Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff]

2012/9/5 David Gomes 

> >There should be a recommended set of tools for a programmer to begin with.
> Well, we don't have to recommend anything other than elementary OS.
> Recommend using cmake and Vala? No need to recommend those, any new
> developer is forced to use those.
>

Nobody is forced to use Vala or even CMake.


> What "set of tools" are you recommending? I really want to know what
> "libraries" and what "tools" you think would ship with this elementary
> OS Developer Version.
>

Same goes for the SDK metapackage. But I guess it's everything that's
described in the developer guide. SDK can be only discussed in conjunction
with the dev guide IMHO.

Shipping documentation would indeed make it easier for new developers,
> but it's just so easy to install the documentation and the libraries
> that I don't get why it should be done.
>

Looks like it's not easy enough if dedicated OS spins get proposed.


> Regarding text editors, we already ship Scratch (which is more than
> enough) with elementary OS ;)
>

AFAIK Scratch as it is isn't enough for coding. It has the devhelp and
terminal plugins and it's OK for my Gedit/GCC habits, but a real developer
could/should expect a better tool. The good thing about Scratch is that
it's mind-blowingly extensible; it's a base for the work-in-progress Vala
IDE and, going forward, a shared component for a set of language- or even
project-specific IDEs.

-- 
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OS architect @ elementary
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[David Gomes]

>There should be a recommended set of tools for a programmer to begin with.
Well, we don't have to recommend anything other than elementary OS.
Recommend using cmake and Vala? No need to recommend those, any new
developer is forced to use those.

What "set of tools" are you recommending? I really want to know what
"libraries" and what "tools" you think would ship with this elementary
OS Developer Version.

Shipping documentation would indeed make it easier for new developers,
but it's just so easy to install the documentation and the libraries
that I don't get why it should be done.

I get your idea guys, I just don't see why it's so "good". I mean, one
of the reasons we base elementary OS on Ubuntu is that we have a
package manager with over thirty thousand packages.

Regarding text editors, we already ship Scratch (which is more than
enough) with elementary OS ;)

On 9/4/12, Voldyman  wrote:
> I agree with munchor's dog fooding reference but do not agree with the other
> part.
> When i started contributing to elementary project (which is quite recently
> ;)) i had never done serious linux app development. I came from a mainly web
> and c# for desktop background although after completely moving to linux few
> years ago the c# part had stopped. It was a little hard
> For me to find good tools for development, the guys at #elementary-dev (you
> all) suggested scratch-text-editor which i couldn't you (still can't) so i
> continued using Sublime Text which i had been using for web dev and now i am
> pretty comfortable with it.
>
> There should be a recommended set of tools for a programmer to begin with.
> He/she can later pick up or drop tools according to their preference.
>
> Voldyman
> On 04-Sep-2012, at 11:31 PM, David Gomes  wrote:
>
>> Shipping more packages in my opinion is anti-developping philosophy. Each
>> developer has his own preferred tools. Shipping more text editors, more
>> libraries, etc is just more bloat in my opinion. Ubuntu and its
>> derivatives have enough bloat already, since most of these distributions
>> ship with more than 2000 packages. In my system I have around 1000
>> packages installed, but it came with around 600.
>>
>> Besides, developers should face bugs. It's the best way we can know about
>> them and fix them (see
>> http://elementaryos.org/journal/eating-our-own-dog-food).
>>
>> If you want the libraries needed for developing our software, just use
>> "sudo apt-get source", any developer should know how to get this kind of
>> tools. Using bazaar to branch and build our tools from source is also
>> something our developers must know how to do.
>>
>> This "iso" has no real advantages in my honest opinion.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Darcy Brás da Silva
>>  wrote:
>> Today while talking to some fine folks at #elementary-dev that go by the
>> handles of
>> victored and voluntatefaber , I wondered if there was any iso build
>> ready to start working/developing
>> for elementary.
>> Now what would be the advantages of having the extra work on getting
>> this iso out.
>>
>> 1) Errors and bugs can be very damaging to a development environment,
>> which lead to a constant fight wen testing highly unstable
>> packages. This makes the developer hell much bigger since everyone tends
>> to test and run this packages in a somewhat different configuration.
>> In case of failure, the developer then needs re-set the development
>> environment to a known stage. This can be very time consuming,
>> that could be in better use.
>> It would also reduce the potential hidden errors, and the known phrase
>> "That's weird, It works in my machine".
>>
>> 2) Individuals that want to start developing in/for elementary could
>> start right away hacking their way in. And if for some reason they mess
>> up big time,
>> guess what ? The iso is right there, re-install, start fresh.
>>
>> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and possibly
>> limiting to the fact that having everything shipped, would mean larger
>> iso images
>> which then could be "bad" in terms of upload + updated state of the iso.
>> So another idea to support this view would go towards a "Elementary
>> Developer MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a nice
>> development environment.
>>
>> Please feel free to contact me, on any elementary subject. I'll be glade
>> to reply as soon as I can.
>>
>> --
>> Darcy Brás da Silva 
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff]

2012/9/5 Darcy Brás da Silva 

> No, I wasn't aware of such blueprints, I guess it's a bit faulty on my
> side on not checking it before other the talking about the idea on IRC.
> I will certainly have a deep look at it. Thanks
>

Discussing it on IRC is fine, and we can't require anybody to look at
blueprints because few people are aware of them or the way they work.

You seem to be describing means of introduction developers to the tools and
libraries they're supposed to use in your last message; I'd rather not
scatter it across such a heavyweight thing as ISO image and collect all the
instructions in one place, which we're kinda doing at the moment (see
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryweb/+spec/developer-guide). But
again, this is post-Luna stuff, at least as far as "core" developer
involvement goes.

-- 
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OS architect @ elementary
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Darcy Brás da Silva]

No, I wasn't aware of such blueprints, I guess it's a bit faulty on my
side on not checking it before other the talking about the idea on IRC.
I will certainly have a deep look at it. Thanks
On Tue, 2012-09-04 at 23:46 +0400, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff wrote:

> 
> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and
> possiblylimiting to the fact that having everything shipped,
> would mean largeriso imageswhich then could be "bad" in terms
> of upload + updated state of the iso.So another idea to
> support this view would go towards a "ElementaryDeveloper
> MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a nice
> development environment.
> 
> 
> Yep, it's on the radar, see
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/dev-metapackage-elementary
>  (and http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves on 
> using blueprints, if you're not familiar with them).
> 
> But first we need an SDK to put into the metapackage, which we
> currently don't have (in a complete or stable state at least). There's
> GrabIt but it's not that great for novice devs anyway and Tom has a
> project creation script, both of which should probably become a part
> of Euclide, our work-in-progress IDE at some point...
> 
> Right now we're too busy with getting Luna out of the door, but I'd
> expect toolset and SDK work to happen right after Luna release.
> 
> If you want the libraries needed for developing our software,
> just use "sudo apt-get source", any developer should know how
> to get this kind of tools. Using bazaar to branch and build
> our tools from source is also something our developers
> must know how to do.
> 
> apt-get source and bzr are by far not the most developer-friendly
> things. In fact, apt-get source has absolutely nothing to do with
> developers at all, and the fact that some people consider it so only
> proves that our toolset is confusing.
> 
> Not to mention that we don't even have an into into all these things,
> yet.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
> OS architect @ elementary

-- 
Darcy Brás da Silva 


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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Darcy Brás da Silva]

Sorry sending the message twice, I think I didn't set my email client to
assume elementary filter as mailing list
and thus was only replying to one individual.

On Tue, 2012-09-04 at 19:01 +0100, David Gomes wrote:
> Shipping more packages in my opinion is anti-developping philosophy.
To start, the idea behind this IS NOT to put into the _main release_ but
rather having a developer environment, something developers would use,
Not the everyday joe (unless he/she/it wanted to).

>  Each developer has his own preferred tools. Shipping more text
> editors, more libraries, etc is just more bloat in my opinion. Ubuntu
> and its derivatives have enough bloat already, since most of these
> distributions ship with more than 2000 packages. In my system I have
> around 1000 packages installed, but it came with around 600.
Who is talking about shipping more text editors ? The way I see it is
quite simple, ship a default bundle, possibly with notes, and core
libraries to develop elementary apps. Nobody is talking about making a
code factory.
Things like offline documentation available maybe even pdf's.
Even a collection of pre-set bookmarks would do a whole lot for someone
that wants to try fixing a bug but has little experience.
Makefile, Cmake, templates that are commented and explained, compiler
ready to use in the version elementary apps are using, alias set to
generate directory structured and so on.

> 
> 
> Besides, developers should face bugs. It's the best way we can know
> about them and fix them (see
> http://elementaryos.org/journal/eating-our-own-dog-food).
I agree with "eating-our-own-dog-food", however i think you are
misinterpreting what it _"really"_ means. 
My perspective of what it means goes more inline with, have elementary
installed on your "home" computer, and use in day to day tasks. That way
one can detect (pains, problems, bugs, that a regular user would
see/feel).

When developing what we want is maximum stability and minimum
interference, so we can accurately debug the software we are developing,
instead of being misguided because of bugs that we are unaware off,
because that actually delays the development speed, and hardens the
debugging process, not to mention that also hides bugs when
mistaken/confused by other source of errors.
> 
> If you want the libraries needed for developing our software, just use
> "sudo apt-get source", any developer should know how to get this kind
Yes any _developer_ ... Remind you that not everyone is already one,
there are quite a few that still want to become one.
>  of tools. Using bazaar to branch and build our tools from source is
> also something our developers must know how to do.
Version control systems tend to be a pain for new comers, and even for
some other experienced developers that don't use the one elementary
uses.
> 
> 
> This "iso" has no real advantages in my honest opinion.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Darcy Brás da Silva
>  wrote:
> Today while talking to some fine folks at #elementary-dev that
> go by the
> handles of
> victored and voluntatefaber , I wondered if there was any iso
> build
> ready to start working/developing
> for elementary.
> Now what would be the advantages of having the extra work on
> getting
> this iso out.
> 
> 1) Errors and bugs can be very damaging to a development
> environment,
> which lead to a constant fight wen testing highly unstable
> packages. This makes the developer hell much bigger since
> everyone tends
> to test and run this packages in a somewhat different
> configuration.
> In case of failure, the developer then needs re-set the
> development
> environment to a known stage. This can be very time consuming,
> that could be in better use.
> It would also reduce the potential hidden errors, and the
> known phrase
> "That's weird, It works in my machine".
> 
> 2) Individuals that want to start developing in/for elementary
> could
> start right away hacking their way in. And if for some reason
> they mess
> up big time,
> guess what ? The iso is right there, re-install, start fresh.
> 
> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and
> possibly
> limiting to the fact that having everything shipped, would
> mean larger
> iso images
> which then could be "bad" in terms of upload + updated state
> of the iso.
> So another idea to support this view would go towards a
> "Elementary
> Developer MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a
> nice
> development environment.
> 
> Please feel free to contact me, on any elementary subject.
> I'll be glade
> to reply as soon as I can.
> 
>

Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Jakob Eriksson]

Agreed!

Most of the current developers are, I suspect, seasoned programmers, but we
have the opportunity to attract new programmers too and starting kit would be
a nice guidance saying "with these tools you can't stray too far off".


best regards,
Jakob


On September 4, 2012 at 8:51 PM Voldyman  wrote:

> I agree with munchor's dog fooding reference but do not agree with the other
> part.
> When i started contributing to elementary project (which is quite recently
> ;)) i had never done serious linux app development. I came from a mainly web
> and c# for desktop background although after completely moving to linux few
> years ago the c# part had stopped. It was a little hard
> For me to find good tools for development, the guys at #elementary-dev (you
> all) suggested scratch-text-editor which i couldn't you (still can't) so i
> continued using Sublime Text which i had been using for web dev and now i am
> pretty comfortable with it.
>
> There should be a recommended set of tools for a programmer to begin with.
> He/she can later pick up or drop tools according to their preference.
>

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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Voldyman]

I agree with munchor's dog fooding reference but do not agree with the other 
part.
When i started contributing to elementary project (which is quite recently ;)) 
i had never done serious linux app development. I came from a mainly web and c# 
for desktop background although after completely moving to linux few years ago 
the c# part had stopped. It was a little hard 
For me to find good tools for development, the guys at #elementary-dev (you 
all) suggested scratch-text-editor which i couldn't you (still can't) so i 
continued using Sublime Text which i had been using for web dev and now i am 
pretty comfortable with it.

There should be a recommended set of tools for a programmer to begin with. 
He/she can later pick up or drop tools according to their preference.
 
Voldyman
On 04-Sep-2012, at 11:31 PM, David Gomes  wrote:

> Shipping more packages in my opinion is anti-developping philosophy. Each 
> developer has his own preferred tools. Shipping more text editors, more 
> libraries, etc is just more bloat in my opinion. Ubuntu and its derivatives 
> have enough bloat already, since most of these distributions ship with more 
> than 2000 packages. In my system I have around 1000 packages installed, but 
> it came with around 600.
> 
> Besides, developers should face bugs. It's the best way we can know about 
> them and fix them (see  
> http://elementaryos.org/journal/eating-our-own-dog-food).
> 
> If you want the libraries needed for developing our software, just use "sudo 
> apt-get source", any developer should know how to get this kind of tools. 
> Using bazaar to branch and build our tools from source is also something our 
> developers must know how to do.
> 
> This "iso" has no real advantages in my honest opinion.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Darcy Brás da Silva 
>  wrote:
> Today while talking to some fine folks at #elementary-dev that go by the
> handles of
> victored and voluntatefaber , I wondered if there was any iso build
> ready to start working/developing
> for elementary.
> Now what would be the advantages of having the extra work on getting
> this iso out.
> 
> 1) Errors and bugs can be very damaging to a development environment,
> which lead to a constant fight wen testing highly unstable
> packages. This makes the developer hell much bigger since everyone tends
> to test and run this packages in a somewhat different configuration.
> In case of failure, the developer then needs re-set the development
> environment to a known stage. This can be very time consuming,
> that could be in better use.
> It would also reduce the potential hidden errors, and the known phrase
> "That's weird, It works in my machine".
> 
> 2) Individuals that want to start developing in/for elementary could
> start right away hacking their way in. And if for some reason they mess
> up big time,
> guess what ? The iso is right there, re-install, start fresh.
> 
> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and possibly
> limiting to the fact that having everything shipped, would mean larger
> iso images
> which then could be "bad" in terms of upload + updated state of the iso.
> So another idea to support this view would go towards a "Elementary
> Developer MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a nice
> development environment.
> 
> Please feel free to contact me, on any elementary subject. I'll be glade
> to reply as soon as I can.
> 
> --
> Darcy Brás da Silva 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> 
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Daniel Foré]

I usually just "apt-get build-dep" on anything I need to build and use
Scratch for my coding needs. But then again I'm not doing anything terribly
complex code-wise.

I wouldn't be opposed to a developer meta-package, but the questions
remains: What exactly would such a meta-package pull in?

I'd definitely put any thoughts into this blueprint and we can discuss it
further:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/dev-metapackage-elementary


On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff <
ser...@elementaryos.org> wrote:

> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and
>> possiblylimiting to the fact that having everything shipped, would mean
>> largeriso imageswhich then could be "bad" in terms of upload + updated
>> state of the iso.So another idea to support this view would go towards a
>> "ElementaryDeveloper MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a nice
>> development environment.
>>
>
> Yep, it's on the radar, see
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/dev-metapackage-elementary(and
> http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves on
> using blueprints, if you're not familiar with them).
>
> But first we need an SDK to put into the metapackage, which we currently
> don't have (in a complete or stable state at least). There's 
> GrabItbut it's 
> not that great for novice devs anyway and Tom has a project
> creation script, both of which should probably become a part of Euclide,
> our work-in-progress IDE at some point...
>
> Right now we're too busy with getting Luna out of the door, but I'd expect
> toolset and SDK work to happen right after Luna release.
>
>
> If you want the libraries needed for developing our software, just use
>> "sudo apt-get source", *any* developer should know how to get this kind
>> of tools. Using bazaar to branch and build our tools from source is also
>> something our developers *must* know how to do.
>>
>
> apt-get source and bzr are by far not the most developer-friendly things.
> In fact, apt-get source has absolutely nothing to do with developers at
> all, and the fact that some people consider it so only proves that our
> toolset is confusing.
>
> Not to mention that we don't even have an into into all these things, yet.
>
> --
> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
> OS architect @ elementary
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>


-- 
Best Regards,

Daniel Foré

elementaryos.org
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff]

> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and
> possiblylimiting to the fact that having everything shipped, would mean
> largeriso imageswhich then could be "bad" in terms of upload + updated
> state of the iso.So another idea to support this view would go towards a
> "ElementaryDeveloper MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a nice
> development environment.
>

Yep, it's on the radar, see
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/dev-metapackage-elementary(and
http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves on using
blueprints, if you're not familiar with them).

But first we need an SDK to put into the metapackage, which we currently
don't have (in a complete or stable state at least). There's
GrabItbut
it's not that great for novice devs anyway and Tom has a project
creation script, both of which should probably become a part of Euclide,
our work-in-progress IDE at some point...

Right now we're too busy with getting Luna out of the door, but I'd expect
toolset and SDK work to happen right after Luna release.

If you want the libraries needed for developing our software, just use
> "sudo apt-get source", *any* developer should know how to get this kind
> of tools. Using bazaar to branch and build our tools from source is also
> something our developers *must* know how to do.
>

apt-get source and bzr are by far not the most developer-friendly things.
In fact, apt-get source has absolutely nothing to do with developers at
all, and the fact that some people consider it so only proves that our
toolset is confusing.

Not to mention that we don't even have an into into all these things, yet.

-- 
Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
OS architect @ elementary
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Developer Environment For Elementary OS

[David Gomes]

Shipping more packages in my opinion is anti-developping philosophy. Each
developer has his own preferred tools. Shipping more text editors, more
libraries, etc is just more bloat in my opinion. Ubuntu and its derivatives
have enough bloat already, since most of these distributions ship with more
than 2000 packages. In my system I have around 1000 packages installed, but
it came with around 600.

Besides, developers should face bugs. It's the best way we can know about
them and fix them (see
http://elementaryos.org/journal/eating-our-own-dog-food).

If you want the libraries needed for developing our software, just use
"sudo apt-get source", *any* developer should know how to get this kind of
tools. Using bazaar to branch and build our tools from source is also
something our developers *must* know how to do.

This "iso" has no real advantages in my honest opinion.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Darcy Brás da Silva <
dardeve...@cidadecool.com> wrote:

> Today while talking to some fine folks at #elementary-dev that go by the
> handles of
> victored and voluntatefaber , I wondered if there was any iso build
> ready to start working/developing
> for elementary.
> Now what would be the advantages of having the extra work on getting
> this iso out.
>
> 1) Errors and bugs can be very damaging to a development environment,
> which lead to a constant fight wen testing highly unstable
> packages. This makes the developer hell much bigger since everyone tends
> to test and run this packages in a somewhat different configuration.
> In case of failure, the developer then needs re-set the development
> environment to a known stage. This can be very time consuming,
> that could be in better use.
> It would also reduce the potential hidden errors, and the known phrase
> "That's weird, It works in my machine".
>
> 2) Individuals that want to start developing in/for elementary could
> start right away hacking their way in. And if for some reason they mess
> up big time,
> guess what ? The iso is right there, re-install, start fresh.
>
> Now I am fully aware that maybe this would be a hard work, and possibly
> limiting to the fact that having everything shipped, would mean larger
> iso images
> which then could be "bad" in terms of upload + updated state of the iso.
> So another idea to support this view would go towards a "Elementary
> Developer MetaPackage" that would take care of preparing a nice
> development environment.
>
> Please feel free to contact me, on any elementary subject. I'll be glade
> to reply as soon as I can.
>
> --
> Darcy Brás da Silva 
>
>
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
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