Re: [Elecraft] Generic words on temperature
In years past, we had a spec where 60C was the the hottest temp allowable on any exposed accessible surface. On a metal surface with high thermal conductivity and significant thermal mass (e.g. aluminum heat sink), it feels very warm to the touch, only starts to cause pain after many seconds, and causes pain long before causing injury. That spec might be codified in some safety standards somewhere. A piece of wood or plastic at 60C just feel warm. Heat and temperature are very different. They have different dimensions and units. Lou W7HV On Sunday, July 4, 2021, 4:47:36 PM MDT, Francis Belliveau wrote: All, I am taking this off-list since it is so far off topic. What I said seems to have been somewhat misinterpreted. 1. "Threshold of pain" means it starts to hurt, not "I can't stand it any more". 2. The surface temperature of a child's forehead when running a fever of 106 degrees is less than 100 degrees. The 106 is an internal temperature. 3. This is a "rule of thumb", not an absolute. Run the experiment yourself: * Come up with a way to measure the temperature of a hot surface. Maybe an over window could be used, but you need to measure the surface temperature. Using a forehead thermometer will not work since it has bee calibrated to read internal temperature based on the cooler external temperature. * Heat the surface to 99 degrees and see how it feels. * Then try it again at 100 or 101 degrees. Yes, individuals can handle much hotter temperatures. I once saw somebody reach into a hot fish-frier and come out unburned; but he had been working in the frying industry for years and had built up the ability to to that. This "rule of thumb" is based on a "normal average". 73, Fran > On Jul 3, 2021, at 19:52, David Woolley wrote: > > 100°F is well within the survivable body core temperature range, so it should > never trigger pain receptors. > > In fact, I believe it was defined based on the nominal core body temperature > of a cow. > > Did you mean 100°C? > > -- > David Woolley > > > On 04/07/2021 00:03, Francis Belliveau wrote: >> Another rule of thumb for those who care. >> When you hold a finger on something and it is 10 seconds to pain threshold, >> that location is about 100 degrees F. >> This is not an absolute constant, but I have checked it a few times since I >> was told that, and it seems to be true for me. > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to f.belliv...@comcast.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to louand...@yahoo.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Generic words on temperature
All, I am taking this off-list since it is so far off topic. What I said seems to have been somewhat misinterpreted. 1. "Threshold of pain" means it starts to hurt, not "I can't stand it any more". 2. The surface temperature of a child's forehead when running a fever of 106 degrees is less than 100 degrees. The 106 is an internal temperature. 3. This is a "rule of thumb", not an absolute. Run the experiment yourself: * Come up with a way to measure the temperature of a hot surface. Maybe an over window could be used, but you need to measure the surface temperature. Using a forehead thermometer will not work since it has bee calibrated to read internal temperature based on the cooler external temperature. * Heat the surface to 99 degrees and see how it feels. * Then try it again at 100 or 101 degrees. Yes, individuals can handle much hotter temperatures. I once saw somebody reach into a hot fish-frier and come out unburned; but he had been working in the frying industry for years and had built up the ability to to that. This "rule of thumb" is based on a "normal average". 73, Fran > On Jul 3, 2021, at 19:52, David Woolley wrote: > > 100°F is well within the survivable body core temperature range, so it should > never trigger pain receptors. > > In fact, I believe it was defined based on the nominal core body temperature > of a cow. > > Did you mean 100°C? > > -- > David Woolley > > > On 04/07/2021 00:03, Francis Belliveau wrote: >> Another rule of thumb for those who care. >> When you hold a finger on something and it is 10 seconds to pain threshold, >> that location is about 100 degrees F. >> This is not an absolute constant, but I have checked it a few times since I >> was told that, and it seems to be true for me. > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to f.belliv...@comcast.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Generic words on temperature
Ahh, well, a few comments clarifications, from a guy with 38 years of experience (HVAC/mechanical and controls engineering) with Carrier air conditioning. Opening comment (not really my area of expertise, but I do have moderate relevant experience), the heat pain threshold is quite variable (between individuals, and depending on time of day and LOTS of other factors), and the touch test is probably not a reliable predictor of whether the radio is "too hot". My perception is that the Elecraft radios are thermally well protected, but if really concerned, I think measuring temp with an IR sensor and comparing it against published limits might be a preferred approach to assessing it. As to atmospheric pressure and altitude, these are really separate variables. While there is a functional relationship between them, it's not so strong that for most normal activities (i.e. unless the plan is to climb K2, Everest or similar) it shouldn't be a significant factor in the discussion. And FWIW, temp generally decreases with increasing altitude, which then of course lessens an overheating problem by increasing the heat transfer driving delta-T. As to whether it's better to install fans in a blow-thru or a draw-thru configuration, there's no clear winner for this type of electronics cooling application. If condensation was an issue (it's not), the distinction between these might become significant. Given that, the decision between these would generally be based on the mechanical layout and on related testing meant to insure that specific components remain sufficiently cool in worst case conditions. (BTW, no way one could hold his finger on a smooth 100C surface for 10 seconds, and no way that same surface at 100F would rise above the heat pain threshold in 10 sec.) Chris Jones - K2CZ On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:37 PM Geoffrey Feldman wrote: > My rule of thumb is that if you can keep your finger on it for a second or > so without pain, it's not too hot. > > > > The ambient temperature is really not the issue as much as whether heat is > carried off. I know it's hot in the pacific northwest but I think you can > still enjoy your gear. The larger issue is RFI from air conditioners. > > > > The environmental consideration many people neglect is atmospheric > pressure. > As altitude increases, there is less air to carry the heat away. People > sometimes install fans with an idea to sucking out the heat. This is > actually wrong. The fan should blow ambient air in and the venting for it > to > get out should intend that pressure inside the case be a bit higher than > the > ambient pressure. More molecules against the hot part, the better. If you > read the fine print on electronic specifications you will often (and should > always) see an atmospheric spec with the heat spec. > > > > All the above is just rule-of-thumb of course. There is a lot more to > cooling electronics than the above but I think these are worth considering. > > > > Elecraft gear is pretty good at protecting itself as well. If your radio > cuts out, it's doing its job of living for more fun later. > > > > W1GCF > > Geoff > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to cajo...@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Generic words on temperature
100°F is well within the survivable body core temperature range, so it should never trigger pain receptors. In fact, I believe it was defined based on the nominal core body temperature of a cow. Did you mean 100°C? -- David Woolley On 04/07/2021 00:03, Francis Belliveau wrote: Another rule of thumb for those who care. When you hold a finger on something and it is 10 seconds to pain threshold, that location is about 100 degrees F. This is not an absolute constant, but I have checked it a few times since I was told that, and it seems to be true for me. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Generic words on temperature
Another rule of thumb for those who care. When you hold a finger on something and it is 10 seconds to pain threshold, that location is about 100 degrees F. This is not an absolute constant, but I have checked it a few times since I was told that, and it seems to be true for me. > On Jun 30, 2021, at 21:36, Geoffrey Feldman wrote: > > My rule of thumb is that if you can keep your finger on it for a second or > so without pain, it's not too hot. > > > > The ambient temperature is really not the issue as much as whether heat is > carried off. I know it's hot in the pacific northwest but I think you can > still enjoy your gear. The larger issue is RFI from air conditioners. > > > > The environmental consideration many people neglect is atmospheric pressure. > As altitude increases, there is less air to carry the heat away. People > sometimes install fans with an idea to sucking out the heat. This is > actually wrong. The fan should blow ambient air in and the venting for it to > get out should intend that pressure inside the case be a bit higher than the > ambient pressure. More molecules against the hot part, the better. If you > read the fine print on electronic specifications you will often (and should > always) see an atmospheric spec with the heat spec. > > > > All the above is just rule-of-thumb of course. There is a lot more to > cooling electronics than the above but I think these are worth considering. > > > > Elecraft gear is pretty good at protecting itself as well. If your radio > cuts out, it's doing its job of living for more fun later. > > > > W1GCF > > Geoff > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to f.belliv...@comcast.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Generic words on temperature
My rule of thumb is that if you can keep your finger on it for a second or so without pain, it's not too hot. The ambient temperature is really not the issue as much as whether heat is carried off. I know it's hot in the pacific northwest but I think you can still enjoy your gear. The larger issue is RFI from air conditioners. The environmental consideration many people neglect is atmospheric pressure. As altitude increases, there is less air to carry the heat away. People sometimes install fans with an idea to sucking out the heat. This is actually wrong. The fan should blow ambient air in and the venting for it to get out should intend that pressure inside the case be a bit higher than the ambient pressure. More molecules against the hot part, the better. If you read the fine print on electronic specifications you will often (and should always) see an atmospheric spec with the heat spec. All the above is just rule-of-thumb of course. There is a lot more to cooling electronics than the above but I think these are worth considering. Elecraft gear is pretty good at protecting itself as well. If your radio cuts out, it's doing its job of living for more fun later. W1GCF Geoff __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
It appears some members would excuse an obvious mistake, because they concur with what they believe is intended to be a compliment. But how do we know for sure what the writer intended to convey? After all, his words are, in fact, a slur. Words, in general, often often have very specific meanings, as do many technical words in engineering and scientific prose. For some professions, e.g., novelists, lawyers, and advocates of all stripes, words are the very tools of the trade. On this reflector, members frequently criticize others for misusing technical words when speaking about radios, yet they would excuse a serious error in other contexts, because they agree with the presumed sentiment. Kudos to the critic who gently, and politely asked whether the writer truly intended the opposite of what he likely intended to say. Shame on those who would misuse some words, while admonishing the misuse of technical words. You can rationalize as you like - fact is, the original post is a slur, and we should not criticize the critic - who is, in fact, correct ! Just MY take. K8JHR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Of Words and such
When I first moved to northern Florida in the late 60/s I did a double take when someone riding with me asked if they could crack my window.Don, W4CBS Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note9. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
Phil, You nitpicker you! :) Was good to see you in PDX last week! 73s and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Technical Specialist ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resource On 4/26/19 11:22 AM, Phil Kane wrote: On 4/26/2019 11:01 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Wayne was right, I meant that Eric had gone way beyond what was expected, in a good way. My understanding of the phrase was it meant beyond bad things and into the good. Sorry if you saw it otherwise. Guess I better watch out for the wordsmiths. Or worse, wordsmith wannabees, like me :) But but but as I pound into the engineers working for me - be very careful with the stuff that you commit to reports and papers - we may be held to exactly that in the case of disputes. Color me nitpicker :)-- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 VP - General Counsel & Engineering Manager CSI Telecommunications, Inc. - Consulting Engineers San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
Now that is funny! 73s and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Technical Specialist ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resource On 4/26/19 3:08 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: It especially depends on what part of the world you're in... Years ago Mmy wife Phyllis and I spent a weekend visiting Al G3FXB and his XYL Maud. I'll never forget Phyllis' astonishment when, after a long night of enjoyable conversation and when she was ready for bed, Al asked: When would you like me to knock you up tomorrow? 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Don Wilhelm" To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 9:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such It likely depends on which area of the US you are in. I don't know about the current vernacular, but where I grew up in Central Eastern Ohio in the 1950s and 1960s, cigarettes were known as "fags", and a 'fag break' would be a perfectly acceptable expression. I once heard a broadcast from KDKA in Pittsburg, PA where several language expressions that were unique to that area were cited. The one that sticks in my mind is "chuckle" referring to a pothole in the road. A lot depends on the context. I remember my Grandmother referring to "Go dowm celler to do the wershing" on Mondays. Even within the USA, there is a wide variety of local expressions like that. When I first moved to NC, I did a 2nd take the first time I heard someone say they had to "carry their Mother to the doctor"! 73, Don W3FPR On 4/26/2019 4:53 PM, Andy McMullin via Elecraft wrote: You are so right. So many people seem to guess what words or phrases mean without bothering to determine what the rest of society agrees that they mean. Then they expect you to understand their personal interpretation. However, I’d add that it’s also useful to remember George Bernard Shaw and his “two countries divided by a common language”. Try suggesting a “fag break” to workers in the USA (as I did one coffee time in the 1970’s). __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
I think that's incorrect...but little appreciated. https://writingexplained.org/biannual-vs-semiannual-difference [https://writingexplained.org/wp-content/uploads/biannual-versus-semiannual-meaning.png]<https://writingexplained.org/biannual-vs-semiannual-difference> Biannual vs. Semiannual – What’s the Difference? - Writing Explained - Grammar, Style, and Usage - Writing Explained<https://writingexplained.org/biannual-vs-semiannual-difference> When to Use Biennial. What does biennial mean? A third adjective, biennial, describes something that occurs every other year.This term is often confused with biannual due to their similarity in spelling.. Here are some examples of biennial in a sentence,. The San Francisco Giants had to forgo their biennial trip to the World Series in 2016. writingexplained.org Chuck Hawley c-haw...@illinois.edu Amateur Radio, KE9UW From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on behalf of Kevin Cozens Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 3:46 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such On 2019-04-26 1:29 p.m., Wayne Burdick wrote: > Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like > "semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or > "every other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you > often see the other shown as a synonym. The problem is due to people using words without understanding heir meaning. There should be no confusion between semiannual and biannual. semi means half, and bi is two. If you want to really find out how messed up is the English language and the definitions of words, start solving cryptic crossword puzzles. Some words have three completely different sets of meanings. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include | --Chris Hardwick __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Of words and such
My favorite from the southern US is "fixing": as in 'I'm fixing to leave'= getting ready to go. One of the premier wordsmiths, Winston Churchill is spinning in his grave. Good yucks, 73 Tom HP1XT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
It especially depends on what part of the world you're in... Years ago Mmy wife Phyllis and I spent a weekend visiting Al G3FXB and his XYL Maud. I'll never forget Phyllis' astonishment when, after a long night of enjoyable conversation and when she was ready for bed, Al asked: When would you like me to knock you up tomorrow? 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Don Wilhelm" To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 9:25:44 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such It likely depends on which area of the US you are in. I don't know about the current vernacular, but where I grew up in Central Eastern Ohio in the 1950s and 1960s, cigarettes were known as "fags", and a 'fag break' would be a perfectly acceptable expression. I once heard a broadcast from KDKA in Pittsburg, PA where several language expressions that were unique to that area were cited. The one that sticks in my mind is "chuckle" referring to a pothole in the road. A lot depends on the context. I remember my Grandmother referring to "Go dowm celler to do the wershing" on Mondays. Even within the USA, there is a wide variety of local expressions like that. When I first moved to NC, I did a 2nd take the first time I heard someone say they had to "carry their Mother to the doctor"! 73, Don W3FPR On 4/26/2019 4:53 PM, Andy McMullin via Elecraft wrote: > You are so right. So many people seem to guess what words or phrases mean > without bothering to determine what the rest of society agrees that they > mean. Then they expect you to understand their personal interpretation. > > However, I’d add that it’s also useful to remember George Bernard Shaw and > his “two countries divided by a common language”. Try suggesting a “fag > break” to workers in the USA (as I did one coffee time in the 1970’s). > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
It likely depends on which area of the US you are in. I don't know about the current vernacular, but where I grew up in Central Eastern Ohio in the 1950s and 1960s, cigarettes were known as "fags", and a 'fag break' would be a perfectly acceptable expression. I once heard a broadcast from KDKA in Pittsburg, PA where several language expressions that were unique to that area were cited. The one that sticks in my mind is "chuckle" referring to a pothole in the road. A lot depends on the context. I remember my Grandmother referring to "Go dowm celler to do the wershing" on Mondays. Even within the USA, there is a wide variety of local expressions like that. When I first moved to NC, I did a 2nd take the first time I heard someone say they had to "carry their Mother to the doctor"! 73, Don W3FPR On 4/26/2019 4:53 PM, Andy McMullin via Elecraft wrote: You are so right. So many people seem to guess what words or phrases mean without bothering to determine what the rest of society agrees that they mean. Then they expect you to understand their personal interpretation. However, I’d add that it’s also useful to remember George Bernard Shaw and his “two countries divided by a common language”. Try suggesting a “fag break” to workers in the USA (as I did one coffee time in the 1970’s). __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Of Words and Such - Even though Beyond the OT Pale
It's from an earlier meaning of the word pale, which meant a specific region or
area within a defined boundary. Hence the denotation of beyond the pale is
"outside the boundary." Another current use of the word's earlier meaning is
the phrase "The Pale of Settlement," which meant and to historians still means
a bounded region in Russia into which Russian Jews were herded and allowed to
live, more or less, during the generation before the first World War.
I agree with Wayne that today the connotation is usually negative; and I also
understood the user to mean it literally and so not negatively at all.
Ted, KN1CBR
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 10:29:49 -0700
From: Wayne Burdick
To: Frank Krozel
Cc: Elecraft Reflector , Andy Durbin
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
"Beyond the pale" is an infrequently used idiomatic expression (at least in
the U.S.), probably misunderstood by many. I believe it is used in a negative
sense for the most part, but clearly that isn't what the writer meant.
Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like
"semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or "every
other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you often see the
other shown as a synonym.
Wayne
N6KR
__
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Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
You are so right. So many people seem to guess what words or phrases mean without bothering to determine what the rest of society agrees that they mean. Then they expect you to understand their personal interpretation. However, I’d add that it’s also useful to remember George Bernard Shaw and his “two countries divided by a common language”. Try suggesting a “fag break” to workers in the USA (as I did one coffee time in the 1970’s). Sent from my iPhone > On 26 Apr 2019, at 21:46, Kevin Cozens wrote: > >> On 2019-04-26 1:29 p.m., Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like >> "semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or >> "every other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you >> often see the other shown as a synonym. > > The problem is due to people using words without understanding heir meaning. > There should be no confusion between semiannual and biannual. semi means > half, and bi is two. > > If you want to really find out how messed up is the English language and the > definitions of words, start solving cryptic crossword puzzles. Some words > have three completely different sets of meanings. > > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > > http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that > https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and >| that's why we're powerful" > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | > #include | --Chris Hardwick > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
On 2019-04-26 1:29 p.m., Wayne Burdick wrote: Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like "semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or "every other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you often see the other shown as a synonym. The problem is due to people using words without understanding heir meaning. There should be no confusion between semiannual and biannual. semi means half, and bi is two. If you want to really find out how messed up is the English language and the definitions of words, start solving cryptic crossword puzzles. Some words have three completely different sets of meanings. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include | --Chris Hardwick __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
Just one more case of "no good deed goes unpunished!" The "punishment" was the innocent misuse of an infrequently used phrase when the writer clearly intended to praise Eric for far exceeding customer expectations. Not to belabor the point, but "beyond the pale" means exactly the opposite of what the writer intended: "Outside the bounds of morality, acceptable behavior or good judgement" 73 Frank W3LPL > On Apr 26, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Andy Durbin wrote: > > " When an owner of the company calls to assist, that is beyond the pale. " > > I wonder if that is what you really thought. > > https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html > > Maybe it means something completely different in other lands. > > 73, > Andy, k3wyc > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
On 4/26/2019 11:01 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Wayne was right, I meant that Eric had gone way beyond what was >> expected, in a good way. My understanding of the phrase was it >> meant beyond bad things and into the good. Sorry if you saw it >> otherwise. Guess I better watch out for the wordsmiths. > > Or worse, wordsmith wannabees, like me :) > But but but as I pound into the engineers working for me - be very careful with the stuff that you commit to reports and papers - we may be held to exactly that in the case of disputes. Color me nitpicker :)-- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 VP - General Counsel & Engineering Manager CSI Telecommunications, Inc. - Consulting Engineers San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
> On Apr 26, 2019, at 10:43 AM, James Brassell wrote: > > Andy, > > Wayne was right, I meant that Eric had gone way beyond what was expected, in > a good way. My understanding of the phrase was it meant beyond bad things > and into the good. Sorry if you saw it otherwise. Guess I better watch out > for the wordsmiths. Or worse, wordsmith wannabees, like me :) Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
Andy, Wayne was right, I meant that Eric had gone way beyond what was expected, in a good way. My understanding of the phrase was it meant beyond bad things and into the good. Sorry if you saw it otherwise. Guess I better watch out for the wordsmiths. 73, Jim K4ZMV On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 1:39 PM Andy McMullin via Elecraft < elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote: > Beyond the pale - outside the safe area protected by the British in > Ireland. Normally taken to mean immoral, dangerous and probably obscene. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 26 Apr 2019, at 18:29, Wayne Burdick wrote: > > > > "Beyond the pale" is an infrequently used idiomatic expression (at least > in the U.S.), probably misunderstood by many. I believe it is used in a > negative sense for the most part, but clearly that isn't what the writer > meant. > > > > Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like > "semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or > "every other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you > often see the other shown as a synonym. > > > > Wayne > > N6KR > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Frank Krozel wrote: > >> > >> I would be floored and would take a blank paper and a good pen. > >> > >> De KG9H > >> > >> > >>> On Apr 26, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Andy Durbin wrote: > >>> > >>> " When an owner of the company calls to assist, that is beyond the > pale. " > >>> > >>> I wonder if that is what you really thought. > >>> > >>> https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html > >>> > >>> Maybe it means something completely different in other lands. > >>> > >>> 73, > >>> Andy, k3wy > > __ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
Beyond the pale - outside the safe area protected by the British in Ireland. Normally taken to mean immoral, dangerous and probably obscene. Sent from my iPhone > On 26 Apr 2019, at 18:29, Wayne Burdick wrote: > > "Beyond the pale" is an infrequently used idiomatic expression (at least in > the U.S.), probably misunderstood by many. I believe it is used in a negative > sense for the most part, but clearly that isn't what the writer meant. > > Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like > "semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or > "every other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you often > see the other shown as a synonym. > > Wayne > N6KR > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Frank Krozel wrote: >> >> I would be floored and would take a blank paper and a good pen. >> >> De KG9H >> >> >>> On Apr 26, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Andy Durbin wrote: >>> >>> " When an owner of the company calls to assist, that is beyond the pale. " >>> >>> I wonder if that is what you really thought. >>> >>> https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html >>> >>> Maybe it means something completely different in other lands. >>> >>> 73, >>> Andy, k3wy > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
"Beyond the pale" is an infrequently used idiomatic expression (at least in the U.S.), probably misunderstood by many. I believe it is used in a negative sense for the most part, but clearly that isn't what the writer meant. Some English words have become completely useless in practice, like "semiannual" and "biannual," either of which can mean "twice a year" or "every other year." In fact if you look up the definition for one, you often see the other shown as a synonym. Wayne N6KR > On Apr 26, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Frank Krozel wrote: > > I would be floored and would take a blank paper and a good pen. > > De KG9H > > >> On Apr 26, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Andy Durbin wrote: >> >> " When an owner of the company calls to assist, that is beyond the pale. " >> >> I wonder if that is what you really thought. >> >> https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html >> >> Maybe it means something completely different in other lands. >> >> 73, >> Andy, k3wy __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Of words and such
I would be floored and would take a blank paper and a good pen. De KG9H > On Apr 26, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Andy Durbin wrote: > > " When an owner of the company calls to assist, that is beyond the pale. " > > I wonder if that is what you really thought. > > https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html > > Maybe it means something completely different in other lands. > > 73, > Andy, k3wyc > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Of words and such
" When an owner of the company calls to assist, that is beyond the pale. " I wonder if that is what you really thought. https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html Maybe it means something completely different in other lands. 73, Andy, k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
