Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
--- "Stephen W. Kercel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dave: > > From the 1 callsign, I expect that you are located in New England. If so, > you're on the ragged edge of the normal coverage of WWVB. It is likely that > the location is giving you as much trouble as the metal siding. WWVB is by no means a "weak signal". But like everything thing else in radio, "It's the signal-to-noise ratio, stupid!" :-) Look for local noise sources. Much like an AM radio, "atomic clocks" use a ferrite loopstick antenna for reception. The tiny receivers in them have a sensitivity is on order of 0.5 uV. A tuning fork crystal provides selectivity on the order of 10 Hz. A loopstick antenna responds primarily to the magnetic component of electromagnetic waves. Since magnetic fields follow an inverse cube (rather than inverse square) law, if you've got an interference problem with a magnetic probe antenna, the source is likey right under your nose. Keep your clock as far away from (and at right angles to) gadgets in your home that might use switch-mode power supplies (EVEN if they are turned off!). Our Sylvania color TV set is a prime generator of LF hash at my QTH, even when the TV is off. It took me a year and a half to discover this -- by accident! Also, the 5th harmonic of any TV's horizontal oscillator is only a few kHz from 60 kHz. Computer monitors sometimes cause problems as well. I've heard that some UPS units use a switched-mode power supply operating at 60 kHz. (Manufacturers have discovered the virues of RF, if only they gave it the respect it deserves.) "Atomic clocks" typically sync themselves periodically (typically during the evening when signals are strongest, and noise levels subside). They free-run on a 32.768 kHz oscillator, just like any other quartz-based clock. Their "speed" is not under control of the precise 60 kHz carrier to which they are tuned. Only spot checks are made to correct for timing errors. In between, you're on your own. Personally, I don't own an "atomic clock"... My story's different, but directly related to my K2/100. I'm in the process of developing a WWVB-based frequency standard that was inspired by building and calibrating my K2/100 in 2003. When I tried to beat a harmonic of the 4 MHz oscillator against WWV on 20 MHz for calibration, and couldn't copy WWV on 20 MHz for many days (weeks?), I knew I had to find a better approach. Having a test signal of known precision would have been a nice way to perform the frequency counter calibration. I've made quite a lot of progress with the project, and have even used it along with my K2 in the past two ARRL Frequency Measurement Tests with very good results. My antenna is a 40-turn air-core loop, 4-meters in circumference (that's over 600 feet of wire!). I cheated and used 40 conductor ribbon cable to build the loop. This feeds an Analog Devices instrumentation amplifier (to maintain electrical balance) that is remotely powered by the receiver (the antenna and preamp are in the attic). The rest is a secret (only kidding!), but it involves balanced synchronous detection, zero IF (baseband) filtering, and correlation decoding. Incidentially, I cannot hear WWVB at all using an LF upconverter, a 75-meter dipole, and my K2. All I hear is noise. Yet, I have SOLID copy, any day, any time, on my specialized receiver, and I'm over 1600 miles from WWVB. Kinda make you wonder what else is out there, doesn't it? > If you cannot get it to come into sync within a week, then you probably do > need an outdoor antenna. I'm sure that many participants in this reflector > could come up with a practical way to build a 60 kHz external antenna and > hook it to your clock. If I were doing it, I would look for one of the > commercially made antennas that are designed for the time servers that some > computer networks use. Another approach might be to build a resonant loop (it can be smaller than the one I described), and place it in proximity, (magnetically coupled) to your "atomic clock". This would be similar to the "Select-A-Tenna" (or similar devices) used to improve AM radio reception in fringe areas. In closing, don't expect miracles from these clocks. They are simple designs that perform best under high SNR conditions. They appear to be too easily "fooled" by noise. They don't do WWVB justice. 73, de John, KD2BD = Visit John on the Web at: http://www.qsl.net/kd2bd/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
At 12:34 PM -0800 1/9/05, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest millisecond. I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look at that!" After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty practicality... Ron, I think you are missing it completely. We hams tend to be lazy. We build things to make it easier for us. In my case, I got really tired of my wife yelling at me because the clocks were an hour off six months out of the year. Why some years it got so bad that I actually considered resetting some of the clocks. Then I found (and bought) some of these "atomic clocks." They are on-time all year around, The YF doesn't miss her shows any more, and, most important, they have eliminated the "atomic ache." I just wish I had thought of creating the device before anyone else had so that now _I_ would be rich and not the guy who actually did it... THAT's the "Gee whiz" factor, as in, "Gee whiz, why didn't I think of that..." -Jack Brindle, W6FB === ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
ya, ya as an old Cdn AF Nav plus an astro-physicist, I'll stick with WWV! Ron VA6RL - Original Message - From: "Fred Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding > > And, if anyone wants, I will send them a picture I took of two > > identical model atomic clocks, both showing that they are "locked" > > and showing different times (nothing doctored in the picture, time > > zones the same, etc.). > > Hmmm...I wonder why they call them "Atomic Clocks?" Other than being > made of atoms like everything else, there is nothing "atomic" about any > of them. All the atomic things are in Ft. Collins, Hawaii, and on GPS > spaceships. I think my clock (which I won at the radio club raffle) > syncs to WWVB on 60 KHz, which I can hear on the left-coast at night, > but not in the daytime. > > I volunteer at the Blood Center, and since the FDA requires that they > keep a series of times for each of the various blood donation steps for > each donor, they got us three "Atomic Clocks," two Sony's and a Seiko, > so all the times would be consistent. My job was to hang them on the > walls, and when they were laying together on the table, I noticed that > they all differed from each other by as much as 10 seconds. I took in > my K2, and they all differed from WWV too. So much for "atomic time," > my Pulsar watch does better than that. > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > Auburn CA CM98lw > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was there circa 1992. I live two miles from WWV. I get accurate time on my atomic clock, my telephone, my stereo, my TV... -- 73, Jay K0GU DN70mq ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Ron, AC7AC wrote: "That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month." == I guess I'm more of a perfectionist than Ron. After three or four battery-operated digital clocks that gained or lost one or two seconds a month (resetting them was always a pain in the butt), I plunked down $12 at Wal-Mart for an Oregon-Scientific "atomic" clock that is always exact whenever I check it against 10 MHz WWV. It displays GMT date and time (down to the second) and is the ideal clock for the ham shack. It also works indoors in the ham shack, whereas my much more expensive hand-held GPS (which also displays accurate local time) does not (those microwaves don't go through anything opaque). 73, de Earl, K6SE ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Almost everything in life can be overdone, except for K2 Mojo. I have GPS clocks at work that keep the PC's all agreeing with each other. But I did want a Gee-Whiz factor for the shack. At Dayton last year I bought my very first MFJ product, a Model 121 clock. This is a large Dual LCD readout "atomic" clock. You set one display to local, the other to UTC. And it shows hours, minutes and seconds. It's the best of all worlds. And now that SBC has dropped the time lady, by wife (W8IIE and provider of my K2), takes it off the wall and uses it to set all the "blinking" clocks in the house. When it comes to time and accuracy, remember the saying " A man with one clock knows the time. A man with two isn't sure". tom bosscher K8TB ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
> And, if anyone wants, I will send them a picture I took of two > identical model atomic clocks, both showing that they are "locked" > and showing different times (nothing doctored in the picture, time > zones the same, etc.). Hmmm...I wonder why they call them "Atomic Clocks?" Other than being made of atoms like everything else, there is nothing "atomic" about any of them. All the atomic things are in Ft. Collins, Hawaii, and on GPS spaceships. I think my clock (which I won at the radio club raffle) syncs to WWVB on 60 KHz, which I can hear on the left-coast at night, but not in the daytime. I volunteer at the Blood Center, and since the FDA requires that they keep a series of times for each of the various blood donation steps for each donor, they got us three "Atomic Clocks," two Sony's and a Seiko, so all the times would be consistent. My job was to hang them on the walls, and when they were laying together on the table, I noticed that they all differed from each other by as much as 10 seconds. I took in my K2, and they all differed from WWV too. So much for "atomic time," my Pulsar watch does better than that. 73, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98lw ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
NO Stan Rife W5EWA Houston, TX K2 S/N 4216 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding Yep. Several ops mentioned modes I don't use . I often use the propagation beacons at 20 meters and down, but my PC clock is synched to NIS through the internet connection, so it's always "dead on" for that purpose. Is it okay if I buy an atomic clock some day for the 'Gee Whiz' factor ? Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Yep. Several ops mentioned modes I don't use . I often use the propagation beacons at 20 meters and down, but my PC clock is synched to NIS through the internet connection, so it's always "dead on" for that purpose. Is it okay if I buy an atomic clock some day for the 'Gee Whiz' factor ? Ron AC7AC -Original Message- ...there are some fairly routine operations in which sub-second resolution is a necessity and not a luxury. These include the synchronization of beacons, or identifying which of several synchronized beacons you're receiving if you can detect that the signal is present but cannot make out the callsign... 73, Steve AA4AK ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Ron: Probably, unless one is using some very exotic mode such as Coherent CW, millisecond synchronization is not actually required for ham operations. However, there are some fairly routine operations in which sub-second resolution is a necessity and not a luxury. These include the synchronization of beacons, or identifying which of several synchronized beacons you're receiving if you can detect that the signal is present but cannot make out the callsign. I would also think that coordinated operations such as hidden transmitter hunting would be greatly enhanced if all the participants have the same time within less that a tenth of a second. However, for routine (or even contest) logging, I agree with you that a six dollar clock is as good as you need. Nevertheless, I did get an atomic clock, partly to facilitate DX beacon monitoring, but primarily for the gee whiz factor. 73, Steve AA4AK At 12:34 PM 1/9/2005 -0800, you wrote: Charles wrote: The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25 for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both has come down. That's the why. - I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest millisecond. For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log are always exactly right. And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much... I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look at that!" After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty practicality... Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Well, there are times when you need fairly accurate time. When tracking satellites across the sky for the digital modes, or the weather sats. Your tracking software has to be pretty close to the correct time to keep up with the position of the satellites. I have a controller that moves the rotators automatically and it's really neat to sit back and watch it work. Seeing the sat signal near a constant S-meter reading at all times while the satellite is in view is nice when you are busy on the keyboard transferring files or mail. Stan Rife W5EWA Houston, TX K2 S/N 4216 -Original Message- From: Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:34 PM To: 'Elecraft Reflector' Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest millisecond. For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log are always exactly right. And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much... I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look at that!" After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty practicality... Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
For some digital modes, you have to know the time to the second or close to it, as some digital sequences are 15 or 30 seconds long. Even for typical SHF terrestrial work, the common adage is "You call on the odd, I call on the even." There are 60 and 30 second sequences on that too I believe. The cheapo atomic clocks are novelties at best. Here in NE, they don't always lock in WWV reliably. And, if anyone wants, I will send them a picture I took of two identical model atomic clocks, both showing that they are "locked" and showing different times (nothing doctored in the picture, time zones the same, etc.). You are better off buying a GPS if you want reliable time. Of course, just buy a used computer for <$100 and download a free NTP client and then you have a rather accurate clock with a huge display. At 1/9/2005 03:34 PM, you wrote: >Charles wrote: > >The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25 >for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both >has come down. That's the why. >- > >I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not >because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest >millisecond. > >For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the >current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose >because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It >stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year >against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log >are always exactly right. > >And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much... > >I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look >at that!" > >After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not >insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty >practicality... > >Ron AC7AC > > >___ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Charles wrote: The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25 for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both has come down. That's the why. - I thought atomic clocks were desired for their "gee whiz" interest, not because someone usually needs to know what time it is to the nearest millisecond. For logging or station activities, I've never kept time closer than the current minute. That means my $6 Radio Shack digital clock that I chose because it was on sale and provides a 24-hour time format is perfect. It stays accurate to within one or two seconds a month. Setting it twice a year against WWV at 5 or 10 MHz means the contact times in my in my station log are always exactly right. And, for $6 if I ever lose it I'll not cry... Too much... I'm serious about the value of the "gee whiz" factor as in, "Gee whiz! Look at that!" After all, isn't that why we're all hams and why we build gear? Let's not insist on diluting the sheer enjoyment of the "Gee whiz" response with petty practicality... Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Several years ago I had the opportunity to visit the WWVH site on Kaua'i. I drove into the site, found the office, went in and there was NO ONE there. Oh, well...I signed the visitor log and scanned through it, noticing the large number of hams who had visited. I even recognized some of the calls. After 15 minutes with no sign of life, I was getting ready to leave, when in walks the chief engineer decked out in his climbing gear. He had been up on the 2.5 MHz vertical dipole doing some maintenance, saw me drive in and climbed down to greet me! It turns out there is only one person on the site at any one time and it's not manned at night or on weekends. There are alarms on each of the transmitters which will shut them down if there are any problems and dial the home of one of the site operators. So then I got the full 25cent tour. The transmitters are sort of ho-hum, just off the shelf commercial 10kW rigs of various manufacture. There might be a 20kW unit but I don't remember. What was of real interest was the "frequency/time" room. A real ham shack!! Lots of 6' racks with a variety of LMBs hanging by their power leads or coax. Old pieces of gear gathering dust in a corner, a work bench with pieces of gear and PC boards in various states of repair. All of the frequency and time standards. Any way, a very interesting place. The engineer wasn't a ham but was used to dealing with the strange breed and was most gracious. I was there for over an hour and I think he was just happy to have someone to talk to. Doug W6JD - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding > In a message dated 1/8/05 11:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > > I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, > > 60 kHz. > > -- > > Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was > there circa 1992. > > 73 de Jim, N2EY > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
To bad they don't make one that you can interface your existing GPS receiver to. Stan Rife W5EWA Houston, TX K2 S/N 4216 -Original Message- From: Dan Allen Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding I was wanting a Nixie tube clock (either kit or assembled). I have been using the search terms (Nixie clock) on EBay for a few months. A fellow there has been offering a Nixie clock with a built-in GPS receiver, and with an external GPS antenna. If I remember correctly, it was a little pricey, but I am still tempted! Dan Allen KB4ZVM K2 S/N 1757 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
I was wanting a Nixie tube clock (either kit or assembled). I have been using the search terms (Nixie clock) on EBay for a few months. A fellow there has been offering a Nixie clock with a built-in GPS receiver, and with an external GPS antenna. If I remember correctly, it was a little pricey, but I am still tempted! Dan Allen KB4ZVM K2 S/N 1757 - Original Message - From: "Jim Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Robert Rennard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:39 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding Bob - I notice that you were associated closely with the GPS system at one time. Do you know of a source for a GPS clock - that is to say, a clock only, with a fairly large digital display, preferably 24 hours, settable lo local or GMT. The GPS positioning function would not be needed. Application: Hamshack main clock. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
A GPS receiver inside an aluminum-sided house may also have some trouble. Mine, which has no external antenna, has trouble picking up satellites in my (brick-sided) house and in my (metal-sided) car, other than on the dashboard near the windshield. If I ever get lost in my basement, the GPS receiver won't help (hi). My cell phone has much better coverage, but I'd need a magnifying glass to read the time from that display. John AA0VE At 12:34 AM 1/9/2005, Robert Rennard wrote: Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It should work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1 microsecond relative to UTC. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Gus et.al. - Original Message - From: "Augie Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding ... WWV, and the Budweiser Brewery for some samples of King of beers. Life is good! ... Better still is Coopersmiths in Old Town, http://www.coopersmithspub.com/info.html and/or the New Belgium brewery. http://www.newbelgium.com/brewtour.asp Life is better! :-) -- 73, Rod N0RC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
All, - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was there circa 1992. A virtual tour can be had at: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm -- 73, Rod N0RC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Bob, The "cheapest" GPS receiver I ever bought costs $100 compared to the > $25 for the WWV clock. That was a couple of years ago, and the cost of both has come down. That's the why. Chas At 12:34 AM 1/9/2005, Robert Rennard wrote: Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It should work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1 microsecond relative to UTC. Most of the time location accuracy is around 10-30 meters, so equivalently the time error at a GPS receiver is 35 to 105 nanoseconds or so relative to GPS time that is maintained to within 100 nanoseconds of UTC. If you want to see the past week's relative error, try http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpstt.html. The Sprint PCS and Verizon networks, and probably others, are synchronized to GPS as well, but I have no source for the time keeping accuracy produced by your connected wireless phone. Bob Rennard, N7WY USAF GPS Program Office class of 1978 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Bob - I notice that you were associated closely with the GPS system at one time. Do you know of a source for a GPS clock - that is to say, a clock only, with a fairly large digital display, preferably 24 hours, settable lo local or GMT. The GPS positioning function would not be needed. Application: Hamshack main clock. I have one of the Heath GC-1000 "Most accurate clock" combination (HF) WWV / WWVH receiver and clock, which works well, but someday it will croak. When it does, parts are likely to be hard to obtain, and having a GPS driven system will eliminate the necessity for an outside HF antenna (the whip is inadequate up this way). 73 - Jim, KL7CC Robert Rennard wrote: Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It should work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1 microsecond relative to UTC. Most of the time location accuracy is around 10-30 meters, so equivalently the time error at a GPS receiver is 35 to 105 nanoseconds or so relative to GPS time that is maintained to within 100 nanoseconds of UTC. If you want to see the past week's relative error, try http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpstt.html. The Sprint PCS and Verizon networks, and probably others, are synchronized to GPS as well, but I have no source for the time keeping accuracy produced by your connected wireless phone. Bob Rennard, N7WY USAF GPS Program Office class of 1978 - Original Message - From: "David A. Belsley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:03 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell, does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna? thanks, dave belsley, w1euy ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Why not just use a cheap GPS receiver instead of a WWVB receiver. It should work anywhere in the world, and give time keeping accuracy better than 1 microsecond relative to UTC. Most of the time location accuracy is around 10-30 meters, so equivalently the time error at a GPS receiver is 35 to 105 nanoseconds or so relative to GPS time that is maintained to within 100 nanoseconds of UTC. If you want to see the past week's relative error, try http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpstt.html. The Sprint PCS and Verizon networks, and probably others, are synchronized to GPS as well, but I have no source for the time keeping accuracy produced by your connected wireless phone. Bob Rennard, N7WY USAF GPS Program Office class of 1978 - Original Message - From: "David A. Belsley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:03 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding > Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell, > does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you > can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is > pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna? > > thanks, > > dave belsley, w1euy > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Dave: From the 1 callsign, I expect that you are located in New England. If so, you're on the ragged edge of the normal coverage of WWVB. It is likely that the location is giving you as much trouble as the metal siding. Despite my 4 callsign, I am in New England (I live in Maine), and although my house is not metal-sided, my atomic clock (one of those solar powered MFJs with the big numbers) is located in the basement. What I have found is that the sync indication comes and goes. It often takes several days for the clock receiver to sync with WWVB. It will hold sync for a week or so at a time, but it occasionally drops out. However, I am in synch more often than not. The resulting time reading is surely accurate enough for most ham purposes. When you lose sync after having acquired it, the cock loses accuracy, but very slowly. When I listen to the NCDXF/IARU beacons, they are always start at the beginning of the second as indicated on my atomic clock even if it has temporarily lost sync. Personally, I would not recommend trying to modify the clock. In any case, before you start performing surgery on your clock, I offer a radical suggestion. Put the clock up in whatever position you want it to be for your ham operations, and just leave it. Do so for about a week. I suspect that there's enough signal leaking in through the door and window openings that the clock receiver will eventually (on the order of days) find the sync signal. If you cannot get it to come into sync within a week, then you probably do need an outdoor antenna. I'm sure that many participants in this reflector could come up with a practical way to build a 60 kHz external antenna and hook it to your clock. If I were doing it, I would look for one of the commercially made antennas that are designed for the time servers that some computer networks use. 73, Steve AA4AK At 11:03 PM 1/8/2005 -0500, you wrote: Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell, does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna? thanks, dave belsley, w1euy ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
On 1/8/05 9:30 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was > there circa 1992. My daughter is a student at Colorado State Univ. in Fort Collins. Once in a while when on trips to the school from Denver I make side trips to one or two other important places: The impressive antenna farm and transmitters of WWV, and the Budweiser Brewery for some samples of King of beers. Life is good! 73, Gus Hansen KB0YH ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
In a message dated 1/8/05 11:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, 60 kHz. -- Anybody else on this reflector ever been to the WWV transmitter site? I was there circa 1992. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding
Dave my house has aluminum siding and my atomic clocks work just fine. There are some areas in North America where the signal may not be strong enough. Anothing thing you might try is to wind a coil around the clock in behind and run an open lead so that there is coupling to the clock antenna and more capture area. It should not take much. Note you're not connecting the coil to the antenna but allowing the coil to be in proximity to it. Robert VE3RPF - Original Message - From: "David A. Belsley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:03 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Atomic Clocks and Aluminum Siding Atomic Clocks are great additions to the shack. But how, pray tell, does one get them to work inside a house with aluminum siding when you can't put it next to a window? I believe WWVB is on 80KHz, which is pretty low. Can one couple them to an antenna? thanks, dave belsley, w1euy ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
