Re: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
Hi Tom - just a quick note to let you know that I use an old IBM 380ED (not sure what the difference is between it and the 380D) with the K2 and thankfully have not experienced the flaky communication problem that you are having. I also use it with the Yaesu Mark V and again no problems. Just FYI - I'm using XMLog as well as N1MM Logger and both communicate well in both directions using the 380ED as well as with a 2.4 gig P4 laptop that gets moved around. A shot in the dark, but on occasion, I have noted problems reported by others on other reflectors related to some specific piece of software and the polling speed and the timing issues involved when used with various radios. Also note are problems with the settings of serial port in terms of speed, parity, etc. Maybe this is an issue with the software and not your faithful 380! 73 -- Don N4HH - Original Message - From: Tom Hammond [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems Hi Folks: For quite a while I've blamed my KIO2 _and_ my KPA100 (s/n 0008) for some serial communications problems I've been experiencing... I can SEND data to the PC with no problem, BUT I cannot RECEIVE data FROM the PC... Today, while getting a local's K2/100 (s/n 4224) ready for Field Dat (and PC logging) I think I've determined that the problem may not be my K2, but the PC! The PC I've been using as an IBM ThinkPad 380D Laptop which USED TO communicate very reliably with the K2... however, since about a year ago, communications have been 'flakey' at best... sometimes on, sometimes off... with no rhyme or reason (that I've been able to determine) to the failures. I've now tried this laptop with two K2/100's and two different serial cables of my manufacture and verified to be properly wired (in case someone wants to ask). Serial comms work fine if the K2 is sending data, but fails if the PC is sending it back to the K2. I'm beginning to thing that maybe (and I've not yet scoped it to confirm) that the signalling voltage on the RXD (K2 side) line may be marginal and that the serial adapters in the KPA100s just can't quite decode the voltage changes. Guess I'll hang a scope on it later today and see what's going on there. Last time I did this, I HAD data going into the MAX1406 (pin 6, R3IN/RXD), but nothing coming out on R3OUT/K2 RX, which tends to imply that the MAX1406 wasn't (or couldn't) decode the incoming data for one reason or the other. I swapped out the MAX1406 and there was no change, BUT then, sometime a bit later, all of a sudden serial comms picked back up and all was well... and no, I'd not changed anything. At that point I blamed myself for a poorly soldered connection somewhere in the serial comms section, BUT since the problem also shows on a completely different K2, I now absolve myself of that onus. Has anyone else experienced a serial comms problem with their Laptop PC? I know some Laptops tend to use RS232 voltages quite a bit less than those used on desktop PCs, voltages which might cause problems under certain circumstances. Suggestions are ALWAYS most welcome. 73, Tom Hammond N0SS ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 6/11/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 6/11/05 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
Hi Tom and All, I had a similar problem with a non Elecraft I/O device. I built an I/O converter for a TS-850, before I realized how much better the K2 is and sold the TS-850 ;o). It's the standard Kenwood interface using a Maxim chip and two opto-isolators. I added LEDS so I could see activity. I was not getting any activity from the radio to the PC. I noted that the opto-isolator, when tripped by the Maxim voltage going high was taking far too much current. It was pulling the voltage of the Maxim down. I solved this by putting a standard 2n amp between the optoisolator and the Maxim chip. I made sure the 2n did not take so much current from the Maxim to disable the output. This did the trick. Could it be that your receive rs232 port is drawing to much current from the Maxim chip, and pulling the output of the chip down? In this case a 2na could boost the voltage to the rs232 port and reduce the current used by the Maxim chip. It should be easy to check the output of the Maxim chip with a DMM. If it is being pulled down, try adding the amp. Regards, Steve, W2MY PS I just got my KIO2 working on K2 #402. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
RATS!!! Well, I think I've found the culprit of my K2 serial comms problem... and it's the laptop!!! Unfortunately! My IBM ThinkPad 380D shown the following voltages: Voltages: TXD line (from K2PA100): Quiescent: -15VDC Sending data: +5VDC RXD line (from IBM ThinkPad 380D): Quiescent: -5VDC Sending Data: +1.0VDC Given data provided by Jack Brindle, W6FB, the TXD line appears to be about 1.4VDC under the minimum required voltage. And no, the K2 is not pulling down (loading) the output from the laptop... it reads the same connected to the K2 or not. Not sure this is going to be something I can fix as if it were my K2! Will advise if/when I DO get it fixed though. 73, and thanks to all those who have offered suggestions and support. Tom N0SS ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re:[Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
N0SS continued: Well, I think I've found the culprit of my K2 serial comms problem... and it's the laptop!!! Unfortunately! My IBM ThinkPad 380D shown the following voltages: Voltages: TXD line (from K2PA100): Quiescent: -15VDC Sending data: +5VDC RXD line (from IBM ThinkPad 380D): Quiescent: -5VDC Sending Data: +1.0VDC Given data provided by Jack Brindle, W6FB, the TXD line appears to be about 1.4VDC under the minimum required voltage. That is likely to remain flaky. I can't find my copy of EIA/TIA-232-F, but ITU-T V.28 mentions the 3 volts as the minimum that I always remember. 5 volts may be what a driver should produce, as I did find some mention of 2 volts allowance for noise at the far end. Interesting - the usual culprit is something to do with a software driver, as had been suggested. Now is this some sort of intermittent hardware fault, or could it be that one can't assume that an IBM ThinkPad's RS-232 port(s) don't do real RS-232? I was counting on getting a ThinkPad as it's on of the few decent laptops that can still be had with a real serial port! Speaking of serial control of the K2, a few months ago I was looking at the chirp (cricket sound when polled for frequency data by a computer) the data received by the K2 does get serious radiated by the ribbon cable - though no amount of dressing of the cable made a difference, suggesting rather than induced by the ribbon into surrounding circuitry, it's induced into the lines in the ribbon itself (power?). Have a look with a 'scope probe around the ribbon note the difference in RXD TXD-induced spikes coming from the ribbon. Anybody have any idea why RS232-in-converted-to-TTL should be worse than TTL-converted-into-RS232-out? 73, VR2BrettGraham ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
It seems to me IBM does something weird with the printer ports too. I tried using my ThinkPad I got back in 2000 as a lap timer for slot cars and had all sorts of problems. Ended up just getting a cheap desktop and putting that on. I have had really good luck with the Keyspan USB-RS-232 dongles though. Randy Rathbun, NV0U K2 #1981 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jun 13, 2005, at 7:56 PM, VR2BrettGraham wrote: N0SS continued: Well, I think I've found the culprit of my K2 serial comms problem... and it's the laptop!!! Unfortunately! My IBM ThinkPad 380D shown the following voltages: Voltages: TXD line (from K2PA100): Quiescent: -15VDC Sending data: +5VDC RXD line (from IBM ThinkPad 380D): Quiescent: -5VDC Sending Data: +1.0VDC Given data provided by Jack Brindle, W6FB, the TXD line appears to be about 1.4VDC under the minimum required voltage. That is likely to remain flaky. I can't find my copy of EIA/TIA-232-F, but ITU-T V.28 mentions the 3 volts as the minimum that I always remember. 5 volts may be what a driver should produce, as I did find some mention of 2 volts allowance for noise at the far end. Interesting - the usual culprit is something to do with a software driver, as had been suggested. Now is this some sort of intermittent hardware fault, or could it be that one can't assume that an IBM ThinkPad's RS-232 port(s) don't do real RS-232? I was counting on getting a ThinkPad as it's on of the few decent laptops that can still be had with a real serial port! Speaking of serial control of the K2, a few months ago I was looking at the chirp (cricket sound when polled for frequency data by a computer) the data received by the K2 does get serious radiated by the ribbon cable - though no amount of dressing of the cable made a difference, suggesting rather than induced by the ribbon into surrounding circuitry, it's induced into the lines in the ribbon itself (power?). Have a look with a 'scope probe around the ribbon note the difference in RXD TXD-induced spikes coming from the ribbon. Anybody have any idea why RS232-in-converted-to-TTL should be worse than TTL-converted-into-RS232-out? 73, VR2BrettGraham ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
-Original Message- Have a look with a 'scope probe around the ribbon note the difference in RXD TXD-induced spikes coming from the ribbon. Anybody have any idea why RS232-in-converted-to-TTL should be worse than TTL-converted-into-RS232-out? 73, VR2BrettGraham Brett, Are you asking about spikes on the TTL level side or the RS-232 level side? If it is on the TTL side, and the RS-232 side at the same time period has a voltage beyond the 'region of uncertainty' between +3 volts and -3 volts, one can only blame the receiving device, but I do believe the problem goes further than that. In the proper RS-232 world, the minimum levels (+/- 3 volts) are the minimum that can/should be expected at the receiver end, while the driver voltage can go anywhere greater than those values (up to +/-25 volts) and still meet the spec. The designer of the driving circuits have to make a decision about how much cable they want to drive and what the safety margin they want to use above the minimum. Some laptops are limited on the power supply end of things and may chose to drive the positive signal with only 5 volts but will usually drive the negative with something like -12 or -15 volts. They lose some noise immunity on the positive side by doing that, but since in RS-232 signalling the negative voltage is the logical 1 (or ON signal), they can usually get away with it unless the noise source puts extra negative going spikes on the cable. I would tend to believe that something has failed in Tom's laptop rather than thinking that it is a design flaw - yes, most laptops cannot drive the 200 ft. cables that used to be common in the RS-232 world, but that world was usually not driven by laptop serial ports anyway. In a typical home or small office setup, the 5 volt positive level still provides more tha a volt of noise imunity on the positive signalling level, and since the negative signalling level is driven to a -12 volt level, there is plenty of margin for noise on the level that will register a logical 1 at the receiving end. 73, Don W3FPR -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 6/11/2005 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] KIO2/KPA100 Serial Comm Problems
W3FPR asked: Are you asking about spikes on the TTL level side or the RS-232 level side? If it is on the TTL side, and the RS-232 side at the same time period has a voltage beyond the 'region of uncertainty' between +3 volts and -3 volts, one can only blame the receiving device, but I do believe the problem goes further than that. In the proper RS-232 world, the minimum levels (+/- 3 volts) are the minimum that can/should be expected at the receiver end, while the driver voltage can go anywhere greater than those values (up to +/-25 volts) and still meet the spec. The designer of the driving circuits have to make a decision about how much cable they want to drive and what the safety margin they want to use above the minimum. Some laptops are limited on the power supply end of things and may chose to drive the positive signal with only 5 volts but will usually drive the negative with something like -12 or -15 volts. They lose some noise immunity on the positive side by doing that, but since in RS-232 signalling the negative voltage is the logical 1 (or ON signal), they can usually get away with it unless the noise source puts extra negative going spikes on the cable. I would tend to believe that something has failed in Tom's laptop rather than thinking that it is a design flaw - yes, most laptops cannot drive the 200 ft. cables that used to be common in the RS-232 world, but that world was usually not driven by laptop serial ports anyway. In a typical home or small office setup, the 5 volt positive level still provides more tha a volt of noise imunity on the positive signalling level, and since the negative signalling level is driven to a -12 volt level, there is plenty of margin for noise on the level that will register a logical 1 at the receiving end. The spikes have nothing to do with N0SS's laptop - sorry for the misunderstanding. Tom's follow-up post reminded me of having looked at this a while ago. I hope N0SS has a dickie serial port it isn't indicative of ThinkPads in general (hard to get real serial ports on modern laptops hope one day to find another one with two all the other goodies one day - have some things to do that really can't be done any other way... will be keenly watching for any final post from Tom). The spikes I think are where the chirp (low level sound of cricket in both receive transmit audio - numerous reports here of it on receive) when a K2 is being talked to. Incoming data on KIO causes huge spikes with 'scope probe in the vicinity of level far greater than spikes seen when the K2 is sending data. Haven't tried breaking out that line shielding it, or doing something to clean up the power to the interface chip - not sure why 232TTL would cause this TTL232 wouldn't. 73, VR2BrettGraham ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
