Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
Carl Clawson wrote: 1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to the radio. This is problematic because no modern operating system has deterministic timing. You never know when the OS will decide to go do something else for a] I think you mean consumer operating system for PCs, but even that is not entirely true. Whilst MS-DOS, as long as you restrict the TSRs, behaves more like an I/O library than an operating system and therefore it easy to control the timing, there are special operating systems around, intended for embedded systems, which do have tightly controlled real time responses. Even Windows has real time priorities, that have absolute priority over normal programs, and there are real time extensions to Linux. On Linux, writing a custom device driver is also easy, as long as you are happy writing state machine type code. One of the key applications for domestic consumer Windows is multimedia and Windows has a special multi-media timers mode that gives it a timing resolution of 1ms. I'd suspect there are lot of people who would claim that they could detect a misplaced note. A lot of Linux systems also run the clock at 1kHz. If you are in the sort of single user single application environment that you get with MS-DOS, Linux allows you to busy idle and read the time to microsecond, or better accuracy. The remaining problems are interrupt latency and inappropriate hardware interfaces. Windows and Linux can overrun clock interrupts at 1kHz, particularly if you use IDE drives without enabling DMA. The solution is to be careful with how you configure device drivers and to avoid actively using problem drivers. By inappropriate devices, I particularly mean USB. Another possible own goal would be using programming languages that are designed for use by semi-skilled programmers in non-realtime environments. These can often go into a garbage collection phase, where they compact their internal memory usage, which can take some time. That tends to include all languages called Basic. .NET and Java also suffer from this problem, even though Java and C# tend to be associated with more skilled programmers. If you want good real time performance, you need to use the lower level languages that are common in open source software, but disliked by most programming managers, because they require more skilled staff. while, and you get choppy code if you're unlucky. You also need a circuit to key from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on serial, which is OK until you reboot your computer and it keys up your radio. Plus, AFAICT you can get paddle inputs only via a parallel port. (Seems like a serial port could take A lot more people can use a keyboard at over 40 wpm than can use a paddle at those speeds! Paddle input isn't going to be a priority. paddle input on DSR RTS, but I don't recall ever seeing that. Probably because you'd need to add in both + and - power supplies. The advantage of the parallel port is that you can set a pin to +5 V to power your paddle input circuit.) As it's not a priority, you wouldn't expect many choices. However, stealing supply voltages from RS232C outputs is no problem. -- David Woolley The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote: None of the three most commonly used contest logging programs support the KY command. All three authors/developer groups have investigated the KY command and rejected supporting it. The issues are: 1) KY is not universally supported - it is only useful with K2, K3 and some Kenwood transceivers. 2) once a message has been sent to the radio it is not possible to edit it (call corrections). 3) buffer management is very difficult - it is not possible for the logging program to know when a message has completed in order to implement timed delays (or repeating messages) with a known time between the end of the message and start of the repeat. Although 1) is true, I'm surprised 2) is a big deal for contesting, when you are only sending very short overs. In the K2, it is possible to abort the unsent text by sending a KY @; command. I'm not sure if Wayne has implenented this in the K3 yet. 3) is completely incorrect as far as the K2 and K3 goes. It is possible to poll the radio and find out if the buffer is full, part full or empty. In fact it is essential to do this as the K2 doesn't like being sent text its buffer doesn't have room for. - Julian, G4ILO K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392 G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-K3--Logging-programs-and-internal-keyer-tp17451428p17458853.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
1) There is no problem writing a Windows program with accurate timing to key your radio via a serial or parallel port, this is a common misconception. 2) Winkeyer is an excellent device which can be more closely controlled than driving a radio via the KY command, even Kenwood's TS-480. The KY command is OK and does work. I suggest 2) if your logging program of choice supports it. A quick touch of the paddles and you're in charge of the sending instead of the Winkeyer, also the Winkeyer has many configuration options such as Farnsworth. I don't send much CW but have programmed both options. Simon Brown, HB9DRV -- From: Carl Clawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one more serial command that has to be coded to go to the radio. Otherwise you either: [chop] ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one more serial command that has to be coded to go to the radio. None of the three most commonly used contest logging programs support the KY command. All three authors/developer groups have investigated the KY command and rejected supporting it. The issues are: 1) KY is not universally supported - it is only useful with K2, K3 and some Kenwood transceivers. 2) once a message has been sent to the radio it is not possible to edit it (call corrections). 3) buffer management is very difficult - it is not possible for the logging program to know when a message has completed in order to implement timed delays (or repeating messages) with a known time between the end of the message and start of the repeat. 2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig. Why spend money on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig already does! WinKey is by far the most flexible and programmer friendly solution available. It is universal in that it can be applied to any radio. It generates CW with very tight timing and it provides very good handles for the programmer to integrate it with his software (including buffer management, editing and status tools). 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Clawson Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:10 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one more serial command that has to be coded to go to the radio. Otherwise you either: 1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to the radio. This is problematic because no modern operating system has deterministic timing. You never know when the OS will decide to go do something else for a while, and you get choppy code if you're unlucky. You also need a circuit to key from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on serial, which is OK until you reboot your computer and it keys up your radio. Plus, AFAICT you can get paddle inputs only via a parallel port. (Seems like a serial port could take paddle input on DSR RTS, but I don't recall ever seeing that. Probably because you'd need to add in both + and - power supplies. The advantage of the parallel port is that you can set a pin to +5 V to power your paddle input circuit.) 2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig. Why spend money on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig already does! So, any support out there? I'm considering moving to a new logging program and hoping to mothball the special cables and lash-ups that I've been using, and get more consistent code too. Plus, I won't need to plug and unplug paddles and things when I work offline from the logging program. Thanks! 73, Carl WS7L ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
Carl, WinKeyer does something else. It takes ASCII from the computer and converts that to code. No program can do that very well if that program runs on a computer that has a Windoze operating system because Windows has its own priorities for interrupts. The logging programs did the conversion to cw nicely when the computers were running DOS. To interface with a Windows computer requires some hardware and software to be added. It could be internal to the transceiver of course if it were an offered feature, but most transceivers do not offer that. I do not yet have a K3, so I am not sure what it offers. My order went in December 27 and so far, no Katiegram for me. But I do have a WinKeyer for my TS-850 along with the built in keyer in the 850. Cookie, K5EWJ Co --- Carl Clawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one more serial command that has to be coded to go to the radio. Otherwise you either: 1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to the radio. This is problematic because no modern operating system has deterministic timing. You never know when the OS will decide to go do something else for a while, and you get choppy code if you're unlucky. You also need a circuit to key from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on serial, which is OK until you reboot your computer and it keys up your radio. Plus, AFAICT you can get paddle inputs only via a parallel port. (Seems like a serial port could take paddle input on DSR RTS, but I don't recall ever seeing that. Probably because you'd need to add in both + and - power supplies. The advantage of the parallel port is that you can set a pin to +5 V to power your paddle input circuit.) 2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig. Why spend money on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig already does! So, any support out there? I'm considering moving to a new logging program and hoping to mothball the special cables and lash-ups that I've been using, and get more consistent code too. Plus, I won't need to plug and unplug paddles and things when I work offline from the logging program. Thanks! 73, Carl WS7L No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008 8:56 AM ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
Choppy or interrupted CW is a common complaint with software keyers in logging progams. I have observed it myself. Maybe you can get around the timing issue in Windows by writing it into a device driver (is that what you're suggesting?) but apparently few people do it that way. -- Carl -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Brown (HB9DRV) Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 1:21 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer 1) There is no problem writing a Windows program with accurate timing to key your radio via a serial or parallel port, this is a common misconception. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008 8:56 AM ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
I've had several off-list responses about this telling me pretty much the same thing: The KY command that sends text to the internal keyer has been looked at and deemed insufficient to support the demands of high performance contest software. Too much latency on the serial bus, no way to sync up with message completion, no way to edit messages once they've gone down the bus. (Having dealt with a few RS232 buses in my day, I agree they can be a major pain in the anatomy when you need to operate a device in a fast, deterministic, reliable way.) Well, I don't mind buying an accessory if it improves performance but dang! I'd like to have all that hardware in one box! 73 thanks for all the answers, Carl WS7L No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008 8:56 AM ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
