Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[David Ferrington, M0XDF]

My God - if we had a lake, it would be ~ 1/8 acre per property, if you were 
lucky - 3-5 people per property.

I live in a medium sized town 30 miles from the centre of London, population ~ 
250,000 in < 70 sq-mi :-(

73 de David, M0XDF (K3 #174, P3 #108)
-- 
I really hate this damn machine, I wish that they would sell it.
It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it!

> On 3 Dec 2017, at 06:53, Edward R Cole  wrote:
> 
> Doug,
> 
> I checked 20m about 5pm and noted S3 noise but also that I had the PRE turned 
> on.  With preamp off 20m noise is running S2.  But both 40m and 80m see S6 
> noise on my inverted-V hung on the tower under the triband yagi.  This high 
> for usual on these bands for here (yes, PRE is off).
> 
> I looked up your location which is in the mountains near Steamboat in 
> northern CO.  2000 pop/480 sq miles = 4 people per sq-mi which is way less 
> density from where I live.  4,200 in a 16x 10 mile strip along the western 
> shore of the Kenai Peninsula.  Density = 4200/160 = 26 people per sq-mi.  But 
> that is not accurate for my nearby density around a lake with average 
> property size of 2-3 acres and 2.5 persons per property.  Probably 200-300 
> within a mile.  All have wireless devices and consumer electronics galore.  
> Many are line of sight across the lake.  I do have buired utilities in the 
> near 1/4 mile but overhead wired beyond that.  Internet is phone line DSL and 
> TV by satellite.
> 
> Also we have a refinery, LNG plant, and local gas-trubine generation station 
> 2-miles to the west.  12 miles south is a city with 7500 people in typical 
> city density and many stores and businesses (lots of digital cash registers). 
>  Another city of 7500 lies another 11 miles south to the first so in 30-mile 
> radius we have a pop of about 30,000.
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Edward R Cole]

Doug,

I checked 20m about 5pm and noted S3 noise but also that I had the 
PRE turned on.  With preamp off 20m noise is running S2.  But both 
40m and 80m see S6 noise on my inverted-V hung on the tower under the 
triband yagi.  This high for usual on these bands for here (yes, PRE is off).


I looked up your location which is in the mountains near Steamboat in 
northern CO.  2000 pop/480 sq miles = 4 people per sq-mi which is way 
less density from where I live.  4,200 in a 16x 10 mile strip along 
the western shore of the Kenai Peninsula.  Density = 4200/160 = 26 
people per sq-mi.  But that is not accurate for my nearby density 
around a lake with average property size of 2-3 acres and 2.5 persons 
per property.  Probably 200-300 within a mile.  All have wireless 
devices and consumer electronics galore.  Many are line of sight 
across the lake.  I do have buired utilities in the near 1/4 mile but 
overhead wired beyond that.  Internet is phone line DSL and TV by satellite.


Also we have a refinery, LNG plant, and local gas-trubine generation 
station 2-miles to the west.  12 miles south is a city with 7500 
people in typical city density and many stores and businesses (lots 
of digital cash registers).  Another city of 7500 lies another 11 
miles south to the first so in 30-mile radius we have a pop of about 30,000.


I would guess that is not at all comparable to where you live.

Alaska has ground conductivity problems with frozen soil which really 
affects electrical noise.  But if you get out in roadless bush its as 
quiet at you make your home electronics (and generator).


73, Ed - KL7UW



Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 08:05:16 -0700
From: Doug Person <d...@k0dxv.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question
Message-ID: <27b87eb6-4c04-a59b-b3d7-03cb15f67...@k0dxv.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

That seems odd. I live in a community of about 2000 spread over an area
of 450 square miles. There is power and phone service to every house.
Internet is either satellite or over the cellular network. My noise
level on 20 meters is less than S1 and usually doesn't even move the
meter. 80 and 40 are typical of atmospheric conditions. Even on my
full-size 40 meter vertical the noise level is typically S1 to S2.

You must just have some really bad luck. I think I live in a typical
rural community where the only real noise generator is a cranky electric
fence.

Doug -- K0DXV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Got one of those "cranky electric fence" across the highway.  The Noise 
Blanker does a wonderful job of making it go away and not punch holes in 
the signal at the same time.   Thanks Elecraft!


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 12/2/2017 9:05 AM, Doug Person wrote:
That seems odd. I live in a community of about 2000 spread over an 
area of 450 square miles. There is power and phone service to every 
house. Internet is either satellite or over the cellular network. My 
noise level on 20 meters is less than S1 and usually doesn't even move 
the meter. 80 and 40 are typical of atmospheric conditions. Even on my 
full-size 40 meter vertical the noise level is typically S1 to S2.


You must just have some really bad luck. I think I live in a typical 
rural community where the only real noise generator is a cranky 
electric fence.


Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/1/17 6:49 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

Wayne and all:

A graphic example is my experience when I first arrived in Alaska to 
live in a small town of 75 people at end of 16-mile dead-end gravel 
road surrounded by the Chugach NF.  I rented a one-room cabin 14x16 
foot with a wood stove- that's all.  No electricity, no telephone, no 
running water, no toilet - just an outhouse. Nearest electric power 
was 3-miles away.  Hooking up my battery operted TS-180S to a 80m 
dipole the s-meter did not budge off zero.  I could hear out to 
800-1000 mile everynight on 80m.  All HF bands were quiet.


Ten years later the electric utility extended lines to my property 
and I had both power and phone service.  Noise went up to S3. 
Population of the town grew to 150 and the main road was paved.


Now I live about 100 miles west of there in a community of 4,000+ 12 
miles from a small city of 7,500.  80m runs S5 on a quiet day; 6m is 
also S5 noise floor.


So good luck finding that quiet place (beyond civilization)!  I live 
on the Kenai Peninsula of Alaska with area about the same as Ireland 
and pop of 55,000.  Everyone has wireless junk so "there goes the 
neighborhood".


I still can hear the occasional ATV, dirt bike or  snowmachine pass 
by the house.


Next move is the backside of the Moon!  LOL
73, Ed - KL7UW

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:51:41 -0800
From: Wayne Burdick <n...@elecraft.com>
To: Randy Farmer <w...@tx.rr.com>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question
Message-ID: <1a077cc6-4253-40a4-86bc-cd8ad1fb7...@elecraft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

This is why about half of our product line is intended for use 
outdoors, hopefully far from most noise sources. I?m always amazed to 
see noise drop from S6 to S0 on 20 meters, for example, when I hike 
up the hill at a park that?s a quarter mile from civilization.


If you do it often enough, you can cancel your gym membership :)

Wayne
N6KR


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Doug Person]

That seems odd. I live in a community of about 2000 spread over an area 
of 450 square miles. There is power and phone service to every house. 
Internet is either satellite or over the cellular network. My noise 
level on 20 meters is less than S1 and usually doesn't even move the 
meter. 80 and 40 are typical of atmospheric conditions. Even on my 
full-size 40 meter vertical the noise level is typically S1 to S2.


You must just have some really bad luck. I think I live in a typical 
rural community where the only real noise generator is a cranky electric 
fence.


Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/1/17 6:49 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

Wayne and all:

A graphic example is my experience when I first arrived in Alaska to 
live in a small town of 75 people at end of 16-mile dead-end gravel 
road surrounded by the Chugach NF.  I rented a one-room cabin 14x16 
foot with a wood stove- that's all.  No electricity, no telephone, no 
running water, no toilet - just an outhouse. Nearest electric power 
was 3-miles away.  Hooking up my battery operted TS-180S to a 80m 
dipole the s-meter did not budge off zero.  I could hear out to 
800-1000 mile everynight on 80m.  All HF bands were quiet.


Ten years later the electric utility extended lines to my property and 
I had both power and phone service.  Noise went up to S3. Population 
of the town grew to 150 and the main road was paved.


Now I live about 100 miles west of there in a community of 4,000+ 12 
miles from a small city of 7,500.  80m runs S5 on a quiet day; 6m is 
also S5 noise floor.


So good luck finding that quiet place (beyond civilization)!  I live 
on the Kenai Peninsula of Alaska with area about the same as Ireland 
and pop of 55,000.  Everyone has wireless junk so "there goes the 
neighborhood".


I still can hear the occasional ATV, dirt bike or  snowmachine pass by 
the house.


Next move is the backside of the Moon!  LOL
73, Ed - KL7UW

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:51:41 -0800
From: Wayne Burdick <n...@elecraft.com>
To: Randy Farmer <w...@tx.rr.com>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question
Message-ID: <1a077cc6-4253-40a4-86bc-cd8ad1fb7...@elecraft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

This is why about half of our product line is intended for use 
outdoors, hopefully far from most noise sources. I?m always amazed to 
see noise drop from S6 to S0 on 20 meters, for example, when I hike up 
the hill at a park that?s a quarter mile from civilization.


If you do it often enough, you can cancel your gym membership :)

Wayne
N6KR


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Bill Frantz]

I live on a long, thin lot is suburbia. My house, and my 
neighbor's houses are at the street end of our lots leaving lots 
of area behind. I have found that the RF noise in the back part 
of our lot is much lower than in the front part. That's where I 
try to put my antennas.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 12/1/17 at 10:51 AM, n...@elecraft.com (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

This is why about half of our product line is intended for use 
outdoors, hopefully far from most noise sources. I’m always 
amazed to see noise drop from S6 to S0 on 20 meters, for 
example, when I hike up the hill at a park that’s a quarter 
mile from civilization.


-
Bill Frantz| When it comes to the world | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | around us, is there any choice | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | but to explore? - Lisa Randall | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Edward R Cole]

Wayne and all:

A graphic example is my experience when I first arrived in Alaska to 
live in a small town of 75 people at end of 16-mile dead-end gravel 
road surrounded by the Chugach NF.  I rented a one-room cabin 14x16 
foot with a wood stove- that's all.  No electricity, no telephone, no 
running water, no toilet - just an outhouse.  Nearest electric power 
was 3-miles away.  Hooking up my battery operted TS-180S to a 80m 
dipole the s-meter did not budge off zero.  I could hear out to 
800-1000 mile everynight on 80m.  All HF bands were quiet.


Ten years later the electric utility extended lines to my property 
and I had both power and phone service.  Noise went up to 
S3.  Population of the town grew to 150 and the main road was paved.


Now I live about 100 miles west of there in a community of 4,000+ 12 
miles from a small city of 7,500.  80m runs S5 on a quiet day; 6m is 
also S5 noise floor.


So good luck finding that quiet place (beyond civilization)!  I live 
on the Kenai Peninsula of Alaska with area about the same as Ireland 
and pop of 55,000.  Everyone has wireless junk so "there goes the 
neighborhood".


I still can hear the occasional ATV, dirt bike or  snowmachine pass 
by the house.


Next move is the backside of the Moon!  LOL
73, Ed - KL7UW

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:51:41 -0800
From: Wayne Burdick <n...@elecraft.com>
To: Randy Farmer <w...@tx.rr.com>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question
Message-ID: <1a077cc6-4253-40a4-86bc-cd8ad1fb7...@elecraft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

This is why about half of our product line is intended for use 
outdoors, hopefully far from most noise sources. I?m always amazed to 
see noise drop from S6 to S0 on 20 meters, for example, when I hike 
up the hill at a park that?s a quarter mile from civilization.


If you do it often enough, you can cancel your gym membership :)

Wayne
N6KR


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Wayne Burdick]

This is why about half of our product line is intended for use outdoors, 
hopefully far from most noise sources. I’m always amazed to see noise drop from 
S6 to S0 on 20 meters, for example, when I hike up the hill at a park that’s a 
quarter mile from civilization.

If you do it often enough, you can cancel your gym membership :)

Wayne
N6KR


> On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:25 AM, Randy Farmer  wrote:
> 
> I sure envy those of you who live in a quiet enough environment to take 
> advantage of that much gain. 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Randy Farmer]

I sure envy those of you who live in a quiet enough environment to take 
advantage of that much gain. Here in the city the noise level is so high 
even on 6 meters that even the additional gain provided by the built-in 
preamp on the KXV3B module usually only brings the noise level up; weak 
signals are still buried in all the ambient crap. I previously used a 
PR6 on my K3 and don't really see much difference between it and the 
preamp in the Transverter module. I'm looking forward more and more to 
retirement and a move out of the city.


73...
Randy, W8FN

On 12/1/2017 9:53 AM, Edward R Cole wrote:
Just my observations on 6m with only the internal PRE on my K3 
(purchased circa 2010):


I noticed a lack of sensitivity on 6m.  I had a ARR P50VDG preamp with 
22-25 dB of gain which worked better than the internal PRE. That gave 
me about 12 dB more gain compared with running the PRE. Also lower NF 
(typ. 0.5 dB).


I then purchased a PR6-10 and that helps considerably over using the 
PRE.  I have used my K3+PR6-10 for copying 6m-eme signals with a 
single yagi (6-element) so that speaks well of the PR6-10.  I use the 
ARR preamp mounted at tower top for eme and it is a little bit better 
(has more gain) on very weak eme signals using JT65.  I use DIGOUT-1 
to control my PR6-10 and use the pass-thru connections for the ARR.  
That adds nice convenience for using the two preamps.


I have a second smaller 6m yagi which I use the PR6-10, only.  BTW 
this is equal to my KX3 with preamp ON (which says a lot for the KX3).


My opinion is the PR6-10 makes the K3 better on higher bands than the 
internal PRE (which I leave off).  If you are considering getting one 
its a good (if not essential) upgrade for the original K3 on 6m and 
10m.  Yes, you will see a small rise in the noise reading on the 
s-meter (due to more gain), but sensitivity is improved more than that 
(due to lower NF).  I see about S3-4 noise floor on 6m with the PR6-10 
and S5 with the ARR.  PRE runs maybe S1 (a guess as I haven't used it 
for some time).


73, Ed - KL7UW


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

Do you have the KXV3B with the new/improved preamp installed?  I not, you 
should consider it.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342


> On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Edward R Cole  wrote:
> 
> Just my observations on 6m with only the internal PRE on my K3 (purchased 
> circa 2010):
> 
> I noticed a lack of sensitivity on 6m.  I had a ARR P50VDG preamp with 22-25 
> dB of gain which worked better than the internal PRE.  That gave me about 12 
> dB more gain compared with running the PRE.  Also lower NF (typ. 0.5 dB).
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Edward R Cole]

Just my observations on 6m with only the internal PRE on my K3 
(purchased circa 2010):


I noticed a lack of sensitivity on 6m.  I had a ARR P50VDG preamp 
with 22-25 dB of gain which worked better than the internal 
PRE.  That gave me about 12 dB more gain compared with running the 
PRE.  Also lower NF (typ. 0.5 dB).


I then purchased a PR6-10 and that helps considerably over using the 
PRE.  I have used my K3+PR6-10 for copying 6m-eme signals with a 
single yagi (6-element) so that speaks well of the PR6-10.  I use the 
ARR preamp mounted at tower top for eme and it is a little bit better 
(has more gain) on very weak eme signals using JT65.  I use DIGOUT-1 
to control my PR6-10 and use the pass-thru connections for the 
ARR.  That adds nice convenience for using the two preamps.


I have a second smaller 6m yagi which I use the PR6-10, only.  BTW 
this is equal to my KX3 with preamp ON (which says a lot for the KX3).


My opinion is the PR6-10 makes the K3 better on higher bands than the 
internal PRE (which I leave off).  If you are considering getting one 
its a good (if not essential) upgrade for the original K3 on 6m and 
10m.  Yes, you will see a small rise in the noise reading on the 
s-meter (due to more gain), but sensitivity is improved more than 
that (due to lower NF).  I see about S3-4 noise floor on 6m with the 
PR6-10 and S5 with the ARR.  PRE runs maybe S1 (a guess as I haven't 
used it for some time).


73, Ed - KL7UW


Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 07:25:09 -0500
From: Randy Lake <randyn1...@gmail.com>
To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 PRE function question
Message-ID:

[Elecraft] K3 PRE function question

[Randy Lake]

This is a pretty simple question regarding the K3 PREamp (not PR6). If I do
not have the PR6 does the PRE on the front panel help with RX on 6m/2m (int
module) or does it merely increase noise?
Thanks

-- 
Randy Lake N1KWF
73 Gunn Rd.
Keene,NH
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