Re: [elm-discuss] Learning Elm and feeling alone in the world

[Wouter In t Velt]

Great discussion! I am looking forward to seeing progress on the Learn You an 
Elm.

Having learned quite a few languages in my days, I actually find it quite 
refreshing to dive into a new and promising language as Elm.
With many other languages (Java anyone?) it was a nightmare to find a suitable 
(and not outdated) starting point among gazillions of options, tutorials, 
courses, libraries, frameworks etc.

Yes Elm has gaps to be filled, tutorials and guides still in development, and 
libraries to mature. And for many questions the answer is not yet out there or 
hard to find, especially for the infix stuff (try Googling what "::"  means).

And I find the community very supportive (evidence in this threat).
The docs on elm-Lang.org got me a long way, and I hope I can continue to steer 
clear of docs from other languages like Haskell (haven't read LYaH).

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Re: [elm-discuss] Learning Elm and feeling alone in the world

[Joey Eremondi]

I started learn you an Elm, and it's far from ready for reccomending to
anyone. Learning Haskell is definitely not the ideal way to learn Elm.
On Jun 20, 2016 12:13 PM, "Håkon Rossebø"  wrote:

> After I've started learning Elm, I agree that the documentation for "basic
> functional programming" could be improved. "Learn You a Haskell" is a great
> resource  and I'm surprised that "Learn You an Elm" has not been mentioned
> here yet - http://learnyouanelm.github.io/. The first chapters from
> "Learn You a Haskell" has already been adapted. I hope the community can
> contribute more to this project -
> https://github.com/learnyouanelm/learnyouanelm.github.io
>
>
> fredag 13. november 2015 20.26.36 UTC+1 skrev Joey Eremondi følgende:
>>
>> It's worth noting that LYAH is licensed under Creative Commons, so it's
>> potentially possible that we could make a copy of it and adapt it for Elm,
>> while keeping most of the great material (and humour). As long as it was
>> not for profit, and we gave credit to the original, it is allowed.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Jason Zoladz 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Learn You a Haskell" isn't "Haskell documentation."  (That's a straw
>>> man, and you know it.)  It's a book about how to *think* in a certain
>>> paradigm.  And a lot of that paradigm translates to Elm.
>>>
>>> When someone finds a task or concept hard, it's usually because they
>>> don't fully understand the fundamentals.  Someone struggling with Elm
>>> likely isn't having difficulty with the syntax.  (Evan has done a great job
>>> of setting it out succinctly.)  If you're struggling with Elm, and/or if
>>> Elm is your first language, you probably need to work through the
>>> "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs."  It *is* a
>>> *beginner's* book.  And there are tons of online courses that teach
>>> programming through it.
>>>
>>> So, yes, I think we should sometimes point people to sources outside of
>>> Elm if only because translating the greatest-hits-of-computation-books into
>>> Elm is a bit wasteful.
>>>
>>> As for your assertion that directing folks to Haskell guarantees
>>> failure, I think you underestimate your students.  Students -- heck, people
>>> generally for that matter -- don't need to coddled.  They need to
>>> encouraged to confront the fact that the real learning happens through
>>> struggling with new ideas.  Programming is hard.  You're not going to learn
>>> how to do it simply by reading "The Elm Architecture" and a few blog posts.
>>>
>>> FYI...  ("Concepts, Techniques and Models of Computer Programming" isn't
>>> about Haskell at all.  In fact, the author isn't a big fan of Haskell.
>>> It's the perhaps the successor to the SICP.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:09:02 AM UTC-5, Christopher Anand
>>> wrote:

 It is great that you have learned about FP in your first year of
 programming, but that probably puts you in a pretty small minority.

 I wanted to know what issues beginners have so I could address them for
 people learning ELM as their first programming language.  In many ways it
 is a very good first language, but pointing people into Haskell
 documentation is pretty much guaranteed to fail.

 Christopher

 On Nov 12, 2015, at 8:03 AM, Jason Zoladz  wrote:

 It doesn't make sense to pretend that Elm wasn't influenced by, and
 doesn't inhabit, a broader functional landscape.  Pardon the pun, but Elm
 has roots. If someone has a problem with a concept, it seems completely
 reasonable to say:  You can read about that concept here, albeit in another
 dialect of FP.

 (For example, Elm has a parsing library -- elm-combine.  You wouldn't
 refer someone to Parsec tutorials to learn how it works?)

 There are so many fantastic resources in the broader world of FP (e.g.,
 pretty much anything written by Richard Bird) that can help someone write
 programs in Elm.  Why wouldn't we take advantage of those resources?

 One of the things that bothers me about the Elm community is (my
 perception) that the community: (1) wants to pretend that programming is
 effortless; and (2) believes that folks coming from Javascript are
 intimidated by the depth of new ideas that Elm exposes.

 Look, I don't have any formal (i.e., university) CS education.   I
 started programming in my spare time little more than a year ago.  The
 (unfortunate?) reality is:  there are some things in this world that you
 must tackle by sitting down with a thick book.


 On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 8:54:49 AM UTC-5, Christopher Anand
 wrote:
>
> Simon,
>
> Are those the only/main things Learn You a Haskell is good for?  These
> are the things we should be putting into beginner ELM books and tutorials.
> Not that Learn You a Haskell is not a 

Re: [elm-discuss] Learning Elm and feeling alone in the world

[Håkon Rossebø]

After I've started learning Elm, I agree that the documentation for "basic 
functional programming" could be improved. "Learn You a Haskell" is a great 
resource  and I'm surprised that "Learn You an Elm" has not been mentioned 
here yet - http://learnyouanelm.github.io/. The first chapters from "Learn 
You a Haskell" has already been adapted. I hope the community can 
contribute more to this project 
- https://github.com/learnyouanelm/learnyouanelm.github.io


fredag 13. november 2015 20.26.36 UTC+1 skrev Joey Eremondi følgende:
>
> It's worth noting that LYAH is licensed under Creative Commons, so it's 
> potentially possible that we could make a copy of it and adapt it for Elm, 
> while keeping most of the great material (and humour). As long as it was 
> not for profit, and we gave credit to the original, it is allowed.
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Jason Zoladz  > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Learn You a Haskell" isn't "Haskell documentation."  (That's a straw 
>> man, and you know it.)  It's a book about how to *think* in a certain 
>> paradigm.  And a lot of that paradigm translates to Elm.
>>
>> When someone finds a task or concept hard, it's usually because they 
>> don't fully understand the fundamentals.  Someone struggling with Elm 
>> likely isn't having difficulty with the syntax.  (Evan has done a great job 
>> of setting it out succinctly.)  If you're struggling with Elm, and/or if 
>> Elm is your first language, you probably need to work through the 
>> "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs."  It *is* a 
>> *beginner's* book.  And there are tons of online courses that teach 
>> programming through it.
>>
>> So, yes, I think we should sometimes point people to sources outside of 
>> Elm if only because translating the greatest-hits-of-computation-books into 
>> Elm is a bit wasteful.
>>
>> As for your assertion that directing folks to Haskell guarantees failure, 
>> I think you underestimate your students.  Students -- heck, people 
>> generally for that matter -- don't need to coddled.  They need to 
>> encouraged to confront the fact that the real learning happens through 
>> struggling with new ideas.  Programming is hard.  You're not going to learn 
>> how to do it simply by reading "The Elm Architecture" and a few blog posts.
>>
>> FYI...  ("Concepts, Techniques and Models of Computer Programming" isn't 
>> about Haskell at all.  In fact, the author isn't a big fan of Haskell.  
>> It's the perhaps the successor to the SICP.)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:09:02 AM UTC-5, Christopher Anand 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is great that you have learned about FP in your first year of 
>>> programming, but that probably puts you in a pretty small minority.
>>>
>>> I wanted to know what issues beginners have so I could address them for 
>>> people learning ELM as their first programming language.  In many ways it 
>>> is a very good first language, but pointing people into Haskell 
>>> documentation is pretty much guaranteed to fail.
>>>
>>> Christopher
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 8:03 AM, Jason Zoladz  wrote:
>>>
>>> It doesn't make sense to pretend that Elm wasn't influenced by, and 
>>> doesn't inhabit, a broader functional landscape.  Pardon the pun, but Elm 
>>> has roots. If someone has a problem with a concept, it seems completely 
>>> reasonable to say:  You can read about that concept here, albeit in another 
>>> dialect of FP.
>>>
>>> (For example, Elm has a parsing library -- elm-combine.  You wouldn't 
>>> refer someone to Parsec tutorials to learn how it works?)  
>>>
>>> There are so many fantastic resources in the broader world of FP (e.g., 
>>> pretty much anything written by Richard Bird) that can help someone write 
>>> programs in Elm.  Why wouldn't we take advantage of those resources?
>>>
>>> One of the things that bothers me about the Elm community is (my 
>>> perception) that the community: (1) wants to pretend that programming is 
>>> effortless; and (2) believes that folks coming from Javascript are 
>>> intimidated by the depth of new ideas that Elm exposes.
>>>
>>> Look, I don't have any formal (i.e., university) CS education.   I 
>>> started programming in my spare time little more than a year ago.  The 
>>> (unfortunate?) reality is:  there are some things in this world that you 
>>> must tackle by sitting down with a thick book.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 8:54:49 AM UTC-5, Christopher Anand 
>>> wrote:

 Simon,

 Are those the only/main things Learn You a Haskell is good for?  These 
 are the things we should be putting into beginner ELM books and tutorials. 
  
 Not that Learn You a Haskell is not a great book, but there are probably a 
 lot of people who are intimidated by the suggestion that you need to learn 
 Haskell first.

 Christopher

 On Nov 10, 2015, at 2:34 AM, Simon  wrote:

 When I first met