Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
It really depends on how badly you want the contact it your getting very close to Honor Roll and so is your age, use all that you have. I work QRP and QRO both enjoy both equally. 73, Fred/N0AZZ K3 Ser #'s 6730/5299--KX3 # 2573--K2/100--KAT100 P3/SVGA--KPA500--KAT500--W2 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of EricJ Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 1:56 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal In fact, the whole concept is codified in FCC Part 97 § 97.313 Transmitter power standards. (a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications. Sometimes that's 500mw, sometimes it's a lot more. Ultimately, the objective of this hobby is communication. If you can communicate at only 500 mw, do so; in fact, the law requires it. If you need 500 watts, you should do so. Not to means you fail at the most basic objective of the hobby. 90% of the time I'm CW QRP. The rest of the time I have my K2/10 (SN 567) cranked to the 15 watt max. Eric KE6US K1/KX1/K2 On 3/23/2013 8:42 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: > Dave, > Nice work! > We did this empirically about 30 years ago. Convinced a bunch of us > that 1db is worth fighting for. As you show it is how you compare > against someone else who is also calling at the same time. 2-3 db > increase is almost like a capture effect to our ears as on FM. In > addition if you are at the noise level of the receiving station it may > not take much power increase to make the difference whether or not you are heard. > You don't always need 100W or 1500W, but it is nice to have it there > if you need it. > > Which reminds me, I haven't asked Elecraft for quite some time, where > is my 160-6M KPA1500? :-) > > 73, > N2TK, Tony > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:03 PM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will > Do For Your Signal > > > That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An > amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the > other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a > five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a > significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and > of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy > and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. > > http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html > > Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the > reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more > cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a > tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area > where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then > there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will >> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 >> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the >> beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW >> mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns >> sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. >> You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less >> clearly from half way > around the world when the band is open. >> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. >> >> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission >> sequence is >> at: >> >> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html >> >> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. >> >> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the >> advantage of having one in perspective. >> >> 73, Ron AC7AC >> >> >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this >> email >> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
In fact, the whole concept is codified in FCC Part 97 § 97.313 Transmitter power standards. (a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications. Sometimes that's 500mw, sometimes it's a lot more. Ultimately, the objective of this hobby is communication. If you can communicate at only 500 mw, do so; in fact, the law requires it. If you need 500 watts, you should do so. Not to means you fail at the most basic objective of the hobby. 90% of the time I'm CW QRP. The rest of the time I have my K2/10 (SN 567) cranked to the 15 watt max. Eric KE6US K1/KX1/K2 On 3/23/2013 8:42 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Dave, Nice work! We did this empirically about 30 years ago. Convinced a bunch of us that 1db is worth fighting for. As you show it is how you compare against someone else who is also calling at the same time. 2-3 db increase is almost like a capture effect to our ears as on FM. In addition if you are at the noise level of the receiving station it may not take much power increase to make the difference whether or not you are heard. You don't always need 100W or 1500W, but it is nice to have it there if you need it. Which reminds me, I haven't asked Elecraft for quite some time, where is my 160-6M KPA1500? :-) 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:03 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the advantage of having one in perspective. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
The beacons are on CW. They are spread around the world (http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconlocations.html) and unless circumstances are highly unusual you should hear at least one of them. You do need to listen long enough to get through the complete rotation (three minutes) Wes N7WS. --- On Sat, 3/23/13, gold...@charter.net wrote: All this beacon talk has forced me to check out 14.1 and there is nothing to be heard at my qth with several antennas. So I am wondering what mode one needs to listen with. I was assuming CW but I can not hear a signal on USB or LSB on that dial frequency. I know the band is not so great today but I can get other digital modes work and with no problem at all. Don ~73 Don KD8NNU FH#4107 -.- -.. ---.. –. –. ..- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
I can agree with all of that Ron, and in fact it may surprise many that I really enjoy working QRP myself. I have a K3 and a KW amp but I hang on to both my K1 and my old TS-130V for exactly those reasons. 73, Dave AB7E On 3/23/2013 8:27 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: No argument Dave. You wrote, "If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup,.." Of course that's a different situation from listening to a signal on a clear frequency. That's why I don't join pileups calling DX and you'll find me on the WARC bands during contests. And I know a lot of other Hams who operate just as I do, transmitting only on clear frequencies. Our sort of operation eliminates the need to have a big signal that can be copied through someone else's big signal. The beacons demonstrate just how little power is necessary to work the world on a clear frequency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 11:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter how good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you even if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP. The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path, where as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no copy. Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ... the noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the noise level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can hear you. More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each day ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't cut it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean that you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts. My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do newcomers many favors. Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit over one S-unit. I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC awards. I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and decide whether the power difference is all that important. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the advantage of having one in perspective. 73, Ron AC7AC
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Which has exactly been my point all along. Ham radio is situational ... sometimes an amp is a waste of money and coal, and other times it is a necessity. What you experience listening to beacons may be the same as what you find chasing a random contact on a clear band, but it is not the same as what you experience in a pileup, or in a contest, or when the guy on the other end has a lot of noise. 73, Dave AB7E On 3/23/2013 7:56 AM, Vic, K2VCO wrote: The truth is, it depends on what you are trying to do with your radio. If you are a DXer, especially on 160/80 meters, then even 1 dB may be the difference between getting a QSO and getting a "?" from a DX station. If your operating style is to contact stations when signals are relatively good, then who cares if you are S7 or S9? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Dave, Nice work! We did this empirically about 30 years ago. Convinced a bunch of us that 1db is worth fighting for. As you show it is how you compare against someone else who is also calling at the same time. 2-3 db increase is almost like a capture effect to our ears as on FM. In addition if you are at the noise level of the receiving station it may not take much power increase to make the difference whether or not you are heard. You don't always need 100W or 1500W, but it is nice to have it there if you need it. Which reminds me, I haven't asked Elecraft for quite some time, where is my 160-6M KPA1500? :-) 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:03 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will > demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 > watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon > frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and > listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call > signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be > amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. > > When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. > > A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission > sequence is > at: > > http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html > > IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. > > I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the > advantage of having one in perspective. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
All this beacon talk has forced me to check out 14.1 and there is nothing to be heard at my qth with several antennas. So I am wondering what mode one needs to listen with. I was assuming CW but I can not hear a signal on USB or LSB on that dial frequency. I know the band is not so great today but I can get other digital modes work and with no problem at all. Don ~73 Don KD8NNU FH#4107 -.- -.. ---.. –. –. ..- On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: No argument Dave. You wrote, "If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup,.." Of course that's a different situation from listening to a signal on a clear frequency. That's why I don't join pileups calling DX and you'll find me on the WARC bands during contests. And I know a lot of other Hams who operate just as I do, transmitting only on clear frequencies. Our sort of operation eliminates the need to have a big signal that can be copied through someone else's big signal. The beacons demonstrate just how little power is necessary to work the world on a clear frequency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 11:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter how good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you even if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP. The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path, where as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no copy. Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ... the noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the noise level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can hear you. More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each day ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't cut it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean that you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts. My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do newcomers many favors. Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit over one S-unit. I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC awards. I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and decide whether the power difference is all that important. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at:
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
No argument Dave. You wrote, "If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup,.." Of course that's a different situation from listening to a signal on a clear frequency. That's why I don't join pileups calling DX and you'll find me on the WARC bands during contests. And I know a lot of other Hams who operate just as I do, transmitting only on clear frequencies. Our sort of operation eliminates the need to have a big signal that can be copied through someone else's big signal. The beacons demonstrate just how little power is necessary to work the world on a clear frequency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 11:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter how good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you even if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP. The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path, where as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no copy. Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ... the noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the noise level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can hear you. More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each day ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't cut it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean that you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts. My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do newcomers many favors. Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 > watts or > 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a > bit over one S-unit. > > I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that > extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. > Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals > with DXCC awards. > > I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves > and decide whether the power difference is all that important. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > > > -Original Message- > That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An > amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the > other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a > five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a > significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and > of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy > and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. > > http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html > > Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the > reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more > cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a > tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area > where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then > there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). > > Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will >> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 >> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the >> beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW >> mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns >> sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. >> You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less >> clearly from half way > around the world when the band is open. >> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. >> >> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission >> sequence is >> at: >> >> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html >> >> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. >> >> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but thi
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Funny -- one guy says "get an amp, it's 10 dB!" Another says, "don't bother, it's only 10 dB." The truth is, it depends on what you are trying to do with your radio. If you are a DXer, especially on 160/80 meters, then even 1 dB may be the difference between getting a QSO and getting a "?" from a DX station. If your operating style is to contact stations when signals are relatively good, then who cares if you are S7 or S9? On 3/22/13 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit over one S-unit. I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC awards. I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and decide whether the power difference is all that important. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the advantage of having one in perspective. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
I ran my K3/10 (12w max) for about a year without an amplifier and had good success getting out on SSB (CW is way easier so probably an amplifier is less needed). I have checked into the Elecraft SSB Net several times with 12w using either the K3/10 or the KX3, barefoot. I do use a Hygain TH3mk4 3-element yagi at 50-feet on 20m so that provides about 6-8 dB gain. It seems there is a good path between me and NS7P, and Phil hears pretty good with his setup. I have operated on 80m SSB on nets here in AK and had good luck running only 12w on an inverted-V. But if conditions are not particularly good, running 270w on 20m does help (13.5 dB or little over 2 s-units increase). On the whole, 100w seems a good level since so many HF rigs run that and get out OK. I suspect the new Elecraft KXPA100 will be very popular. Of course during DX pileups or contests having a big signal really makes it. For instance, I run 125w with a 6-element yagi on 6m and makes working an opening much easier when folks can hear me well (I'm the "DX"). When I finish the 1100w 6m PA I expect that will make things possible without openings (using eme or ms, that is). 73, Ed - KL7UW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Yes, Dave, it is exactly what I experienced. Sent from my iPhone 4 David Gilbert 於 2013年3月23日 下午2:42 寫道： > > I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often > enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a > contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter how > good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you even if > you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP. > > The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path, where > as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no copy. > Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ... the > noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the noise > level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can hear > you. > > More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each day > ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't cut it. > And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean that you > can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts. > > My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do > newcomers many favors. > > Dave AB7E > > > > > On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or >> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit >> over one S-unit. >> >> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra >> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. >> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC >> awards. >> >> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and >> decide whether the power difference is all that important. >> >> 73, Ron AC7AC >> >> >> -Original Message- >> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier >> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's >> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As >> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing >> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the >> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the >> noise level. >> >> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html >> >> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality >> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective >> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna >> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of >> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops >> that make possible alternatives). >> >> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will >>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 >>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon >>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and >>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call >>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be >>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half >>> way >> around the world when the band is open. >>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. >>> >>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission >>> sequence is >>> at: >>> >>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html >>> >>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. >>> >>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the >>> advantage of having one in perspective. >>> >>> 73, Ron AC7AC >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: h
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter how good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you even if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP. The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path, where as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no copy. Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ... the noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the noise level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can hear you. More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each day ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't cut it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean that you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts. My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do newcomers many favors. Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit over one S-unit. I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC awards. I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and decide whether the power difference is all that important. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the advantage of having one in perspective. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Excellent point that you make Phil. If one can hear the 100 watt level, one can usually hear the much lower levels as well. That's a good demonstration that when the path is open, it is open and when it is not, it is not, Hi! >From my QTH on the Oregon coast I can usually hear those beacons on my 2 wave inverted L on 20 meters - my favorite band as well. When some of the others pop up with good signals I perk up Hi!! 73 Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:12 PM To: Bob K6UJ Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal On a good day from my Kirkland, Washington QTH, I can hear three stations on the 14.1 MHz beacon. That would be 4U1UN, W6WX (always the loudest), and KH6WQ (usually the weakest because it is often off the back of my hex-beam). But, when I can hear any of these stations, I almost always hear all three signal levels and I am pretty sure that if this were a regular QSO that I could copy (at least CW) all three signal levels. I believe in these begins and the 14.1 MHz beacon is my "home plate" spot for my K3 when I am busy doing other things. So, I get this nice background reminder about how propagation is going and so on -- at least for 20 meters. I have listened to some of the other bands but I favor listening to this 20 meter beacon. 73, phil, K7PEH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
On a good day from my Kirkland, Washington QTH, I can hear three stations on the 14.1 MHz beacon. That would be 4U1UN, W6WX (always the loudest), and KH6WQ (usually the weakest because it is often off the back of my hex-beam). But, when I can hear any of these stations, I almost always hear all three signal levels and I am pretty sure that if this were a regular QSO that I could copy (at least CW) all three signal levels. I believe in these begins and the 14.1 MHz beacon is my "home plate" spot for my K3 when I am busy doing other things. So, I get this nice background reminder about how propagation is going and so on -- at least for 20 meters. I have listened to some of the other bands but I favor listening to this 20 meter beacon. 73, phil, K7PEH On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Bob K6UJ wrote: > Ron, > > I agree 100% Ron. I am elmering new hams and use the beacons as a > good tool to explain the difference in signal strength with increase of power > and relation to db's. Cant think of a better way to demonstrate. > It gives credence to our explaining that they need to focus on the antenna > system first, not an amp. > > Bob > K6UJ > > > > On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > >> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or >> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit >> over one S-unit. >> >> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra >> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. >> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC >> awards. >> >> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and >> decide whether the power difference is all that important. >> >> 73, Ron AC7AC >> >> >> -Original Message- >> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier >> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's >> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As >> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing >> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the >> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the >> noise level. >> >> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html >> >> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality >> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective >> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna >> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of >> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops >> that make possible alternatives). >> >> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will >>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 >>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon >>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and >>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call >>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be >>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half >>> way >> around the world when the band is open. >>> >>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. >>> >>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission >>> sequence is >>> at: >>> >>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html >>> >>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. >>> >>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the >>> advantage of having one in perspective. >>> >>> 73, Ron AC7AC >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ___
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Ron, I agree 100% Ron. I am elmering new hams and use the beacons as a good tool to explain the difference in signal strength with increase of power and relation to db's. Cant think of a better way to demonstrate. It gives credence to our explaining that they need to focus on the antenna system first, not an amp. Bob K6UJ On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or > 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit > over one S-unit. > > I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra > power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. > Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC > awards. > > I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and > decide whether the power difference is all that important. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > > > -Original Message- > That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier > will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's > more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As > little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing > against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the > difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the > noise level. > > http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html > > Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality > is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective > way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna > ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of > discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops > that make possible alternatives). > > Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: >> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will >> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 >> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon >> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and >> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call >> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be >> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half >> way > around the world when the band is open. >> >> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. >> >> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission >> sequence is >> at: >> >> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html >> >> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. >> >> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the >> advantage of having one in perspective. >> >> 73, Ron AC7AC > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit over one S-unit. I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes. Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC awards. I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and decide whether the power difference is all that important. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will > demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 > watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon > frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and > listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call > signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be > amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half > way around the world when the band is open. > > When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. > > A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission > sequence is > at: > > http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html > > IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. > > I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the > advantage of having one in perspective. > > 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
Dave, Well stated. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will > demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 > watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon > frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and > listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call > signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be > amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. > > When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. > > A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission > sequence is > at: > > http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html > > IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. > > I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the > advantage of having one in perspective. > > 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level. http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives). Dave AB7E On 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the advantage of having one in perspective. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
I have been preaching the rule of power and decibels gain for years - this is a real-life example. I personally use my amp (single 3-500) very little these days - which is why I have not bought the new Elecraft amp. 100 Watts fills the bill for me 99% of the time. As I do not contest or DX, that remaining 1% is of little importance. Of course, some will argue the point - which is fine. We each have our own personal methods of operating. Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal
For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open. When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through. A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna. I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the advantage of having one in perspective. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
