Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

And it looks now like we are -way- past the OT posting limit.  :-) Let's wind 
down the 'Long Wire' thread now and give our other Elecraft list readers a rest 
from email overload.

Thread closed.

73,

Eric
Moderator etc.
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Jan 13, 2018, at 6:01 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> 
> I thought to add my two cents then I figured I ain't gonna smack this tar 
> baby.;-)
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Wes Stewart]

I thought to add my two cents then I figured I ain't gonna smack this tar 
baby.;-)

On 1/13/2018 1:57 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


"​Isn't Semantics fun?​"

True.  ;)

Well, I rarely get hung up on the terms people use as long as we all know what 
we mean when we call it whatever we are calling it. My problem with the term 
"counterpoise" as applied to an EFHW antenna is that it pretends that the 
extra length of wire is something other than a way to shift the feedpoint 
toward off-center instead of off-end.  In my opinion it's misleading in terms 
of how the thing actually functions.


Dave   AB7E


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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[David Gilbert]

"​Isn't Semantics fun?​"

True.  ;)

Well, I rarely get hung up on the terms people use as long as we all 
know what we mean when we call it whatever we are calling it.  My 
problem with the term "counterpoise" as applied to an EFHW antenna is 
that it pretends that the extra length of wire is something other than a 
way to shift the feedpoint toward off-center instead of off-end.  In my 
opinion it's misleading in terms of how the thing actually functions.


Dave   AB7E


On 1/13/2018 12:45 PM, Don Sanders wrote:


A
​ Rose by any other name is still a Rose.​
​Isn't Semantics fun?​


On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 1:37 PM, David Gilbert 
> wrote:




Calling it a counterpoise is a misnomer.

Dave   AB7E







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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Don Sanders]

A
​ Rose by any other name is still a Rose.​
​Isn't Semantics fun?​


On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 1:37 PM, David Gilbert 
wrote:

>
>
> Calling it a counterpoise is a misnomer.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[David Gilbert]

You are both perpetuating the confusion here by pretending that these 
are two different forms of antenna.


Of course the "counterpoise" will radiate.  It will radiate energy 
proportional to the current in it, and the longer its length the higher 
the current will be.  That's EXACTLY the same case as for an off-center 
fed antenna ... they are the same thing.  If you drop the end of an 
off-center fed dipole too close to the ground it will waste energy in 
the form of ground losses as well.


Calling it a counterpoise is a misnomer.

Dave   AB7E



On 1/13/2018 9:41 AM, K9MA wrote:

On 1/13/2018 07:44, Don Wilhelm wrote:
All information I have seen says that the counterpoise needed for an 
EFHW is 0.05 wavelength - at 40 meters, that is about 3.5 feet.


If you make it longer than that, it becomes an offset center fed 
antenna, longer than a halfwave, in other words, it is a random 
length wire.  Both the half wavelength wire and the counterpoise wire 
will radiate. 


True, and the longer the counterpoise, the more it will radiate, right 
into the ground if it's just lying on the ground, so there's really no 
point in a longer counterpoise for the EFHW.


One extreme case is the center-fed full wave, or "two half waves in 
phase".  It has the high feedpoint impedance of the EFHW (actually 
about double) and has a pattern much like a dipole, but sharper.  It 
has a couple dB of gain over a dipole broadside but, of course, less 
gain in other directions.


73,

Scott K9MA



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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Don Wilhelm]

I once heard LB Cebik give a 'balloon' analogy of directional or gain 
antennas.
He said the radiation pattern is like a balloon - you have to squeeze it 
somewhere to get it to expand in another direction.  There is no overall 
gain, it just directs the radiation in one or more directions at the 
expense of other directions.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/13/2018 11:41 AM, K9MA wrote:


One extreme case is the center-fed full wave, or "two half waves in 
phase".  It has the high feedpoint impedance of the EFHW (actually about 
double) and has a pattern much like a dipole, but sharper.  It has a 
couple dB of gain over a dipole broadside but, of course, less gain in 
other directions.

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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[K9MA]

On 1/13/2018 07:44, Don Wilhelm wrote:
All information I have seen says that the counterpoise needed for an 
EFHW is 0.05 wavelength - at 40 meters, that is about 3.5 feet.


If you make it longer than that, it becomes an offset center fed 
antenna, longer than a halfwave, in other words, it is a random length 
wire.  Both the half wavelength wire and the counterpoise wire will 
radiate. 


True, and the longer the counterpoise, the more it will radiate, right 
into the ground if it's just lying on the ground, so there's really no 
point in a longer counterpoise for the EFHW.


One extreme case is the center-fed full wave, or "two half waves in 
phase".  It has the high feedpoint impedance of the EFHW (actually about 
double) and has a pattern much like a dipole, but sharper.  It has a 
couple dB of gain over a dipole broadside but, of course, less gain in 
other directions.


73,

Scott K9MA

--
Scott  K9MA

k...@sdellington.us

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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Don Wilhelm]

Dave,

All information I have seen says that the counterpoise needed for an 
EFHW is 0.05 wavelength - at 40 meters, that is about 3.5 feet.


If you make it longer than that, it becomes an offset center fed 
antenna, longer than a halfwave, in other words, it is a random length 
wire.  Both the half wavelength wire and the counterpoise wire will radiate.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/12/2018 7:43 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
Well, since you brought up EFHW there is a relevant comment I've wanted 
to make for a while.


An EFHW with a counterpoise wire (which everyone seems to claim is 
important to have) is basically just an extreme version of an off-center 
fed dipole.  A half wave dipole has its lowest impedance at the center, 
where the current is high and the voltage is low.  As you move out away 
from the center the current decreases and the voltage increases, which 
is equivalent to saying that the impedance increases.  As you get to the 
end of the wire the current obviously goes to near zero except for 
capacitive currents while the voltage goes very high ... meaning high 
impedance.  The "counterpoise" for an EFHW is merely an extension that 
puts the feedpoint back toward the center where the impedance isn't 
quite as high.  And as with any dipole, it isn't critical how that 
"counterpoise" is physically arrayed because the current there is small 
so it doesn't affect the pattern much ... just as is the case with a 
dipole with drooping ends.


I think if everyone viewed EFHW antennas as off-center-fed dipoles there 
would be a lot less confusion about how they work. 

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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[David Gilbert]

Well, since you brought up EFHW there is a relevant comment I've wanted 
to make for a while.


An EFHW with a counterpoise wire (which everyone seems to claim is 
important to have) is basically just an extreme version of an off-center 
fed dipole.  A half wave dipole has its lowest impedance at the center, 
where the current is high and the voltage is low.  As you move out away 
from the center the current decreases and the voltage increases, which 
is equivalent to saying that the impedance increases.  As you get to the 
end of the wire the current obviously goes to near zero except for 
capacitive currents while the voltage goes very high ... meaning high 
impedance.  The "counterpoise" for an EFHW is merely an extension that 
puts the feedpoint back toward the center where the impedance isn't 
quite as high.  And as with any dipole, it isn't critical how that 
"counterpoise" is physically arrayed because the current there is small 
so it doesn't affect the pattern much ... just as is the case with a 
dipole with drooping ends.


I think if everyone viewed EFHW antennas as off-center-fed dipoles there 
would be a lot less confusion about how they work.  Just as with an 
off-center fed dipole, an EFHW of the right length would have low 
reactance and high impedance that could be properly matched with the 
right transformer, and you'd need common mode chokes for both to keep 
currents off the shield of the feedline.  The two antennas are different 
purely in terms, not in physical reality or in the radiation patterns 
they produce.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 1/12/2018 4:33 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:

Ron, love your comment.  I use EFHW and it is amazing the confusion over how 
they work.  Got to have a great transformer and a chosen antenna length and 
stick to it and perhaps a multiple that fits.  My 160 EFHW is made for 1.900 
and works well at 3.800 in certain directions on either band.  I have do use a 
remote tuner for slight deviations and also compare two different dipoles to 
pick the best one to use.  The 160 is a c shaped set in the trees.  Insulated 
wire.  Now to get it isolated with insulators. Next spring... too much cold 
weather and snow to deal with.  :-)

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:11 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

A mistaken idea that many Hams get is that a wire antenna has no radiation in the 
"nulls". For example, a half-wave wire is often thought of as having no energy 
radiated off of its ends. There is LESS off the ends, but a real-world wire has some 
radiation in ALL directions as Dave notes. It's just stronger radiation in some 
directions.

A real long wire (many wavelengths) is easy to match since the longer a wire is, the smaller the 
impedance excursions across the RF spectrum. The hardest to match are wires a half wavelength (or 
less) long. However, most compact ATUs are limited in matching range based on simple physics. Their 
small size cannot tolerate the huge RF currents and voltages frequently encountered even at 
moderate power levels. There's a good reason why the old time "antenna tuners" (matching 
networks) were so huge. It's just a matter of basic physics. But today most of us use antennas that 
offer an feed point impedance limited to the range our ultra-fast, super-smart "automatic 
antenna tuners" can handle.

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:41 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE


There is only a fixed amount of total energy contained in all the lobes of an 
antenna.  You almost definitely did get lots of lobes ... but you also got lots 
of nulls that exactly offset all those lobes.  You just never heard the the 
hams that were in those nulls and they never heard you.   Whatever you gain in 
one or more directions is sacrificed in one one or more other directions.  This 
is basic physics.

More lobes is not necessarily better.  In fact, taken to the extreme it is self 
defeating because a very large number of lobes (assuming they were somehow all 
of equal strength as you stated) begins to approximate a unidirectional antenna 
with no azimuth gain in any direction.

Just for grins I modeled your 700 foot antenna in EZNEC+ and on 20m it gave a 
maximum gain of about 9 dbi in a fairly narrow lobe at 16 degree elevation in 
both directions along the axis of the wire.  It also gave a total of 36 other 
sharply narrow lobes arrayed symmetrically in all other directions, each with a 
gain of about 6 dbi.  Between each lobe was a deep null of around minus 10 dbi. 
This was all at the same 16 degree elevation angle

Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[David Gilbert]

All true.  In fact, I was going to mention that for a real world antenna 
there is usually some smoothing between lobes and nulls, especially when 
there are lots of them involved.  I left that out because I didn't want 
to go overboard on my comments.


Another facet is that for any particular azimuth angle that has a null 
at one elevation there might be a lobe at a different elevation angle.  
3D plots of some antennas look very weird.  I think a lot of yagis look 
like that off the back ... deep null at a low angle but decent energy at 
a higher angle.  I live in Arizona and if I'm running the East Coast in 
CQWPX I can still easily work California off the back.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 1/12/2018 3:11 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

A mistaken idea that many Hams get is that a wire antenna has no radiation in the 
"nulls". For example, a half-wave wire is often thought of as having no energy 
radiated off of its ends. There is LESS off the ends, but a real-world wire has some 
radiation in ALL directions as Dave notes. It's just stronger radiation in some 
directions.

A real long wire (many wavelengths) is easy to match since the longer a wire is, the smaller the 
impedance excursions across the RF spectrum. The hardest to match are wires a half wavelength (or 
less) long. However, most compact ATUs are limited in matching range based on simple physics. Their 
small size cannot tolerate the huge RF currents and voltages frequently encountered even at 
moderate power levels. There's a good reason why the old time "antenna tuners" (matching 
networks) were so huge. It's just a matter of basic physics. But today most of us use antennas that 
offer an feed point impedance limited to the range our ultra-fast, super-smart "automatic 
antenna tuners" can handle.

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:41 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE


There is only a fixed amount of total energy contained in all the lobes of an 
antenna.  You almost definitely did get lots of lobes ... but you also got lots 
of nulls that exactly offset all those lobes.  You just never heard the the 
hams that were in those nulls and they never heard you.   Whatever you gain in 
one or more directions is sacrificed in one one or more other directions.  This 
is basic physics.

More lobes is not necessarily better.  In fact, taken to the extreme it is self 
defeating because a very large number of lobes (assuming they were somehow all 
of equal strength as you stated) begins to approximate a unidirectional antenna 
with no azimuth gain in any direction.

Just for grins I modeled your 700 foot antenna in EZNEC+ and on 20m it gave a 
maximum gain of about 9 dbi in a fairly narrow lobe at 16 degree elevation in 
both directions along the axis of the wire.  It also gave a total of 36 other 
sharply narrow lobes arrayed symmetrically in all other directions, each with a 
gain of about 6 dbi.  Between each lobe was a deep null of around minus 10 dbi. 
This was all at the same 16 degree elevation angle ... there were literally too 
many lobes to count on the 3D pattern, with lots of lobes and nulls at every 
azimuth and elevation angle.

A simple dipole at the same 40 foot height would have given similar gain with a 
much broader lobe (both azimuth and elevation) in the two main directions, but 
of course without the multiple smaller side lobes. Three poles and two 
perpendicular dipoles would have given better overall single band results ... 
the only advantage of the long wire being that it gives a similar pattern along 
with similarly ugly match on multiple bands.

Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Bill Johnson]

Ron, love your comment.  I use EFHW and it is amazing the confusion over how 
they work.  Got to have a great transformer and a chosen antenna length and 
stick to it and perhaps a multiple that fits.  My 160 EFHW is made for 1.900 
and works well at 3.800 in certain directions on either band.  I have do use a 
remote tuner for slight deviations and also compare two different dipoles to 
pick the best one to use.  The 160 is a c shaped set in the trees.  Insulated 
wire.  Now to get it isolated with insulators. Next spring... too much cold 
weather and snow to deal with.  :-)

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:11 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

A mistaken idea that many Hams get is that a wire antenna has no radiation in 
the "nulls". For example, a half-wave wire is often thought of as having no 
energy radiated off of its ends. There is LESS off the ends, but a real-world 
wire has some radiation in ALL directions as Dave notes. It's just stronger 
radiation in some directions. 

A real long wire (many wavelengths) is easy to match since the longer a wire 
is, the smaller the impedance excursions across the RF spectrum. The hardest to 
match are wires a half wavelength (or less) long. However, most compact ATUs 
are limited in matching range based on simple physics. Their small size cannot 
tolerate the huge RF currents and voltages frequently encountered even at 
moderate power levels. There's a good reason why the old time "antenna tuners" 
(matching networks) were so huge. It's just a matter of basic physics. But 
today most of us use antennas that offer an feed point impedance limited to the 
range our ultra-fast, super-smart "automatic antenna tuners" can handle. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:41 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE


There is only a fixed amount of total energy contained in all the lobes of an 
antenna.  You almost definitely did get lots of lobes ... but you also got lots 
of nulls that exactly offset all those lobes.  You just never heard the the 
hams that were in those nulls and they never heard you.   Whatever you gain in 
one or more directions is sacrificed in one one or more other directions.  This 
is basic physics.

More lobes is not necessarily better.  In fact, taken to the extreme it is self 
defeating because a very large number of lobes (assuming they were somehow all 
of equal strength as you stated) begins to approximate a unidirectional antenna 
with no azimuth gain in any direction.

Just for grins I modeled your 700 foot antenna in EZNEC+ and on 20m it gave a 
maximum gain of about 9 dbi in a fairly narrow lobe at 16 degree elevation in 
both directions along the axis of the wire.  It also gave a total of 36 other 
sharply narrow lobes arrayed symmetrically in all other directions, each with a 
gain of about 6 dbi.  Between each lobe was a deep null of around minus 10 dbi. 
This was all at the same 16 degree elevation angle ... there were literally too 
many lobes to count on the 3D pattern, with lots of lobes and nulls at every 
azimuth and elevation angle.

A simple dipole at the same 40 foot height would have given similar gain with a 
much broader lobe (both azimuth and elevation) in the two main directions, but 
of course without the multiple smaller side lobes. Three poles and two 
perpendicular dipoles would have given better overall single band results ... 
the only advantage of the long wire being that it gives a similar pattern along 
with similarly ugly match on multiple bands.

Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

A mistaken idea that many Hams get is that a wire antenna has no radiation in 
the "nulls". For example, a half-wave wire is often thought of as having no 
energy radiated off of its ends. There is LESS off the ends, but a real-world 
wire has some radiation in ALL directions as Dave notes. It's just stronger 
radiation in some directions. 

A real long wire (many wavelengths) is easy to match since the longer a wire 
is, the smaller the impedance excursions across the RF spectrum. The hardest to 
match are wires a half wavelength (or less) long. However, most compact ATUs 
are limited in matching range based on simple physics. Their small size cannot 
tolerate the huge RF currents and voltages frequently encountered even at 
moderate power levels. There's a good reason why the old time "antenna tuners" 
(matching networks) were so huge. It's just a matter of basic physics. But 
today most of us use antennas that offer an feed point impedance limited to the 
range our ultra-fast, super-smart "automatic antenna tuners" can handle. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:41 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE


There is only a fixed amount of total energy contained in all the lobes of an 
antenna.  You almost definitely did get lots of lobes ... but you also got lots 
of nulls that exactly offset all those lobes.  You just never heard the the 
hams that were in those nulls and they never heard you.   Whatever you gain in 
one or more directions is sacrificed in one one or more other directions.  This 
is basic physics.

More lobes is not necessarily better.  In fact, taken to the extreme it is self 
defeating because a very large number of lobes (assuming they were somehow all 
of equal strength as you stated) begins to approximate a unidirectional antenna 
with no azimuth gain in any direction.

Just for grins I modeled your 700 foot antenna in EZNEC+ and on 20m it gave a 
maximum gain of about 9 dbi in a fairly narrow lobe at 16 degree elevation in 
both directions along the axis of the wire.  It also gave a total of 36 other 
sharply narrow lobes arrayed symmetrically in all other directions, each with a 
gain of about 6 dbi.  Between each lobe was a deep null of around minus 10 dbi. 
This was all at the same 16 degree elevation angle ... there were literally too 
many lobes to count on the 3D pattern, with lots of lobes and nulls at every 
azimuth and elevation angle.

A simple dipole at the same 40 foot height would have given similar gain with a 
much broader lobe (both azimuth and elevation) in the two main directions, but 
of course without the multiple smaller side lobes. Three poles and two 
perpendicular dipoles would have given better overall single band results ... 
the only advantage of the long wire being that it gives a similar pattern along 
with similarly ugly match on multiple bands.

Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Fred Jensen]

Well, they never wandered out to Bowman Flats on Old Airport Road.  
Apparently, I could have used them.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/12/2018 11:37 AM, Dennis Moore wrote:
More common than you think :-)  There are eight of them not far from 
my place.


http://www.pawsweb.org/

Dennis NJ6G

On 1/12/2018 11:32, Fred Jensen wrote:
This could account for why my 2 wavelength Beverage never seemed to 
perform well on 80 when we lived in Auburn CA.  Elephants are very 
uncommon in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW 


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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Fred Jensen]

Well, bummer!  EZNEC4+ won't model a conductor 52,800 feet long. :-(

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/12/2018 11:34 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:

I wintered over at Byrd Station in 67-68.  The "Long Wire" VLF station was, as I 
remember, about 11 miles away from the main Byrd station to get away from noise sources for the 
research that was being done.  Several of us at Byrd walked out there one day (although I guess it 
was night, seeing as how nights were 4 months long).  I'm pretty sure the 10 mile antenna was for 
receiving but KC4AAD might have used it for transmitting.  My own station, KC4USM, used a 700' long 
vee beam, on the ice.  "Ground" was something like 7000' below, 2000' below sea level.

Cheers and 73,

Fred KE7X OAE




From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> on behalf 
of brian <als...@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:35 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

Just for kicks, I modeled it with a 1/4 wave counter poise up 12' up
from ground. 14 MHz.

Unfortunately where ground is a question.  What the parameters for
"ground" is a good question.  Snow doesn't look like earth.

Anyhow the impedance came out 11470 ohms +j 17880.
The horizontal antenna pattern was along the axis with a beam width of
3.8 degrees and a gain of almost 15 db

The vertical pattern peaked at 3 degrees and straight up 5 dB down.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 1/12/2018 16:18 PM, Mal Speer wrote:

I don't know much about antennas, but in the late 60s or early 70s I worked
a station on 20 meters with a 10 mile long (long wire antenna).

That was KC4AAD in Antarctica. I don't have the QSL card I got back then,
but was a picture of part of the antenna. I know it was 20 meters, because I
only had a 20 meter antenna. A 3El wide spaced monobander up about 35 feet.

Mal WA2TWA







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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Fred Jensen]

For transmitting, that 10-mile long conductor would be close to an 
end-fed full-wave, and perhaps a flame-thrower, for SAQ [17 KHz].  On 20 
meters, it would be an end-fed 805 wavelength conductor [wonder how that 
would model in EZNEC?], all the power dissipated in the first few 
hundred meters of the conductor, and most of the conductor in the far, 
far, far field of the antenna that is actually radiating.


Actually, I have the urge to waste a little time, QRX, I'll try it.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/12/2018 11:34 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:

I wintered over at Byrd Station in 67-68.  The "Long Wire" VLF station was, as I 
remember, about 11 miles away from the main Byrd station to get away from noise sources for the 
research that was being done.  Several of us at Byrd walked out there one day (although I guess it 
was night, seeing as how nights were 4 months long).  I'm pretty sure the 10 mile antenna was for 
receiving but KC4AAD might have used it for transmitting.  My own station, KC4USM, used a 700' long 
vee beam, on the ice.  "Ground" was something like 7000' below, 2000' below sea level.

Cheers and 73,

Fred KE7X OAE



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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Dennis Moore]

More common than you think :-)  There are eight of them not far from my 
place.


http://www.pawsweb.org/

Dennis NJ6G

On 1/12/2018 11:32, Fred Jensen wrote:
This could account for why my 2 wavelength Beverage never seemed to 
perform well on 80 when we lived in Auburn CA.  Elephants are very 
uncommon in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW 


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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Cady, Fred]

I wintered over at Byrd Station in 67-68.  The "Long Wire" VLF station was, as 
I remember, about 11 miles away from the main Byrd station to get away from 
noise sources for the research that was being done.  Several of us at Byrd 
walked out there one day (although I guess it was night, seeing as how nights 
were 4 months long).  I'm pretty sure the 10 mile antenna was for receiving but 
KC4AAD might have used it for transmitting.  My own station, KC4USM, used a 
700' long vee beam, on the ice.  "Ground" was something like 7000' below, 2000' 
below sea level.

Cheers and 73,

Fred KE7X OAE




From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> on 
behalf of brian <als...@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:35 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

Just for kicks, I modeled it with a 1/4 wave counter poise up 12' up
from ground. 14 MHz.

Unfortunately where ground is a question.  What the parameters for
"ground" is a good question.  Snow doesn't look like earth.

Anyhow the impedance came out 11470 ohms +j 17880.
The horizontal antenna pattern was along the axis with a beam width of
3.8 degrees and a gain of almost 15 db

The vertical pattern peaked at 3 degrees and straight up 5 dB down.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 1/12/2018 16:18 PM, Mal Speer wrote:
> I don't know much about antennas, but in the late 60s or early 70s I worked
> a station on 20 meters with a 10 mile long (long wire antenna).
>
> That was KC4AAD in Antarctica. I don't have the QSL card I got back then,
> but was a picture of part of the antenna. I know it was 20 meters, because I
> only had a 20 meter antenna. A 3El wide spaced monobander up about 35 feet.
>
> Mal WA2TWA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to als...@comcast.net
>
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> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Fred Jensen]

This could account for why my 2 wavelength Beverage never seemed to 
perform well on 80 when we lived in Auburn CA.  Elephants are very 
uncommon in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/11/2018 8:41 PM, William Levy wrote:

Best of all the elephants walked around my old Army Signal Corp 40 foot
poles bought new from Fair Radio Sales. That's right. The Elephants walked
around the poles. The sag in the middle was pretty deep but still taller
than an Elephant.

The longer the wire the more forward the gain. The better the lobes.
I never used a better wire and if I had to do it again I would do it again.

73 all, Bill

The science is simple. The more wire hanging out the more signal radiating.



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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[brian]

Just for kicks, I modeled it with a 1/4 wave counter poise up 12' up 
from ground. 14 MHz.


Unfortunately where ground is a question.  What the parameters for 
"ground" is a good question.  Snow doesn't look like earth.


Anyhow the impedance came out 11470 ohms +j 17880.
The horizontal antenna pattern was along the axis with a beam width of 
3.8 degrees and a gain of almost 15 db


The vertical pattern peaked at 3 degrees and straight up 5 dB down.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 1/12/2018 16:18 PM, Mal Speer wrote:

I don't know much about antennas, but in the late 60s or early 70s I worked
a station on 20 meters with a 10 mile long (long wire antenna).

That was KC4AAD in Antarctica. I don't have the QSL card I got back then,
but was a picture of part of the antenna. I know it was 20 meters, because I
only had a 20 meter antenna. A 3El wide spaced monobander up about 35 feet.

Mal WA2TWA







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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[brian]

Bill,

The situation you had was essentially a point to point communications 
setup. It worked well for you. Commercial installations long ago used 
long wire antennas (including rhombics) pointed in specific directions 
to assure good point to point communications.  It isn't a "work all 
directions" setup.  The posting given by another reporting EZNEC results 
is a true description of where the energy goes with a many wavelength 
long wire.


This is not to say you can't work other directions.  With appropriate 
propagation and with your DX prefix, people would be workable off the 
sides.


I think this tread started out with somebody wanting to have a portable 
antenna for use in many locations.  It is pretty clear that a point to 
point antenna would not be appropriate for his application.  Something 
more omnidirectional would be.


73 de Brian/K3KO


On 1/12/2018 4:41 AM, William Levy wrote:

Let me tell you what I observed with 700 feet of long wire.

QSB disappeared. What faded on one end was rocketing in on the other end.

I pointed the antenna at the USA from Kenya. There was nobody in the USA
that could not hear me. I ran 100 watts.

I had lobes going in every direction. I had huge gain forward. Check the
ARRL antenna book. It worked off the end and the front and the side.

It was the best wire antenna I ever used.

Best of all the elephants walked around my old Army Signal Corp 40 foot
poles bought new from Fair Radio Sales. That's right. The Elephants walked
around the poles. The sag in the middle was pretty deep but still taller
than an Elephant.

The longer the wire the more forward the gain. The better the lobes.
I never used a better wire and if I had to do it again I would do it again.

73 all, Bill

The science is simple. The more wire hanging out the more signal radiating.
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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[David Gilbert]

There is only a fixed amount of total energy contained in all the lobes 
of an antenna.  You almost definitely did get lots of lobes ... but you 
also got lots of nulls that exactly offset all those lobes.  You just 
never heard the the hams that were in those nulls and they never heard 
you.   Whatever you gain in one or more directions is sacrificed in one 
one or more other directions.  This is basic physics.


More lobes is not necessarily better.  In fact, taken to the extreme it 
is self defeating because a very large number of lobes (assuming they 
were somehow all of equal strength as you stated) begins to approximate 
a unidirectional antenna with no azimuth gain in any direction.


Just for grins I modeled your 700 foot antenna in EZNEC+ and on 20m it 
gave a maximum gain of about 9 dbi in a fairly narrow lobe at 16 degree 
elevation in both directions along the axis of the wire.  It also gave a 
total of 36 other sharply narrow lobes arrayed symmetrically in all 
other directions, each with a gain of about 6 dbi.  Between each lobe 
was a deep null of around minus 10 dbi. This was all at the same 16 
degree elevation angle ... there were literally too many lobes to count 
on the 3D pattern, with lots of lobes and nulls at every azimuth and 
elevation angle.


A simple dipole at the same 40 foot height would have given similar gain 
with a much broader lobe (both azimuth and elevation) in the two main 
directions, but of course without the multiple smaller side lobes.  
Three poles and two perpendicular dipoles would have given better 
overall single band results ... the only advantage of the long wire 
being that it gives a similar pattern along with similarly ugly match on 
multiple bands.


Dave   AB7E


On 1/11/2018 9:41 PM, William Levy wrote:

Let me tell you what I observed with 700 feet of long wire.

QSB disappeared. What faded on one end was rocketing in on the other end.

I pointed the antenna at the USA from Kenya. There was nobody in the USA
that could not hear me. I ran 100 watts.

I had lobes going in every direction. I had huge gain forward. Check the
ARRL antenna book. It worked off the end and the front and the side.

It was the best wire antenna I ever used.

Best of all the elephants walked around my old Army Signal Corp 40 foot
poles bought new from Fair Radio Sales. That's right. The Elephants walked
around the poles. The sag in the middle was pretty deep but still taller
than an Elephant.

The longer the wire the more forward the gain. The better the lobes.
I never used a better wire and if I had to do it again I would do it again.

73 all, Bill

The science is simple. The more wire hanging out the more signal radiating.
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Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas MORE

[Wes Stewart]

As they say in real estate, location, location, location.


On 1/11/2018 9:41 PM, William Levy wrote:

I pointed the antenna at the USA from Kenya. There was nobody in the USA
that could not hear me.


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