Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Jessie Oberreuter]

 This is mostly a problem if you have external transverters, amps, 
pre-amps, etc. that don't take kindly to QSK operation.


 My solution to this problem is to use the PTT (a foot-switch in my 
case) to key the transverters, but not the rig.  I'm using a stack of 
Elecraft's external transverters connected to the low-level XV interface. 
If I key the rig without first keying the transverters, nothing happens; 
the low level drivers aren't phased by being unterminated.  When I press 
the foot switch, the selected transverter goes through its regular 
sequencing, but doesn't key the K3, so CW-in-SSB still works.


 I personally leave the K3 in vox mode, but the situation is the same 
with, say, a hand-mike.  Push the foot switch to sequence the 
transverters, amps, pre-amps, etc., then PTT on the mike or just have at 
it with the keys/paddles.


 In terms of wiring, I simply disconnected the transverter stack's 
key-in and key-out lines from the K3, and wired a foot switch to the 
stack's key-in line.


-kb7psg


On Wed, 5 Jul 2017, Ian White wrote:


It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting
on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB
makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.

73  -  Jim   K8MR


But Elecraft's implementation of CW-in-SSB contains a bug that makes it almost 
unusable for the intended purpose.

If signals are too weak for SSB, then it is almost always necessary to use 
*slow* CW - probably much slower than the regular CW settings, resulting in 
frequent and unwanted relay dropouts.

The normal, obvious 'fix' for these dropouts is to engage PTT for the duration 
of the transmission, and this works fine in regular CW mode. But when using 
CW-in-SSB it inexplicably does the exact opposite: engaging PTT *disallows* all 
CW output!

This bug has been reported a number of times and is still waiting to be fixed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Wayne Burdick]

This would be a fairly complex change to the normal T/R sequencer. Sorry we 
haven’t gotten to it yet.

Meanwhile, there’s a simple workaround that works well:

1. In CONFIG:CW WGHT, tap ‘5’ to select “VFO OFS” mode, then exit the menu. 
With VFO OFS in effect, changing from SSB to CW mode will shift the VFO 
frequency by an amount equal to your CW sidetone pitch, automatically 
positioning it so that hitting the key will result in the other station hearing 
a tone.

2. During operation, if you need to use CW, just change modes. You can then use 
PTT. If you change back to SSB, the VFO offset will be removed.

Wayne
N6KR



> On Jul 5, 2017, at 5:53 AM, Ian White  wrote:
> 
>> It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting
>> on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB
>> makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.
>> 
>> 73  -  Jim   K8MR
> 
> But Elecraft's implementation of CW-in-SSB contains a bug that makes it 
> almost unusable for the intended purpose. 
> 
> If signals are too weak for SSB, then it is almost always necessary to use 
> *slow* CW - probably much slower than the regular CW settings, resulting in 
> frequent and unwanted relay dropouts. 
> 
> The normal, obvious 'fix' for these dropouts is to engage PTT for the 
> duration of the transmission, and this works fine in regular CW mode. But 
> when using CW-in-SSB it inexplicably does the exact opposite: engaging PTT 
> *disallows* all CW output!
> 
> This bug has been reported a number of times and is still waiting to be fixed.
> 
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Ian White]

> It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting
>on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB
>makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.
>
>73  -  Jim   K8MR

But Elecraft's implementation of CW-in-SSB contains a bug that makes it almost 
unusable for the intended purpose. 

If signals are too weak for SSB, then it is almost always necessary to use 
*slow* CW - probably much slower than the regular CW settings, resulting in 
frequent and unwanted relay dropouts. 

The normal, obvious 'fix' for these dropouts is to engage PTT for the duration 
of the transmission, and this works fine in regular CW mode. But when using 
CW-in-SSB it inexplicably does the exact opposite: engaging PTT *disallows* all 
CW output!

This bug has been reported a number of times and is still waiting to be fixed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Jim Stahl via Elecraft]

 It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting on 
SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB makes 
it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.


73  -  Jim   K8MR

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Dauer, Edward <eda...@law.du.edu>
To: elecraft <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tue, Jul 4, 2017 8:44 pm
Subject: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

Regarding keying to produce CW in SSB mode – I mean this as a question, not a 
criticism – why would someone want to do it?  If both ends of the QSO are using 
SSB then, as I understand it, there is no relative frequency offset between 
them.  But there would be for any other station using CW mode for CW.  Do I 
have that right?  If so, what’s the advantage of using SSB mode for CW 
operations?  Is it that using SSB allows programmed keying from a computer 
generated audio tone?  Wouldn’t something like a Winkeyer and N1MM allow the 
same operation in CW mode itself?

Ted, KN1CBR


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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Bill Frantz]

RUMlogNG will use RS-232 commands to the K3(S) to send CW, PSK31 
and RTTY for Mac users.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/4/17 at 6:32 AM, rmcg...@blomand.net (Bob McGraw K4TAX) wrote:

If your software provides CW via the KY CMD, as in HRD/DM780, 
this is direct CW and is handled in the CW mode by the K3S. Sweet!


---
Bill Frantz| Can't fix stupid, but duct   | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | tape can muffle the sound... | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |   - Bill Liebman | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode [explained]

[Ed K1EP]

Wayne, I have used this feature in the past with success and like it on 6M.
However, we recently switched to a setup where we need to sequence the amp
and relays, making the use of PTT (foot switch) mandatory. I turned off VOX
and breakin, but hitting the paddle in this mode still acts like VOX is
enabled and runs the risk of hot switching relays. Is it possible to make
that PTT TX too?

On Jul 4, 2017 12:58 PM, "Wayne Burdick"  wrote:

> The K3, K3S, KX2 and KX3 all have a menu option for “automatic VFO offset
> on SSB/CW mode change.” When this is turned on, the operator can switch
> from SSB to CW mode, hit the key, and have the other station hear them at
> approximately their sidetone pitch. The VFO frequency is offset to achieve
> this. When automatic offset is turned off (the default), switching from SSB
> to CW mode does not move the VFO frequency, which means that hitting the
> key would result in the other station hearing you at zero beat.
>
> To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘5’. The
> setting will alternate between VFO OFS and VFO NOR.
>
> This feature was specifically added for the situation described, where
> fading (typically on 6 m) compels one or both stations to switch to CW mode.
>
> However, an easier way to send CW in SSB mode is to just make sure “SSB
> +CW” is in effect in the menu. In this case you can be in SSB mode and
> simply hit the key to transmit CW with an automatic offset that the other
> station will hear as roughly your sidetone pitch. Two stations using
> Elecraft radios could both be in SSB mode, and hear each other when hitting
> the key without either having to change modes.
>
> To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘1’ .The
> setting will alternate between SSB +CW and SSB -CW.
>
> Note that "SSB +CW" mode is *not* like using audio-tone CW in SSB mode. If
> you hit the key in SSB mode and SSB +CW is in effect, the radio actually
> does switch to CW mode each time you hit the key.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 3, 2017, at 12:41 PM, Ryan Noguchi via Elecraft <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way
> off my frequency.  It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it
> at the time...>Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB
> which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don
> suggests, 1200) Hz?
> >
> >
> > Yes, I think I experienced this last weekend. I answered a CQ on 6M SSB,
> then we agreed to switch to CW on the same frequency. When I switched to CW
> mode on my KX3, no one was there, but I saw a faint narrow signal appear
> off to the side on the PX3. After several seconds of waiting and debating,
> I had a hunch that was my op, so I QSYed to that frequency and found him,
> and we completed the QSO on that frequency. His filter sandwich must have
> been pretty wide for him to copy me, so he was probably still in SSB mode.
> >
> > Detecting off-frequency callers outside my narrow filter passband is yet
> another reason why I find the PX3 indispensible.
> >
> > 73, Ryan AI6DO
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[David Pratt]

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[Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode [explained]

[Wayne Burdick]

The K3, K3S, KX2 and KX3 all have a menu option for “automatic VFO offset on 
SSB/CW mode change.” When this is turned on, the operator can switch from SSB 
to CW mode, hit the key, and have the other station hear them at approximately 
their sidetone pitch. The VFO frequency is offset to achieve this. When 
automatic offset is turned off (the default), switching from SSB to CW mode 
does not move the VFO frequency, which means that hitting the key would result 
in the other station hearing you at zero beat.

To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘5’. The setting 
will alternate between VFO OFS and VFO NOR.

This feature was specifically added for the situation described, where fading 
(typically on 6 m) compels one or both stations to switch to CW mode.

However, an easier way to send CW in SSB mode is to just make sure “SSB +CW” is 
in effect in the menu. In this case you can be in SSB mode and simply hit the 
key to transmit CW with an automatic offset that the other station will hear as 
roughly your sidetone pitch. Two stations using Elecraft radios could both be 
in SSB mode, and hear each other when hitting the key without either having to 
change modes.

To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘1’ .The setting 
will alternate between SSB +CW and SSB -CW.

Note that "SSB +CW" mode is *not* like using audio-tone CW in SSB mode. If you 
hit the key in SSB mode and SSB +CW is in effect, the radio actually does 
switch to CW mode each time you hit the key.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




> On Jul 3, 2017, at 12:41 PM, Ryan Noguchi via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my 
>> frequency.  It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the 
>> time...>Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which 
>> resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 
>> 1200) Hz?
> 
> 
> Yes, I think I experienced this last weekend. I answered a CQ on 6M SSB, then 
> we agreed to switch to CW on the same frequency. When I switched to CW mode 
> on my KX3, no one was there, but I saw a faint narrow signal appear off to 
> the side on the PX3. After several seconds of waiting and debating, I had a 
> hunch that was my op, so I QSYed to that frequency and found him, and we 
> completed the QSO on that frequency. His filter sandwich must have been 
> pretty wide for him to copy me, so he was probably still in SSB mode. 
> 
> Detecting off-frequency callers outside my narrow filter passband is yet 
> another reason why I find the PX3 indispensible.
> 
> 73, Ryan AI6DO
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[Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Dauer, Edward]

Regarding keying to produce CW in SSB mode – I mean this as a question, not a 
criticism – why would someone want to do it?  If both ends of the QSO are using 
SSB then, as I understand it, there is no relative frequency offset between 
them.  But there would be for any other station using CW mode for CW.  Do I 
have that right?  If so, what’s the advantage of using SSB mode for CW 
operations?  Is it that using SSB allows programmed keying from a computer 
generated audio tone?  Wouldn’t something like a Winkeyer and N1MM allow the 
same operation in CW mode itself?

Ted, KN1CBR
--

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:42:28 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm <donw...@embarqmail.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode
Message-ID: <08550fb7-cf90-0caf-ae0b-d24106a70...@embarqmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

. . . 

The K3 CW in SSB mode is different because it is real keyed CW from the 
paddles of keying input.  Yes, the carrier is shifted by the sidetone 
pitch so a station listening in SSB mode will hear the tone.

73,
Don W3FPR
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Ted, Fred et al;

As a rule using the SSB mode to send CW is very risky at best. Any hum 
or distortion, meaning the smallest amount,  on the CW generated audio 
signal will produce harmonics of the fundamental audio tone .   These 
will  pass through the SSB generator and sideband filter and thus be 
transmitted.  {i.e. - 700, 1400, 2100, 2800 Hz}   Probably at levels in 
excess of the FCC regulation on signal purity.   Not to mention 
upsetting your band neighbors around your frequency.


The earlier references I made to using FLDIGI and a Signalink USB 
interface, FLDIGI does generate CW audio.  It is this audio signal 
which  activates the relay in the Signalink USB, thus it is a relay 
which is performing the function of keying the radio in CW mode.  No 
different than a straight key.  In this case, the radio MUST be in the 
CW mode, the Signalink USB Delay set fully counter clockwise to 
minimum.  Even then, the speed of the associated circuits and the relay 
close and open time will limit CW speed to less than 20 WPM or so.


Other software applications may behave differently when connected direct 
to the radio or via an interface device.   No one rule stands for all 
configurations.


73

Bob, K4TAX



On 7/3/2017 3:00 PM, Fred Moore wrote:

Ted, it's not a great strategy any time, and yes most likely that is
what was going on.  You should see their signal when they have RF on the
audio or a hum.  Not exactly meets the FCC requirements.  If you are
listening with a wide filter some times you even get to hear their
Microsoft Windows generated tones if they forget to turn them off.

Let the flood gates start with all of the "you can't tell the difference
so it's ok"  But I can and have seen it many times with bad signals..

It's not CW keying, its USB or LSB keying with a single tone.   It makes
me crazy when someone calls it CW keying, no way it is

Fred

Fred Moore
email: f...@fmeco.com
wd8...@gmail.com




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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Ryan Noguchi via Elecraft]

>Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my 
>frequency.  It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the 
>time...>Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which 
>resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) 
>Hz?


Yes, I think I experienced this last weekend. I answered a CQ on 6M SSB, then 
we agreed to switch to CW on the same frequency. When I switched to CW mode on 
my KX3, no one was there, but I saw a faint narrow signal appear off to the 
side on the PX3. After several seconds of waiting and debating, I had a hunch 
that was my op, so I QSYed to that frequency and found him, and we completed 
the QSO on that frequency. His filter sandwich must have been pretty wide for 
him to copy me, so he was probably still in SSB mode. 

Detecting off-frequency callers outside my narrow filter passband is yet 
another reason why I find the PX3 indispensible.

73, Ryan AI6DO
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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Using audio tones in LSB or USB mode for CW is risky business. Any 
amount of over drive or excessive audio anywhere in the system, 
computer, software, radio and such WILL cause problems. Same for hum or 
distortion of the audio, specially if impacted by a wee bit of RF in the 
audio.


I don't advise using this method unless one is very sure they have the 
system optimized for most any digital mode.  The K3S is ideal in as much 
as one can use DATA A mode and not be concerned with the LSB or USB 
offset.  Plus a single cable between the radio and computer is all that 
is required to be successful for CW or the DATA modes.


If your software provides CW via the KY CMD, as in HRD/DM780, this is 
direct CW and is handled in the CW mode by the K3S. Sweet!


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 7/2/2017 9:32 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

I wonder if this explains something I ran into during FD.  On several occasions 
– usually late at night – I was able to do some running, all on CW.  Five or 
six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency.  
It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time.  They 
were outside the passband and I heard them only when, after a CQ, I tuned the 
RIT widely on either side.  I wondered why that would be happening.  I 
certainly wasn’t the target of a pileup.  One possibility I thought of was that 
those callers had forgotten to cancel split after the last time they intended 
to use it.  But this thread about audio tones keying CW on SSB suggests 
another.  Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which 
resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) 
Hz?  If so, it seems like it wouldn’t be a great strategy during a contest on a 
crowded band.

Ted, KN1CBR
 
 




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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Don Wilhelm]

All,

That may be true for CW sent by FLDIGI or another data mode application 
- it simply feeds a (hopefully) single tone to the SSB generator.


The K3 CW in SSB mode is different because it is real keyed CW from the 
paddles of keying input.  Yes, the carrier is shifted by the sidetone 
pitch so a station listening in SSB mode will hear the tone.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/3/2017 4:00 PM, Fred Moore wrote:

Ted, it's not a great strategy any time, and yes most likely that is
what was going on.  You should see their signal when they have RF on the
audio or a hum.  Not exactly meets the FCC requirements.  If you are
listening with a wide filter some times you even get to hear their
Microsoft Windows generated tones if they forget to turn them off.


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Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Fred Moore]

Ted, it's not a great strategy any time, and yes most likely that is
what was going on.  You should see their signal when they have RF on the
audio or a hum.  Not exactly meets the FCC requirements.  If you are
listening with a wide filter some times you even get to hear their
Microsoft Windows generated tones if they forget to turn them off. 

Let the flood gates start with all of the "you can't tell the difference
so it's ok"  But I can and have seen it many times with bad signals..

It's not CW keying, its USB or LSB keying with a single tone.   It makes
me crazy when someone calls it CW keying, no way it is

Fred

Fred Moore
email: f...@fmeco.com
   wd8...@gmail.com
phone: 321-217-8699

On 7/2/17 10:32 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> I wonder if this explains something I ran into during FD.  On several 
> occasions – usually late at night – I was able to do some running, all on CW. 
>  Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my 
> frequency.  It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the 
> time.  They were outside the passband and I heard them only when, after a CQ, 
> I tuned the RIT widely on either side.  I wondered why that would be 
> happening.  I certainly wasn’t the target of a pileup.  One possibility I 
> thought of was that those callers had forgotten to cancel split after the 
> last time they intended to use it.  But this thread about audio tones keying 
> CW on SSB suggests another.  Is it possible that they were using CW keying on 
> USB or LSB which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as 
> Don suggests, 1200) Hz?  If so, it seems like it wouldn’t be a great strategy 
> during a contest on a crowded band.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
> 
>


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[Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

[Dauer, Edward]

I wonder if this explains something I ran into during FD.  On several occasions 
– usually late at night – I was able to do some running, all on CW.  Five or 
six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency.  
It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time.  They 
were outside the passband and I heard them only when, after a CQ, I tuned the 
RIT widely on either side.  I wondered why that would be happening.  I 
certainly wasn’t the target of a pileup.  One possibility I thought of was that 
those callers had forgotten to cancel split after the last time they intended 
to use it.  But this thread about audio tones keying CW on SSB suggests 
another.  Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which 
resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) 
Hz?  If so, it seems like it wouldn’t be a great strategy during a contest on a 
crowded band.

Ted, KN1CBR


--

Message: 22
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 00:20:39 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm 
To: Terry Brown , elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fldigi and signallink question interfaced to
KX3
Message-ID: <181f3ee7-f8be-56dc-46f1-14482198b...@embarqmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

sorry about the blank response.  It is late here and the fingers do not 
work well.

Fldigi uses audio tones for keying, and you need to be in SSB mode 
(typically USB or DATA A) to transmit on the proper frequency - CW 
included - but I would expect twice the sidetone pitch.
Use DATA A mode when trying to send CW via the Fldigi CW mode.

CW is "just another digital mode" although one that can be decoded by 
the human brain for those who know morse.  It uses audio tones to send 
CW, do the carrier frequency USB frequency will be the transmit 
frequency plus the frequency for the sidetone in Fldigi.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/29/2017 11:26 PM, Terry Brown wrote:
> I have a KX3 connected to a Signalink and Fldigi.  It seems to work fine 
for
> all the digital modes.  I can use it to decode CW, but have never sent CW.
> I clicked on the CQ button and all that happened was that my transmitter
> went into transmit mode, but nothing was transmitted.  If I  put the KX3 
in
> LSB it would transmit cw fine, but was always off frequency by the amount 
of
> my sidetone.

 


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