Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I like the idea of a semi rolling release. Software like Geary or Files can't be frozen during the whole next cycle, can you imagine not receiving the search mail update until Luna+1? Right now I don't feel like Elementary is Beta, yes there are bugs that must be fixed, but it is great to know that every now an then your OS improves by itself, update manager feels like magic. My biggest concern is about the old libraries in Ubuntu 12.04, Elementary won't attract software developers without updated libraries. This can be a handicap if developers prefer the software center from Ubuntu and their new QT IDE. If elementary wants to be easy and different, a rolling release or a semi rolling release can be revolutionary. Despite it is not new, it looks innovative for non technical people. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Sergio Tortosa Benedito serto...@gmail.com wrote: If we had to change distribution one of the most important to discuss would be which type of packages should be used (rpm, deb ...) and whether we want elementary as rolling release or not. Now my two cents, if I had to choose one package management one option to keep in mind would be pisi, it seems to me a great package type (it's written in python and the packages use xml and python) while I don't really like the fact that it is written in python, xml and python should be very easy to use. However, I would really like to see elementary as half-rolling release, this is, the core (audio, graphics) are frozen and only updates to fix security problems, however the other components follow the traditional rolling release model. Maybe it would be better if this roling release would be a conservative one.With rolling release we could delete versions.Also, rolling release would be more on pair on elementary's launch model when it's ready. El mar, 9 de jul 2013 a las 11:07 ,Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff ser...@elementaryos.org escribió: ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as many platforms as possible. It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. +1 People who are not convinced and want more info on the topic can hit me up for a lecture on Why it's important to have downstreams and spread your technology. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
People can add PPAs to Debian, but unfortunately Launchpad doesn't support Debian releases as a target[1]. That said, using the Precise target on Stable etc. should work. There are other options though, if Elementary considered Fedora as a base distro (which has an awesome up-to-date GNOME stack), then you could make use of the Koji build system[2] for building packages. It's not quite as nice as a PPA (you still need to host the built packages in a repository somewhere) but the majority of the work is done. My opinion is that from now on, each Ubuntu release will get more and more incompatible with GNOME upstream (Mir being the #1 issue, but also not using SystemD is going to start causing issues) and as Elementary is heavily reliant on technologies such as Gtk+ and Mutter it would be wise to start considering options. Perhaps even just getting a Fedora/Debian based spin of Elementary going so that a transition later wouldn't be so much work. If Luna + 1 continues to base on Ubuntu, then I'm hoping that Gtk+ is at least compiled with Wayland support (as it is now) because then you could update Pantheon for Wayland and everything should work smoothly. If not, and everything is forced to run through XMir, then you are not going to benefit from the frame syncing magic that's inherent in Wayland and Mir, and you'll end up with loads of weird edge case bugs[3] and potentially issues with multi monitor support[4], and of course a lack of support from upstream Gtk+. Just my 2p Luke. [1] This has always seemed wrong to me as it prevents developers targeting upstream [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Koji [3] The KWin developer has already spotted this in action [4] I think this is being worked on... On 9 July 2013 06:18, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: But I'm talking about moving away from Ubuntu as a base distro, not moving away from Launchpad. Don't people add PPAs to Debian already? Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 22:09 -0700, Manish Sinha escreveu: I do get the gist of what Cody is saying. It's basically that the PPA ecosystem has so much potential and use that any other shortcomings of Ubuntu at the moment is negated just by the PPA ecosystem which makes delivering software to end users a breeze. Personally I would like that elementary is based on debian unstable or testing (if unstable is too unstable), but the PPA ecosystem is just too damn attractive. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Luke Benstead, the info about frame sync issues in XMir is EXACTLY what I feared. Could you post a link to the original post by KWin developer to the thread about Mir? It should be right next to this one. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I share Conscious User's concerns. In fact, bazaar is in exactly the same situation now. Canonical has limited resources and they have to choose where to allocate them. Moreover, the status of GNOME stack in Ubuntu repos is already daunting. The indicator API split, the online accounts split, the fallback stack split, the systemd split, now the display server split - they all make Ubuntu more and more incompatible with upstream. But I have a plan! My idea is to get our packages into all distros we're interested in as potential base distros by providing packager's documentation (started at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PrzhK7j3ljgAeYVgbQtdc7OHdMhjkn5f143XDyUMPDc/edit) and organizing a sprint/hackfest ( https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/packaging-hackfest-luna). With that done, we can easily trick people into making pantheon spins of the relevant base distros. This way we'll have several backup spins of Luna which we'll be able to easily make our main OS if needed. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
+1 On Jul 9, 2013 12:03 AM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of your replies seem to be relevant or even directly related to what I said. Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
+1 Tricking other distros...great idea! :P On Jul 9, 2013 3:23 PM, Craig webe...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Jul 9, 2013 12:03 AM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of your replies seem to be relevant or even directly related to what I said. Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Yeah, i'm going to bring it up again. Don't kill me.
Why not just use something like LibAppImage that handles all the
dependencies and produces a distro-independent binary. PPA's are powerful
and I understand that, but even with LibAppImage it can take a package from
a PPA download any missing dependencies from a base system and bundle them.
It's early in the AM so forgive me.
But essentially you could just build a base system with Fedora, Debian, etc
etc. Then distribute the eOS Apps via LibAppImage Binaries and they would
work across all platforms. PPA's are great don't get me wrong. But being
able to download one simple binary file for an app is even more awesome; or
build that app binary. Especially when becoming distro-agnostic.
[1] https://github.com/probonopd/AppImageKit
[2] http://portablelinuxapps.org/docs/1.0/AppImageKit.pdf
{3]
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/07/distro-agnostic-packaging-making-appimages
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff
ser...@elementaryos.org wrote:
I share Conscious User's concerns. In fact, bazaar is in exactly the same
situation now. Canonical has limited resources and they have to choose
where to allocate them.
Moreover, the status of GNOME stack in Ubuntu repos is already daunting.
The indicator API split, the online accounts split, the fallback stack
split, the systemd split, now the display server split - they all make
Ubuntu more and more incompatible with upstream.
But I have a plan!
My idea is to get our packages into all distros we're interested in as
potential base distros by providing packager's documentation (started at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PrzhK7j3ljgAeYVgbQtdc7OHdMhjkn5f143XDyUMPDc/edit)
and organizing a sprint/hackfest (
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/packaging-hackfest-luna).
With that done, we can easily trick people into making pantheon spins of
the relevant base distros. This way we'll have several backup spins of
Luna which we'll be able to easily make our main OS if needed.
--
Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff
OS architect @ elementary
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--
*--**--**
Chris Timberlake*
Technical Architect
Phone: 515-707-5109
gam...@gmail.com
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
+1 On 9 Jul 2013 18:09, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Em Ter, 2013-07-09 às 18:42 +0200, Christian Dywan escreveu: A GNOME user will say exactly the same about Elementary. Ditching the shell, forking the window manager, discarding all apps, adding Contractor… I am a GNOME user, and I can assure you that it's not the same thing. Elementary forks, adds, and removes, while ubuntu patches and modifies. More importantly, Ubuntu sometimes patches and modifies without changing APIs and namespaces, so app developers sometimes expect one thing and have another. That's the main issue. If an app developer uses Mutter documentation to access Gala and something goes wrong, that's his fault. If an app developer uses Shell documentation to access Pantheon and something goes wrong, that's his fault. If an app developer has non-documented rendering differences due to Ubuntu patches, despite doing exactly what the GTK documentation tells him to, that's *not* his fault. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I basically wanted to say what Christian said, but I see your point as well. While neither us nor Ubuntu seem to want to align with the full GNOME stack any longer, we are a little bit closer as far as Gtk/Vala/Mutter/Clutter/etc. There does seem to be some concerns about stuff like SystemD, Wayland, etc and what our full future stack may be. So I think we should definitely keep our minds open. That said, I'm not sure the best approach is to just throw out tons of packages and see what sticks. It might be better to discuss exactly what our ideal stack consists of and then re-evaluate who offers what is closest to that. Best Regards, Daniel Foré El jul 9, 2013, a las 10:09 a.m., Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com escribió: Em Ter, 2013-07-09 às 18:42 +0200, Christian Dywan escreveu: A GNOME user will say exactly the same about Elementary. Ditching the shell, forking the window manager, discarding all apps, adding Contractor… I am a GNOME user, and I can assure you that it's not the same thing. Elementary forks, adds, and removes, while ubuntu patches and modifies. More importantly, Ubuntu sometimes patches and modifies without changing APIs and namespaces, so app developers sometimes expect one thing and have another. That's the main issue. If an app developer uses Mutter documentation to access Gala and something goes wrong, that's his fault. If an app developer uses Shell documentation to access Pantheon and something goes wrong, that's his fault. If an app developer has non-documented rendering differences due to Ubuntu patches, despite doing exactly what the GTK documentation tells him to, that's *not* his fault. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: While neither us nor Ubuntu seem to want to align with the full GNOME stack any longer, we are a little bit closer as far as Gtk/Vala/Mutter/Clutter/etc. Actually elementary is not patching existing gnome components leading to unexpected behavior. Addition and removal components from GNOME stack should be fine as long as the leftover gnome components don't start acting up. There does seem to be some concerns about stuff like SystemD, Wayland, etc and what our full future stack may be. So I think we should definitely keep our minds open. If I had to put in my two cents, I would suggest to stick to upstream GNOME as much as possible esp when it comes to lower level components like wayland and systemd. Those are components which need lots of time, expertise and patience to work on. It would be in best interest of elementary to use the GNOME base and add it's own apps, system integration components on top of it. Like contractor, granite, panetheon etc. As far as I know, the aim of elementary was to provide an excellent user experience, which I see still exists. Elementary should focus on tightly integrated desktop just like gnome is doing. That said, I'm not sure the best approach is to just throw out tons of packages and see what sticks. It might be better to discuss exactly what our ideal stack consists of and then re-evaluate who offers what is closest to that. ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as many platforms as possible. It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. - Manish -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as many platforms as possible. It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. +1 People who are not convinced and want more info on the topic can hit me up for a lecture on Why it's important to have downstreams and spread your technology. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of your replies seem to be relevant or even directly related to what I said. Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I do get the gist of what Cody is saying. It's basically that the PPA ecosystem has so much potential and use that any other shortcomings of Ubuntu at the moment is negated just by the PPA ecosystem which makes delivering software to end users a breeze. Personally I would like that elementary is based on debian unstable or testing (if unstable is too unstable), but the PPA ecosystem is just too damn attractive. - Manish On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of your replies seem to be relevant or even directly related to what I said. Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself because no one was currently working on them. This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall stability and speed of fixing bugs. This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana projects which might now never get any more polish. And this might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still treats it as a first-class citizen. It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
But I'm talking about moving away from Ubuntu as a base distro, not moving away from Launchpad. Don't people add PPAs to Debian already? Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 22:09 -0700, Manish Sinha escreveu: I do get the gist of what Cody is saying. It's basically that the PPA ecosystem has so much potential and use that any other shortcomings of Ubuntu at the moment is negated just by the PPA ecosystem which makes delivering software to end users a breeze. Personally I would like that elementary is based on debian unstable or testing (if unstable is too unstable), but the PPA ecosystem is just too damn attractive. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
