC2, so that those who wanted to create a KAT100-2 could still do that. Neil, KN3iLZ On 12/22/2018 11:42 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: To the original point, there is no difficulty finding a different vendor, there are no tooling costs, and producing parts in small quantity is not cost prohibitive. Some people need to be right. Others want the right answer. Only the latter is of interest. Enough said. 73, Josh W6XU Sent from my mobile device On Dec 22, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per enclosure. Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the EC2. It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items. Enough said. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote: You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: Josh, I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be prohibited. Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a full schedule already can be costly. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: Hi Don, Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
My conversations with a senior manager for a company that makes components for auto manufacturers is that, while 3D printing is widely used for small runs of prototypes, traditional tooling still rules for production. In answer to Ed, KL7UW's comments about his amp, I'm quite satisfied with mine. I didn't notice any real problems with the holes in chassis. 73 Bill AE6JV On 12/22/18 at 7:38 PM, w...@w2xj.net (W2xj) wrote: You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going. On 12/23/18 at 8:00 AM, kl...@acsalaska.net (Edward R Cole) wrote: So I chose a good quality commercial chassis from Hammond and built an aluminum jig to hold it in a vise for drilling. Square holes required hand filing. Stick-on labeling. I used a pcb made by a reputable small production house (W6PQL). Those that bought the 80w 2m amp got a pretty good product but no confusion that it was hand made. Costs were hard to get competitive with commercial amp mfrs but I think the reliability might have been better. You would have to survey my customers who all read this list and most have Elecraft radios that were used with the amp (majority had the KX3-2M). --- Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | | Los Gatos, CA 95032 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
I’m actually having difficulty imagining using a 3D printer to make a good looking smooth sheet metal cabinet. Examples? Chuck KE9UW Sent from my iPhone, cjack > On Dec 22, 2018, at 10:24 PM, W2xj wrote: > > Well no. That $5k could be spread over all the metalwork and greatly reduce > inventory. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 22, 2018, at 20:11, Don Wilhelm wrote: >> >> Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were >> not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per >> enclosure. >> Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing >> and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over >> $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the >> EC2. >> >> It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items. >> Enough said. >> >> 73, >> Don W3FPR >> >>> On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote: >>> You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed >>> basis. That is where the auto industry is going. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: Josh, I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be prohibited. Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a full schedule already can be costly. 73, Don W3FPR > On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: > Hi Don, > > Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal > fabrication. > > Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC > press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no > tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, > the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even > small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge > material like this. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net >>> >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this em > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to c-haw...@illinois.edu __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
You are distorting this way out of proportion. While you may be describing the 20th century method for large scale manufacturing, it has little to do with today’s technology. To begin with, Elecraft is a small low volume operation. I doubt they go through all the processes you describe. In any event the discussion began being about a relatively small case that was low volume in the first place. They could put the existing drawings on line and let the ham community take it from there. On a vastly larger scale, the auto industry is moving towards 3D printing parts on site and cutting out all those middle men (along with import and tariff hassles). Sent from my iPad > On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > "after initial design", and "one off run" is key here. > > When you are a doing it as a hobby, you may not count the cost of that design > element. For a manufacturer, it means a lot more that getting a part > in-hand. Engineering prototypes are one thing, getting a product out for > production sales is entirely a different matter. > > If you are a manufacturer, there is a big difference. You have to count the > cost of Engineering Change Orders, vendor negotiations, re-designs to meet > the requirements of the particular vendor you are dealing with, and finally > creating a Bill of Materials and stocking and inventorying the product, and > creating sales data (even if it is a re-vamped product). > In other words, all the relevant pieces of your organization have to have the > information needed to work in lockstep with each other. > And most of that effort is in-house and takes up much of the staff resources. > > A one or 2 person shop can do it more quickly and easily, but in a > manufacturing evironment, all the "T"s must be crossed and the "i"s dotted if > you are going to succeed with a product that is only a small piece of your > product line. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/23/2018 11:19 AM, W2xj wrote: >> Times have changed. 3D printing permits one off runs with little effort >> after the initial design. >> Sent from my iPad >>> On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Edward R Cole wrote: >>> >>> Have to agree, in principle, with Don. >>> >>> Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have. >>> I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project >>> of twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs. >>> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
"after initial design", and "one off run" is key here. When you are a doing it as a hobby, you may not count the cost of that design element. For a manufacturer, it means a lot more that getting a part in-hand. Engineering prototypes are one thing, getting a product out for production sales is entirely a different matter. If you are a manufacturer, there is a big difference. You have to count the cost of Engineering Change Orders, vendor negotiations, re-designs to meet the requirements of the particular vendor you are dealing with, and finally creating a Bill of Materials and stocking and inventorying the product, and creating sales data (even if it is a re-vamped product). In other words, all the relevant pieces of your organization have to have the information needed to work in lockstep with each other. And most of that effort is in-house and takes up much of the staff resources. A one or 2 person shop can do it more quickly and easily, but in a manufacturing evironment, all the "T"s must be crossed and the "i"s dotted if you are going to succeed with a product that is only a small piece of your product line. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/23/2018 11:19 AM, W2xj wrote: Times have changed. 3D printing permits one off runs with little effort after the initial design. Sent from my iPad On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Edward R Cole wrote: Have to agree, in principle, with Don. Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have. I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project of twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Times have changed. 3D printing permits one off runs with little effort after the initial design. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 23, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Edward R Cole wrote: > > Have to agree, in principle, with Don. > > Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have. > I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project of > twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs. > > So I chose a good quality commercial chassis from Hammond and built an > aluminum jig to hold it in a vise for drilling. Square holes required hand > filing. Stick-on labeling. I used a pcb made by a reputable small > production house (W6PQL). Those that bought the 80w 2m amp got a pretty good > product but no confusion that it was hand made. Costs were hard to get > competitive with commercial amp mfrs but I think the reliability might have > been better. > > You would have to survey my customers who all read this list and most have > Elecraft radios that were used with the amp (majority had the KX3-2M). > > I had an opportunity to buy out a popular line of transverters and recently a > popular preamp maker. Cost/labor time were decisive against them (mostly at > my age). Had a hard time convincing my self that working for under $10/hour > was a good deal. Each amp took about 18 hours each and my net was under > $100. So I considered it learning experience and labor of "love". > > In manufacturing there is a concept called "economy of scale" which Wayne and > Eric are probably very conversant. > > 73, Ed - KL7UW > http://www.kl7uw.com > Dubus-NA Business mail: > dubus...@gmail.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Have to agree, in principle, with Don. Many of you may never had done a small volume production. I have. I cannot afford to purchase CNC tooling, metal brakes, etc. for a project of twelve copies. Vendors are all out of state with added shipping costs. So I chose a good quality commercial chassis from Hammond and built an aluminum jig to hold it in a vise for drilling. Square holes required hand filing. Stick-on labeling. I used a pcb made by a reputable small production house (W6PQL). Those that bought the 80w 2m amp got a pretty good product but no confusion that it was hand made. Costs were hard to get competitive with commercial amp mfrs but I think the reliability might have been better. You would have to survey my customers who all read this list and most have Elecraft radios that were used with the amp (majority had the KX3-2M). I had an opportunity to buy out a popular line of transverters and recently a popular preamp maker. Cost/labor time were decisive against them (mostly at my age). Had a hard time convincing my self that working for under $10/hour was a good deal. Each amp took about 18 hours each and my net was under $100. So I considered it learning experience and labor of "love". In manufacturing there is a concept called "economy of scale" which Wayne and Eric are probably very conversant. 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com Dubus-NA Business mail: dubus...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
To the original point, there is no difficulty finding a different vendor, there are no tooling costs, and producing parts in small quantity is not cost prohibitive. Some people need to be right. Others want the right answer. Only the latter is of interest. Enough said. 73, Josh W6XU Sent from my mobile device > On Dec 22, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were > not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per > enclosure. > Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing > and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over > $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the > EC2. > > It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items. > Enough said. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote: >> You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed >> basis. That is where the auto industry is going. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: >>> >>> Josh, >>> >>> I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those >>> costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be >>> prohibited. >>> Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a >>> full schedule already can be costly. >>> >>> 73, >>> Don W3FPR >>> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: Hi Don, Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Well no. That $5k could be spread over all the metalwork and greatly reduce inventory. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 22, 2018, at 20:11, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were > not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per > enclosure. > Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing > and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over > $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the > EC2. > > It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items. > Enough said. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote: >> You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed >> basis. That is where the auto industry is going. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: >>> >>> Josh, >>> >>> I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those >>> costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be >>> prohibited. >>> Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a >>> full schedule already can be costly. >>> >>> 73, >>> Don W3FPR >>> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: Hi Don, Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this. >>> __ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this em __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Well, if you spread $5K over a projected sales quantity of 100 (there were not of EC2 enclosures sold), then you have a tooling cost of $50 per enclosure. Add to that the cost of administrative support, creating web pages, packing and shipping labor, and you have an EC2 enclosure that has to sell for over $150 to produce any profit. About double the original customer cost of the EC2. It is different if you can project selling thousands of the items. Enough said. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 10:38 PM, W2xj wrote: You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: Josh, I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be prohibited. Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a full schedule already can be costly. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: Hi Don, Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
You can buy a 3D printer for under $5K and make metal work on an as needed basis. That is where the auto industry is going. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 22, 2018, at 19:03, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Josh, > > I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those > costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be > prohibited. > Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a > full schedule already can be costly. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: >> Hi Don, >> >> Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. >> >> Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC >> press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. >> If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the >> resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job >> shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like >> this. >> >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Oh come on. Now you're just making things up. I just had some structural brackets made. They had 18 holes, laser cut and bent from 3/8" thick 304 stainless. They were $45 ea for 13 pcs. Supplier did the CAD for me from my pencil sketch. Took him less than 10 minutes, no extra charge. A little difficult to extrapolate from that example, other than to note the very low volume, it's expensive material and slow to cut. 73 Josh W6XU Sent from my mobile device > On Dec 22, 2018, at 7:03 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Josh, > > I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those > costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be > prohibited. > Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a > full schedule already can be costly. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: >> Hi Don, >> >> Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. >> >> Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC >> press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. >> If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the >> resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job >> shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like >> this. >> >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Josh, I may not be up to speed, but there are startup costs for anything. Those costs have to be added to the product cost and for small volumes, it can be prohibited. Entering a CAD file, getting scheduling from a small shop that may have a full schedule already can be costly. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 9:16 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: Hi Don, Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Hi Don, Sounds like you're not up to speed on 21st century sheet metal fabrication. Small volume parts like this would be cut on a laser and bent with a CNC press brake. The only setup is loading the programs and there is no tooling. If someone draws the parts using a CAD program like Solid Edge, the resulting 3D models can be utilized directly by the vendor. Even small job shops have laser cutting ability, especially for small gauge material like this. Hard tooling would only be used in high volume (thousands at least) for a very cost sensitive project. I'm not familiar with methods prior to the '80s, but even back then this would be done on a turret punch press. You'd only need tools for oddball shapes the vendor didn't have, and those are fairly inexpensive. For small runs you'd have the setup time of loading tools into the turret, but as noted, that no longer exists. 73, Josh W6XU Sent from my mobile device > On Dec 22, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Josh, > > The stuff needed to punch the panels out of a piece of aluminum and put the > holes in the right place. The tools needed to bend the panels at the right > places. That stuff can cost thousands of dollars. > It is not the same as making a one-off copy using hand marked pieces. > > If you have ever studied what it takes to make production quantities of a > device, then you would understand that it takes specialized tools that can be > quite costly. > > In my small custom woodworking shop we usually went the inexpensive way by > making jigs and other pattern tools, but doing even that costs money. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 7:35 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: >> What tooling? >> 73 >> Josh W6XU >> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Or if someone would publish the files required for 3D printing... Then the builder can opt print his own or not. The costs are shifted to a spread out model. Finding someone to print something for a reasonable fee is becoming relatively easy. Just Thinking Out Loud, 73, Joe kk0sd -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of W2xj Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:51 PM To: donw...@embarqmail.com Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question I wonder if 3D printing would be cost effective. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 22, 2018, at 17:15, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Josh, > > The stuff needed to punch the panels out of a piece of aluminum and put the > holes in the right place. The tools needed to bend the panels at the right > places. That stuff can cost thousands of dollars. > It is not the same as making a one-off copy using hand marked pieces. > > If you have ever studied what it takes to make production quantities of a > device, then you would understand that it takes specialized tools that can be > quite costly. > > In my small custom woodworking shop we usually went the inexpensive way by > making jigs and other pattern tools, but doing even that costs money. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 7:35 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: >> What tooling? >> 73 >> Josh W6XU >> Sent from my mobile device >>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> >>> Once again, the EC2 was discontinued because the metal supplier is no >>> longer in business. >>> To find another vendor is out of the question. The startup and tooling >>> costs would be excessively high for the projected quantities involved. >>> How many EC2 enclosure could Elecraft sell at a price point of $250 or more >>> per unit (my guess, not anything official from Elecraft)? >>> It was not a high sales volume unit where such startup and tooling costs >>> could be swamped out by the sales volumes. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to > w...@w2xj.net > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to gary_mayfi...@hotmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
I wonder if 3D printing would be cost effective. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 22, 2018, at 17:15, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > Josh, > > The stuff needed to punch the panels out of a piece of aluminum and put the > holes in the right place. The tools needed to bend the panels at the right > places. That stuff can cost thousands of dollars. > It is not the same as making a one-off copy using hand marked pieces. > > If you have ever studied what it takes to make production quantities of a > device, then you would understand that it takes specialized tools that can be > quite costly. > > In my small custom woodworking shop we usually went the inexpensive way by > making jigs and other pattern tools, but doing even that costs money. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 7:35 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: >> What tooling? >> 73 >> Josh W6XU >> Sent from my mobile device >>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> >>> Once again, the EC2 was discontinued because the metal supplier is no >>> longer in business. >>> To find another vendor is out of the question. The startup and tooling >>> costs would be excessively high for the projected quantities involved. >>> How many EC2 enclosure could Elecraft sell at a price point of $250 or more >>> per unit (my guess, not anything official from Elecraft)? >>> It was not a high sales volume unit where such startup and tooling costs >>> could be swamped out by the sales volumes. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Josh, The stuff needed to punch the panels out of a piece of aluminum and put the holes in the right place. The tools needed to bend the panels at the right places. That stuff can cost thousands of dollars. It is not the same as making a one-off copy using hand marked pieces. If you have ever studied what it takes to make production quantities of a device, then you would understand that it takes specialized tools that can be quite costly. In my small custom woodworking shop we usually went the inexpensive way by making jigs and other pattern tools, but doing even that costs money. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 7:35 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: What tooling? 73 Josh W6XU Sent from my mobile device On Dec 22, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: All, Once again, the EC2 was discontinued because the metal supplier is no longer in business. To find another vendor is out of the question. The startup and tooling costs would be excessively high for the projected quantities involved. How many EC2 enclosure could Elecraft sell at a price point of $250 or more per unit (my guess, not anything official from Elecraft)? It was not a high sales volume unit where such startup and tooling costs could be swamped out by the sales volumes. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
What tooling? 73 Josh W6XU Sent from my mobile device > On Dec 22, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > > All, > > Once again, the EC2 was discontinued because the metal supplier is no longer > in business. > To find another vendor is out of the question. The startup and tooling costs > would be excessively high for the projected quantities involved. > How many EC2 enclosure could Elecraft sell at a price point of $250 or more > per unit (my guess, not anything official from Elecraft)? > It was not a high sales volume unit where such startup and tooling costs > could be swamped out by the sales volumes. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > >> On 12/22/2018 4:44 PM, Doug Person wrote: >>> On 12/22/2018 2:30 PM, Rick Wheeler wrote: >>> I always wondered why Elecraft discontinued the EC2 enclosure. Even the mod >>> to use the EC2 enclosure with the 100 watt amp and tuner was unofficial as >>> I understood. I built the 100 amp and tuner in the EC2 as per the >>> instructions to mate with the K2. Maybe the demand was not there but neat >>> setup and works great! > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to j...@voodoolab.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
All, Once again, the EC2 was discontinued because the metal supplier is no longer in business. To find another vendor is out of the question. The startup and tooling costs would be excessively high for the projected quantities involved. How many EC2 enclosure could Elecraft sell at a price point of $250 or more per unit (my guess, not anything official from Elecraft)? It was not a high sales volume unit where such startup and tooling costs could be swamped out by the sales volumes. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 4:44 PM, Doug Person wrote: On 12/22/2018 2:30 PM, Rick Wheeler wrote: I always wondered why Elecraft discontinued the EC2 enclosure. Even the mod to use the EC2 enclosure with the 100 watt amp and tuner was unofficial as I understood. I built the 100 amp and tuner in the EC2 as per the instructions to mate with the K2. Maybe the demand was not there but neat setup and works great! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
As I dug around in my store room to recover the KTA100-2, which sold quickly, I also found, still in the brown paper, an original K2 QRP top cover. I believe this was left over from K2 build that went directly to the 100 watt amp option. Sop if anyone needs a new top cover, contact me off list. 73, Doug --KJ0F On 12/22/2018 2:30 PM, Rick Wheeler wrote: I always wondered why Elecraft discontinued the EC2 enclosure. Even the mod to use the EC2 enclosure with the 100 watt amp and tuner was unofficial as I understood. I built the 100 amp and tuner in the EC2 as per the instructions to mate with the K2. Maybe the demand was not there but neat setup and works great! Rick K4LX K2 No. 2005 From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on behalf of Don Wilhelm Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 3:03:18 PM To: Johnny Matlock; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question Johnny, NO! First of all, the KPA100 occupies the entire top area of the K2 (there is no room in the K2 for both) and secondly, the KAT2 is only rated for 20 watts, and thirdly, the ATU must be between the amplifier and the antenna - a tuner at the input of an amplifier will do nothing useful. Use the KAT100-1 - it is about half the height of the K2 enclosure. Contrary to some comments I have seen and heard, the KAT100-1 is available and will be for some time in the future. It is the EC2 enclosure that is no longer available, and the KAT100-2 depended on the EC2 for the enclosure, so the KAT100-2 had to be discontinued at the same time as the EC2 was discontinued. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 2:49 PM, Johnny Matlock wrote: I am looking at a K2-100 that is has the amp mounted in the top cover. Is it possible to have the 20 watt internal tuner in this enclosure With the amp? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rickwhee...@outlook.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to d...@kj0f.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
I always wondered why Elecraft discontinued the EC2 enclosure. Even the mod to use the EC2 enclosure with the 100 watt amp and tuner was unofficial as I understood. I built the 100 amp and tuner in the EC2 as per the instructions to mate with the K2. Maybe the demand was not there but neat setup and works great! Rick K4LX K2 No. 2005 From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on behalf of Don Wilhelm Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 3:03:18 PM To: Johnny Matlock; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question Johnny, NO! First of all, the KPA100 occupies the entire top area of the K2 (there is no room in the K2 for both) and secondly, the KAT2 is only rated for 20 watts, and thirdly, the ATU must be between the amplifier and the antenna - a tuner at the input of an amplifier will do nothing useful. Use the KAT100-1 - it is about half the height of the K2 enclosure. Contrary to some comments I have seen and heard, the KAT100-1 is available and will be for some time in the future. It is the EC2 enclosure that is no longer available, and the KAT100-2 depended on the EC2 for the enclosure, so the KAT100-2 had to be discontinued at the same time as the EC2 was discontinued. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 2:49 PM, Johnny Matlock wrote: > I am looking at a K2-100 that is has the amp mounted in the top cover. > > Is it possible to have the 20 watt internal tuner in this enclosure > With the amp? > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rickwhee...@outlook.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K2 100 Tuner question
Johnny, NO! First of all, the KPA100 occupies the entire top area of the K2 (there is no room in the K2 for both) and secondly, the KAT2 is only rated for 20 watts, and thirdly, the ATU must be between the amplifier and the antenna - a tuner at the input of an amplifier will do nothing useful. Use the KAT100-1 - it is about half the height of the K2 enclosure. Contrary to some comments I have seen and heard, the KAT100-1 is available and will be for some time in the future. It is the EC2 enclosure that is no longer available, and the KAT100-2 depended on the EC2 for the enclosure, so the KAT100-2 had to be discontinued at the same time as the EC2 was discontinued. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2018 2:49 PM, Johnny Matlock wrote: I am looking at a K2-100 that is has the amp mounted in the top cover. Is it possible to have the 20 watt internal tuner in this enclosure With the amp? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
