Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Ian White GM3SEK]

Vic K2VCO wrote:
>On 8/12/2012 1:25 PM, stan levandowski wrote:
>> For those Listers who don't know what Ultimatic keying is all about -
>> and are afraid to ask  - here is a description by Chuck Olson WB9KZY and
>> some references also: http://wb9kzy.com/ultimat.txt
>>
>> 73, Stan WB2LQF

In a few words: when you squeeze the key, Ultimatic doesn't send 
alternating dots and dashes - it "interrupts" whichever ones you were 
already sending, to send the opposite character instead. The Ultimatic 
logic is "last paddle pressed, always wins".

The Ultimatic system is more forgiving of small timing errors because it 
doesn't ever store a trailing character from the opposite paddle. In 
most implementations, Ultimatic allows plenty of time to release either 
paddle (if that's what you need to do) before it takes a fresh look at 
both paddles.

Ultimatic is favored by two very different groups of people:

1. People who can read Morse faster than their fingers will send it, so 
they are *always* sending at their personal upper limit.

2. Extreme High Speed operators, who are sending at *their* upper limit, 
too... but for very different reasons.

>You guys got me interested, and I have a keyer that supports it, so I tried it.
>
>Couldn't send C's or K's. Both of which are in my call!
>
Well, yeah...  Ultimatic has got to feel different from the system 
you're already used to. (If it wasn't different, it would be the same 
:-)


But the main point is that both the K3 and the KX3 offer an extremely 
limited set of menu options for the built-in CW keyer - which also is 
the ONLY way to send RTTY or PSK from the paddles.

When the $6 K12 keyer chip offers a wider range of options than the K3 
and the KX3 do, something is out of balance in the feature list. It is 
surely time for those additional options (including bug and Ultimatic) 
to be made available "inside the box".


-- 

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft]

In the interest of keeping list volume under control (and improving SNR) 
let's end this thread at this time.

For those interested, there is a lot of prior discussion of this topic 
in the searchable list archives at:
http://www.elecraft.com/elist.html

73,
Eric
Elecraft List Moderator

_..._

On 8/12/2012 7:14 PM, Bob wrote:
> Hi Randy,
>
>  Sounds suspiciously like the 9TO Mark II which appeared in 
> the
> June 1967
> issue of QST, was called "Dot Insertion"   It was my 1st keyer and I still 
> have
> it!

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Bob]

Hi Randy,

Sounds suspiciously like the 9TO Mark II which appeared in the 
June 1967
issue of QST, was called "Dot Insertion"   It was my 1st keyer and I still have 
it!!

You can get the article on line at the ARRL if you want to 
check 
it out.  I think
it is an Ultimatic type but relieves some of the timing issue with "slapping" 
in 
dots.

 Also helped keep the shack warm in the winter, had 4 or 5 
12AU7"s and 2
regulator tubes  (hollow state zeners).

73,
Bob
K2TK  ex KN2TKR (1956) & K2TKR
On 8/12/2012 9:25 PM, Randy Farmer wrote:
> On an even more obscure note, in the summer of 1965 or 1966 (can't
> remember which) as a recently-minted Conditional class licensee I was
> spending a lot of time on 40 meter CW during the day. High school was
> out for the summer and I was busy building electronic keyers and
> learning to use them.
>
> I ran across a W4, down in Alabama I think, who was a regular 40 QRQ
> guy. He had developed what he called the "Squeeze Keyer". It used a
> bunch of 12AU7s and had a similar philosophy to the Ultimatic. His
> version used what he called "single dot injection" and closing the dot
> paddle while the dash paddle was held closed would inject a single dot
> in the stream of dashes. Other than for this condition, the dash paddle
> always had priority over the dot paddle. Using this technique, any
> letter in the alphabet except X could be generated with a single
> properly timed squeeze of the paddles. He wouldn't publish the design,
> so when he went SK it presumably died with him. Sometime in the early
> '70s I designed and built a keyer that did the same thing using 74xx TTL
> chips. It worked great, but I was about the only one who could send on
> it. Does anybody else remember the "Squeeze Keyer"?
>
> 73...
> Randy, W8FN
>
> On 08/12/2012 17:00, Erik Basilier wrote:
>> Ron, thanks for your comments, and I recognize that there must be a sizable
>> minority of operators that are fully competent with iambic. And, when iambic
>> is mastered it can probably produce faster code than either a single paddle
>> or a double paddle used by a non-iambic operator. What I don't believe is
>> that if you put a dual paddle with iambic logic in the hands of an
>> established operator, he will gradually slip into making use of the iambic
>> features. Yet, that seems to be the assumption of manufacturers. I can think
>> of 3 dual paddles available from Elecraft, but no single paddle option. Two
>> of the Elecraft paddles are for portable rigs. My experience with portable
>> operation is that the sitting position is usually uncomfortable, the hands
>> may be cold and shaking (due to cold or exertion), and motor skills are way
>> below the level at the shack. In such a situation, my mistakes with a dual
>> paddle go way up, and either Ultimatic or a single paddle would help a lot.
>> Before my KX1 I used a single lever made from flexing PC board with my
>> portable radios. It didn't go fast, but was very reliable after I soldered
>> little pieces of sterling silver to the contact points. Somehow I am
>> guessing that the tendency of manufacturers toward dual paddles and
>> complicated keying logic has something to do with the desire to appear to
>> deliver the most for the money. Beginners may be swayed by that. Some
>> manufacturers seem to really promote "more is more" as in pounds of radio
>> and number of knobs. Others, particularly when selling qrp rigs may promote
>> "less is more". For the thinking ham, neither slogan makes sense. Elecraft
>> provides lots features where more certainly is more, but saves us from
>> backbreaking radio weights and impractical numbers of controls. When it
>> comes to keying, the "more is more" seems to have won out without real
>> justification.
>>
>> BTW many years ago like you I built a keyer from discrete CMOS (published in
>> 73 mag). I don't remember what the keying logic was, but since dual paddles
>> were used, I am guessing that the whole project was motivated by the new
>> iambic ideas. I never learnt to use it at all (let alone the iambic
>> features) until I reversed the paddles to get the dits on the thumb. I can
>> relate to the pleasure of learning a physical skill like that (used to play
>> classical guitar), but feel that the movements with iambic are just too
>> small and delicate. Maybe I just need to set bigger spacing an use more
>> forceful movements to feel what is going on, but I seem to have a preference
>> for very small contact spacings. Interesting to hear about your need for
>> time to adjust between different sets of muscle memories. I experience
>> something similar in copying morse. I can copy quite fast, but it takes a
>> few moments to "load the decoder into my brain". One time I was filling up
>> at a gas station and another customer saw my mobile antenna and asked what I
>> was doing. When I said I was a ham, he started voicing "di-dah's" at me and
>> I couldn't copy at all.

Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[W2RU - Bud Hippisley]

On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:25 PM, Randy Farmer  wrote:

>  Does anybody else remember the "Squeeze Keyer"?

Yep!  Basically, a POO Keyer with single dot insertion. 

Bud, W2RU
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Randy Farmer]

On an even more obscure note, in the summer of 1965 or 1966 (can't 
remember which) as a recently-minted Conditional class licensee I was 
spending a lot of time on 40 meter CW during the day. High school was 
out for the summer and I was busy building electronic keyers and 
learning to use them.

I ran across a W4, down in Alabama I think, who was a regular 40 QRQ 
guy. He had developed what he called the "Squeeze Keyer". It used a 
bunch of 12AU7s and had a similar philosophy to the Ultimatic. His 
version used what he called "single dot injection" and closing the dot 
paddle while the dash paddle was held closed would inject a single dot 
in the stream of dashes. Other than for this condition, the dash paddle 
always had priority over the dot paddle. Using this technique, any 
letter in the alphabet except X could be generated with a single 
properly timed squeeze of the paddles. He wouldn't publish the design, 
so when he went SK it presumably died with him. Sometime in the early 
'70s I designed and built a keyer that did the same thing using 74xx TTL 
chips. It worked great, but I was about the only one who could send on 
it. Does anybody else remember the "Squeeze Keyer"?

73...
Randy, W8FN

On 08/12/2012 17:00, Erik Basilier wrote:
> Ron, thanks for your comments, and I recognize that there must be a sizable
> minority of operators that are fully competent with iambic. And, when iambic
> is mastered it can probably produce faster code than either a single paddle
> or a double paddle used by a non-iambic operator. What I don't believe is
> that if you put a dual paddle with iambic logic in the hands of an
> established operator, he will gradually slip into making use of the iambic
> features. Yet, that seems to be the assumption of manufacturers. I can think
> of 3 dual paddles available from Elecraft, but no single paddle option. Two
> of the Elecraft paddles are for portable rigs. My experience with portable
> operation is that the sitting position is usually uncomfortable, the hands
> may be cold and shaking (due to cold or exertion), and motor skills are way
> below the level at the shack. In such a situation, my mistakes with a dual
> paddle go way up, and either Ultimatic or a single paddle would help a lot.
> Before my KX1 I used a single lever made from flexing PC board with my
> portable radios. It didn't go fast, but was very reliable after I soldered
> little pieces of sterling silver to the contact points. Somehow I am
> guessing that the tendency of manufacturers toward dual paddles and
> complicated keying logic has something to do with the desire to appear to
> deliver the most for the money. Beginners may be swayed by that. Some
> manufacturers seem to really promote "more is more" as in pounds of radio
> and number of knobs. Others, particularly when selling qrp rigs may promote
> "less is more". For the thinking ham, neither slogan makes sense. Elecraft
> provides lots features where more certainly is more, but saves us from
> backbreaking radio weights and impractical numbers of controls. When it
> comes to keying, the "more is more" seems to have won out without real
> justification.
>
> BTW many years ago like you I built a keyer from discrete CMOS (published in
> 73 mag). I don't remember what the keying logic was, but since dual paddles
> were used, I am guessing that the whole project was motivated by the new
> iambic ideas. I never learnt to use it at all (let alone the iambic
> features) until I reversed the paddles to get the dits on the thumb. I can
> relate to the pleasure of learning a physical skill like that (used to play
> classical guitar), but feel that the movements with iambic are just too
> small and delicate. Maybe I just need to set bigger spacing an use more
> forceful movements to feel what is going on, but I seem to have a preference
> for very small contact spacings. Interesting to hear about your need for
> time to adjust between different sets of muscle memories. I experience
> something similar in copying morse. I can copy quite fast, but it takes a
> few moments to "load the decoder into my brain". One time I was filling up
> at a gas station and another customer saw my mobile antenna and asked what I
> was doing. When I said I was a ham, he started voicing "di-dah's" at me and
> I couldn't copy at all. In addition to the general boot-up time, I just
> wasn't programmed for that.
>
>   
>
> 73,
>
> Erik K7TV
>
> 
>
> To answer your question, after 20 years of using a straight key and bug, I
> built a discrete-component CMOS iambic keyer in the 1970's.
>
>   
>
> I did start out slow but speed came quickly, IIRC, as my fingers learned the
> correct pattern of movements for each character. But I had to do the same
> thing when I learned to use a bug in the 1950's. Knowing Morse doesn't mean
> one's body knows how to operate a particular key to generate it. That takes
> practice.
>
>   
>
> I was pleasantly surprised to fin

Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Fred Jensen]

On 8/12/2012 3:44 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:

> In 1971 in Germany in the Army Signal Corps, we convinced our COL to upgrade
> us to a 90 WPM RTTY machine so we wouldn't get stalled by the sluggish
> nature of the 60WPM.  To this day, I wonder how I typed that fast as I sure
> suck today!  Noisy is was!!!

Copying CW direct to TTY tape was hugely easy for that reason.  As long 
as he wasn't sending at 60 WPM [like I have ever been able to make 
record copy at that speed :-)], you just pressed the keys, with a lot of 
travel, and it went from ears to fingers with no intermediate stops.

It was much the same on the Underwood open-frame mills -- long key 
travel, you really knew you were pressing the key, and it became 
something of a finger dance.  Today's computer keyboards are much harder 
for me for record copy, I don't really get the physical sense of 
pressing the keys, and I tend to wear them out ... pounding far more 
than I need to.  My laptop is the worst.

Regarding Ultimatic, I've tried it, never practiced, basically didn't 
like it all that much.  My K3 and Winkey USB are both iambic, too old, 
don't use it.  But, to each his own.  The K3 keyer is all firmware, 
ultimatic could probably be added as an option if enough address space 
is available.  Time is probably the big issue for Wayne/Eric and 
Company, no one could wait quietly for the K3, then KPA500, KX3, and now 
KAT500, I'll bet their engineering agendas are very full.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org



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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Bill K9YEQ]

Ron,

In 1971 in Germany in the Army Signal Corps, we convinced our COL to upgrade
us to a 90 WPM RTTY machine so we wouldn't get stalled by the sluggish
nature of the 60WPM.  To this day, I wonder how I typed that fast as I sure
suck today!  Noisy is was!!!

73,
Bill
K9YEQ


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 5:02 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

I learned to type that way in High School too but what really taught me to
keep a steady pace was pounding away on an old Model 15 RTTY keyboard in the
Army. As each key was pressed the keyboard locked while the mechanical
encoder cycled before another key could be pressed. Fortunately it was
pretty noisy so one learned to hear the mechanism cycle and knew just when
the next key could be pressed. Tapping one foot worked well too :-)

99.99% of my operating is CW rag chewing. We may be a diminishing "breed",
but there are still plenty of us out there to provide some really nice hours
on the bands. 

That got me nostalgic for the old Model 15 "rattle" so I looked and, sure
'nough, someone has one running on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWa6u5_Itvs

The trick is to keep that rhythm for maximum inputting speed on the
keyboard. 

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-

Same thing with a CW keyboard.  Typing was taught in high school by rhythm
and thus typing the next character at the right time was easy. 

With one key rollover, one can just about forget the need for a buffer.

 

I really pity the person who is trying to learn to use a dual lever paddle
from scratch with any type of keying logic.  My perception is that squeezing
timing is much more unnatural and difficult to achieve than back and forth
"slapping".  Of course, the rest of the CW world has mastered it, so it's
obviously not impossible.

 

I think your survey needs to include how many really CW ragchew. That number
has got to be small. All of this stuff becomes unnecessary if one just
engages in 599 73 QSO's.

 

73 de Brian/K3KO

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Wes Stewart]

My former TS-870 had a built-in Logikey and I could actually send with it.  The 
same can't be said for the K3 internal keyer.  I can barely program the 
memories without a few tries. As to holding a QSO forget it.  I've been sending 
the numeral "7" in my call since 1958 and it still comes out "M S" with the K3. 
:-)

--- On Sun, 8/12/12, John Oppenheimer  wrote:
Date: Sunday, August 12, 2012, 3:34 PM

On 08/12/2012 03:27 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

> 3.  How many operators can truly say that they make use of iambic features?

I do too. I went from straight key to Iambic back in the 70s, or so. I
used a HB copy of the Heathkit HD-1410 Iambic keyer and a HB Iambic Key.

I decided that I would not chase the various rig internal keyers and
standardize on a keyer and key. Mine are Idiom Press K3 and CMOS-4 (VØ
Logikey K1, K3 timing w/dot and dash memory) and Vibroplex Iambic key.
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I learned to type that way in High School too but what really taught me to
keep a steady pace was pounding away on an old Model 15 RTTY keyboard in the
Army. As each key was pressed the keyboard locked while the mechanical
encoder cycled before another key could be pressed. Fortunately it was
pretty noisy so one learned to hear the mechanism cycle and knew just when
the next key could be pressed. Tapping one foot worked well too :-)

99.99% of my operating is CW rag chewing. We may be a diminishing "breed",
but there are still plenty of us out there to provide some really nice hours
on the bands. 

That got me nostalgic for the old Model 15 "rattle" so I looked and, sure
'nough, someone has one running on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWa6u5_Itvs

The trick is to keep that rhythm for maximum inputting speed on the
keyboard. 

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-

Same thing with a CW keyboard.  Typing was taught in high school by rhythm
and thus typing the next character at the right time was easy. 

With one key rollover, one can just about forget the need for a buffer.

 

I really pity the person who is trying to learn to use a dual lever paddle
from scratch with any type of keying logic.  My perception is that squeezing
timing is much more unnatural and difficult to achieve than back and forth
"slapping".  Of course, the rest of the CW world has mastered it, so it's
obviously not impossible.

 

I think your survey needs to include how many really CW ragchew. That number
has got to be small. All of this stuff becomes unnecessary if one just
engages in 599 73 QSO's.

 

73 de Brian/K3KO

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[John Oppenheimer]

On 08/12/2012 03:27 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

> 3.  How many operators can truly say that they make use of iambic features?

I do too. I went from straight key to Iambic back in the 70s, or so. I
used a HB copy of the Heathkit HD-1410 Iambic keyer and a HB Iambic Key.

I decided that I would not chase the various rig internal keyers and
standardize on a keyer and key. Mine are Idiom Press K3 and CMOS-4 (VØ
Logikey K1, K3 timing w/dot and dash memory) and Vibroplex Iambic key.

My suggestion is to find what you like in an external keyer and use it
for home use. And make compromises when going portable or ultra
portable. I do use the internal K2 keyer (B), sometimes, when going
portable.

It may be much to ask a rig manufacture to implement the "feel" of every
keyer and key permutation implemented through the years.

I bring my key and keyer to Field Day. If it was more then once a year,
I would make a key/keyer go-box!

John KN5L



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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Vic K2VCO]

You guys got me interested, and I have a keyer that supports it, so I tried it.

Couldn't send C's or K's. Both of which are in my call!

On 8/12/2012 1:25 PM, stan levandowski wrote:
> For those Listers who don't know what Ultimatic keying is all about -
> and are afraid to ask  - here is a description by Chuck Olson WB9KZY and
> some references also: http://wb9kzy.com/ultimat.txt
>
> 73, Stan WB2LQF
>
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-- 
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

To answer your question, after 20 years of using a straight key and bug, I
built a discrete-component CMOS iambic keyer in the 1970's. 

I did start out slow but speed came quickly, IIRC, as my fingers learned the
correct pattern of movements for each character. But I had to do the same
thing when I learned to use a bug in the 1950's. Knowing Morse doesn't mean
one's body knows how to operate a particular key to generate it. That takes
practice. 

I was pleasantly surprised to find that the iambic keyer built into the K2
and K3 was as comfortable to use as my old homebrew keyer. 

Unfortunately, I found that I could -not- use a bug and the iambic keyer (in
iambic mode) interchangeably. My "muscle memory" was too strong and I found
myself squeezing the bug paddle. Also my timing on the bug was lousy since
the keyer did all the timing and spacing for me. So, after about 25 years on
the iambic keyer, my bug won out after another re-training period -- at
least as long as I enjoy sending CW with it. However, I have gone back to
the iambic keyer from time to time to load CW memories, etc., and iambic
fingering comes back in a few seconds.

But I enjoy learning physical skills like that. It's part of the fun of Ham
radio for me. Otherwise I'd not have bothered switching to an iambic keyer
and then back to the bug. I don't think I'm part of a silent "majority".
Most likely I'm part of a substantial "minority" - either on an iambic keyer
or on a bug. 

73, Ron AC7AC


-Original Message-

3.  How many operators can truly say that they make use of iambic features?
Could a poll be conducted? I think to learn iambic, one would have to start
using it at very slow speeds to begin with, and unless one did this at the
start of one's ham career, who goes back to slow speeds just to learn
iambic? Silent majority?

 

73,

Erik K7TV


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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Fred Jensen]

I believe this was done several years ago on this list during a previous 
Ultimatic thread.  Unfortunately, keyer modes are right up with 
religions for many folks ... I recall the discourse was "spirited."  I 
do not recall the ultimate outcome, if there was one, but I do remember 
the "spirit!"

73,

Fred K6DGW [keyer mode = SIA ... "Slap It Around."]
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 8/12/2012 1:27 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:

> 3.  How many operators can truly say that they make use of iambic features?
> Could a poll be conducted?


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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[stan levandowski]

For those Listers who don't know what Ultimatic keying is all about - 
and are afraid to ask  - here is a description by Chuck Olson WB9KZY and 
some references also: http://wb9kzy.com/ultimat.txt

73, Stan WB2LQF

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[Gary Marklund]

Me too!

Gary KJ7RT

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 12, 2012, at 10:55, "Erik Basilier"  wrote:

> I too support the request to add Ultimatic to Elecraft rigs. I don't have
> the fine motor control of my fingers required to make use of iambic
> features. I treat the dual paddles the same as a single paddle for the most
> part. However, the dual paddle feels better than a single paddle, probably
> because pressing one of the paddles gets a result after a movement of one
> gap space, while a single paddle means the paddle travels two gap spacings
> within a character. Given my way of using dual paddles, the keyer logic just
> needs to be as forgiving as possible in handling the inconsistencies in my
> finger motions. Years ago when I built the external keyer with Ultimatic
> mode, I tried it and felt that it made my keying more consistent. At this
> time I have almost zero time for ham radio, and haven't plugged in the
> external keyer after returning from FD. When I get time, I should test my
> maximum sending speed with vs without Ultimatic. I do know that just using
> the K3's keyer, I start making excessive errors if I try to send faster than
> about 25 wpm. Perhaps Ultimatic will let me go faster.
> 
> 
> 
> 73,
> 
> Erik K7TV 
> 
> 
> 
>> Yes please, I've been waiting for this for a few years now!
> 
> 73 de David, M0XDF (K3 #174, P3 #108)
> 
> --
> 
> I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him.
> -Galileo Galilei, physicist and astronomer (1564-1642)
> 
> 
> 
> On 11 Aug 2012, at 16:32, emann...@csc.uvic.ca wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> I third the motion!
> 
>> 
> 
>> I have been building external boxes to provide Ultimatic keying mode 
> 
>> for about 25 years.
> 
>> 
> 
>> It would be VERY nice to have it internal to the K3/KX3...
> 
>> 
> 
>> Eric
> 
>> VA7DZ
> 
>> __
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying

[David Ferrington, M0XDF]

Yes please, I've been waiting for this for a few years now!
73 de David, M0XDF (K3 #174, P3 #108)
-- 
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from
him. -Galileo Galilei, physicist and astronomer (1564-1642)

On 11 Aug 2012, at 16:32, emann...@csc.uvic.ca wrote:

> I third the motion!
> 
> I have been building external boxes to provide Ultimatic keying mode for
> about 25 years.
> 
> It would be VERY nice to have it internal to
> the K3/KX3...
> 
> Eric
> VA7DZ
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying in KX1/K1?

[Sam Morgan]

Fred Jensen wrote:
If anyone would like to refresh my memory on Ultimatic keyers, I'd be 
happy to read it.  


http://www.ac6rm.net/mailarchive/html/elecraft-list/2005-02/msg00563.html

--
GB & 73's
KA5OAI
Sam Morgan
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying in KX1/K1?

[Fred Jensen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Still, someday in some future rom upgrade it
would be nice to have Ultimatic keying on board in the K*
rigs.


If anyone would like to refresh my memory on Ultimatic keyers, I'd be 
happy to read it.  I remember a QST article at least 200 years ago about 
it, I think it might have been on the cover too.  I know about Iambic, I 
have an Iambic-A keying type [and O+ blood type].  Iambic-B is hard for 
me, however I don't really know the technical difference between them, I 
just know that B adds dits I didn't send.


Given the amount of traffic on the Elecraft list these days, it would be 
good [and kind to everyone else who undoubtedly all know the answer] to 
reply to me direct :-)


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7
- www.cqp.org
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying in KX1/K1?

[n2htt]

Thanks to all who offered comments I went with an N0XAS PicoKeyer 
(hamgadgets.com) - this is pretty much the same keyer as the RockMite upgrade 
chip, in a small stand-alone board.Easy build, works great and has Ultimatic 
mode.Still, someday in some future rom upgrade it would be nice to have 
Ultimatic keying on board in the K* rigs.73,Mike
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying in KX1/K1?

[Don Wilhelm]

The K1EL keyers also support Ultimatic mode.  They are small inexpensive 
PC boards.  I use the K12 to provide Ultimatic mode, much easier for me.


I too would like to see the KX1 and K1 rigs provide Ultimatic keying. 
The K2 is not a problem for me - the external keyer works fine, but it 
would be nice to have Ultimatic 'inside' the K2 and K3 too.


73,
Don W3FPR

Paul wrote:

Mike,
It's my understanding that the MODE is a function of the chip being 
used. At this time I know of three Ultimatic units. The cube keyer that 
goes with that mini Palm paddle key (the newer cube), the offerings from 
Jackson Harbor - I think the PK4 chip (that's used the new Palm), and 
there's a keyer for about $17 that is constantly for sale on that 
Auction site (I think it comes up when searching on QRP) Unfortunately, 
I don't believe the older PK3 chip is plug to plug compatible. That is, 
you can't take a keyer based on the PK3 Chip and plug in the PK4.


I think the circuit board for the basic keyer (not a lot of memories) is 
pretty small. So you might be able to stick in inside the rig and just 
wire it to the key jack - or you can install it as a small box at the 
key end - sort of in-line with your key.

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RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic keying in KX1/K1?

[Paul]

Mike,
It's my understanding that the MODE is a function of the chip being 
used. At this time I know of three Ultimatic units. The cube keyer 
that goes with that mini Palm paddle key (the newer cube), the 
offerings from Jackson Harbor - I think the PK4 chip (that's used the 
new Palm), and there's a keyer for about $17 that is constantly for 
sale on that Auction site (I think it comes up when searching on QRP) 
Unfortunately, I don't believe the older PK3 chip is plug to plug 
compatible. That is, you can't take a keyer based on the PK3 Chip and 
plug in the PK4.


I think the circuit board for the basic keyer (not a lot of memories) 
is pretty small. So you might be able to stick in inside the rig and 
just wire it to the key jack - or you can install it as a small box 
at the key end - sort of in-line with your key.


I became aware of ultramatic - an old Ten Tec mode - in discussion in 
the FISTS newsgroup. Like you (and me) many did not like the iambic 
keyer action but wanted to use a dual paddle. There was a great cheer 
in the newsgroup when a member reminded them of Ultramatic mode. It 
was just what they wanted.


Good luck and 73,
Paul
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Thom R. Lacosta]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Dan KB6NU wrote:


In addition to having an Ultimatic keying option, the N0XAS PicoKeyer
(www.hamgadgets.com) also has a bug emulator mode.


And it would be neat if it had a selection of various "swings".I miss my
bugand being able to swing a bit...

73,Thom-k3hrn
www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page,
Free Classified Ads for amateur radio, QRP IRC channel
Elecraft Owners Database
www.tlchost.net/  Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month
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RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[EricJ]

 That would take care of my "dream keyer" idea. Heh heh heh. Actually, I
have gone the other way with keyers. I eliminated it altogether by
connecting a straight key directly to the K1 jack! It allows me to make dits
and dahs my way. Also turned out to be a hardy choice for the trail. It is
smaller, lighter and less fragile than any paddle of comparable quality.

Eric
KE6US

-Original Message-
From: Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:10 AM
To: EricJ
Cc: Elecraft Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

One step away from a bug in that a string of dahs not just one dah comes out
when you hit and hold the dah paddle. There is a circuit in "Solid State
Design for the Radio Amateur" page 178 that I think does this using three
NE555 'timer' ICs, VERY simple, with a pot controlling speed. The Dah, Dit
and Spacing  times can also be adjusted to suit the user's taste. The
authors were discussing applications of the NE555,  not keyers as such. CMOS
ICs would keep the power draw low.
73,
Geoff.
GM4ESD


- Original Message -
From: "EricJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

>
> Here's what I want. A keyer that generates dits when I push one 
> paddle. It generates dahs when I push the other paddle. When I push 
> the dits paddle while making dahs, I don't want it to do ANYTHING--I'm
busy making dahs.
> Likewise, when I push the dahs paddle when making dits, I want it to 
> keep making dits. Not dahs, not dah-dits. Dits for dits and dahs for 
> dahs. Why has that been so much to ask of a keyer?
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Dan KB6NU]

In addition to having an Ultimatic keying option, the N0XAS PicoKeyer
(www.hamgadgets.com) also has a bug emulator mode.

73, Dan KB6NU

- Original Message -
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Elecraft Discussion List'" 
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.


> Rick wrote:
> I would like to see a squeeze option that would give a steady tone when
the
> paddle contacts are both closed.  This would restore keying control to the
> operator.
> ---
> Now we're almost back to something I asked for several years ago; A "bug
> emulator" mode in which the dit side makes dits and the dah side simply
keys
> the tx like any self-respecting "bug". Push the dah paddle and you get a
dah
> until you let go!
>
> I know, it can be done with diodes on the K2. Tie two diodes to the key
> inputs that connect to the dash contacts. I do it even more accurately
with
> the K2. I plug my bug into it!
>
> But the KX1 is just a little clumsy with a key bigger than it is hooked
on -
> and not nearly as portable. So it'd be nice for those of us who like bugs
if
> the KX1's paddles could behave like one.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

One step away from a bug in that a string of dahs not just one dah comes out
when you hit and hold the dah paddle. There is a circuit in "Solid State
Design for the Radio Amateur" page 178 that I think does this using three
NE555 'timer' ICs, VERY simple, with a pot controlling speed. The Dah, Dit
and Spacing  times can also be adjusted to suit the user's taste. The
authors were discussing applications of the NE555,  not keyers as such. CMOS
ICs would keep the power draw low.
73,
Geoff.
GM4ESD


- Original Message -
From: "EricJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

>
> Here's what I want. A keyer that generates dits when I push one paddle. It
> generates dahs when I push the other paddle. When I push the dits paddle
> while making dahs, I don't want it to do ANYTHING--I'm busy making dahs.
> Likewise, when I push the dahs paddle when making dits, I want it to keep
> making dits. Not dahs, not dah-dits. Dits for dits and dahs for dahs. Why
> has that been so much to ask of a keyer?
>

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RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Rick wrote:
I would like to see a squeeze option that would give a steady tone when the
paddle contacts are both closed.  This would restore keying control to the
operator.
---
Now we're almost back to something I asked for several years ago; A "bug
emulator" mode in which the dit side makes dits and the dah side simply keys
the tx like any self-respecting "bug". Push the dah paddle and you get a dah
until you let go!

I know, it can be done with diodes on the K2. Tie two diodes to the key
inputs that connect to the dash contacts. I do it even more accurately with
the K2. I plug my bug into it! 

But the KX1 is just a little clumsy with a key bigger than it is hooked on -
and not nearly as portable. So it'd be nice for those of us who like bugs if
the KX1's paddles could behave like one. 

Ron AC7AC


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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Rick Dettinger]

I would like to see a squeeze option that would give a steady tone when the
paddle contacts are both closed.  This would restore keying control to the
operator.  I normally use a bug or straight key but use paddles with the KX1
when portable.  The bug is more than 5 times as heavy as the rig and does
not travel well.73 - Rick - K7MW
- Original Message -
From: "Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy"
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.


> >>
>

> ..
>
> Confession time, have yet to master fully this new fangled Iambic Keying
> thing, so use the twin paddles like a single paddle bug. But the CW is
> 'mechanical' not like bug produced CW, and a 'friendly' dit daaah dit
> cannot be sent!
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Douglas Westover]

That's exactly the way I use my keyer..never really got the
hang of iambic! (old dogs and new tricks??) I find it to
work perfectly well!

Doug
W6JD

- Original Message -
From: "Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.


> Ron, AC7AC wrote:
> >
> > (Probably. After 20 years on an Iambic keyer I went back to a Bug
because
> > it's more work and more satisfying. So don't ever expect me to be
logical,
> > Mr. Spock!)
> >
>
>

> ..
>
> Confession time, have yet to master fully this new fangled Iambic Keying
> thing, so use the twin paddles like a single paddle bug. But the CW is
> 'mechanical' not like bug produced CW, and a 'friendly' dit daaah dit
> cannot be sent!
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[John Pfeifer]

Another solution for getting Ultimatic keying "inside" a K2 would be the PK4 
keyer from Jackson Harbor Press.  It's very small, only 1" x 1.5".  Jackson 
Harbor's contest keyer, the Island Keyer II, also supports Ultimatic.  Both of 
these keyers are available directly from Jackson Harbor Press at:

  http://home.att.net/~jacksonharbor/ham.htm 

or from Morse Express at:

  http://www.mtechnologies.com/jhp/

Jackson Harbor also has an explanation of Ultimatic keying at:

  http://home.att.net/~jacksonharbor/ultimat.txt

I haven't tried either one of these keyers, but I do have the older PK3 (inside 
my Palm Radio Code Cube) and like it.  Unfortunately, it doesn't do Ultimatic.

73, 
John Pfeifer - KL0WN

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Dan KB6NU]

The difference between iambic and Ultimatic keying is that when you hold
down both paddles, the Ultimatic keyer sends a series of elements
corresponding to the last paddle closed instead of sending alternate dits
and dashes as an iambic keyer would. For example, the sequence L on, R on
would cause an iambic keyer to send di-dah-di-dah. An Ultimatic keyer
would, however, send di-dah-dah-dah.

If you count the number of paddle movements, you can see where this might be
advantageous. There's no advantage when sending a K. The sequence is R on, L
on, L off, R off for both iambic and Ultimatic keyers. Take X, however. When
using iambic keying, it's R on, R off, L on, L off, R on, R off. With
Ultimatic keying, the number of paddle movements is the same as for the
iambic - R on, L on, L off, R off. - a savings of two paddle movements. You
just hold down the left paddle a little longer for the X then for the K.

Another keyer that now supports Ultimatic keying is the N0XAS PicoKeyer
(www.hamgadgets.com). It's only $18, and fits in a mini Altoids tin. I have
no affiliation with the company; I just think it's a cool little keyer.

73!

Dan KB6NU
---
President, ARROW Comm. Assn. (www.w8pgw.org)
ARRL MI Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
CW Geek (FISTS #9342)
Read my ham radio blog at www.blurty.com/~kb6nu

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.


> What features does Ultimatic Keying have? And what keyers offer  it?
>
> 73,
>
> Tom   N0SS
> =
> This from an OHR ad:
>
> "Ultimatic is a pre-iambic keying mode in which the result  of a squeeze
is
> that the keyer will switch to the last lever pressed rather than
alternating
> dits and dahs."
>
>
> Bill  K3UJ
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Able2fly]

What features does Ultimatic Keying have? And what keyers offer  it?

73,

Tom   N0SS
=
This from an OHR ad:
 
"Ultimatic is a pre-iambic keying mode in which the result  of a squeeze is 
that the keyer will switch to the last lever pressed rather than  alternating 
dits and dahs."
 

Bill  K3UJ
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Ron, AC7AC wrote:
>
> (Probably. After 20 years on an Iambic keyer I went back to a Bug because
> it's more work and more satisfying. So don't ever expect me to be logical,
> Mr. Spock!)
>


..

Confession time, have yet to master fully this new fangled Iambic Keying
thing, so use the twin paddles like a single paddle bug. But the CW is
'mechanical' not like bug produced CW, and a 'friendly' dit daaah dit
cannot be sent!
73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[designer]

There was a discussion about this just recently in the BrassPounders 
news group on Yahoo. The attractiveness of Ultimatic is not its 
effeciency - it is attractive to a number of cw operators because of 
its ineffeciency! That is, its forgiving coordination requirements.


I bought a very nice iambic paddle - but just couldn't "control" it - 
all those unintentioned dits or dahs. So I got a single level paddle 
(vibrokeyer, Kent SP-1, etc.) and that worked okay. But moving an 
object left/right has a little more fatigue factor than just a 
squeeze.


Someone brought up Ultimatic mode and mentioned the Jackson Harbor 
Keyer II - which provides Ultimatic. A cheer was raised in the news 
group. Now those of us who are timing challenged can use the same 
high quality, and plentiful, selection of iambic paddles. So we only 
squeeze the paddles, no side-to-side as with a single level paddle. 
And we get more predicable results.


The "four sound" letters sometimes take more effort than iambic - but 
look at a "P". squeeze and hold the dit, squeeze the dah to insert 
two dahs, release the dah for another dit. Not so bad.


But again - it wasn't an argument about which is "better" or more 
efficient. It was just that some of us have struggled with the auto 
dit/dah of iambic and Ultimatic  mode lets us use our iambic paddles 
but in a more relaxed manner.


73,
Paul, K7NHB
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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[n2fq]

Thanks to all who responded here and by private email.
I have found an external keyer with my needs by K1EL.

Just wanted to ask before I get another do dat on the cluttered desktop.
I figure that with the resources on this list that perhaps
someone might have made a mod or such.

Please delete any references I made to iambic A or B. I should have been
more specific about my inquiry.
.
thanks to all.


--

73
Fernando N2FQ/NNNØJYM 
San Jose, CA



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RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

dave belsley, w1euy

It's my understanding (though I've never used it) that it responds to 
a squeeze by repeating the last side closed.  Thus, holding the dot 
side produces a string of dots, dash side dashes.  Squeeze dot/dash 
give a dot followed by a string of dashes, while dash/dot produces a 
dash followed by a string of dots.  There is no iambic element.

---

Interesting! I caught Tom's query and was very interested in the answer
myself. 

I can't see the advantage to normal non-iambic keying though... 

When I send a "C" using an iambic keyer, I just squeeze, being sure to hit
the "dah" side first. Two finger movements for one complete 'C' (plus
letting go!) 

But it'd take four if the dashes repeated, the same as if I was using it in
non-iambic mode. 

A "Q" on the iambic keyer takes two finger movements too. Hit the "dah" and
during the second dash, tap the "dit" and I get a "Q" with the dit inserted
after the second dah with logic-perfect precision. 

It sounds like the Ultimatic would require as many finger movements as a
"standard" keyer. 

Am I missing something? 

(Probably. After 20 years on an Iambic keyer I went back to a Bug because
it's more work and more satisfying. So don't ever expect me to be logical,
Mr. Spock!)

Ron AC7AC


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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[David A. Belsley]

Tom:
  It's my understanding (though I've never used it) that it responds to 
a squeeze by repeating the last side closed.  Thus, holding the dot 
side produces a string of dots, dash side dashes.  Squeeze dot/dash 
give a dot followed by a string of dashes, while dash/dot produces a 
dash followed by a string of dots.  There is no iambic element.


best wishes,

dave belsley, w1euy


On Feb 18, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Tom Hammond wrote:


Fernando:

Care to enlighten us with a bit of description of "Ultimatic 
Keying"...?


I don't use the K2's keyer AS an iambic keyer, even though the 
feature's available.


What features does Ultimatic Keying have? And what keyers offer it?

73,

Tom   N0SS

At 03:45 PM 2/18/05, you wrote:

Hello.

Is there a way to get the K2 to have Ultimatic Keying ?
I presume it has to do with the base firmware.

I never developed the fine art of iambic (neither A or B) keying, so
I more or less slap the paddle left and right when I'm sending.
The HexKey stays put, by the way.
From what I've read in another list it might be right for me.

Any quick mod that can be done or is anyone looking into it?

I have looked at the schematic
and found the keyer stuff in the Control Board at J7,
stopped their since that's my technical extend.

tnx.

--

73
Fernando N2FQ/NNNØJYM San Jose, CA


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Re: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Tom Hammond]

Fernando:

Care to enlighten us with a bit of description of "Ultimatic Keying"...?

I don't use the K2's keyer AS an iambic keyer, even though the feature's 
available.


What features does Ultimatic Keying have? And what keyers offer it?

73,

Tom   N0SS

At 03:45 PM 2/18/05, you wrote:

Hello.

Is there a way to get the K2 to have Ultimatic Keying ?
I presume it has to do with the base firmware.

I never developed the fine art of iambic (neither A or B) keying, so
I more or less slap the paddle left and right when I'm sending.
The HexKey stays put, by the way.
From what I've read in another list it might be right for me.

Any quick mod that can be done or is anyone looking into it?

I have looked at the schematic
and found the keyer stuff in the Control Board at J7,
stopped their since that's my technical extend.

tnx.

--

73
Fernando N2FQ/NNNØJYM San Jose, CA


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RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[Brian Mury]

On Fri, 2005-18-02 at 17:17 -0500, W3FPR - Don Wilhelm wrote:
> The keying is all done inside the microprocessor chip, so your best
> solution
> would be to opt for an external keyer.

... or a single lever paddle!

-- 
73, Brian
VE7NGR

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RE: [Elecraft] Ultimatic Keying.

[W3FPR - Don Wilhelm]

Fernando,

The keying is all done inside the microprocessor chip, so your best solution
would be to opt for an external keyer.  The K1EL K12 keyer can do Ultimatic
http://k1el.tripod.com/k12info.html, the OHR Basic Iambic Keyer also states
Ultimatic mode http://www.mtechnologies.com/ohr/keyer.htm, I don't know
about others, but a search of the web should reveal something.

73,
Don W3FPR


> -Original Message-
>
> Is there a way to get the K2 to have Ultimatic Keying ?
> I presume it has to do with the base firmware.
>
> I never developed the fine art of iambic (neither A or B) keying, so
> I more or less slap the paddle left and right when I'm sending.
> The HexKey stays put, by the way.
>  From what I've read in another list it might be right for me.
>
> Any quick mod that can be done or is anyone looking into it?
>
> I have looked at the schematic
> and found the keyer stuff in the Control Board at J7,
> stopped their since that's my technical extend.
>
> tnx.
>
>


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