Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2019 16 Jun 22:04 -0500, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> Yes, lugs can not be soldered alone.  They must be crimped first and THEN
> soldered.    At the same time, some installations of aeronautical equipment,
> along with NASA procedure, I do understand does indicate sweating solder
> into the lug and it thereby wicking up into the stranded wires makes for a
> "stiff" connection.   This connection is reported to break under vibration
> conditions.   I've personally never experienced such with ham equipment,
> although I've never carried any into space.  I suppose there is merit to
> this directive.    Perhaps you FAA and NASA types can expand this thought.

I've noted this before.  Before our shop started using crimp UHF
connectors--RF Industries brand of connectors and crimper--we had a high
failure rate of the kludge that is the PL-259 with the UG-174 adapter
and blobs of solder (some installed by us, most from elsewhere).  In
various track machines, trucks, and other railroad equipment I never
replaced a properly installed crimp connector.  I did replace a number
that came from the truck outfitters but those would arrive with a short
or without the center pin making contact with the coax center conductor,
but that is another story.

Yes, annealing of the wire when using solder is a no-go where flexing
may occur.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us  GPG key: D55A8819  GitHub: N0NB
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Nr4c]

This leads me to think if soldering lowered the “noise floor” over just 
crimping that the crimp wasn’t done properly. A proper crimp doesn’t leave any 
space for solder to fill 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Jun 17, 2019, at 4:32 AM, hawley, charles j jr  
> wrote:
> 
> Interesting about the additional soldering and resultant noise reduction. A 
> chart from the Indium Corp shows 63/37 solder to be about 11% of the 
> conductivity of copper. I guess that's better than air though.
> 
> https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/soldering-basics#chart
> Microwaves101 | Soldering 
> Basics<https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/soldering-basics#chart>
> Click here to go to our main page on packaging. New for February 2019: here's 
> a link to an update on lead-free solders, from Aerospace Corporation, from 
> 2011.In case you were wondering, the issues with lead-free solders have never 
> really gone away. To put it in perspective, 88% of lead consumed in the 
> United States is used in storage batteries, which are not subject to RoHS.
> www.microwaves101.com
> 
> 
> 
> Chuck Hawley
> c-haw...@illinois.edu
> 
> Amateur Radio, KE9UW
> aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
> 
> 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
> behalf of Bob McGraw K4TAX 
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 10:03 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance
> 
> The company for which I previously worked designed and built recording
> studio consoles.   In order to eek out every bit of noise, that is
> achieve the lowest noise floor, it was necessary to crimp and then
> solder the lugs on the power supply cables on both ends.  Crimping was
> only OK and was done until it was discovered that also soldering the
> lugs did lower noise floor a few dB. This leads me to conclude that
> crimping AND soldering is preferred, leading to a lower resistance
> connection.
> 
> For lightning grounding, joints and terminations, soldering alone is not
> permitted.  Crimping is required.
> 
> Yes, lugs can not be soldered alone.  They must be crimped first and
> THEN soldered.At the same time, some installations of aeronautical
> equipment, along with NASA procedure, I do understand does indicate
> sweating solder into the lug and it thereby wicking up into the stranded
> wires makes for a "stiff" connection.   This connection is reported to
> break under vibration conditions.   I've personally never experienced
> such with ham equipment, although I've never carried any into space.  I
> suppose there is merit to this directive.Perhaps you FAA and NASA
> types can expand this thought.
> 
> I am also aware with power distribution systems, a.k.a TVA,  it is quite
> common to use a crimp method to join wires.   These conductors  are
> several thousand circular mills in size and are of many layers of
> stranded conductors.  When properly and completely crimped by a
> hydraulic crimp machine, the joint is void of space. If fact, having cut
> one of these in half just to see for myself, it appeared as a solid rod
> with no voids observed.  Thus the strands were compressed to that
> degree.The center strand was steel as the messenger and the five
> outer layers of aluminum were alternating in direction of rotation,
> clockwise wound and counterclockwise wound.
> 
> In most cases, crimping connectors with a crimping tool which has the
> correct die for the connector is noted to be satisfactory.  On the other
> hand, I've seen many cables in various ham applications which were
> installed using what ever was handy to mash the sleeve.   That is NOT
> crimping.  Crimping does not distort the tubular diameter nor round
> shape of the sleeve as the correct size die prevents distortion of the
> sleeve.   A correct crimping tool puts a dimple in one side of the sleeve.
> 
> And now you know the rest of the story.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
>> On 6/16/2019 7:27 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> * On 2019 16 Jun 18:50 -0500, Kidder, George wrote:
>>> Interesting data, Don.  I wonder if there is any information about
>>> resistance variations between soldered and crimped terminals.  One might
>>> think that, with stranded wire, even a good crimp connection might not
>>> solidly involve all of the strands, and might additionally deteriorate
>>> with time since oxygen could get between the strands.  A good solder job
>>> should wet the wire through and (additionally) exclude oxygen.  This
>>> wouldn't be easy to measure, for sure, but these engineers are cleaver
>>> people!
>> For what it is worth, the company I worked for prohibited the use of
>

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[hawley, charles j jr]

Interesting about the additional soldering and resultant noise reduction. A 
chart from the Indium Corp shows 63/37 solder to be about 11% of the 
conductivity of copper. I guess that's better than air though.

https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/soldering-basics#chart
Microwaves101 | Soldering 
Basics<https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/soldering-basics#chart>
Click here to go to our main page on packaging. New for February 2019: here's a 
link to an update on lead-free solders, from Aerospace Corporation, from 
2011.In case you were wondering, the issues with lead-free solders have never 
really gone away. To put it in perspective, 88% of lead consumed in the United 
States is used in storage batteries, which are not subject to RoHS.
www.microwaves101.com



Chuck Hawley
 c-haw...@illinois.edu

 Amateur Radio, KE9UW
 aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles


From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Bob McGraw K4TAX 
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 10:03 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

The company for which I previously worked designed and built recording
studio consoles.   In order to eek out every bit of noise, that is
achieve the lowest noise floor, it was necessary to crimp and then
solder the lugs on the power supply cables on both ends.  Crimping was
only OK and was done until it was discovered that also soldering the
lugs did lower noise floor a few dB. This leads me to conclude that
crimping AND soldering is preferred, leading to a lower resistance
connection.

For lightning grounding, joints and terminations, soldering alone is not
permitted.  Crimping is required.

Yes, lugs can not be soldered alone.  They must be crimped first and
THEN soldered.At the same time, some installations of aeronautical
equipment, along with NASA procedure, I do understand does indicate
sweating solder into the lug and it thereby wicking up into the stranded
wires makes for a "stiff" connection.   This connection is reported to
break under vibration conditions.   I've personally never experienced
such with ham equipment, although I've never carried any into space.  I
suppose there is merit to this directive.Perhaps you FAA and NASA
types can expand this thought.

I am also aware with power distribution systems, a.k.a TVA,  it is quite
common to use a crimp method to join wires.   These conductors  are
several thousand circular mills in size and are of many layers of
stranded conductors.  When properly and completely crimped by a
hydraulic crimp machine, the joint is void of space. If fact, having cut
one of these in half just to see for myself, it appeared as a solid rod
with no voids observed.  Thus the strands were compressed to that
degree.The center strand was steel as the messenger and the five
outer layers of aluminum were alternating in direction of rotation,
clockwise wound and counterclockwise wound.

In most cases, crimping connectors with a crimping tool which has the
correct die for the connector is noted to be satisfactory.  On the other
hand, I've seen many cables in various ham applications which were
installed using what ever was handy to mash the sleeve.   That is NOT
crimping.  Crimping does not distort the tubular diameter nor round
shape of the sleeve as the correct size die prevents distortion of the
sleeve.   A correct crimping tool puts a dimple in one side of the sleeve.

And now you know the rest of the story.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 6/16/2019 7:27 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2019 16 Jun 18:50 -0500, Kidder, George wrote:
>> Interesting data, Don.  I wonder if there is any information about
>> resistance variations between soldered and crimped terminals.  One might
>> think that, with stranded wire, even a good crimp connection might not
>> solidly involve all of the strands, and might additionally deteriorate
>> with time since oxygen could get between the strands.  A good solder job
>> should wet the wire through and (additionally) exclude oxygen.  This
>> wouldn't be easy to measure, for sure, but these engineers are cleaver
>> people!
> For what it is worth, the company I worked for prohibited the use of
> soldered connectors for terminating bonding or power wiring.  Especially
> with regard to bonding, dissipating any lightning strike energy through
> a soldered connector could cause it to enough to melt the solder.  In
> doing some microwave site upgrades I did pull out a previous generation
> of bonding wiring that was soldered and some connectors had signs of
> being heated since installation.
>
> In my shack I use crimp connectors and a quality crimping tool with no
> problems.
>
> 73, Nate, N0NB
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Pos

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

The company for which I previously worked designed and built recording 
studio consoles.   In order to eek out every bit of noise, that is 
achieve the lowest noise floor, it was necessary to crimp and then 
solder the lugs on the power supply cables on both ends.  Crimping was 
only OK and was done until it was discovered that also soldering the 
lugs did lower noise floor a few dB. This leads me to conclude that 
crimping AND soldering is preferred, leading to a lower resistance 
connection.


For lightning grounding, joints and terminations, soldering alone is not 
permitted.  Crimping is required.


Yes, lugs can not be soldered alone.  They must be crimped first and 
THEN soldered.    At the same time, some installations of aeronautical 
equipment, along with NASA procedure, I do understand does indicate 
sweating solder into the lug and it thereby wicking up into the stranded 
wires makes for a "stiff" connection.   This connection is reported to 
break under vibration conditions.   I've personally never experienced 
such with ham equipment, although I've never carried any into space.  I 
suppose there is merit to this directive.    Perhaps you FAA and NASA 
types can expand this thought.


I am also aware with power distribution systems, a.k.a TVA,  it is quite 
common to use a crimp method to join wires.   These conductors  are 
several thousand circular mills in size and are of many layers of 
stranded conductors.  When properly and completely crimped by a 
hydraulic crimp machine, the joint is void of space. If fact, having cut 
one of these in half just to see for myself, it appeared as a solid rod 
with no voids observed.  Thus the strands were compressed to that 
degree.    The center strand was steel as the messenger and the five 
outer layers of aluminum were alternating in direction of rotation, 
clockwise wound and counterclockwise wound.


In most cases, crimping connectors with a crimping tool which has the 
correct die for the connector is noted to be satisfactory.  On the other 
hand, I've seen many cables in various ham applications which were 
installed using what ever was handy to mash the sleeve.   That is NOT 
crimping.  Crimping does not distort the tubular diameter nor round 
shape of the sleeve as the correct size die prevents distortion of the 
sleeve.   A correct crimping tool puts a dimple in one side of the sleeve.


And now you know the rest of the story.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 6/16/2019 7:27 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

* On 2019 16 Jun 18:50 -0500, Kidder, George wrote:

Interesting data, Don.  I wonder if there is any information about
resistance variations between soldered and crimped terminals.  One might
think that, with stranded wire, even a good crimp connection might not
solidly involve all of the strands, and might additionally deteriorate
with time since oxygen could get between the strands.  A good solder job
should wet the wire through and (additionally) exclude oxygen.  This
wouldn't be easy to measure, for sure, but these engineers are cleaver
people!

For what it is worth, the company I worked for prohibited the use of
soldered connectors for terminating bonding or power wiring.  Especially
with regard to bonding, dissipating any lightning strike energy through
a soldered connector could cause it to enough to melt the solder.  In
doing some microwave site upgrades I did pull out a previous generation
of bonding wiring that was soldered and some connectors had signs of
being heated since installation.

In my shack I use crimp connectors and a quality crimping tool with no
problems.

73, Nate, N0NB



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Mark Goldberg]

I cut a cross-section of my battery cable crimps and it essentially is one
solid block of copper:

See this page:

https://sites.google.com/site/marksrvmods/home/battery-wiring

Note that expensive crimpers are "calibrated". They make one or more
connections on sacrificial wiring and cross-section them to verify that the
crimps are good. Since I cheaped out on a crimper, I did the same to give
me some confidence it was done right. A better crimper with the correct
sized dies would not require the careful multiple crimps I had to do with
this wiring.

I've used the Powerwerx crimping tools on many 15, 30, 45 and 75A
Powerpoles and not had any issues with them. I don't solder them.

73,

Mark
W7MLG
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

[Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Andy Durbin]

"but these engineers are cleaver people!"

Engineers with slide rules are arguably less of a threat than those with 
cleavers.

Resistance is futile...

73,
Andy, k3wyc
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Don Wilhelm]

George,

Solid wire will eventually break if it is flexed - and it will break 
right where the terminals are attached.


Stranded wire that is soldered will also break - right where the end of 
the solder that wicked up the wire stops.


The best is stranded wire with crimped connections made with a proper 
crimping tool.  Done properly, that should result in an air-tight 
connection that should not oxidize.


In order to do that, you must use a crimping tool that is sized for the 
wire and terminal that you are using.  Crimping with just any tool will 
"not get it".


If you do not have the proper crimping tool, soldering is OK, but 
support the wire for about 2 inches away from the soldered terminal so 
there is no chance that it can flex.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/16/2019 7:22 PM, Kidder, George wrote:

Interesting data, Don.  I wonder if there is any information about
resistance variations between soldered and crimped terminals.  One might
think that, with stranded wire, even a good crimp connection might not
solidly involve all of the strands, and might additionally deteriorate
with time since oxygen could get between the strands.  A good solder job
should wet the wire through and (additionally) exclude oxygen.  This
wouldn't be easy to measure, for sure, but these engineers are cleaver
people!

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2019 16 Jun 18:50 -0500, Kidder, George wrote:
> Interesting data, Don.  I wonder if there is any information about 
> resistance variations between soldered and crimped terminals.  One might 
> think that, with stranded wire, even a good crimp connection might not 
> solidly involve all of the strands, and might additionally deteriorate 
> with time since oxygen could get between the strands.  A good solder job 
> should wet the wire through and (additionally) exclude oxygen.  This 
> wouldn't be easy to measure, for sure, but these engineers are cleaver 
> people!

For what it is worth, the company I worked for prohibited the use of
soldered connectors for terminating bonding or power wiring.  Especially
with regard to bonding, dissipating any lightning strike energy through
a soldered connector could cause it to enough to melt the solder.  In
doing some microwave site upgrades I did pull out a previous generation
of bonding wiring that was soldered and some connectors had signs of
being heated since installation.

In my shack I use crimp connectors and a quality crimping tool with no
problems.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us  GPG key: D55A8819  GitHub: N0NB
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

Re: [Elecraft] Terminal resistance

[Kidder, George]

Interesting data, Don.  I wonder if there is any information about 
resistance variations between soldered and crimped terminals.  One might 
think that, with stranded wire, even a good crimp connection might not 
solidly involve all of the strands, and might additionally deteriorate 
with time since oxygen could get between the strands.  A good solder job 
should wet the wire through and (additionally) exclude oxygen.  This 
wouldn't be easy to measure, for sure, but these engineers are cleaver 
people!

73 - George, W3HBM

On 6/12/2019 7:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> [This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to 
> ab...@ilstu.edu]
> 
> After consulting copper wire tables and typical connection resistances,
> I can present the following analysis for a 20 amp load:
> 
> Often hams power their 100 watt transceivers through DC distribution
> devices such as a RigRunner which will contribute to the voltage drop.
> Also in-line fuses will contribute to voltage drop.
> 
> Connection resistance contributes .05 volt loss under a 20 amp load for
> each contact point, you have 6 contact points in the path for a fused
> RigRunner plus two in the APP connector at the transceiver, plus the
> connection to the power supply for a total of 10 contact points.  You
> have to consider the negative path as well as the positive.  So that is
> a total of 0.5 volts of the total voltage drop.
> 
> By contrast, a 5 foot length under a 20 amp load of #12 wire has 0.1588
> ohms (in both conductors) for a voltage drop of 0.3176 volts, and #10
> wire a drop of 0.1998 volts.
> 
> So conclusion is that while increasing the wire size can reduce the
> voltage drop, the main contributor is in the power distribution system.
> 
> A path direct from the power supply terminals can be expected to have a
> 0.5 volt drop with 5 feet of #12 wire to the inside of the K3. and #10
> wire can have a 0.4 volt drop - the difference is only slightly 
> significant.
> 
> Conclusion - in a 5 foot power cable run, the difference between #10 and
> #12 wire is only 0.1 volts (0.05 volts in each of the positive and
> negative leads) - the major contributor is the number of contact points.
> 
> So for those who choose to measure the voltage drop from the power
> supply terminals to the APP connector on the outside of the K3, you
> should measure about 0.2 volts in each conductor with #12 wire and 0.15
> volts with #10 wire.  If it is much more than that, check your power
> supply connection tightness and your crimp connections.
> 
> Run the transceiver direct from a power supply using ring terminals
> instead of routing through a power distribution accessory.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 6/12/2019 6:29 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> Regarding "heavy gauge wire", I suggest one measure the voltage drop
>> using a DVM connected direct between the power supply Pos terminal and
>> the radio Pos terminal.   Likewise do the same for the Neg DC line. Put
>> the radio in CW mode and close the key for rated output.    If one finds
>> more than 0.25 volts drop in either the Pos or Neg line, I'd say that
>> attention to the power cable and connectors would be in order. Also
>> measure between radio ground and power supply ground.   Again a voltage
>> value greater than 0.25 volts indicates attention to the power
>> distribution system and station equipment grounding is needed.
>>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to gkid...@ilstu.edu
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com