Re: [Elecraft] QRP and contesting

[Dave New, N8SBE]

On 2022-11-10 21:21, Bill Lederer wrote:

That is pretty impressive.

When I was first a ham, one of the locals was W7QYA, Flo, a school 
teacher
not far away. I had managed to crank my speed up to 40 (with some 
struggle)

but she said that was painfully slow for her. Her nominal speed was 65
wpm.  I have yet to get much above 40.


On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 12:47 PM Wayne Burdick  
wrote:



Funny story Last Field Day my son and a friend of his went camping
with our group. Neither of them are CW operators (yet), but they did 
know
the alphabet. They borrowed a MCU-controlled code-practice generator 
from
another op and were competing to see who could copy single letters at 
the

fastest rate.

When they got stuck at around 20 WPM, I said, "how fast does that 
thing
go?" It apparently would go much, much higher, into Morse nosebleed 
range.


Just for fun, I asked them to set it up to generate random English 
text at
45 WPM. I decoded enough of it to convince them that this code speed 
was in

my head-copy range. Then they started bumping it up another 5 WPM at a
time--a challenge! I was in some sort of zone that day. Maybe it was 
the
sunshine; maybe the idyllic sound of blue jays; maybe the 4-pack of 
White
Claw I'd scored at the liquor store. In the end I managed to copy 
several
words at 70 WPM. I'll never know if they were inspired or demoralized. 
They

shook their heads and went off on a 5 mile hike.

Wayne
N6KR



Reminds me of an op I knew that could copy RTTY in his head.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and contesting

[Bill Lederer]

That is pretty impressive.

When I was first a ham, one of the locals was W7QYA, Flo, a school teacher
not far away. I had managed to crank my speed up to 40 (with some struggle)
but she said that was painfully slow for her. Her nominal speed was 65
wpm.  I have yet to get much above 40.


On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 12:47 PM Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> Funny story Last Field Day my son and a friend of his went camping
> with our group. Neither of them are CW operators (yet), but they did know
> the alphabet. They borrowed a MCU-controlled code-practice generator from
> another op and were competing to see who could copy single letters at the
> fastest rate.
>
> When they got stuck at around 20 WPM, I said, "how fast does that thing
> go?" It apparently would go much, much higher, into Morse nosebleed range.
>
> Just for fun, I asked them to set it up to generate random English text at
> 45 WPM. I decoded enough of it to convince them that this code speed was in
> my head-copy range. Then they started bumping it up another 5 WPM at a
> time--a challenge! I was in some sort of zone that day. Maybe it was the
> sunshine; maybe the idyllic sound of blue jays; maybe the 4-pack of White
> Claw I'd scored at the liquor store. In the end I managed to copy several
> words at 70 WPM. I'll never know if they were inspired or demoralized. They
> shook their heads and went off on a 5 mile hike.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Alan Geller 
> wrote:
> >
> > Yea Wayne, thats the terrific Elecraft attitude that keeps your customer
> base strong and loyal.
> > Its called, “ lets all have fun and learn something” Hooray for the
> serious high speed ops, a
> > Lot of ex Navy guys, but its pretty easy to spot the slow lane and ease
> back into the fast lane.
> >
> > Happy Veterans Day youse guys….K6ADG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm in this group. Casual contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and
> almost always logging by hand.
> >
> > I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there who approach
> this with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of ability
> -- that next QSO.
>
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-- 
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and contesting

[Edward Tanton]

Wow!! Awesome post. Thanks for sharing this. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Wayne Burdick  Date: 
11/10/22  1:46 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Alan Geller  Cc: 
Elecraft Reflector  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP and 
contesting Funny story Last Field Day my son and a friend of his went 
camping with our group. Neither of them are CW operators (yet), but they did 
know the alphabet. They borrowed a MCU-controlled code-practice generator from 
another op and were competing to see who could copy single letters at the 
fastest rate. When they got stuck at around 20 WPM, I said, "how fast does that 
thing go?" It apparently would go much, much higher, into Morse nosebleed 
range. Just for fun, I asked them to set it up to generate random English text 
at 45 WPM. I decoded enough of it to convince them that this code speed was in 
my head-copy range. Then they started bumping it up another 5 WPM at a time--a 
challenge! I was in some sort of zone that day. Maybe it was the sunshine; 
maybe the idyllic sound of blue jays; maybe the 4-pack of White Claw I'd scored 
at the liquor store. In the end I managed to copy several words at 70 WPM. I'll 
never know if they were inspired or demoralized. They shook their heads and 
went off on a 5 mile hike.WayneN6KR> On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Alan Geller 
 wrote:> > Yea Wayne, thats the terrific Elecraft 
attitude that keeps your customer base strong and loyal. > Its called, “ lets 
all have fun and learn something” Hooray for the serious high speed ops, a > 
Lot of ex Navy guys, but its pretty easy to spot the slow lane and ease back 
into the fast lane.> > Happy Veterans Day youse guys….K6ADG> > > > > > I'm in 
this group. Casual contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and almost always 
logging by hand.> > I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there 
who approach this with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of 
ability -- that next 
QSO.__Elecraft 
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and contesting

[Wayne Burdick]

Funny story Last Field Day my son and a friend of his went camping with our 
group. Neither of them are CW operators (yet), but they did know the alphabet. 
They borrowed a MCU-controlled code-practice generator from another op and were 
competing to see who could copy single letters at the fastest rate. 

When they got stuck at around 20 WPM, I said, "how fast does that thing go?" It 
apparently would go much, much higher, into Morse nosebleed range. 

Just for fun, I asked them to set it up to generate random English text at 45 
WPM. I decoded enough of it to convince them that this code speed was in my 
head-copy range. Then they started bumping it up another 5 WPM at a time--a 
challenge! I was in some sort of zone that day. Maybe it was the sunshine; 
maybe the idyllic sound of blue jays; maybe the 4-pack of White Claw I'd scored 
at the liquor store. In the end I managed to copy several words at 70 WPM. I'll 
never know if they were inspired or demoralized. They shook their heads and 
went off on a 5 mile hike.

Wayne
N6KR


> On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Alan Geller  wrote:
> 
> Yea Wayne, thats the terrific Elecraft attitude that keeps your customer base 
> strong and loyal. 
> Its called, “ lets all have fun and learn something” Hooray for the serious 
> high speed ops, a 
> Lot of ex Navy guys, but its pretty easy to spot the slow lane and ease back 
> into the fast lane.
> 
> Happy Veterans Day youse guys….K6ADG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in this group. Casual contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and 
> almost always logging by hand.
> 
> I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there who approach this 
> with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of ability -- that 
> next QSO.

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Rocco Conte]

Jim,

 I can't argue with that logic, I stand corrected!

73, Rocco - WU2M

On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:02 PM Jim Brown  wrote:

> On 11/10/2022 8:14 AM, Rocco Conte wrote:
> > No offence guys but shouldn't this be on a contest reflector and not the
> > Elecraft reflector?
>
> No, the folks on that reflector know this stuff. :) It's the casual
> contesters who don't.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Jim Brown]

On 11/10/2022 8:14 AM, Rocco Conte wrote:

No offence guys but shouldn't this be on a contest reflector and not the
Elecraft reflector?


No, the folks on that reflector know this stuff. :) It's the casual 
contesters who don't.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Rocco Conte]

No offence guys but shouldn't this be on a contest reflector and not the
Elecraft reflector?


On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 6:49 PM a**@sbcglobal 
wrote:

> By the way, Jim, in case you were wondering, you sounded absolutely superb
> here in KY. And you were not one of the offending Big Guns. I mean, yes,
> you’re a Big Gun but no, I didn’t have you in mind during my rant. You know
> what I mean. :^)
>
> Al W6LX/4
>
> > On Nov 9, 2022, at 6:
> > Great advice, Al.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
>
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

Definitely agree. I regularly operate in the CWops CWT activity at 
0300z, which is 0500 local time for me in the winter. I am limited at 
that time to 40m (I don't have an antenna for 80/160 and the higher 
bands are deader than a doornail).


The majority of my contacts at that hour are with stations in North 
America. I usually S because I am not loud enough there to hold a 
frequency (at least at the beginning). I find that the number of times 
my call is copied incorrectly by the runner goes up rapidly when I send 
at more than about 28 WPM.


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 10/11/2022 5:06, David Gilbert wrote:


In the presences of a lot of background noise (as on 160m) slower speeds 
can sometimes improve readability.  Your ear/brain benefits from being 
able to integrate the tone over the noise.  Some years ago I did some 
experiments with that here:


http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html   (toward the end of the page)

73,
Dave   Ab7E

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[David Gilbert]

In the presences of a lot of background noise (as on 160m) slower speeds 
can sometimes improve readability.  Your ear/brain benefits from being 
able to integrate the tone over the noise.  Some years ago I did some 
experiments with that here:


http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html   (toward the end of the page)

73,
Dave   Ab7E





On 11/9/2022 6:56 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

I generally enjoy the ARRL 160m 'test as it is typically sub 30
WPM.

73, Nate, N0NB



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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2022 09 Nov 17:32 -0600, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 11/9/2022 3:18 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> > Al, if you called CQ at 30WPM and they answered at 45WPM and you had to ask
> > for repeats, you are not the lid!
> 
> In my experience, the greatest abuse of wildly excessive sending speed has
> been in DX contests, mostly by Eastern EU ops, whether at home or on
> expeditions.

I got turned off of the CQWW DX CW 'test years ago because of the
absurdly high speeds, of course it is merely a callsign copying event.
OTOH, I generally enjoy the ARRL 160m 'test as it is typically sub 30
WPM.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
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Web: https://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[john]

This is all good contesting advice Mike, especially regarding working dupes.

Thanks for the SS QSO,
John KK9A



Mike Dodd N4CF wrote:

I'll toss in my two cents

I have fair-to-middlin' CW skills, and I've operated a lot of CW 
contests. I was surprised and disappointed to hear so many high-speed 
ops in this year's CW SS. In past years, I've been pleased with the 
moderate speeds.

When I'm operating S, I almost always adjust my TX speed to match the 
running station's speed. it's only a hit or two on N1MM's Page Down key. 
I figure that's the considerate thing to do.

I can comfortably copy at 25 wpm, so that's the speed I call CQ. If 
someone answers faster than I can copy, I don't hesitate to send QRS. If 
he ignores that comes back still too fast, I'll just hit F1 to start 
another CQ.

If I can't copy part of his exchange, I'll ask for a repeat. There are 
plenty of reasons for bad copy, not just speed. QSB and QRM were present 
last weekend. I don't need to explain why I asked for a repeat!

One final comment regarding dupes. The contesting club to which I belong 
has a mantra: "work all dupes!" There is no penalty, but there is the 
possibility that one op or both busted a QSO, so the second one is 
insurance. Just work 'em. you might take small time hit, but how much 
time would you spend sending B4 or DUPE, then explaining to the other op 
why you won't work him again?

-- 
73, Mike N4CF
Louisa County, VA USA
Elecraft K4D / KPA500 / KAT500
Carolina Windom up 45'

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Mike Dodd]

On 11/9/2022 6:18 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

Al, if you called CQ at 30WPM and they answered at 45WPM and you had
to ask for repeats, you are not the lid!


I'll toss in my two cents

I have fair-to-middlin' CW skills, and I've operated a lot of CW 
contests. I was surprised and disappointed to hear so many high-speed 
ops in this year's CW SS. In past years, I've been pleased with the 
moderate speeds.


When I'm operating S, I almost always adjust my TX speed to match the 
running station's speed. it's only a hit or two on N1MM's Page Down key. 
I figure that's the considerate thing to do.


I can comfortably copy at 25 wpm, so that's the speed I call CQ. If 
someone answers faster than I can copy, I don't hesitate to send QRS. If 
he ignores that comes back still too fast, I'll just hit F1 to start 
another CQ.


If I can't copy part of his exchange, I'll ask for a repeat. There are 
plenty of reasons for bad copy, not just speed. QSB and QRM were present 
last weekend. I don't need to explain why I asked for a repeat!


One final comment regarding dupes. The contesting club to which I belong 
has a mantra: "work all dupes!" There is no penalty, but there is the 
possibility that one op or both busted a QSO, so the second one is 
insurance. Just work 'em. you might take small time hit, but how much 
time would you spend sending B4 or DUPE, then explaining to the other op 
why you won't work him again?


--
73, Mike N4CF
Louisa County, VA USA
Elecraft K4D / KPA500 / KAT500
Carolina Windom up 45'
http://n4cf.mdodd.com

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[a******@sbcglobal]

By the way, Jim, in case you were wondering, you sounded absolutely superb here 
in KY. And you were not one of the offending Big Guns. I mean, yes, you’re a 
Big Gun but no, I didn’t have you in mind during my rant. You know what I mean. 
:^)

Al W6LX/4

> On Nov 9, 2022, at 6:
> Great advice, Al. 
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Jim Brown]

On 11/9/2022 3:18 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

Al, if you called CQ at 30WPM and they answered at 45WPM and you had to ask
for repeats, you are not the lid!


In my experience, the greatest abuse of wildly excessive sending speed 
has been in DX contests, mostly by Eastern EU ops, whether at home or on 
expeditions.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[john]

Al, if you called CQ at 30WPM and they answered at 45WPM and you had to ask
for repeats, you are not the lid! If they were running at a higher  speed
that you're comfortable with, you probably could figure out their info from
QSOs before and after you. If it is not copyable you just have to move on. I
personally did not see that many super speed ops but I did not S until
late in the contest when most ops were begging.  There were definitely some
very good ops last weekend and I enjoyed all of my QSOs.

73,
John KK9A  (W4AAA in 2022 SS CW)



Al Lorona W6LX wrote:

I noticed this opposite phenomenon as soon as CW SS got started. It seemed
that the average CW speed was way up this year. (I hadn't operated the SS in
a couple of years, so this trend may have started a couple of years ago and
I just now have experienced it.) 

My CW skill is decent, but even I got into hot water when copying some
exchanges: Was that 378A? Or 377U? Asking for a repeat didn't always help,
because at 45 WPM slight multipath distortions in the ionosphere start to
mess with high-speed CW. Not a single op slowed down for me, even if I had
to ask for multiple repeats.

Then there's this: When you think about it, there's no incentive to help
someone like me copy correctly. After all, if I copy incorrectly, I'm the
one who gets penalized, not him. By asking for a repeat, all I'm doing (in
his mind) is slowing him down on his run frequency. And probably ticking him
off?

I mean, 30 WPM with no repeats is actually faster than 40 WPM with some
repeats.

You may say, "Well, Al, you're a lid for entering a contest if you're unable
to copy quickly enough to participate." Maybe so, but the obstinacy of
operating at 40+ WPM no matter what shows a colossal disdain for the Little
Pistols who are the bread and butter of the elite. 

R,

Al  W6LX/4

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Jim Brown]

On 11/9/2022 2:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

I mean, 30 WPM with no repeats is actually faster than 40 WPM with some repeats.


Great advice, Al. My friend N6TV, who has won SS several times, starts 
out in the 30s, but slows down towards the end of the contest. Nearly 
all of my operation was 26-28 wpm. I slowed down when someone needed it, 
but it's been observed that a lot of ops who send fairly slow are using 
readers, so that's rarely required. What's more important, I think, is 
sending good clean code.


One tactic I use in pileups is to send as fast as I think the other guy 
can copy, in the hope of sneaking more of my call into a gap between 
other callers. On these occasions, I'll get up to 34 wpm or so. A few 
times I've forgotten to slow back down, so ran for a while before I 
caught my mistake.


On 11/9/2022 2:45 PM, Andrew (A.J.) Stockton via Elecraft wrote:
> How about an online counter for ‘Please Copy’. {coming to SSB soon}.

I refuse to work anyone who says that. Those lids have soured my on SSB 
contesting, which I used to enjoy.


73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Andrew (A.J.) Stockton via Elecraft]

How about an online counter for ‘Please Copy’. {coming to SSB soon}. Need a 
quarter jar for that one…..

-AJ | NK4O

> On Nov 9, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Al Lorona  wrote:
> 
> This issue is a kind of double-edged sword that cuts not only newbies with 
> bad fists, but Big Guns with fists that are, well, *too* good.
> 
> I noticed this opposite phenomenon as soon as CW SS got started. It seemed 
> that the average CW speed was way up this year. (I hadn't operated the SS in 
> a couple of years, so this trend may have started a couple of years ago and I 
> just now have experienced it.) 
> 
> My CW skill is decent, but even I got into hot water when copying some 
> exchanges: Was that 378A? Or 377U? Asking for a repeat didn't always help, 
> because at 45 WPM slight multipath distortions in the ionosphere start to 
> mess with high-speed CW. Not a single op slowed down for me, even if I had to 
> ask for multiple repeats.
> 
> Then there's this: When you think about it, there's no incentive to help 
> someone like me copy correctly. After all, if I copy incorrectly, I'm the one 
> who gets penalized, not him. By asking for a repeat, all I'm doing (in his 
> mind) is slowing him down on his run frequency. And probably ticking him off?
> 
> I mean, 30 WPM with no repeats is actually faster than 40 WPM with some 
> repeats.
> 
> You may say, "Well, Al, you're a lid for entering a contest if you're unable 
> to copy quickly enough to participate." Maybe so, but the obstinacy of 
> operating at 40+ WPM no matter what shows a colossal disdain for the Little 
> Pistols who are the bread and butter of the elite. 
> 
> In two weeks we'll get to hear the Phone SS equivalent of this obstinacy: 
> absolutely nasty, overdriven, groaty, fingernails-on-a-chalkboard, bad audio. 
> How lovely.
> 
> R,
> 
> Al  W6LX/4
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Al Lorona]

This issue is a kind of double-edged sword that cuts not only newbies with bad 
fists, but Big Guns with fists that are, well, *too* good.

I noticed this opposite phenomenon as soon as CW SS got started. It seemed that 
the average CW speed was way up this year. (I hadn't operated the SS in a 
couple of years, so this trend may have started a couple of years ago and I 
just now have experienced it.) 

My CW skill is decent, but even I got into hot water when copying some 
exchanges: Was that 378A? Or 377U? Asking for a repeat didn't always help, 
because at 45 WPM slight multipath distortions in the ionosphere start to mess 
with high-speed CW. Not a single op slowed down for me, even if I had to ask 
for multiple repeats.

Then there's this: When you think about it, there's no incentive to help 
someone like me copy correctly. After all, if I copy incorrectly, I'm the one 
who gets penalized, not him. By asking for a repeat, all I'm doing (in his 
mind) is slowing him down on his run frequency. And probably ticking him off?

I mean, 30 WPM with no repeats is actually faster than 40 WPM with some repeats.

You may say, "Well, Al, you're a lid for entering a contest if you're unable to 
copy quickly enough to participate." Maybe so, but the obstinacy of operating 
at 40+ WPM no matter what shows a colossal disdain for the Little Pistols who 
are the bread and butter of the elite. 

In two weeks we'll get to hear the Phone SS equivalent of this obstinacy: 
absolutely nasty, overdriven, groaty, fingernails-on-a-chalkboard, bad audio. 
How lovely.

R,

Al  W6LX/4

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Byron Servies]

What stuff.

If you are going to operate with a key, you should have practiced enough 
beforehand to be able to send the entire exchange without an issue. One repeat 
at most.

That is all Jim is complaining about: be minimally competent.

73, Byron N6NUL

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022, at 9:04 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> The alternative is that if one is new to CW (or to ham radio at all), 
> he/she should not operate in the Sweepstakes, and just let the 
> experienced ops have their fun. I'm sure you would not prefer that!
> 
> 73,
> Victor, 4X6GP
> Rehovot, Israel
> Formerly K2VCO
> CWops no. 5
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
> 
> On 08/11/2022 23:49, Jim Brown wrote:
> > I made more than 1,000 QSOs in Sweepstakes this weekend, and the most 
> > frustrating, by far, were from a couple of dozen QRPers who 1) never 
> > heard of dupe checking; and 2) sent by hand with pretty lousy fists. 
> > Late Sunday evening, while calling CQ on another band, I waited a couple 
> > of  minutes for a VA2 station to get a fill on the serial number from a 
> > QRPer who couldn't send it correctly, probably because he hadn't worked 
> > enough CW to have a decent fist. The problem was NOT signal strength. I 
> > had the same problem with half of the casual QRPers I worked.
> > 
> > Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging 
> > program, both to log and to send CW. This is not a slam on QRP operation 
> > -- I've worked a lot of contests QRP, and one of my best buddies, W6JTI, 
> > WINS or places in the top two or three in the many contests he enters 
> > QRP. Frank made 554 QSOs in SS last weekend, and made the sweep of all 
> > 84 sections (NOT easy with HIGH power).
> > 
> > Why does this matter? Because MANY contesters take it seriously, and 
> > most can finish a Sweepstakes QSO in 30-40 seconds. Most of us, me 
> > included, are happy to work and encourage new contesters, but it's very 
> > frustrating when someone can't send CW due to lack of practice, and 
> > calls to work us a second or even a third time because he's too lazy to 
> > check of dupes, taking well over a minute to finish a QSO.
> > 
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __
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73, Byron N6NUL
-- 
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 7-8 Oct 2023
- www.cqp.org

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

Jim,

The alternative is that if one is new to CW (or to ham radio at all), 
he/she should not operate in the Sweepstakes, and just let the 
experienced ops have their fun. I'm sure you would not prefer that!


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

On 08/11/2022 23:49, Jim Brown wrote:
I made more than 1,000 QSOs in Sweepstakes this weekend, and the most 
frustrating, by far, were from a couple of dozen QRPers who 1) never 
heard of dupe checking; and 2) sent by hand with pretty lousy fists. 
Late Sunday evening, while calling CQ on another band, I waited a couple 
of  minutes for a VA2 station to get a fill on the serial number from a 
QRPer who couldn't send it correctly, probably because he hadn't worked 
enough CW to have a decent fist. The problem was NOT signal strength. I 
had the same problem with half of the casual QRPers I worked.


Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging 
program, both to log and to send CW. This is not a slam on QRP operation 
-- I've worked a lot of contests QRP, and one of my best buddies, W6JTI, 
WINS or places in the top two or three in the many contests he enters 
QRP. Frank made 554 QSOs in SS last weekend, and made the sweep of all 
84 sections (NOT easy with HIGH power).


Why does this matter? Because MANY contesters take it seriously, and 
most can finish a Sweepstakes QSO in 30-40 seconds. Most of us, me 
included, are happy to work and encourage new contesters, but it's very 
frustrating when someone can't send CW due to lack of practice, and 
calls to work us a second or even a third time because he's too lazy to 
check of dupes, taking well over a minute to finish a QSO.


73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Andrew Moore]

> Diving into SS CW when you are not prepared and then calling a good op
who is capable of over 1000 contacts elitist seems a bit childish

Hang on, that's not what happened. The inexperienced op who answered the
call of a high speed contest op didn't call anyone elitist. Those were two
different people.

In the interest of protecting and preserving the valuable spectrum we've
been allocated, it might be good for infighting to take a back seat, or at
least a less visible one (ie let's get along with each other in public
despite differences). There are plenty non-ham entities eager to profit
from our currently non profit bandwidth (ex: see 1988 FCC reallocation
order for 220-222 MHz), Cascading effects might include the snuffing out of
radio related, innovative small businesses, which ultimately isn't good for
our hobby, sport, interest, learning, advancement and service.

73 de NV1B
..




On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 7:39 PM Richard Hill  wrote:

> The point of the SST and MST contests is to provide newer cw ops with a
> contest training environment where the exchange is simple and new ops can
> practice sending and receiving and other basic operations like dupe
> checking in a friendly and mostly unhurried environment.  Diving into SS CW
> when you are not prepared and then calling a good op who is capable of over
> 1000 contacts elitist seems a bit childish, like a driver with a new
> license calling Indy 500 drivers elitist.
>
> Rich
> NU6T
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 3:53 PM Edward Tanton  wrote:
>
>> I am also in the 'by hand' group. I greatly enjoy the "process": a paper
>> dupe sheet, picking the next QSO, and entering the log information. For
>> various reasons I MAY partially fill out a QSL card. No, you don't win
>> categories, but my head & heart love itSent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>>  Original message From: Wayne Burdick 
>> Date: 11/8/22  6:41 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Andrew Moore <
>> andrew.n...@gmail.com> Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting Andrew Moore <
>> andrew.n...@gmail.com> wrote:> For many of us...the joy of contesting>
>> is keying by hand and taking notes on paper...I'm in this group. Casual
>> contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and almost always logging by
>> hand.I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there who
>> approach this with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of
>> ability -- that next QSO.WayneN6KR(Disclaimer: I'm not in the "still
>> learning CW" camp
>> :)__Elecraft
>> mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.netThis
>> list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email li
>>  st: http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to n...@comcast.net
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>
>
> --
> Richard Hill
>
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Richard Hill]

The point of the SST and MST contests is to provide newer cw ops with a
contest training environment where the exchange is simple and new ops can
practice sending and receiving and other basic operations like dupe
checking in a friendly and mostly unhurried environment.  Diving into SS CW
when you are not prepared and then calling a good op who is capable of over
1000 contacts elitist seems a bit childish, like a driver with a new
license calling Indy 500 drivers elitist.

Rich
NU6T

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 3:53 PM Edward Tanton  wrote:

> I am also in the 'by hand' group. I greatly enjoy the "process": a paper
> dupe sheet, picking the next QSO, and entering the log information. For
> various reasons I MAY partially fill out a QSL card. No, you don't win
> categories, but my head & heart love itSent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>  Original message From: Wayne Burdick 
> Date: 11/8/22  6:41 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Andrew Moore <
> andrew.n...@gmail.com> Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting Andrew Moore <
> andrew.n...@gmail.com> wrote:> For many of us...the joy of contesting> is
> keying by hand and taking notes on paper...I'm in this group. Casual
> contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and almost always logging by
> hand.I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there who
> approach this with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of
> ability -- that next QSO.WayneN6KR(Disclaimer: I'm not in the "still
> learning CW" camp
> :)__Elecraft
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> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.netThis
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-- 
Richard Hill
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2022 08 Nov 16:33 -0600, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
> looks like someone is having a bad day

No.  Jim's comments are very apropos.  I am a causal contest op and I
always use a logging program with keying simply because it is the most
efficient means for me to do so and I have a very lousy fist that equals
my lousy handwriting (odd nerve impulses goof things up).  It is
imperative that the other station copy my callsign correctly so we both
get credit for the QSO.

I did not do SS but I get the same sort of dupe action operating in our
state QSO party, sometimes not more than a few minutes apart.  I can
only presume that either the op isn't actually logging or miscopied the
1x1 callsign I was using--there are only three of us operating with an
'N' suffix, K0N, N0N, W0N, which I guess is possible to miscopy.

Also, QRP is not an excuse to eschew computer logging and clean sending.
Some seem to take it to the extreme and think that Morse must be
generated by rubbing wires together.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Andrew Moore]

(to be clear: I have great respect and admiration for the hard-core CW
contest ops and their high speed skills)

NV1B
..


On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 6:27 PM Andrew Moore  wrote:

> Hi Jim -
>
> Among the best ways to get better at something is to practice, and often a
> better way is to practice while jumping into a live scenario (as opposed to
> simulated or offline) before you're reasonably proficient. I wouldn't
> recommend that approach for learning how to fly an airplane or drive a car,
> but for learning a spoken language or improving CW sending, sure.
> Non-contesting operation doesn't cease when big contests are running.
>
> > Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging
> program, both to log and to send CW
>
> There's not a lot you can do to change their behavior, so why not focus on
> what you can control: Both could easily be solved by, when hearing a faint,
> sloppy QRP station answering your call, simply ignoring them. A bad fist
> should be easy to identify in a few seconds. Answer someone else, or call
> CQ again. Their feelings might be hurt briefly, but they'll understand and
> you won't waste time.
>
> For many of us, maybe not the hard core contesters, the joy of contesting
> is keying by hand and taking notes on paper, and don't have a lot of
> interest in tying a computer to the radio and sending by keyboard
> (excepting QRQ operation where using a keyboard is the only choice).
>
> All that said, I understand your frustration.
>
> 73/72,
> -Andrew NV1B
> ..
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:52 PM Jim Brown 
> wrote:
>
>> I made more than 1,000 QSOs in Sweepstakes this weekend, and the most
>> frustrating, by far, were from a couple of dozen QRPers who 1) never
>> heard of dupe checking; and 2) sent by hand with pretty lousy fists.
>> Late Sunday evening, while calling CQ on another band, I waited a couple
>> of  minutes for a VA2 station to get a fill on the serial number from a
>> QRPer who couldn't send it correctly, probably because he hadn't worked
>> enough CW to have a decent fist. The problem was NOT signal strength. I
>> had the same problem with half of the casual QRPers I worked.
>>
>> Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging
>> program, both to log and to send CW. This is not a slam on QRP operation
>> -- I've worked a lot of contests QRP, and one of my best buddies, W6JTI,
>> WINS or places in the top two or three in the many contests he enters
>> QRP. Frank made 554 QSOs in SS last weekend, and made the sweep of all
>> 84 sections (NOT easy with HIGH power).
>>
>> Why does this matter? Because MANY contesters take it seriously, and
>> most can finish a Sweepstakes QSO in 30-40 seconds. Most of us, me
>> included, are happy to work and encourage new contesters, but it's very
>> frustrating when someone can't send CW due to lack of practice, and
>> calls to work us a second or even a third time because he's too lazy to
>> check of dupes, taking well over a minute to finish a QSO.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>
>>
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Edward Tanton]

I am also in the 'by hand' group. I greatly enjoy the "process": a paper dupe 
sheet, picking the next QSO, and entering the log information. For various 
reasons I MAY partially fill out a QSL card. No, you don't win categories, but 
my head & heart love itSent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Wayne Burdick  Date: 
11/8/22  6:41 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Andrew Moore  Cc: 
Elecraft Reflector  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP and 
Contesting Andrew Moore  wrote:> For many of us...the 
joy of contesting> is keying by hand and taking notes on paper...I'm in this 
group. Casual contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and almost always 
logging by hand.I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there who 
approach this with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of 
ability -- that next QSO.WayneN6KR(Disclaimer: I'm not in the "still learning 
CW" camp 
:)__Elecraft 
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Wayne Burdick]

Andrew Moore  wrote:

> For many of us...the joy of contesting
> is keying by hand and taking notes on paper...

I'm in this group. Casual contest operation, usually QRP, mostly CW, and almost 
always logging by hand.

I greatly appreciate all of the very serious ops out there who approach this 
with a high level of skill and give everyone -- regardless of ability -- that 
next QSO.

Wayne
N6KR

(Disclaimer: I'm not in the "still learning CW" camp :)


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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Andrew Moore]

Hi Jim -

Among the best ways to get better at something is to practice, and often a
better way is to practice while jumping into a live scenario (as opposed to
simulated or offline) before you're reasonably proficient. I wouldn't
recommend that approach for learning how to fly an airplane or drive a car,
but for learning a spoken language or improving CW sending, sure.
Non-contesting operation doesn't cease when big contests are running.

> Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging
program, both to log and to send CW

There's not a lot you can do to change their behavior, so why not focus on
what you can control: Both could easily be solved by, when hearing a faint,
sloppy QRP station answering your call, simply ignoring them. A bad fist
should be easy to identify in a few seconds. Answer someone else, or call
CQ again. Their feelings might be hurt briefly, but they'll understand and
you won't waste time.

For many of us, maybe not the hard core contesters, the joy of contesting
is keying by hand and taking notes on paper, and don't have a lot of
interest in tying a computer to the radio and sending by keyboard
(excepting QRQ operation where using a keyboard is the only choice).

All that said, I understand your frustration.

73/72,
-Andrew NV1B
..


On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:52 PM Jim Brown  wrote:

> I made more than 1,000 QSOs in Sweepstakes this weekend, and the most
> frustrating, by far, were from a couple of dozen QRPers who 1) never
> heard of dupe checking; and 2) sent by hand with pretty lousy fists.
> Late Sunday evening, while calling CQ on another band, I waited a couple
> of  minutes for a VA2 station to get a fill on the serial number from a
> QRPer who couldn't send it correctly, probably because he hadn't worked
> enough CW to have a decent fist. The problem was NOT signal strength. I
> had the same problem with half of the casual QRPers I worked.
>
> Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging
> program, both to log and to send CW. This is not a slam on QRP operation
> -- I've worked a lot of contests QRP, and one of my best buddies, W6JTI,
> WINS or places in the top two or three in the many contests he enters
> QRP. Frank made 554 QSOs in SS last weekend, and made the sweep of all
> 84 sections (NOT easy with HIGH power).
>
> Why does this matter? Because MANY contesters take it seriously, and
> most can finish a Sweepstakes QSO in 30-40 seconds. Most of us, me
> included, are happy to work and encourage new contesters, but it's very
> frustrating when someone can't send CW due to lack of practice, and
> calls to work us a second or even a third time because he's too lazy to
> check of dupes, taking well over a minute to finish a QSO.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

looks like someone is having a bad day

we should create a contest only for smart people hi hi hi

even those who seem to be intelligent are wrong, who will have to do this
with Elecraft to publish it on this list?

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W


El mar, 8 nov 2022 a las 19:16, Jim Brown ()
escribió:

> On 11/8/2022 1:55 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
> > And that is why a lot of hams are afraid of getting one the air with cw.
> > Elitist ops.
>
> An op who expects a caller to be able to send a two or three digit
> number in less than a minute is NOT elitist! An op who expects someone
> entering a contest to check for dupes when the contest rules clearly say
> you can work a station only once is NOT elitist. And I worked EVERY ONE
> of those dupes each time they called, without comment on the air.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Jim Brown]

On 11/8/2022 1:55 PM, Jerry Moore wrote:
And that is why a lot of hams are afraid of getting one the air with cw. 
Elitist ops.


An op who expects a caller to be able to send a two or three digit 
number in less than a minute is NOT elitist! An op who expects someone 
entering a contest to check for dupes when the contest rules clearly say 
you can work a station only once is NOT elitist. And I worked EVERY ONE 
of those dupes each time they called, without comment on the air.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

[Jerry Moore]

And that is why a lot of hams are afraid of getting one the air with cw. 
Elitist ops.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Get Outlook for Android

From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Jim Brown 
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2022 4:49:45 PM
To: Reflector Elecraft 
Subject: [Elecraft] QRP and Contesting

I made more than 1,000 QSOs in Sweepstakes this weekend, and the most
frustrating, by far, were from a couple of dozen QRPers who 1) never
heard of dupe checking; and 2) sent by hand with pretty lousy fists.
Late Sunday evening, while calling CQ on another band, I waited a couple
of  minutes for a VA2 station to get a fill on the serial number from a
QRPer who couldn't send it correctly, probably because he hadn't worked
enough CW to have a decent fist. The problem was NOT signal strength. I
had the same problem with half of the casual QRPers I worked.

Both of these problems are easily solved by using a contest logging
program, both to log and to send CW. This is not a slam on QRP operation
-- I've worked a lot of contests QRP, and one of my best buddies, W6JTI,
WINS or places in the top two or three in the many contests he enters
QRP. Frank made 554 QSOs in SS last weekend, and made the sweep of all
84 sections (NOT easy with HIGH power).

Why does this matter? Because MANY contesters take it seriously, and
most can finish a Sweepstakes QSO in 30-40 seconds. Most of us, me
included, are happy to work and encourage new contesters, but it's very
frustrating when someone can't send CW due to lack of practice, and
calls to work us a second or even a third time because he's too lazy to
check of dupes, taking well over a minute to finish a QSO.

73, Jim K9YC



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