Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale [Thread closed]
Folks, This thread was closed this morning to limit list noise level. 73, Eric List Moderator elecraft.com _..._ On Apr 24, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Ron D'Eau Claire" wrote: > Keep in mind that the requirement is not onerous. A typical "hi-fi" speaker > is NOT needed since the KX3, like all communications receivers, is severely > restricts both the high and low frequency audio response. > > The speaker only needs to reproduce the range from about 300 to 2800 Hz > without distortion and with a smooth frequency response. > > By comparison, a minimal "hi-fi" speaker would be expected to deliver a > smooth response from 50 Hz or less to over 15,000 Hz. > > It's not just communications receivers that have limited fidelity too. Many > A.M. radio stations limit their audio response to between 100 Hz and 5,000 > Hz. Some less. But without distortion and a well-controlled response, their > audio can be very clean and pleasant sounding. > > Long ago when I worked on broadcast gear (1950's ;-), A.M. stations pushed > their upper audio response much higher. But, when FM became popular in car > radios, many customers complained that they were "noisy" with lots of hiss. > Of course that's because A.M. radios detect background static while F.M. > radios suppress such noise. A.M. car radio manufacturers discovered that > customer complaints were greatly reduced by limiting the upper frequency > response on A.M. to 5,000 Hz or less. > > I've seen similar observations by many on the reflector here who discovered > that their rig sounded much "quieter" when the equalizer was set to suppress > the upper frequency range. > > 73 Ron AC7AC > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Keep in mind that the requirement is not onerous. A typical "hi-fi" speaker is NOT needed since the KX3, like all communications receivers, is severely restricts both the high and low frequency audio response. The speaker only needs to reproduce the range from about 300 to 2800 Hz without distortion and with a smooth frequency response. By comparison, a minimal "hi-fi" speaker would be expected to deliver a smooth response from 50 Hz or less to over 15,000 Hz. It's not just communications receivers that have limited fidelity too. Many A.M. radio stations limit their audio response to between 100 Hz and 5,000 Hz. Some less. But without distortion and a well-controlled response, their audio can be very clean and pleasant sounding. Long ago when I worked on broadcast gear (1950's ;-), A.M. stations pushed their upper audio response much higher. But, when FM became popular in car radios, many customers complained that they were "noisy" with lots of hiss. Of course that's because A.M. radios detect background static while F.M. radios suppress such noise. A.M. car radio manufacturers discovered that customer complaints were greatly reduced by limiting the upper frequency response on A.M. to 5,000 Hz or less. I've seen similar observations by many on the reflector here who discovered that their rig sounded much "quieter" when the equalizer was set to suppress the upper frequency range. 73 Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
http://www.adorama.com/RCFMR55W.html
The specifications are great and unlike most consumer grade products are
actually published :) $212 each speaker is a bit rich however. Rolex vs Seiko?
On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 4/23/2013 8:44 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
>> And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver with
>> so many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out of the
>> speaker, is mediocre at best?
>
> As a retired audio professional (Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society),
> ham for 55 years, and contester since 1957, I have several thoughts on this
> question.
>
> 1) The science of loudspeaker design, while well understood, is so far
> removed from the science of building high quality radio transceivers that it
> makes no sense for a small company like Elecraft to devote their limited
> engineering resources to designing and building one.
>
> 2) For any serious operating, I've always used headphones. I use a
> loudspeaker only for casual operation, and for monitoring while I'm in the
> shack doing somethings else.
>
> 3) The "ideal" loudspeaker for ham radio is nothing more or less than one
> that has very smooth, uniform ("flat) frequency response in the range of 200
> - 4,000 Hz, maintains that uniformity over a wide range of angles where the
> listener is likely to have his/her ears. It should either be sufficiently
> efficient that it can be made loud enough by the relatively small speaker
> amplifiers in the K3, or it should have its own internal power amplifier.
>
> The problem with loudspeakers having internal power amplifiers is that nearly
> all I have seen, including some rather expensive pro models, have serious RFI
> problems.
>
> Loudspeakers that are relatively small tend to have smooth response over
> wider angles, but they also tend to be less efficient (that is, they take a
> bit more power to drive).
>
> Bottom line -- Elecraft made exactly the right decision to stay out of the
> loudspeaker business. If you want an outboard loudspeaker for ANY ham rig,
> simply look in the pro audio world for one that has flat response,
> sensitivity of at least 80 dBSPL for 1 watt at 1 meter, and fits on your
> operating desk. Look for audio products, not radio products. The best I know
> of is the RCF MR55, which is made in Italy and distributed worldwide. I've
> used them in some very high quality professional installations.
>
> http://www.rcf.it/products/installed-sound-systems/monitor-series/mr-55
>
> Exception -- for many years, Motorola has marketed some small loudspeakers
> designed for use with their commercial VHF/UHF transceivers that works well
> for ham radio.
>
> 73, Jim k9YC
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
I was fortunate to find a used pair of Sounds Sweet speakers for an excellent
price at a recent fleamarket.
I have to say they are well worth the trouble and expense if you can find them.
They are not amplified so there is no interference, and they sound
marvelously clear and rich.
-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:46 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
On 4/23/2013 8:44 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
> And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver with
> so many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out of the
> speaker, is mediocre at best?
As a retired audio professional (Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society), ham
for 55 years, and contester since 1957, I have several thoughts on this
question.
1) The science of loudspeaker design, while well understood, is so far removed
from the science of building high quality radio transceivers that it makes no
sense for a small company like Elecraft to devote their limited engineering
resources to designing and building one.
2) For any serious operating, I've always used headphones. I use a loudspeaker
only for casual operation, and for monitoring while I'm in the shack doing
somethings else.
3) The "ideal" loudspeaker for ham radio is nothing more or less than one that
has very smooth, uniform ("flat) frequency response in the range of 200 - 4,000
Hz, maintains that uniformity over a wide range of angles where the listener is
likely to have his/her ears. It should either be sufficiently efficient that it
can be made loud enough by the relatively small speaker amplifiers in the K3,
or it should have its own internal power amplifier.
The problem with loudspeakers having internal power amplifiers is that nearly
all I have seen, including some rather expensive pro models, have serious RFI
problems.
Loudspeakers that are relatively small tend to have smooth response over wider
angles, but they also tend to be less efficient (that is, they take a bit more
power to drive).
Bottom line -- Elecraft made exactly the right decision to stay out of the
loudspeaker business. If you want an outboard loudspeaker for ANY ham rig,
simply look in the pro audio world for one that has flat response, sensitivity
of at least 80 dBSPL for 1 watt at 1 meter, and fits on your operating desk.
Look for audio products, not radio products. The best I know of is the RCF
MR55, which is made in Italy and distributed worldwide. I've used them in some
very high quality professional installations.
http://www.rcf.it/products/installed-sound-systems/monitor-series/mr-55
Exception -- for many years, Motorola has marketed some small loudspeakers
designed for use with their commercial VHF/UHF transceivers that works well for
ham radio.
73, Jim k9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Folks - We're drifting far afield. Let's end this thread at this time in the interest of maintaining list signal to noise ratio. 73, Eric elecraft.com On 4/23/2013 9:47 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > I would disagree on the size. I have a book Weyrhauser put out in > the early 1950s for people to choose plans from to build a house. > The sizes ranged from 600 to 1100 square feet. I know for a fact that average homes of the late 40's through early 60's were considerably smaller than common today - __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
When away from home, I use an elbow 90 degrees plastic pipe fitting over the speaker opening. It provides very good sound. 73 Reinaldo, YV5AM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
> I would disagree on the size. I have a book Weyrhauser put out in > the early 1950s for people to choose plans from to build a house. > The sizes ranged from 600 to 1100 square feet. I know for a fact that average homes of the late 40's through early 60's were considerably smaller than common today - typically 1500 square feet was considered large. My father was a draftsman on the design team for one of the largest "kit built" home manufacturers in the mid-west right after WWII when they were cranking those homes out by the hundreds of thousands to supply the needs of all the returning GIs who were setting up households. Not only were room sizes typically smaller than those today - the average house of the 50's and 60's lacked a formal dinning room or separate family room. The two additional rooms plus a second full bath in homes of the 80's and later represented a significant increase in the average home size - even before considering the larger room sizes and additional storage space in "modern" homes. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/23/2013 11:24 PM, David Christ wrote: I would disagree on the size. I have a book Weyrhauser put out in the early 1950s for people to choose plans from to build a house. The sizes ranged from 600 to 1100 square feet. Try to find houses that small being built today. Two to three thousand are common and four to five are not unusual. I will admit that houses built in the 1900 to 1920 era may have been larger. But they were built for large families and quite likely a hired girl. In 1934 Sears offered material bundles for homes. I just saw an advertisement for two. Three bedrooms - 960 and 1050 square feet. David K0LUM On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:53 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: As home sizes have diminished steadily over the decades, and the size of the equipment has diminished, having a rig that was acceptable in the living room has become how many Hams have stayed on the air. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
I would disagree on the size. I have a book Weyrhauser put out in the early 1950s for people to choose plans from to build a house. The sizes ranged from 600 to 1100 square feet. Try to find houses that small being built today. Two to three thousand are common and four to five are not unusual. I will admit that houses built in the 1900 to 1920 era may have been larger. But they were built for large families and quite likely a hired girl. In 1934 Sears offered material bundles for homes. I just saw an advertisement for two. Three bedrooms - 960 and 1050 square feet. David K0LUM On Apr 23, 2013, at 9:53 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > As home sizes have diminished steadily over the decades, and the size of the > equipment has diminished, having a rig that was acceptable in the living > room has become how many Hams have stayed on the air. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Us OTs who occasionally peruse the old QSTs know that in the 1960's Collins was really trying to produce equipment that the XYL would not object to having on a desktop in the living room. "Hamshacks" were moving from the basement, garage or outdoor shed into the living room. As home sizes have diminished steadily over the decades, and the size of the equipment has diminished, having a rig that was acceptable in the living room has become how many Hams have stayed on the air. Personally, my rigs are almost never fully assembled. When I'm on the air, it's usually with something that looks like someone exploded a dozen pieces of equipment on the bench top. Fortunately my XYL does not mind and now that solid state is common, I'm no longer reaching through a maze of wires containing hundreds or thousands of volts to throw a switch. (Yes, I was raised with the story of how Ross Hull was electrocuted in 1938, exactly 7 months and 12 days after I was born probably instilling a level of care that has probably been responsible for me surviving, although I have been knocked on my...er...'backside'... a number of times in years long past.) I can fully understand the desire of some Hams to have a complete, integrated station that looks clean, neat and which works perfectly. Not all Hams are madcap tinkerers and home brewers, Hi! 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 7:22 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale On 4/23/2013 11:48 AM, Edward R Cole wrote: > Ramon makes a point, of course, but not all of us strive for "shack > beautiful" appearance. That would be me Ed. My station is never "not in a state of flux." Just sorting out the cables behind it gives new meaning to the term "wireless." With an SX-28 I inherited from a local ham's estate came the bass reflex speaker cabinet with the "h" in the center. It sounded wonderful on the SX-28. None of my more modern radios would drive it to more than a whisper. I've currently got an MFJ amplified 2"x2" speaker on my K3 facing me, it works better than than the internal speaker which is semi-blocked by the shelf above it, but really ... not a lot better. Given enough market desire [don't know how to assess that], offering a KPA500 form factor and blac box for a VERY elliptical speaker might be profitable, not sure how it would sound but car radios in the 60's had them and they weren't bad ... for the time. I doubt a speaker small enough for a P3 form factor would be any better than any other that size. Bose does some amazing things in small spaces ... partnership? :-)) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
On 4/23/2013 11:48 AM, Edward R Cole wrote: Ramon makes a point, of course, but not all of us strive for "shack beautiful" appearance. That would be me Ed. My station is never "not in a state of flux." Just sorting out the cables behind it gives new meaning to the term "wireless." With an SX-28 I inherited from a local ham's estate came the bass reflex speaker cabinet with the "h" in the center. It sounded wonderful on the SX-28. None of my more modern radios would drive it to more than a whisper. I've currently got an MFJ amplified 2"x2" speaker on my K3 facing me, it works better than than the internal speaker which is semi-blocked by the shelf above it, but really ... not a lot better. Given enough market desire [don't know how to assess that], offering a KPA500 form factor and blac box for a VERY elliptical speaker might be profitable, not sure how it would sound but car radios in the 60's had them and they weren't bad ... for the time. I doubt a speaker small enough for a P3 form factor would be any better than any other that size. Bose does some amazing things in small spaces ... partnership? :-)) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Hi Gary,
It all depends on what one is willing to pay for, and how well it fits
the application versus other solutions.
You will get no argument from me on speakers versus xcvr performance,
but there is room for a lot of opinions in this world. :)
Wayne also made a statement ("weighed in") in which he indicated a
custom speaker set fo the K3 could be in the cards. I think it would
depend on the pricing the group could tolerate, as well as the sales
volume. Fortunately, I've already found my ideal solution, so can
focus on RX/TX performance and put even more hours on my KX3 as well.
To each his own!
73,
matt W6NIA
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:47:56 +1000, you wrote:
>Matt,
>
>The matching speaker for the Yaesu FTdx9000 (we all now how much they cost)
>is expensive. Is it better than the two internal speakers in the
>transceiver?...not really was my opinion. Even the FTdx900 with two
>internal speakers was not great.
>
>We all have different audio opinions and to make the 'perfect' speaker for
>all would be a case of a 'bridge too far' I reckon.
>
>I for one would rather spend my money on receiver performance over ANY
>other add on or toy or appearance grabbing device
>
>73.
>
>
>
>On 24 April 2013 02:06, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>
>> Does this mean you'd be willing to pay the R&D costs, or just the list
>> price for Qty 2, Elecraft-developed K3 speakers?
>>
>> In my experience with Elecraft, the principals decide what a product
>> line includes. I doubt that style-matched speakers is on their list
>> of 'must do' items, but I don't speak for them and don't have the
>> inside dope.
>>
>> It's "up to Elecraft" to do business however they see fit. That is a
>> fact.
>>
>> One thing I can say with certainty is that there are plenty of high
>> quality speaker sets available at retail. The Bose Companion 2
>> multimedia speakers are particularly effective, and at $99 SRP it's
>> going to be difficult for Elecraft to compete (tooling costs, unit
>> price, or reproduction quality). I'm pretty sure Elecraft folks have
>> thought of this angle as well. They run a tight ship and don't miss
>> much.
>>
>> 73,
>> matt W6NIA
>>
>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:44:04 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >It is not easy for me to understand the rationale of many of the hams
>> that recommend buying an old, battered CB speaker at a flea market to shine
>> beside their K3/P3/KPA500 line up. It is like spending on an Armani suit
>> and wearing it with a pair of old dirty sneakers bought second-hand at a
>> yard sale. No kidding, I have seen that too!
>> >
>> >And all this for the sake of Elecraft, to save the company from the
>> "shame" of having to use their talent to build a matching speaker
>> enclosure? Somebody should have told Arthur Collins, but it is too late for
>> that, I guess. Can you imagine somebody buying a Rolls Royce without tires
>> only because Rolls Royce doesn't make tires?
>> >
>> >And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver
>> with so many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out
>> of the speaker, is mediocre at best? Why should a company hang the
>> reputation of its product on some other manufacturer of cheap computer
>> speakers that will not care for the excellence and expertise invested in
>> Elecraft's flagship system?
>> >
>> >The sound coming out of the K3 is mediocre at best. It is up to Elecraft
>> to provide a solution. If need be, I am willing to pay for it.
>> >
>> >Ramón Tristani
>> >r.trist...@gmail.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >__
>> >Elecraft mailing list
>> >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> >Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> >
>> >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Matt, The matching speaker for the Yaesu FTdx9000 (we all now how much they cost) is expensive. Is it better than the two internal speakers in the transceiver?...not really was my opinion. Even the FTdx900 with two internal speakers was not great. We all have different audio opinions and to make the 'perfect' speaker for all would be a case of a 'bridge too far' I reckon. I for one would rather spend my money on receiver performance over ANY other add on or toy or appearance grabbing device 73. On 24 April 2013 02:06, Matt Zilmer wrote: > Does this mean you'd be willing to pay the R&D costs, or just the list > price for Qty 2, Elecraft-developed K3 speakers? > > In my experience with Elecraft, the principals decide what a product > line includes. I doubt that style-matched speakers is on their list > of 'must do' items, but I don't speak for them and don't have the > inside dope. > > It's "up to Elecraft" to do business however they see fit. That is a > fact. > > One thing I can say with certainty is that there are plenty of high > quality speaker sets available at retail. The Bose Companion 2 > multimedia speakers are particularly effective, and at $99 SRP it's > going to be difficult for Elecraft to compete (tooling costs, unit > price, or reproduction quality). I'm pretty sure Elecraft folks have > thought of this angle as well. They run a tight ship and don't miss > much. > > 73, > matt W6NIA > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:44:04 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > >It is not easy for me to understand the rationale of many of the hams > that recommend buying an old, battered CB speaker at a flea market to shine > beside their K3/P3/KPA500 line up. It is like spending on an Armani suit > and wearing it with a pair of old dirty sneakers bought second-hand at a > yard sale. No kidding, I have seen that too! > > > >And all this for the sake of Elecraft, to save the company from the > "shame" of having to use their talent to build a matching speaker > enclosure? Somebody should have told Arthur Collins, but it is too late for > that, I guess. Can you imagine somebody buying a Rolls Royce without tires > only because Rolls Royce doesn't make tires? > > > >And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver > with so many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out > of the speaker, is mediocre at best? Why should a company hang the > reputation of its product on some other manufacturer of cheap computer > speakers that will not care for the excellence and expertise invested in > Elecraft's flagship system? > > > >The sound coming out of the K3 is mediocre at best. It is up to Elecraft > to provide a solution. If need be, I am willing to pay for it. > > > >Ramón Tristani > >r.trist...@gmail.com > > > > > > > >__ > >Elecraft mailing list > >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- *Gary - VK1ZZ Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ Motorhome Portable The Shack* *Elecraft K3 P3 Panadapter KPA500FT KAT500FT** KX3-K * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
That speaker is probably a licensed copy of the Moto speaker used on Syntors, Micors, Mitreks, etc. Matt Zilmer, W6NIA Semper Gumby -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim McDonald Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 12:14 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale This one there sure looks like my Motorola speakers: http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Midland-21-406-Mobile-Speaker/3697658/p roduct.html Though cheaper at http://www.amazon.com/Midland-21-406-Amateur-Extension-Speaker/dp/B000246VPM 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- On 4/23/2013 2:15 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > If you want more audio power and wider response range, you can use two > passive (or powered) external speakers. The K3 was designed to drive > two passive (non-powered) external 4 to 8-ohm speakers such as the > KLH970 to quite high volume levels. These speakers are about 8x4x4" > (HWD), so they are indeed taller than the K3, but they're black and > nicely styled and look very nice on either side of the radio. I put > mine on a shelf above it. The KLH970 are a fairly decent value ... Overstock.com is showing the KLH970 at $30/pair (factory refurbished). I've used a similar pair of Sony B1000 bookshelf speakers (about $50 for the pair at the time) without any complaints. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Yes, an excellent choice, especially for CW sidetone freq. of 700Hz which is my favorite. I get a noticeable boost in sidetone level by using a 60 degree deflector over the top internal speaker made from 3 inch black ABS tubing. Have yet to find a more sensitive speaker for CW sidetone ranges. 73, Mike AC5p From: Jim Brown To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tue, April 23, 2013 1:25:28 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale On 4/23/2013 11:15 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > The speaker selected has extremely high sensitivity (95 dB SPL) and excellent >audio response, thanks in part to its large (and shielded) magnet. It met our >fidelity and drive-level goals for an internal speaker. I think it was an excellent choice. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
This one there sure looks like my Motorola speakers: http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Midland-21-406-Mobile-Speaker/3697658/p roduct.html Though cheaper at http://www.amazon.com/Midland-21-406-Amateur-Extension-Speaker/dp/B000246VPM 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- On 4/23/2013 2:15 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > If you want more audio power and wider response range, you can use two > passive (or powered) external speakers. The K3 was designed to drive > two passive (non-powered) external 4 to 8-ohm speakers such as the > KLH970 to quite high volume levels. These speakers are about 8x4x4" > (HWD), so they are indeed taller than the K3, but they're black and > nicely styled and look very nice on either side of the radio. I put > mine on a shelf above it. The KLH970 are a fairly decent value ... Overstock.com is showing the KLH970 at $30/pair (factory refurbished). I've used a similar pair of Sony B1000 bookshelf speakers (about $50 for the pair at the time) without any complaints. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Friends, A good point regarding these speakers is that Radio Shack sells similar speakers sometimes labeled KLH and more recently labeled Auvio for about $40. You would hardly expect Elecraft to be able to distribute as good a speaker pair for such a price. Similarly power supplies are readily available from OEM sources and available for much less that ham radio manufacturers are able to retail them at. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV Sent: 23 April 2013 19:50 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale On 4/23/2013 2:15 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > If you want more audio power and wider response range, you can use > two passive (or powered) external speakers. The K3 was designed to > drive two passive (non-powered) external 4 to 8-ohm speakers such as > the KLH970 to quite high volume levels. These speakers are about > 8x4x4" (HWD), so they are indeed taller than the K3, but they're > black and nicely styled and look very nice on either side of the > radio. I put mine on a shelf above it. The KLH970 are a fairly decent value ... Overstock.com is showing the KLH970 at $30/pair (factory refurbished). I've used a similar pair of Sony B1000 bookshelf speakers (about $50 for the pair at the time) without any complaints. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
On 4/23/2013 2:15 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: If you want more audio power and wider response range, you can use two passive (or powered) external speakers. The K3 was designed to drive two passive (non-powered) external 4 to 8-ohm speakers such as the KLH970 to quite high volume levels. These speakers are about 8x4x4" (HWD), so they are indeed taller than the K3, but they're black and nicely styled and look very nice on either side of the radio. I put mine on a shelf above it. The KLH970 are a fairly decent value ... Overstock.com is showing the KLH970 at $30/pair (factory refurbished). I've used a similar pair of Sony B1000 bookshelf speakers (about $50 for the pair at the time) without any complaints. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Ramon makes a point, of course, but not all of us strive for "shack beautiful" appearance. I see many gorgeous "shacks" and they probably are a joy to operate. I suspect many with such stations take pains to make it so and then do not make any changes for months or years. Then there is the other end of the spectrum (you know who you are). I figure I am somewhere in the middle with a messy station that gets a periodic clean-up for visitors. But my station is never static in configuration; I am always building something and making changes. This never lends itself to "station beauty"...unless that is your sense of what is beautiful. I have added a couple photo links (1st is from 2011 with FT-847 and FT-817 still in evidence; note the venerable National Radio speaker on the far left): http://www.kl7uw.com/Shack2011_1.jpg The next photo is last July showing all the new VHF gear and the new KX3 in place of the Yaesu radios: http://www.kl7uw.com/Shack2012.jpg You may find interesting the evolution of the station shown here": http://www.kl7uw.com/station%20layout.htm 73, Ed - KL7UW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
On 4/23/2013 11:15 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: The speaker selected has extremely high sensitivity (95 dB SPL) and excellent audio response, thanks in part to its large (and shielded) magnet. It met our fidelity and drive-level goals for an internal speaker. I think it was an excellent choice. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
As the party responsible for the K3's speaker selection and orientation, I thought I'd weigh in here. The speaker selected has extremely high sensitivity (95 dB SPL) and excellent audio response, thanks in part to its large (and shielded) magnet. It met our fidelity and drive-level goals for an internal speaker. The speaker is mounted on the top cover rather than facing forward based on our experiments with the K3 and earlier radios. We tried mounting the same speaker (and others) in an enclosure the same height as the K3, on the front panel. While mid and high-range audio was a little louder in this orientation, bass was significantly weaker. It turns out that response is accentuated by mounting the speaker on the top cover due to enclosure geometry (larger surface area). In most home installations the speaker audio is also reflected off the wall or equipment directly behind the radio. This, too, favors a top-mounted speaker. If you want more audio power and wider response range, you can use two passive (or powered) external speakers. The K3 was designed to drive two passive (non-powered) external 4 to 8-ohm speakers such as the KLH970 to quite high volume levels. These speakers are about 8x4x4" (HWD), so they are indeed taller than the K3, but they're black and nicely styled and look very nice on either side of the radio. I put mine on a shelf above it. The K3 was designed from the ground up to be full stereo, so I do recommend using two speakers rather than one. This gives you audio effects such as simulated stereo, as well as main/left and sub/right when using the sub receiver. We may offer our own matching speakers someday, though we have no such project in the works since (in our opinion) the K3's internal speaker does an excellent job. You can also achieve excellent results with two external unpowered speakers that may set you back $20. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
On 4/23/2013 8:44 AM, Ramon Tristani wrote:
And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver with so
many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out of the
speaker, is mediocre at best?
As a retired audio professional (Fellow of the Audio Engineering
Society), ham for 55 years, and contester since 1957, I have several
thoughts on this question.
1) The science of loudspeaker design, while well understood, is so far
removed from the science of building high quality radio transceivers
that it makes no sense for a small company like Elecraft to devote their
limited engineering resources to designing and building one.
2) For any serious operating, I've always used headphones. I use a
loudspeaker only for casual operation, and for monitoring while I'm in
the shack doing somethings else.
3) The "ideal" loudspeaker for ham radio is nothing more or less than
one that has very smooth, uniform ("flat) frequency response in the
range of 200 - 4,000 Hz, maintains that uniformity over a wide range of
angles where the listener is likely to have his/her ears. It should
either be sufficiently efficient that it can be made loud enough by the
relatively small speaker amplifiers in the K3, or it should have its own
internal power amplifier.
The problem with loudspeakers having internal power amplifiers is that
nearly all I have seen, including some rather expensive pro models, have
serious RFI problems.
Loudspeakers that are relatively small tend to have smooth response over
wider angles, but they also tend to be less efficient (that is, they
take a bit more power to drive).
Bottom line -- Elecraft made exactly the right decision to stay out of
the loudspeaker business. If you want an outboard loudspeaker for ANY
ham rig, simply look in the pro audio world for one that has flat
response, sensitivity of at least 80 dBSPL for 1 watt at 1 meter, and
fits on your operating desk. Look for audio products, not radio
products. The best I know of is the RCF MR55, which is made in Italy and
distributed worldwide. I've used them in some very high quality
professional installations.
http://www.rcf.it/products/installed-sound-systems/monitor-series/mr-55
Exception -- for many years, Motorola has marketed some small
loudspeakers designed for use with their commercial VHF/UHF transceivers
that works well for ham radio.
73, Jim k9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
I will make a short answer for me anyway, if I didn't like Elecraft's business model and where they put their priorities I would not be an owner. Much less sold many thousands of dollars of other brands of radio's/Amps/etc. to switch to all Elecraft gear for the most part. I see speakers from other manufactures who have SDR's but never seem to do updates to them or if so 1 or 2 every 2 yrs or so if the customers are lucky. 73, Fred/N0AZZ K3 Ser #'s 6730/5299--KX3 # 2573--K2/100--KAT100 P3/SVGA--KPA500--KAT500--W2 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Matt Zilmer Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:07 AM To: Ramon Tristani Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale Does this mean you'd be willing to pay the R&D costs, or just the list price for Qty 2, Elecraft-developed K3 speakers? In my experience with Elecraft, the principals decide what a product line includes. I doubt that style-matched speakers is on their list of 'must do' items, but I don't speak for them and don't have the inside dope. It's "up to Elecraft" to do business however they see fit. That is a fact. One thing I can say with certainty is that there are plenty of high quality speaker sets available at retail. The Bose Companion 2 multimedia speakers are particularly effective, and at $99 SRP it's going to be difficult for Elecraft to compete (tooling costs, unit price, or reproduction quality). I'm pretty sure Elecraft folks have thought of this angle as well. They run a tight ship and don't miss much. 73, matt W6NIA On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:44:04 -0400, you wrote: > > >It is not easy for me to understand the rationale of many of the hams that recommend buying an old, battered CB speaker at a flea market to shine beside their K3/P3/KPA500 line up. It is like spending on an Armani suit and wearing it with a pair of old dirty sneakers bought second-hand at a yard sale. No kidding, I have seen that too! > >And all this for the sake of Elecraft, to save the company from the "shame" of having to use their talent to build a matching speaker enclosure? Somebody should have told Arthur Collins, but it is too late for that, I guess. Can you imagine somebody buying a Rolls Royce without tires only because Rolls Royce doesn't make tires? > >And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver with so many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out of the speaker, is mediocre at best? Why should a company hang the reputation of its product on some other manufacturer of cheap computer speakers that will not care for the excellence and expertise invested in Elecraft's flagship system? > >The sound coming out of the K3 is mediocre at best. It is up to Elecraft to provide a solution. If need be, I am willing to pay for it. > >Ramón Tristani >r.trist...@gmail.com > > > >__ >Elecraft mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email >list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6266 - Release Date: 04/22/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
Does this mean you'd be willing to pay the R&D costs, or just the list price for Qty 2, Elecraft-developed K3 speakers? In my experience with Elecraft, the principals decide what a product line includes. I doubt that style-matched speakers is on their list of 'must do' items, but I don't speak for them and don't have the inside dope. It's "up to Elecraft" to do business however they see fit. That is a fact. One thing I can say with certainty is that there are plenty of high quality speaker sets available at retail. The Bose Companion 2 multimedia speakers are particularly effective, and at $99 SRP it's going to be difficult for Elecraft to compete (tooling costs, unit price, or reproduction quality). I'm pretty sure Elecraft folks have thought of this angle as well. They run a tight ship and don't miss much. 73, matt W6NIA On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:44:04 -0400, you wrote: > > >It is not easy for me to understand the rationale of many of the hams that >recommend buying an old, battered CB speaker at a flea market to shine beside >their K3/P3/KPA500 line up. It is like spending on an Armani suit and wearing >it with a pair of old dirty sneakers bought second-hand at a yard sale. No >kidding, I have seen that too! > >And all this for the sake of Elecraft, to save the company from the "shame" of >having to use their talent to build a matching speaker enclosure? Somebody >should have told Arthur Collins, but it is too late for that, I guess. Can you >imagine somebody buying a Rolls Royce without tires only because Rolls Royce >doesn't make tires? > >And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver with so >many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out of the >speaker, is mediocre at best? Why should a company hang the reputation of its >product on some other manufacturer of cheap computer speakers that will not >care for the excellence and expertise invested in Elecraft's flagship system? > >The sound coming out of the K3 is mediocre at best. It is up to Elecraft to >provide a solution. If need be, I am willing to pay for it. > >Ramón Tristani >r.trist...@gmail.com > > > >__ >Elecraft mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 Speaker, Season finale
It is not easy for me to understand the rationale of many of the hams that recommend buying an old, battered CB speaker at a flea market to shine beside their K3/P3/KPA500 line up. It is like spending on an Armani suit and wearing it with a pair of old dirty sneakers bought second-hand at a yard sale. No kidding, I have seen that too! And all this for the sake of Elecraft, to save the company from the "shame" of having to use their talent to build a matching speaker enclosure? Somebody should have told Arthur Collins, but it is too late for that, I guess. Can you imagine somebody buying a Rolls Royce without tires only because Rolls Royce doesn't make tires? And last but not least, what is the science of designing a transceiver with so many advanced features if the output product, the sound coming out of the speaker, is mediocre at best? Why should a company hang the reputation of its product on some other manufacturer of cheap computer speakers that will not care for the excellence and expertise invested in Elecraft's flagship system? The sound coming out of the K3 is mediocre at best. It is up to Elecraft to provide a solution. If need be, I am willing to pay for it. Ramón Tristani r.trist...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
