Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Wes Stewart]

On morning (probably about 1980) I was beamed west at setting moon looking for 
Asia on 2M.  I heard a station calling CQ and said to myself, that's Dave's 
(W5UN) frequency.  Sure enough, it was Dave calling CQ.  So I tuned off him and 
heard another station calling CQ.  I listened and was surprised to hear Dave 
again.  I tuned back to the other frequency and Dave was still there, albeit 
with a different delay.  It finally dawned on me I was hearing him off the back 
of the antenna on tropo and off the moon from the front side.  Doppler and the 
time delay made it sound like two different stations.


Wes  N7WS

On 4/9/2017 5:29 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

Yes, back in the 70's, Yes, I am long in the tooth.  One of my friends up north was just getting on 
the air EME and he had a SUBSTANTIAL station and antenna and started calling, " Hello, 
hello"  and someone answered! he kept it up and then started to listen to the returned signal 
then he said, " I think I am talking to myself".   He recorded it and we all laughed at 
one on the early West Coast VHF conferences.  Those were the days my friends.
Mel, K6KBE



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Wes Stewart]

I worked W5UN on two-way SSB on 2M EME.

A local friend, John, W7BBM, has a homebrew(!) 30 foot dish on 1296, and up, and 
routinely says, "Hello moon" and receives speaker-quality returns.



On 4/9/2017 4:36 PM, Josh wrote:

SSB on EME? Wow!

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device


On Apr 9, 2017, at 4:13 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft  
wrote:

You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have a decent 
delay to get use to.

Mel, K6KBE


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

Yes, back in the 70's, Yes, I am long in the tooth.  One of my friends up north 
was just getting on the air EME and he had a SUBSTANTIAL station and antenna 
and started calling, " Hello, hello"  and someone answered! he kept it up and 
then started to listen to the returned signal then he said, " I think I am 
talking to myself".   He recorded it and we all laughed at one on the early 
West Coast VHF conferences.  Those were the days my friends.
Mel, K6KBE


  From: Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>
 To: Mel Farrer <farrerfo...@yahoo.com>; Elecraft Reflector 
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
 Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 5:20 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
   
Mel,

Guess you are unaware, but I am on 6m-eme, 2m-eme, and 23cm-eme. The RTLT is 
approx 2.5 seconds.  But voice is rarely used and emestations rarely operate in 
Duplex.  Of course one can receive yourown reflected signal for a short 
duration; that is called receiving yourecho.

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 03:13 PM 4/9/2017, Mel Farrer wrote:

You think that delay issomething try EME.  At least there you have a decent 
delay to getuse to.  

Mel, K6KBE



From: Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>
To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as itwere.

For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay 
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station 
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round 
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your 
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  Iwould 
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at anormal 
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.

Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to beheard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice - 
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when 
transmitting.

Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID:<79756624-997c-53c3-e4dc-4da4d2f2f...@subich.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
> objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker.The
> only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic rightin
> front of the external speaker with MON set at or nearmaximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable inthe
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivityheadphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the waythe
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com

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 73, Ed - KL7UW
 http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com

   
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Edward R Cole]

Mel,

Guess you are unaware, but I am on 6m-eme, 2m-eme, and 23cm-eme.  The 
RTLT is approx 2.5 seconds.  But voice is rarely used and eme 
stations rarely operate in Duplex.  Of course one can receive your 
own reflected signal for a short duration; that is called receiving your echo.


73, Ed - KL7UW

At 03:13 PM 4/9/2017, Mel Farrer wrote:
You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have 
a decent delay to get use to.


Mel, K6KBE



From: Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>
To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as it were.

For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  I would
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at a normal
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.

Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to be heard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice -
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when
transmitting.

Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID: 
<<mailto:79756624-997c-53c3-e4dc-4da4d2f2f...@subich.com>79756624-997c-53c3-e4dc-4da4d2f2f...@subich.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
> objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
> only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
> front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  <http://www.kl7uw.com/>http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  <mailto:dubus...@gmail.com>dubus...@gmail.com

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73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Josh]

SSB on EME? Wow!

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Apr 9, 2017, at 4:13 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have a decent 
> delay to get use to.  
> 
> Mel, K6KBE
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have a decent 
delay to get use to.  

Mel, K6KBE


  From: Edward R Cole <kl...@acsalaska.net>
 To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
 Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
   
Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly 
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing 
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of 
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just 
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as it were.

For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay 
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station 
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip 
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round 
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites 
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your 
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be 
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  I would 
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at a normal 
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.

Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to be heard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice - 
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when 
transmitting.

Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID: <79756624-997c-53c3-e4dc-4da4d2f2f...@subich.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
 > At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
 > objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
 > only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
 > front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Edward R Cole]

Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly 
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing 
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of 
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just 
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as it were.


For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay 
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station 
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip 
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round 
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites 
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your 
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be 
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  I would 
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at a normal 
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.


Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to be heard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice - 
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when 
transmitting.


Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID: <79756624-997c-53c3-e4dc-4da4d2f2f...@subich.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
> objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
> only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
> front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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[Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[john]

This depends on the monitor level and sensitive and proximity of the
microphone. While I do not typically use a speaker I am sure that I have
experienced monitor feedback with the K3S. All of my previous transceivers
had a monitor switch which made it easy to toggle off.

John KK9A


From: Joe Subich, W4TV 
Sat Apr 8 22:36:39 EDT 2017

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.


There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

OK, I just ran my test again, but this time turned the monitor up all the
way, and i did indeed hear monitor audio in the speakers. I stand
corrected, and sorry for muddying the waters.

No, I wasn't confusing Phones and Line Out.

At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not objectionable
(or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The only way I could
induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in front of the external
speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

I can't honestly think of any reason one would want TX monitor audio in a
loudspeaker, but I guess that's the way it works, so somebody must think
it's a good idea.  I can't say I've ever noticed it until doing this test.
Whether it results in audio feedback depends on your monitor level, your
mic, your speakers, and the placement of mic and speakers relative to each
other.



On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:



On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:


2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes
through the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX
audio comes through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does
not.



That is *NOT* my experience.  With 5.57, the front and rear panel
headphone jacks behave identically here.  You may be confusing the
Phones and Line Out jacks.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV



On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:


I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
at the time.  There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.

2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.


At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57.  I just tested
the two scenarios above.  For the record, my normal configuration is to
use
the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on.  I do have PF1
set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
shack.  I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting.
I
have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
I never do.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.

Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from
the
front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
placement.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont 
wrote:

On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:




On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:



The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.




It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
*THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
*headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).



I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
again. Thanks for the reminder.

On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.

There are switch contacts on the 

Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Luis V. Romero]

I will then restate my opinion:  

I and just about EVERYONE I have personally dealt with in my professional
experience with broadcast booths for recording voice over, technical
intercom, IFB feeds, musical talent and singers prefer to have SYNCHRONOUS
VOICE sidetone in their ears.  Remember last New Year's Show on ABC-TV?  The
non singing Mariah Carey?  She had clean mix minus in the floor monitors,
but no earpiece sidetone feed :)  

But there are exceptions.  You may be one of them.

Ever watch a TV liveshot where the person on camera yanks out their
earphone?  They are probably being fed DELAYED audio over the IFB.  That's a
really bad thing!  Some delay is acceptable, and some on camera talent are
very good with filtering out the delay.  Most cannot. This has become a
nightmare now in Digital transmission with the added latency introduced by
modulation codecs. Gone forever are the days of feeding main channel with
IFB over ProChannel or 450MHz BAS transmitters (although there are still
some stations out there that do this... Its "traditional").

And I will agree with you on HT carrying hams.  Especially Digital
Modulation ones.  There is copious processing delay with Digital Modulation.
That would drive most people mad!

I can sense the K3 delay when listening to my processing in my rig's
monitor. I find it within my window of manageability and I like to hear
sidetone in my headset as I have been accustomed to by 41 years of using
headsets over RTS/Clearcom/Riedell intercom in broadcast control rooms,
never on speaker.  I could live without it...  But I prefer to have it.  

However, I can also see 2 frames of video to audio delay... It's a curse,
not a blessing in the digital world we live in today.

You mileage obviously varies from mine, Ron!  Viva le difference!

73

Lu - W4LT
  

> -Original Message-
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:r...@cobi.biz]
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 6:52 PM
> To: lromer...@tampabay.rr.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
> 
> With respect, it's all what you have grown accustomed to. The AM and FM
> stations where I worked only had a speaker in the booth over which the DJ
> heard audio from the disk on the turntable or rare network feed. He/she
> never heard their own voice.
> 
> Same was true in aircraft and military radio comms. And I doubt if many
Hams
> today carrying an HT are disturbed by not hearing their own voices.
> 
> Sidetone in telephones was used to keep the person speaking from shouting
> (as they did in early phones). The higher the sidetone volume, the quieter
> the person would speak. We used that to great effect to tame a "shouter"
in
> bull-pen office environments. Unfortunately mobile (cellular) phones offer
> no such benefit.
> 
> My point is that I suspect that you are tapping into a change in
recording,
> broadcast and DJ work that is beginning to impact Ham operations.
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Luis
> V. Romero
> Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 10:04 AM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
> 
> All:
> 
> As a broadcast professional, I completely agree with the need to hear
one's
> voice as side tone in your headset while speaking.  Not hearing this does
> make one feel deaf.  This is a common feature in professional intercom
> systems as well as music performance monitoring for singers and
> instrumentalists and even your telephone!  It's not really a "nice to
have":
> In my opinion, it's a "must have".


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

With respect, it's all what you have grown accustomed to. The AM and FM
stations where I worked only had a speaker in the booth over which the DJ
heard audio from the disk on the turntable or rare network feed. He/she
never heard their own voice. 

Same was true in aircraft and military radio comms. And I doubt if many Hams
today carrying an HT are disturbed by not hearing their own voices. 

Sidetone in telephones was used to keep the person speaking from shouting
(as they did in early phones). The higher the sidetone volume, the quieter
the person would speak. We used that to great effect to tame a "shouter" in
bull-pen office environments. Unfortunately mobile (cellular) phones offer
no such benefit. 

My point is that I suspect that you are tapping into a change in recording,
broadcast and DJ work that is beginning to impact Ham operations. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Luis
V. Romero
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 10:04 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

All:

As a broadcast professional, I completely agree with the need to hear one's
voice as side tone in your headset while speaking.  Not hearing this does
make one feel deaf.  This is a common feature in professional intercom
systems as well as music performance monitoring for singers and
instrumentalists and even your telephone!  It's not really a "nice to have":
In my opinion, it's a "must have".


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Dave Fugleberg]

OK, I just ran my test again, but this time turned the monitor up all the
way, and i did indeed hear monitor audio in the speakers. I stand
corrected, and sorry for muddying the waters.

No, I wasn't confusing Phones and Line Out.

At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not objectionable
(or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The only way I could
induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in front of the external
speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

I can't honestly think of any reason one would want TX monitor audio in a
loudspeaker, but I guess that's the way it works, so somebody must think
it's a good idea.  I can't say I've ever noticed it until doing this test.
Whether it results in audio feedback depends on your monitor level, your
mic, your speakers, and the placement of mic and speakers relative to each
other.



On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
>
>> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes
>> through the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX
>> audio comes through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does
>> not.
>>
>
> That is *NOT* my experience.  With 5.57, the front and rear panel
> headphone jacks behave identically here.  You may be confusing the
> Phones and Line Out jacks.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
>
>> I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
>> and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
>> 1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
>> SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
>> used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
>> Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
>> at the time.  There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
>> whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.
>>
>> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
>> the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
>> through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.
>>
>>
>> At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57.  I just tested
>> the two scenarios above.  For the record, my normal configuration is to
>> use
>> the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on.  I do have PF1
>> set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
>> shack.  I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting.
>> I
>> have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
>> I never do.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.
>>
>> Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from
>> the
>> front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
>> speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
>> placement.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont 
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>>

 On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>
>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>> and common-sense requirement.
>>
>
 It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
 what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
 call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
 the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
 DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
 LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
 U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
 *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
 *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).

>>>
>>> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
>>> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>>>
>>> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
>>> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
>>> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>>>
>>> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
>>> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
>>> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
>>> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>>>
>>> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
>>> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
>>> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
>>> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
>>> true:
>>>
>>> Is the rig on a 

Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Richard Lamont]

On 08/04/17 21:21, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> You are looking for a solution that is unique to your own situation
> and would inconvenience hundreds of other users simply because you
> are too lazy to program a PF/Macro to toggle CONFIG:SPKR+PH when
> you use a headset.

Which part of the word "option" do you not understand?

73,
Richard G4DYA

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes
through the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX
audio comes through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does
not.


That is *NOT* my experience.  With 5.57, the front and rear panel
headphone jacks behave identically here.  You may be confusing the
Phones and Line Out jacks.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
at the time.  There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.

2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.


At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57.  I just tested
the two scenarios above.  For the record, my normal configuration is to use
the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on.  I do have PF1
set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
shack.  I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting.  I
have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
I never do.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.

Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from the
front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
placement.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont  wrote:


On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.


It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
*THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
*headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).


I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
again. Thanks for the reminder.

On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.

There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
of the speaker amplifier U1.

So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
true:

Is the rig on a voice mode?
Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
Is the rig transmitting?
Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?

If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.


73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 4/8/2017 2:02 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:

So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier.
This hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an
option to do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of
circumstances istrue:

>
> Is the rig on a voice mode?
> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
> Is the rig transmitting?
> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>

If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker
amplifier.


That is still a failure mode for all those who leave a headset (or
headphones) connected all the time but only put them on when using
a headset mic.  There is no way for the rig to to know if the device
connected to the front or rear headphone jack are 1) headphones only
only or 2) a headset (with mic) and 3) if the headset mic is actually
in use.

Yes, it it possible to turn off the speaker amplifier but there is
still no sensor that will tell if the headphones are actually in use
just like the YaeComWood mechanical switch can only tell if a plug
is inserted in the jack.

The speaker amplifier is currently disabled whenever headphones are
connected to either jack with CONFIG:SPkR+PH=No.  Disabling the speaker
amplifier whenever headphones are connected to either jack is
*unacceptable* to hundreds of other users who routinely leave headsets
connected - particularly those who use headsets connected to the rear
panel jacks (and before you say "mute on connecting to the front
headset jack" - the headset switches are also connected in parallel).

You are looking for a solution that is unique to your own situation
and would inconvenience hundreds of other users simply because you
are too lazy to program a PF/Macro to toggle CONFIG:SPKR+PH when
you use a headset.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/8/2017 2:02 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:

On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.


It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
*THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
*headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).


I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
again. Thanks for the reminder.

On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.

There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
of the speaker amplifier U1.

So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is true:

Is the rig on a voice mode?
Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
Is the rig transmitting?
Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?

If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.


73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Mike Harris]

Hi,

I use the rear panel jacks for my CM500 headset and I hear TX monitor in 
both configurations.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO




2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Dave Fugleberg]

I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
at the time.  There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.

2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.


At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57.  I just tested
the two scenarios above.  For the record, my normal configuration is to use
the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on.  I do have PF1
set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
shack.  I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting.  I
have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
I never do.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.

Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from the
front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
placement.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont  wrote:

> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
> >>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
> >>> and common-sense requirement.
> >
> > It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
> > what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
> > call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
> > the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
> > DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
> > LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
> > U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
> > *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
> > *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).
>
> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>
> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>
> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>
> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
> true:
>
> Is the rig on a voice mode?
> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
> Is the rig transmitting?
> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>
> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.
>
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Richard Lamont]

On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> 
>> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>>> and common-sense requirement.
> 
> It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
> what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
> call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
> the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
> DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
> LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
> U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
> *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
> *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).

I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
again. Thanks for the reminder.

On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.

There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
of the speaker amplifier U1.

So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is true:

Is the rig on a voice mode?
Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
Is the rig transmitting?
Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?

If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.


73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>> and common-sense requirement.

It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
call stupidity.  Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
the K3 which is published.   Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
*THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
*headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).

Changing the operation of the K3/K3S to enable monitor *only* when the
headphones are in use would cripple current operation *and* make it
impossible to monitor data and/or CW modes via the speaker.

As pointed out by many in this discussion, using CONFIG:SPKR+PH by
assigning it to a PF/Macro key to turn off the speaker when one is
using the headphones is a useful alternative.  That solution has been
used by many operators who leave their headphones connected at all
times *for many years*.

When you start proclaiming a "simple and common sense requirement" take
a little time to determine if the hardware will even support such
nonsense!  Note: *none* of the YaeComWood transceivers support such a
"simple and common sense requirement" - they all feed their headphones
from the speaker amplifier through a mechanical switch and current
limiting resistors!  At least the K3 design has enough sense to shut
off the high current speaker amplifier when it is not needed!

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Luis V. Romero]

All:

As a broadcast professional, I completely agree with the need to hear one's
voice as side tone in your headset while speaking.  Not hearing this does
make one feel deaf.  This is a common feature in professional intercom
systems as well as music performance monitoring for singers and
instrumentalists and even your telephone!  It's not really a "nice to have":
In my opinion, it's a "must have".

Yes, the rig doesn't do this automatically.  Yes you have to twiddle some
knobs to get it done.  However, there is a very simple solution that allows
this feature requirement with ONE BUTTON PUSH.  Yes it requires an external
device, but it also adds additional flexibility and features for an
insignificant price vs the cost of the radio.

This device is the Behringer MIX800 modular 4 channel dual stereo input
headphone mixer.

I have had this device in my K3 audio path for 9 years now. I feed the line
out of the K3 into this device.  Since I have a KRX3, I feed the main RX
into input #1's right channel and the second receiver into the left channel.
I set the radio to give me main in both ears and second receiver in left ear
only. Since the device has two inputs, the second input is left unused and
becomes "input mute".  I don't use the radio's front panel headset jack for
headphones at all.

This device has four independent headphone level outputs with 1/4inch stereo
jacks on both the front panel and the back panel. Each channel has an
independent level control and a/b input switching.  I feed channel 1 out to
my station speakers (Yamaha self powered computer speakers) via the rear
panel jack. I feed Channel 2 to my headset via this channel's front jack. I
feed channel 3 to my audio recorder using the rear jack.  Channel 4 is
unused, but permanently wired and ready to use as an output for anything
with just a 1/4inch stereo plug.

A push button on each channel controls routing/muting to each individual
line level output feed.  When I need to mute my speakers, I press the
channel 1 button.  The green light goes out, and my speakers mute.  When I
don't need to record the output, I press the channel 3 button, the green
light goes out and the channel is muted.  If I don't want to feed my
headset, I press the channel 2 button and my headset mutes (but both the
speakers and the recorder feeds stay on if I have them selected to be on.
All four outputs can be controlled individually in any combination of on or
off state at the same time, speakers, headset, recorder and auxiliary audio
because each is individually switched.

The BEST thing about this is that each channel has its own level pot. This
means that I can have the recorder level set and vary both the speaker level
and the headset level INDEPENDENTLY. I don't run monitor very loud at all at
any time, so I don't get feedback with monitor on the speaker line when I
use speakers.  When I record I get BOTH my transmit audio AND the receiver
audio, and in SPLIT I get BOTH the TX frequency AND the receive frequency on
all recordings. An added feature is that the headset mixer has its own
BALANCE control, so I can vary the ratio of the second receiver in my left
ear only vs the level of the main receiver in BOTH ears. with one pot, yet
STILL have independent output level when I want it with the radio's
concentric AF level pot. So I can have both features on at the same time:
Not possible with just the radio, it offers either one OR the other (Balance
OR Independent receiver out on the concentric pots).

If you have a second op, you can use the fourth channel for their headset
and they then have their own individual level control separate from yours,
your speakers and your recorder AND THEY WILL HEAR YOUR VOICE as well as the
receiver output. This is nice for things like Field Day or Contesting with a
"partner".

It's really the best $40USD I have ever spent on my station.  BTW,
absolutely no RF feedback into this unit on any band using my KPA500 at full
power.  No notice of its wall wart power supply in my receiver either.

I believe this device will solve this need for the rig as is.  While it
would be nice to have this all built in to the radio, its currently not, and
I believe it wouldn't be that high on the priority list for development. But
this solution is both cost effective and offers additional functionality for
a very little capital outlay.

It works for me here.  It may work for you if you require this
functionality.

73

Lu Romero - W4LT
Tampa, FL
K-Line system since 2010

XXX-
--

Rick,

Just to point out that I didn't write that.  I suspect something's gone 
awry with the nesting.

73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.

On 08/04/2017 15:42, Rick WA6NHC wrote:
> I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; it's an
> opinion.
>
> Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
> my experience) requirement.  There is often a slight phase shift and
> it's 

Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Richard Lamont]

On 08/04/17 15:42, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; its an
> opinion.
> 
> Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
> my experience) requirement.  There is often a slight phase shift and
> it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are
> satisfied with the silence.

Whether or not there's a 'need' to hear your own voice in the headphones
during transmit depends partly on the headphones. The better the
isolation of ambient sound they provide, the greater the attenuation of
the natural mouth-to-ear path. The two models of headphones I have both
provide excellent isolation of ambient sound. That's partly why I bought
them. (Originally for audio production work, not amateur radio.)
(Sennheiser HD25 and Beyerdynamic DT100.)

I find that so much isolation makes it difficult to speak. It feels as
though I've suddenly gone deaf.

The need to provide one's own voice in headphones, and keep it out of
any speakers in the same room, was recognised by radio broadcasters
decades ago. Pretty well every broadcast studio that's ever been built
caters for it.

I disagree that a 'slight phase shift' is distracting. A delay (of tens
of milliseconds or more) is distracting. Elecraft caters for this with
CONFIG:TXMON NOR or FAST. I use the latter and it sounds great.

> If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I
> daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're
> rather good at doing that.  Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an
> unknown.  However stridently insisting that any particular way is
> common sense that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way
> to endear oneself to those that are capable of creating a means to
> have it your way.

I'm not sure quite what your evidence is for any 'majority belief'.
And if the need to keep microphone audio out of the speaker is not
common sense ... then what is? Does not every engineer learn this at his
mother's knee? My pointing this out is not a criticism of Elecraft. (If
anything, Elecraft is ahead of the game by providing voice sidetone at all.)

> There IS a work around and you're aware of it.  The vinegar:honey
> rule applies.  Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective
> based.

I am aware of the workarounds. I am also aware why they don't work for
me. You might not necessarily be aware of the latter, but thank you anyway.


73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Phil, GJ4CBQ]

Rick,

Just to point out that I didn't write that.  I suspect something's gone 
awry with the nesting.


73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.

On 08/04/2017 15:42, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; its an
opinion.

Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
my experience) requirement.  There is often a slight phase shift and
it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are
satisfied with the silence.

If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I
daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're rather
good at doing that.  Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an unknown.
However stridently insisting that any particular way is common sense
that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way to endear oneself
to those that are capable of creating a means to have it your way.

There IS a work around and you're aware of it.  The vinegar:honey rule
applies.  Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective based.

Rick wa6nhc


On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:

When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
headphones, but not the speakers.

I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Rick WA6NHC]

I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; its an opinion.

Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to 
my experience) requirement.  There is often a slight phase shift and 
it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are 
satisfied with the silence.


If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I 
daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're rather 
good at doing that.  Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an unknown.  
However stridently insisting that any particular way is common sense 
that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way to endear oneself 
to those that are capable of creating a means to have it your way.


There IS a work around and you're aware of it.  The vinegar:honey rule 
applies.  Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective based.


Rick wa6nhc


On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:

When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
headphones, but not the speakers.

I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Martin Sole]

I'd like this functionality as well.

Phones either plugged in or not, RX audio only out of the speaker, RX 
audio and TX monitor in the phones.


Maybe a toggle in the settings for the monitor, speaker, phones or both. 
Monitor level remains as set.


Martin, HS0ZED



On 08/04/2017 12:24, Richard Lamont wrote:

On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:


It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.

What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
of a macro.

The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this.  And yes, I've been
using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.

Thank you. At last, someone has actually read my post!

When operating SSB, I like to listen on speakers. If I need to fish a
weak one out of the crud, I'll grab the headphones and plug them into
the front panel jack. At the end of that QSO, I'll unplug and go back to
speakers.

When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
headphones, but not the speakers.

I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.


73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Phil, GJ4CBQ]

Thank you Richard.

Having slept on it, I realised that my earlier retraction, as a result 
of Joe's posting, was somewhat hasty.  I blame tiredness.


It all hinges on Joe's statement:

"Richard admits that he does not need the speakers when he is using 
headphones/operating SSB"


Re-reading the posts this morning confirmed that you hadn't actually 
said that.


My posting yesterday evening was based on the understanding that you 
wanted to operate SSB using either speaker or phones.  Thanks for 
confirming this.  Prior to my original posting I tested CONFIG:SPRK+PH 
on my own K3 and confirmed that it didn't toggle the monitor function.


73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.



On 08/04/2017 10:24, Richard Lamont wrote:

On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:


It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.

What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
of a macro.

The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this.  And yes, I've been
using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.


Thank you. At last, someone has actually read my post!

When operating SSB, I like to listen on speakers. If I need to fish a
weak one out of the crud, I'll grab the headphones and plug them into
the front panel jack. At the end of that QSO, I'll unplug and go back to
speakers.

When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
headphones, but not the speakers.

I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.


73,
Richard G4DYA

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Richard Lamont]

On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:

> It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.
> 
> What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
> function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
> of a macro.
> 
> The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this.  And yes, I've been
> using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.

Thank you. At last, someone has actually read my post!

When operating SSB, I like to listen on speakers. If I need to fish a
weak one out of the crud, I'll grab the headphones and plug them into
the front panel jack. At the end of that QSO, I'll unplug and go back to
speakers.

When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
headphones, but not the speakers.

I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.


73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Phil, GJ4CBQ]

Fair comment, Joe.

My apologies.  Your original posting was spot-on.  I was distracted by 
mention of button assignments and macros; as your solution implies, not 
needed.


Interesting discussion, nonetheless.

73,
Phil.


On 07/04/2017 22:42, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


Phil,

*You* need to read the responses.  If Richard will *TURN OFF*
CONFIG:SPRK+PH, there will be no monitor feedback when using
the headphones.  Simple, effective, and completely documented
in the Owner's Manual (and has been since the very first K3).

Richard admits that he does not need the speakers when he is
using headphones/operating SSB.  There is no reason not to
simply mute the speakers when using phones.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Phil,

*You* need to read the responses.  If Richard will *TURN OFF*
CONFIG:SPRK+PH, there will be no monitor feedback when using
the headphones.  Simple, effective, and completely documented
in the Owner's Manual (and has been since the very first K3).

Richard admits that he does not need the speakers when he is
using headphones/operating SSB.  There is no reason not to
simply mute the speakers when using phones.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/7/2017 3:19 PM, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:

Jim,

It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.

What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
of a macro.

The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this.  And yes, I've been
using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.

Bob's suggestion of using the line out sounds promising, but I think
Richard is looking for a solution that doesn't involve an external
headphone amplifier.

73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.



On 07/04/2017 19:06, Jim Brown wrote:

Richard,

Do you not read responses to your posts? Or do you reject anything that
contradicts what you seem to have made up your mind to believe? Several
of us have told you exactly how to accomplish what you want to do. I've
been doing it for almost as long as I've owned a K3 (2008 for the first
one).  NO changes are needed to the radio or the firmware. It's all
there. All you have to do is follow the advice you have been given. I
also suggest that you study the manual for the radio. It's all there.

73, Jim K9YC

On Fri,4/7/2017 1:03 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

As there appears to be no way of doing this at the moment, I guess this
is a firmware feature request.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Graham Kimbell]

I have spkrs and phones on all the time and with mon set to a low value 
between 3 and 6, I can hear myself in the phones, but there's no 
feedback from the speakers. Does this help?


Graham

On 07/04/2017 15:47, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

  When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
>   audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.
>  
>   I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the

>   headphones, without having to do anything else.
>  
>   Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?
   

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Phil, GJ4CBQ]

Jim,

It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.

What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor 
function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use 
of a macro.


The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this.  And yes, I've been 
using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.


Bob's suggestion of using the line out sounds promising, but I think 
Richard is looking for a solution that doesn't involve an external 
headphone amplifier.


73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.



On 07/04/2017 19:06, Jim Brown wrote:

Richard,

Do you not read responses to your posts? Or do you reject anything that
contradicts what you seem to have made up your mind to believe? Several
of us have told you exactly how to accomplish what you want to do. I've
been doing it for almost as long as I've owned a K3 (2008 for the first
one).  NO changes are needed to the radio or the firmware. It's all
there. All you have to do is follow the advice you have been given. I
also suggest that you study the manual for the radio. It's all there.

73, Jim K9YC

On Fri,4/7/2017 1:03 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

As there appears to be no way of doing this at the moment, I guess this
is a firmware feature request.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Bob Wilson, N6TV]

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Richard Lamont  wrote:

> I'm just trying to keep the TX mon audio (from the mic) in the
> headphones and out of the speakers, without having to use macros or
> fiddling with controls. (All my macro buttons are used up, and if I
> forgot to push the button I'd be either missing sidetone or getting
> feedback next time I transmit. And fiddling with controls wastes time in
> a contest or pileup.)
>

To repeat, try setting MON to 0, and connect headphones to the LIN OUT jack
(perhaps through a PC), and set CONFIG:LIN OUT to =Phones.  Tap [2] and set
the the LINE OUT MON level (T=) at the LIN OUT jack to a comfortable
level.  Then leave your headphones plugged in there.

Now there is no way that TX MON audio will get to the mic. via the
speakers, but you will hear plenty of monitor in the headphones (always).
To mute the speakers, plug something into the headphone jack (doesn't have
to be headphones).  To unmute, unplug.  Leave your headphones connected all
the time, to the LINE OUT jack.

If you want to operate CW with speakers (really?) you'l have to turn up the
monitor.  You won't have to fiddle with anything else unless you're trying
to use the SubRx.


> As there appears to be no way of doing this at the moment, I guess this is
> a firmware feature request.
>

It's not clear if the hardware is capable of routing the voice monitor to
the headphones without also routing it to the speaker.  You can set the
LINE OUT monitor level separately from the speaker / headphone monitor
level, which comes pretty close to what you need.  I guess what you're
asking for boils down to a request for three independent monitor level
settings:

1. Speakers
2. Headphones
3. Line out

And you also probably want different monitor level's to be remembered for
each mode.

73,
Bob, N6TV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Jim Brown]

Richard,

Do you not read responses to your posts? Or do you reject anything that 
contradicts what you seem to have made up your mind to believe? Several 
of us have told you exactly how to accomplish what you want to do. I've 
been doing it for almost as long as I've owned a K3 (2008 for the first 
one).  NO changes are needed to the radio or the firmware. It's all 
there. All you have to do is follow the advice you have been given. I 
also suggest that you study the manual for the radio. It's all there.


73, Jim K9YC

On Fri,4/7/2017 1:03 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

As there appears to be no way of doing this at the moment, I guess this
is a firmware feature request.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

[Richard Lamont]

On 07/04/17 06:59, Bob Wilson, N6TV wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Richard Lamont  > wrote:
> 
> When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
> audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.
> 
> I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
> headphones, without having to do anything else.
> 
> Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?
> 
> It's a reasonable feature request, though I'm not aware of any other rig
> that automatically turns the mic. monitor ON when you plug in
> headphones, and automatically turns the mic. monitor OFF when you unplug
> headphones and listen on a speaker.  Of course this is something you
> only want to do on phone.  When operating CW, and maybe digital, you
> always want the monitor ON, even when using speakers.

Agreed 100%.

When you plug headphones in, there's a delay of about a second before
the speakers mute. This strongly suggests that the muting is controlled
by software, not just by cutting the speaker analogue audio directly on
the back contacts of the headphone jack. So presumably the rig's
software 'knows' when headphones are plugged in.

> I do not understand you want to listen to both headphones and speakers
> at the same time, unless you have someone else in the shack who wants to
> hear what's going on  with no risk of feedback from the speakers.

I don't wish to listen simultaneously on both headphones and speakers.
That isn't the problem.

I'm just trying to keep the TX mon audio (from the mic) in the
headphones and out of the speakers, without having to use macros or
fiddling with controls. (All my macro buttons are used up, and if I
forgot to push the button I'd be either missing sidetone or getting
feedback next time I transmit. And fiddling with controls wastes time in
a contest or pileup.)

I use 'enclosing' headphones (Sennheiser HD25, Beyer DT100) that mean I
cannot hear my own voice well enough without some sidetone, and this
makes speech more difficult.

As there appears to be no way of doing this at the moment, I guess this
is a firmware feature request.

I'm not aware of any other rig that does what I'm asking for.
Historically, however, rigs had a single audio power amplifier and
relied on 'dumb' switching of the amplified audio using the back contact
on the headphone jack to mute the speaker. I'm inferring from the one
second delay mentioned above that the K3S hardware is capable of
supporting a smarter approach, even if firmware doesn't, yet.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Bob Wilson, N6TV]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Richard Lamont  wrote:

> When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
> audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.
>
> I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
> headphones, without having to do anything else.
>
> Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?
>

It's a reasonable feature request, though I'm not aware of any other rig
that automatically turns the mic. monitor ON when you plug in headphones,
and automatically turns the mic. monitor OFF when you unplug headphones and
listen on a speaker.  Of course this is something you only want to do on
phone.  When operating CW, and maybe digital, you always want the monitor
ON, even when using speakers.

I do not understand you want to listen to both headphones and speakers at
the same time, unless you have someone else in the shack who wants to hear
what's going on  with no risk of feedback from the speakers.

Set MIC MON level to 0.  Instead of listening on the headphone jack,
connect your headphones to the LINE OUT jack, through an external headphone
amplifier or the stereo LINE IN jack on a desktop PC sound card (and plug
your headphones into the PC or headphone amp.).  Note that MIC jacks on PCs
may use stereo plugs, but they are almost always MONO inputs that cannot
handle LINE level audio well.

For convenience, set CONFIG:LIN OUT to =PHONES by tapping [1].  This allows
the AF Gain knobs on the K3 to control the line out level.  If running K3
Beta firmware 5.58 or later, tap [2] to to set the "T=" (TX monitor) level
on the LINE OUT jack (this is a new feature).  This setting is independent
of the MON knob on the front.  Tap [2] again to return to the prior menu
state.

I don't have a radio in front of me, so I can't remember what happens in
the right audio channel when CONFIG:LIN OUT is set to =PHONES.  Normally
the right channel of LINE OUT is "dead" until you turn on the SubRx by
tapping SUB.

If you don't have the SubRx, all you have to do is listen to the left
channel audio in both ears.  You'll hear the mic. monitor in LINE OUT but
not the K3 speakers.

If you have the SubRx, you may have to use a switch to split your ears to
both LINE OUT left and right channels when SUB is enabled, and left channel
only in both ears when SUB is not enabled.  You could in theory use an
external relay triggered by the DIGOUT1 pin on the K3 accessory port and a
macro assign to a function key to automatically control the headphone
switching externally *and* toggle the SUB ON or OFF simultaneously, but I
don't know of anyone who has bothered to try this.

SubRx ON  & DIGOUT1 ON:   SB1;MN019;MP001;MN255;
SubRx OFF & DIGOUT1 OFF:  SB0:MN019;MP000;MN255;

73,
Bob, N6TV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Walter Underwood]

Hmm. Might need an external volume control. I used this setup to boost the 
audio output and drive speakers with my KX3, but it might work with the K3. The 
K3 is capable of much higher audio output, but if you tap off the headphone 
audio, this will probably work.

This uses a 12V audio amp (stereo, 15W per channel) with a volume control. The 
price seems to range from $8 to $12, but it is affordable regardless.

https://observer.wunderwood.org/2017/03/04/speakers-for-my-elecraft-kx3/ 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 4:39 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> To prevent monitor audio from the microphone from reaching the
>> speaker, while keeping it going to the headphones, and to do this
>> without operator intervention, seems a simple enough requirement.
> 
> If you do not want speaker audio when using headphones set
> CONFIG:SPRK+PH = OFF *AS DOCUMENTED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL!*.
> 
> The K3 DSP has *one output* that feeds both the headphone amplifier
> and the speaker amplifier.  There is no hardware to permit different
> audio feeds to the headphone and speakers.
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 4/6/2017 6:08 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>> Barry,
>> 
>> Thank you. You've confirmed what I suspected: that the desired
>> functionality doesn't exist.
>> 
>> To prevent monitor audio from the microphone from reaching the speaker,
>> while keeping it going to the headphones, and to do this without
>> operator intervention, seems a simple enough requirement.
>> 
>> Having to fiddle with the monitor level after plugging or unplugging
>> headphones is a right pain. What I'm asking for seems such a no-brainer
>> I can't believe it isn't standard. Why on earth would anyone want their
>> live microphone audio routed to the speaker? It's a transceiver, not a
>> public address system.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Richard G4DYA
>> 
>> On 06/04/17 22:30, Barry Simpson wrote:
>>> Richard
>>> 
>>> I do not believe that the K3 can do what you want. The monitor is either
>>> on or off independently of whether you are listening through the speaker
>>> or headphones.
>>> 
>>> If you mainly listen through the speaker, just turn the monitor to zero
>>> and them turn it up when you wear headphones.
>>> 
>>> I think that is the only way.
>>> 
>>> 73
>>> 
>>> Barry  VK2BJ
>>> 
>>> On 7 April 2017 at 06:53, Richard Lamont >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>>My previous post might not have made it clear what I'm trying to achieve
>>>with the K3S.
>>> 
>>>For RX audio, I usually listen on speakers. These mute when I plug the
>>>headphones in. That's standard and obvious and just what I want.
>>> 
>>>When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
>>>audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.
>>> 
>>>I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
>>>headphones, without having to do anything else.
>>> 
>>>Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?
>>> 
>>>73,
>>>Richard G4DYA
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Mike Harris]

The K3 is the only transceiver I've used with this facility. Monitor 
level is saved per mode. I have SSB = 4, CW = 10 and Data = 5.
I never notice any monitor audio on SSB, neither do I particularly feel 
the need and could just as well turn it off. Sidetone on telephones was 
an attempt to stop folks shouting. Maybe a lack of it is why you can 
hear the one sided conversations of folks talking on mobiles from across 
the street.


For me CW monitor is for sidetone and Data monitor is just a gentle 
background burble to indicate all seems to be working.


The house is pretty quiet and at nearly 69y my hearing is OK not having 
been exposed regularly to damaging noise levels. I usually use CM500 
phones anyway with CONFIG AF GAIN = LO and the AF gain pot seldom above 
9 o'clock.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO



On 06/04/2017 19:08, Richard Lamont wrote:

Barry,

Thank you. You've confirmed what I suspected: that the desired
functionality doesn't exist.

To prevent monitor audio from the microphone from reaching the speaker,
while keeping it going to the headphones, and to do this without
operator intervention, seems a simple enough requirement.

Having to fiddle with the monitor level after plugging or unplugging
headphones is a right pain. What I'm asking for seems such a no-brainer
I can't believe it isn't standard. Why on earth would anyone want their
live microphone audio routed to the speaker? It's a transceiver, not a
public address system.

73,
Richard G4DYA

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

To prevent monitor audio from the microphone from reaching the
speaker, while keeping it going to the headphones, and to do this
without operator intervention, seems a simple enough requirement.


If you do not want speaker audio when using headphones set
CONFIG:SPRK+PH = OFF *AS DOCUMENTED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL!*.

The K3 DSP has *one output* that feeds both the headphone amplifier
and the speaker amplifier.  There is no hardware to permit different
audio feeds to the headphone and speakers.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/6/2017 6:08 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:

Barry,

Thank you. You've confirmed what I suspected: that the desired
functionality doesn't exist.

To prevent monitor audio from the microphone from reaching the speaker,
while keeping it going to the headphones, and to do this without
operator intervention, seems a simple enough requirement.

Having to fiddle with the monitor level after plugging or unplugging
headphones is a right pain. What I'm asking for seems such a no-brainer
I can't believe it isn't standard. Why on earth would anyone want their
live microphone audio routed to the speaker? It's a transceiver, not a
public address system.

73,
Richard G4DYA

On 06/04/17 22:30, Barry Simpson wrote:

Richard

I do not believe that the K3 can do what you want. The monitor is either
on or off independently of whether you are listening through the speaker
or headphones.

If you mainly listen through the speaker, just turn the monitor to zero
and them turn it up when you wear headphones.

I think that is the only way.

73

Barry  VK2BJ

On 7 April 2017 at 06:53, Richard Lamont > wrote:

My previous post might not have made it clear what I'm trying to achieve
with the K3S.

For RX audio, I usually listen on speakers. These mute when I plug the
headphones in. That's standard and obvious and just what I want.

When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.

I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
headphones, without having to do anything else.

Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?

73,
Richard G4DYA




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Bill Frantz]

You can write a macro to control the monitor level. Use the ML command.

ML (Monitor Level; GET/SET)

SET/RSP format: MLxxx; where xxx is 000-060. Applies to current 
mode (CW sidetone, voice, or data). In voice modes, applies to 
MON level, even if DVR monitor level is independent (MAIN:TX DVR).


See: 
 
for details. Setting the level to zero is one of the examples.


On 4/6/17 at 3:08 PM, rich...@lamont.me.uk (Richard Lamont) wrote:


Having to fiddle with the monitor level after plugging or unplugging
headphones is a right pain.


---
Bill Frantz|Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Richard Lamont]

Barry,

Thank you. You've confirmed what I suspected: that the desired
functionality doesn't exist.

To prevent monitor audio from the microphone from reaching the speaker,
while keeping it going to the headphones, and to do this without
operator intervention, seems a simple enough requirement.

Having to fiddle with the monitor level after plugging or unplugging
headphones is a right pain. What I'm asking for seems such a no-brainer
I can't believe it isn't standard. Why on earth would anyone want their
live microphone audio routed to the speaker? It's a transceiver, not a
public address system.

73,
Richard G4DYA

On 06/04/17 22:30, Barry Simpson wrote:
> Richard
> 
> I do not believe that the K3 can do what you want. The monitor is either
> on or off independently of whether you are listening through the speaker
> or headphones.
> 
> If you mainly listen through the speaker, just turn the monitor to zero
> and them turn it up when you wear headphones.
> 
> I think that is the only way.
> 
> 73
> 
> Barry  VK2BJ
> 
> On 7 April 2017 at 06:53, Richard Lamont  > wrote:
> 
> My previous post might not have made it clear what I'm trying to achieve
> with the K3S.
> 
> For RX audio, I usually listen on speakers. These mute when I plug the
> headphones in. That's standard and obvious and just what I want.
> 
> When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
> audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.
> 
> I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
> headphones, without having to do anything else.
> 
> Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?
> 
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 


-- 
Richard Lamont

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Barry Simpson]

Richard

I do not believe that the K3 can do what you want. The monitor is either on
or off independently of whether you are listening through the speaker or
headphones.

If you mainly listen through the speaker, just turn the monitor to zero and
them turn it up when you wear headphones.

I think that is the only way.

73

Barry  VK2BJ

On 7 April 2017 at 06:53, Richard Lamont  wrote:

> My previous post might not have made it clear what I'm trying to achieve
> with the K3S.
>
> For RX audio, I usually listen on speakers. These mute when I plug the
> headphones in. That's standard and obvious and just what I want.
>
> When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
> audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.
>
> I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
> headphones, without having to do anything else.
>
> Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,4/6/2017 1:53 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:

Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?


Yes. It's easy. In a post a few hours ago, I described the process. And 
it's in the manual. See the large tabulated description of Menu Settings.



73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Richard Lamont]

My previous post might not have made it clear what I'm trying to achieve
with the K3S.

For RX audio, I usually listen on speakers. These mute when I plug the
headphones in. That's standard and obvious and just what I want.

When I'm using a voice mode with a microphone, I need the TX monitor
audio to appear in the headphones and NOT the speakers.

I need this to happen automatically, every time I plug in or unplug the
headphones, without having to do anything else.

Is there any way of configuring the rig to do precisely this?

73,
Richard G4DYA




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Jim Brown]

Hi Richard,

There's a menu setting for SPKR + PHONES (from memory, I think that's 
what it's called) that toggles the speaker on and off. I assign that 
function to one of the soft buttons. Works great!


73, Jim K9YC

On Thu,4/6/2017 11:30 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

It would be useful when operating SSB to be able to hear my own voice in
the headphones, but not on the speaker, where it can cause feedback.

Is there any way of configuring the rig so that when using a voice mode
with a microphone, the TX monitor feeds the headphones but not the
speaker(s)?

73,
Richard G4DYA

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Don Wilhelm]

Richard,

Certainly, turn the MON to zero - either manually or with a Macro.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/6/2017 2:30 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:


Is there any way of configuring the rig so that when using a voice mode
with a microphone, the TX monitor feeds the headphones but not the
speaker(s)?

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[Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor

[Richard Lamont]

It would be useful when operating SSB to be able to hear my own voice in
the headphones, but not on the speaker, where it can cause feedback.

Is there any way of configuring the rig so that when using a voice mode
with a microphone, the TX monitor feeds the headphones but not the
speaker(s)?

73,
Richard G4DYA

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