Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi, Two reasons to at least jump to 24.4: - nadvice.el: we can clean up all the advising in the code and advocate add-function. This is already employed in upstream Emacs. - prettify-symbols-mode: Perhaps some entity display code can be dropped in favor of prettify-symbols-mode? I don't know if this is feasible. Rasmus -- May contains speling mistake
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Rasmus, Rasmus ras...@gmx.us writes: It would seem to me, that the natural conclusion from this is simply to EOL Org 8+ and move on to v9, no? (I'm not sure what you mean by EOL.) And surely I've not been clear (see my answer to Suvayu too): the whole purpose of this three-branches temporary move is to be able to continue adding new features to the 8.x series, so that Emacs-23 users can enjoy those features. So the next major version will be 8.4, and Emacs 23 compatible. This does not prevent from working on the master branch and develop things that are Emacs 24.3+ compatible. I hope it makes more sense. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien writes: Here is my decision on this issue: - the Org 8.x series will be Emacs 23+ compatible. …and we should maybe do an 8.4 final release before it is frozen, but not drag it along furhter like you suggested in emacs-devel. - the Org 9.x series will be Emacs 24.3+ compatible. Emacs 23 and XEmacs support will be officially dropped as of Org 9.0. Org on XEmacs is practically dead already, so why do we need to pretend it is still supported? You can check when I did the last compatibility fixes for it, after that nobody (not even any XEmacs user) has ever made any mention of it working or not working even though there were numerous changes that are unlikely to work or work correctly on XEmacs. The maint branch continues to be used to work on minor releases, as it has always been used. Instead of reverting changes from the master branch (you clearly don't want to do that, and I don't either), I suggest we create a new branch called org-8-master for Org 8.4+, and continue to use master for Org 9.x+ (i.e. major major releases). I'm not sure how you want to implement this in practise, but it looks too complicated and error-prone. My suggestion would be to keep the maint branch compatible with Emacs23 until 8.4 and then (maybe) split off a maint-23 branch for any bugfixes. If a (new) maintainer springs into action to backport features into this branch, then fine, but otherwise it stops being connected to the development branches. This is temporary: once the 9.0 version is released, we can simply use maint and master as before, and delete org-8-master. You mustn't delete public branches. The reason for this is that we need to make room for new features in the 8.x series, so that these new features will be available to the Emacs 23 users. If we drop Emacs 23 support as of Org 8.4, we won't be able to add new features (e.g. new export backends) for Emacs 23. I don't think we should. Emacs23 does not get any new features, then why should Org on Emacs23 do? I recognize having the manpower to watch after those branches might be an issue, but we can overcome it by calling for careful testing before major releases. See the above proposal which minimizes that impact. Call for a new maintainer for maint-23 and see if someone volunteers. Otherwise just freeze that branch and backport only fixes for really bad issues. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: Hi Nicolas and all, As Achim said, we may have been miscommunicating, especially on whether it was about requiring Emacs 23+ or 24.3 vs 24.4. Here is my decision on this issue: - the Org 8.x series will be Emacs 23+ compatible. - the Org 9.x series will be Emacs 24.3+ compatible. [...] Let me know what you think, It would seem to me, that the natural conclusion from this is simply to EOL Org 8+ and move on to v9, no? Rasmus -- Send from my Emacs
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Bastien, On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:40:09AM +0200, Bastien wrote: Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com writes: I'm slightly confused as-to why this special org-8-master branch is needed. As far as I understood from Achim's message (2nd paragraph): http://mid.gmane.org/87twrzkbow.fsf@Rainer.invalid, that so far maint supports Emacs 23. Yes, maint supports Emacs 23. But maint is for minor release, and I want a branch where we can work on major releases (8.4, 8.5, etc.) that support Emacs 23 too. I think this was the bit of information I was missing. Thanks, -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Bastien, On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 01:01:29AM +0200, Bastien wrote: The maint branch continues to be used to work on minor releases, as it has always been used. Instead of reverting changes from the master branch (you clearly don't want to do that, and I don't either), I suggest we create a new branch called org-8-master for Org 8.4+, and continue to use master for Org 9.x+ (i.e. major major releases). I'm slightly confused as-to why this special org-8-master branch is needed. As far as I understood from Achim's message (2nd paragraph): http://mid.gmane.org/87twrzkbow.fsf@Rainer.invalid, that so far maint supports Emacs 23. Although this might have been a coincidence, without a conscious decision. It will continue supporting Emacs 23 until Org 9. Post Org 9, if required, one can choose to start a new maint branch called maint23 for continued Emacs 23 support. Given the above, I do not understand the need for a separate org-8-master branch. Is this a gap in communication, or am I missing something here? Cheers, -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Suvayu, Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com writes: I'm slightly confused as-to why this special org-8-master branch is needed. As far as I understood from Achim's message (2nd paragraph): http://mid.gmane.org/87twrzkbow.fsf@Rainer.invalid, that so far maint supports Emacs 23. Yes, maint supports Emacs 23. But maint is for minor release, and I want a branch where we can work on major releases (8.4, 8.5, etc.) that support Emacs 23 too. The clean way would have been to use drop-emacs23 branch for working on code that does not support Emacs 23, and continue to use master for working on major releases, but since nobody wants to revert the code on master, there is no harm in using org-8-master as the new master. Although this might have been a coincidence, without a conscious decision. It will continue supporting Emacs 23 until Org 9. Post Org 9, if required, one can choose to start a new maint branch called maint23 for continued Emacs 23 support. Given the above, I do not understand the need for a separate org-8-master branch. Is this a gap in communication, or am I missing something here? I hope my answer clarifies things. Thanks, -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi David, David Engster d...@randomsample.de writes: Bastien writes: Emacs 23 and XEmacs support will be officially dropped as of Org 9.0. Support for XEmacs should be dropped right away; it would just state a fact, as Org didn't even compile with XEmacs for quite some time now (and nobody complained). Yes. By officially, I mean : all the code related to XEmacs compatibility will be removed from Org codebase. Of course we can declare that XEmacs is not supported right now, but removing this code takes some time. I recognize having the manpower to watch after those branches might be an issue, but we can overcome it by calling for careful testing before major releases. At least the Buildbot can test the 8.3 branch with older Emacsen. I already changed that master is only checked with 24.3+. That's great, thanks. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Nicolas and all, As Achim said, we may have been miscommunicating, especially on whether it was about requiring Emacs 23+ or 24.3 vs 24.4. Here is my decision on this issue: - the Org 8.x series will be Emacs 23+ compatible. - the Org 9.x series will be Emacs 24.3+ compatible. Emacs 23 and XEmacs support will be officially dropped as of Org 9.0. The maint branch continues to be used to work on minor releases, as it has always been used. Instead of reverting changes from the master branch (you clearly don't want to do that, and I don't either), I suggest we create a new branch called org-8-master for Org 8.4+, and continue to use master for Org 9.x+ (i.e. major major releases). This is temporary: once the 9.0 version is released, we can simply use maint and master as before, and delete org-8-master. The reason for this is that we need to make room for new features in the 8.x series, so that these new features will be available to the Emacs 23 users. If we drop Emacs 23 support as of Org 8.4, we won't be able to add new features (e.g. new export backends) for Emacs 23. I recognize having the manpower to watch after those branches might be an issue, but we can overcome it by calling for careful testing before major releases. Let me know what you think, -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien writes: Emacs 23 and XEmacs support will be officially dropped as of Org 9.0. Support for XEmacs should be dropped right away; it would just state a fact, as Org didn't even compile with XEmacs for quite some time now (and nobody complained). I recognize having the manpower to watch after those branches might be an issue, but we can overcome it by calling for careful testing before major releases. At least the Buildbot can test the 8.3 branch with older Emacsen. I already changed that master is only checked with 24.3+. -David
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Achim, Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: Since it already has happened and the general consensus seems to be that we should go there eventually, just maybe not right now, I don't see why we suddenly also need to re-define what master is about. The redefinition already happened (i.e. the master branch is about Org+Emacs 24.3+) and it happened before we could reach a consensus about it, or simply take the time to really discuss it as we need. I'm trying to find the best conditions to move forward here. If the repository is in a state that pushes us toward one decision, these are not the best conditions IMO. So if we revert the changes, that's fine. If not, that's fine too, but we will have to decide things as if the commits where not done. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien writes: So my suggestion still stands: - let's keep master in the current compatibility state since the question you asked still needs to be answer (it's just 10 days since it was asked). - let's use a dedicated branch for commits requiring Emacs 24.3+. I'm with Nicolas on this point: if we end up de-supporting Emacs 23, then the master branch is where that should happen. Since it already has happened and the general consensus seems to be that we should go there eventually, just maybe not right now, I don't see why we suddenly also need to re-define what master is about. Maybe we will end up distributing Org 8.3+ for Emacs 23.1 and Org 9+ for Emacs 24.3+ -- I don't know. What the next release from master will be called is not yet decided. But we can and should decide that maint does not de-support Emacs 23 until whatever version and only after proper announcement. That might ultimately end up needing a separate maint23 branch for cherry-picking some bug-fixes after the development has swicthed to Emacs24.3+ on maint, although I don't see where the developer resources would come from to keep three branches in flight, especially when apparently some developers don't have Emacs23 at their disposal (actually that is what I have the RaspberryPi for, believe it or not). Let's take 10-15 days to build a strategy together, with feedbacks from various sources and information we share. We need this time to consider the question seriously. Please revert the changes in master that assume Org needs Emacs 24.3+. There's no need to rush that decision either. I am one of those who still need to run on Emacs23 and I will just switch from master to maint for that. I don't see any pressing bugs or missing features there either, so if I'd need to freeze Emacs23 to some specific point in the history that would quite likely also work. From what happened with Emacs 22, I expect at least another two years before I can generally assume availability of Emacs 24.3+ on all systems. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ DIY Stuff: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/DIY.html
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry writes: The redefinition already happened (i.e. the master branch is about Org+Emacs 24.3+) and it happened before we could reach a consensus about it, or simply take the time to really discuss it as we need. I'm trying to find the best conditions to move forward here. Well, I'm not sure about achieving optimum, but I suggest that reverting those commits isn't going to help anybody. If the repository is in a state that pushes us toward one decision, these are not the best conditions IMO. So if we revert the changes, that's fine. If not, that's fine too, but we will have to decide things as if the commits where not done. The decision for the current master branch was de-facto already taken. There was certainly a bit of a miscommunication, but Nicolas did those commits in good faith. Nothing is lost so far since maint is still Emacs 23 compatible. As long as it is kept that way, you still have all options open. So it doesn't preclude any new decisions you want to ponder on. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ SD adaptations for Waldorf Q V3.00R3 and Q+ V3.54R2: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: No. You asked weather it was fine to require Emacs 24.4 in your original message, then people pointed out that Emacs 24.3 was still widely used, then you said it was fine to require Emacs 24.3, just Emacs 24.4 was icing on the cake. That's correct, excepted that you were the first to ask why 24.4 and not 24.3? So I assumed it was between 24.3 and 24.4. OK, I understand. I was just curious about why 24.4 and not 24.3, since 24.4 does not add that much from a developer's point of view. This is not a light decision, as we cannot move back, and I don't see the need for rushing here. There is no rushing, really. Emacs 24 was released in 2012, and lexical binding is a huge step forward for developers. There is some serious work involved to make the jump (along with cl-lib switch), so the sooner we can start, the better. I don't mean the rushing in general, I meaning the rushing between the feedback you asked for and the move to commit things that assume the answer has been given. RMS replied to the question on emacs-devel: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/188810 He suggests to continue supporting Emacs 23. So my suggestion still stands: - let's keep master in the current compatibility state since the question you asked still needs to be answer (it's just 10 days since it was asked). - let's use a dedicated branch for commits requiring Emacs 24.3+. Maybe we will end up distributing Org 8.3+ for Emacs 23.1 and Org 9+ for Emacs 24.3+ -- I don't know. Let's take 10-15 days to build a strategy together, with feedbacks from various sources and information we share. We need this time to consider the question seriously. Please revert the changes in master that assume Org needs Emacs 24.3+. Thanks, -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi, There is no rush for this change. I will ask on the emacs-devel mailing list for advice on what seems best to support. Rasmus, can you revert the 24.3 requirement on org.el for now ? Let's not make changes in the master branch that push the decision when it is not taken yet. Thanks, -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hello, Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes: There is no rush for this change. I will ask on the emacs-devel mailing list for advice on what seems best to support. Rasmus, can you revert the 24.3 requirement on org.el for now ? Let's not make changes in the master branch that push the decision when it is not taken yet. Master branch is already 24.3+ (with compilation warnings, 24.4+ without them): I committed org-lint.el, moved some libraries to lexical binding, etc. Is there any reason to avoid requiring at least Emacs 24.3 in development branch? Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hello, Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: Debian Squeeze LTS or whatever they call it doesn't w/o backports. RHEL6 doesn't have it w/o epel (RHEL7 has 24.3 IIRC). RaspberryPi doesn't have it. I don't think we have a lot of Org users on RaspberryPi. I'm still falling over Emacs 22 in various forms and Emacs 23, where it is standard is not always at the latest version (23.4). So what? If you have to deal with Emacs 23, you can also live with Org 8.3. It is by no mean a sub-par release. It is also brand new. I've been doing a lot of this compat stuff, but I gave up since I couldn't get ERT to work on XEmacs. Org did build (with lots of errors) until some point and it was at least superficially usable. The two XEmacs users on this list have never responded to any requests for further testing. So I guess that XEmacs can be considered unsupportable. Unfortunately, this situation is not very good. We have compatibility functions all over the place for zero benefit. If you were hoping to get rid of compat, then have a look at the warnings on Emacs 25. I can only handle one fight at a time. Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hello,
Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes:
Yes, we should have waited for the decision to be taken for this.
AFAIU, the decision was between 24.3 and 24.4. It isn't clear to me that
there was an hesitation about dropping Emacs 23 support.
I don't know, but we have only little information on what impact such
a change will have. Our best move for now is to ask on mailing lists,
collect information, then decide.
What impact do you think it can have? Users willing to use development
branch need Emacs 24.{3,4}. That's about it.
Also such a change needs to be advertized correctly,
This is orthogonal to the issue. Once the desired minimal version is
settled, we will notify it in ORG-NEWS.
I'd rather have it for Org 9.0 -- same for dropping XEmacs
compatibility.
Your call.
We don't need to complete the whole 8.x series and may jump to 9.0
soonish, but for the time being, I suggest you create a 9.0 branch
with the 24.3 requirement and changes that cannot go without it.
WDYT?
I think it is a mistake.
Handling two development branches means people testing Org have to
choose which branch to test. We don't have the manpower to waste testing
capabilities like that.
I also see no reason to write outdated code (e.g., new libraries without
lexical binding) and update it later.
Regards,
--
Nicolas Goaziou
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Master branch is already 24.3+ (with compilation warnings, 24.4+ without them): I committed org-lint.el, moved some libraries to lexical binding, etc. Yes, we should have waited for the decision to be taken for this. Is there any reason to avoid requiring at least Emacs 24.3 in development branch? I don't know, but we have only little information on what impact such a change will have. Our best move for now is to ask on mailing lists, collect information, then decide. Also such a change needs to be advertized correctly, I'd rather have it for Org 9.0 -- same for dropping XEmacs compatibility. We don't need to complete the whole 8.x series and may jump to 9.0 soonish, but for the time being, I suggest you create a 9.0 branch with the 24.3 requirement and changes that cannot go without it. WDYT? -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Nicolas Goaziou writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Debian Squeeze LTS or whatever they call it doesn't w/o backports. RHEL6 doesn't have it w/o epel (RHEL7 has 24.3 IIRC). RaspberryPi doesn't have it. I'm still falling over Emacs 22 in various forms and Emacs 23, where it is standard is not always at the latest version (23.4). Also, what is the status of XEmacs support? AFAIU Org 8.3 doesn't build on XEmacs but no one is complaining. We may as well drop it and ignore most of org-compat.el. I've been doing a lot of this compat stuff, but I gave up since I couldn't get ERT to work on XEmacs. Org did build (with lots of errors) until some point and it was at least superficially usable. The two XEmacs users on this list have never responded to any requests for further testing. So I guess that XEmacs can be considered unsupportable. If you were hoping to get rid of compat, then have a look at the warnings on Emacs 25. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Q+, Q and microQ: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes: Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Master branch is already 24.3+ (with compilation warnings, 24.4+ without them): I committed org-lint.el, moved some libraries to lexical binding, etc. Yes, we should have waited for the decision to be taken for this. Is there any reason to avoid requiring at least Emacs 24.3 in development branch? I don't know, but we have only little information on what impact such a change will have. Our best move for now is to ask on mailing lists, collect information, then decide. Also such a change needs to be advertized correctly, I'd rather have it for Org 9.0 -- same for dropping XEmacs compatibility. We don't need to complete the whole 8.x series and may jump to 9.0 soonish, but for the time being, I suggest you create a 9.0 branch with the 24.3 requirement and changes that cannot go without it. WDYT? But then what will master hold and what would be the point of it? It sounds like a way to rename master to branch9.0... Also, Emacs 24.3 was released in March, 2013. By the time the next Org is released, it will be more than 3 years old. Rasmus -- This message is brought to you by the department of redundant departments
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Rasmus ras...@gmx.us writes: But then what will master hold and what would be the point of it? It sounds like a way to rename master to branch9.0... The point is to allow committing changes that depend on this requirement without forcing the requirement on master. We can also simply revert those change and wait for the decision to be taken. This is a matter of waiting ~10 days I'd say. Also, Emacs 24.3 was released in March, 2013. By the time the next Org is released, it will be more than 3 years old. Com'on :) I'm back for good and don't plan to wait years between releases. I wish we can release 8.4 at the end of August and 9.0 in October. My simple point is: let's get more information and let's take a proper decision. Let's not force the change. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes: We can also simply revert those change and wait for the decision to be taken. This is a matter of waiting ~10 days I'd say. Also, Emacs 24.3 was released in March, 2013. By the time the next Org is released, it will be more than 3 years old. Com'on :) I'm back for good and don't plan to wait years between releases. I wish we can release 8.4 at the end of August and 9.0 in October. It was not meant as 'finger-pointing'. Slow releases are not necessarily a bad thing. Org is very important to the work of some folks, so a slow cycle might be less disruptive. OTOH, so could frequent releases... I don't know, really. Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: Nicolas Goaziou writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Debian Squeeze LTS or whatever they call it doesn't w/o backports. RHEL6 doesn't have it w/o epel (RHEL7 has 24.3 IIRC). RaspberryPi doesn't have it. I have Emacs 24.4 on my Debian Wheezy which is pretty old. Can ELPA serve different versions based on the client? I'm still falling over Emacs 22 in various forms and Emacs 23, where it is standard is not always at the latest version (23.4). If ELPA can (0) be used with Emacs-23 and (1) ELPA is smart enough to serve the right version of Org, I don't think this is a problem. Also, what is the status of XEmacs support? AFAIU Org 8.3 doesn't build on XEmacs but no one is complaining. We may as well drop it and ignore most of org-compat.el. I've been doing a lot of this compat stuff, but I gave up since I couldn't get ERT to work on XEmacs. Org did build (with lots of errors) until some point and it was at least superficially usable. The two XEmacs users on this list have never responded to any requests for further testing. So I guess that XEmacs can be considered unsupportable. And THESE are the hidden dependency when targeting older Emacs. We have so many org-prefixed functions that have equivalents in cl-lib. Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: We don't need to complete the whole 8.x series and may jump to 9.0 soonish, but for the time being, I suggest you create a 9.0 branch with the 24.3 requirement and changes that cannot go without it. WDYT? I think it is a mistake. Handling two development branches means people testing Org have to choose which branch to test. We don't have the manpower to waste testing capabilities like that. I also see no reason to write outdated code (e.g., new libraries without lexical binding) and update it later. I agree strongly with the above. Rasmus -- Dobbelt-A
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes: We can also simply revert those change and wait for the decision to be taken. This is a matter of waiting ~10 days I'd say. Revert any commit you want to your heart's content. Note however, that I deleted my corresponding local branches, so you may want to do some back-up prior to this. Also, Emacs 24.3 was released in March, 2013. By the time the next Org is released, it will be more than 3 years old. Com'on :) I'm back for good and don't plan to wait years between releases. I wish we can release 8.4 at the end of August and 9.0 in October. I'm lost here. There is only one change so far in development branch that does not require Emacs 24.3+. What do you want to put in 8.4 that cannot fit in 8.3.2 or 8.3.3? Could you explain a bit what naming scheme you have in mind? My simple point is: let's get more information and let's take a proper decision. Let's not force the change. It's still not clear what information you're after. Switching to lexical binding, counting on cl-lib.el, and so on, is the way to go. What do you expect in delaying this change? Regards,
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: AFAIU, the decision was between 24.3 and 24.4. No. You asked weather it was fine to require Emacs 24.4 in your original message, then people pointed out that Emacs 24.3 was still widely used, then you said it was fine to require Emacs 24.3, just Emacs 24.4 was icing on the cake. So the questions are just : - can we drop XEmacs support? There seem to be a consensus about this (see Achim's message) - what is the oldest version of Emacs that we should require for Org 8.3.1 ? You proposed 24.4 or 24.3 and I want to check for possibly older versions. FWIW, I'm all for Emacs 24.3, I just need time to think about it and more information, such as what Robert just sent. This is not a light decision, as we cannot move back, and I don't see the need for rushing here. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry writes: My simple point is: let's get more information and let's take a proper decision. Let's not force the change. I took a look at what is presently supported by Red Hat, Ubuntu, and OpenSuSE in their long term support releases. The results: emacs 23.1 (RHEL 6.0, Ubuntu 12.04 LTS) emacs 24.3 (OpenSUSE 13.x, RHEL 7, Ubuntu 14.04 LTS) emacs 24.5 (OpenSUSE latest rolling, SUSE SLE-12) In my opinion the goal of Org should be to run on the oldest version of emacs that includes features needed by Org. The long term support versions are indicative of what we should expect from the non-experimental users who just need Org to work. They are not exploratory development users. Since three major distributions are still at emacs 24.3 for their most recent long term support versions, that argues for Org not going beyond 24.3. It's reasonable to expect the non-experimental not bleeding edge users to be one the most recent long term support version. -- Sent with my mu4e
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes: No. You asked weather it was fine to require Emacs 24.4 in your original message, then people pointed out that Emacs 24.3 was still widely used, then you said it was fine to require Emacs 24.3, just Emacs 24.4 was icing on the cake. That's correct, excepted that you were the first to ask why 24.4 and not 24.3? So I assumed it was between 24.3 and 24.4. This is not a light decision, as we cannot move back, and I don't see the need for rushing here. There is no rushing, really. Emacs 24 was released in 2012, and lexical binding is a huge step forward for developers. There is some serious work involved to make the jump (along with cl-lib switch), so the sooner we can start, the better. Regards,
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Robert Klein rokl...@roklein.de writes: On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 23:51:32 +0200 Rasmus ras...@gmx.us wrote: Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Are the any differences between 24.4 and 24.5 that we care about? wrt the distros I care about: - Arch and Fedora are on both on 24.5. - CentOS7 is still 24.3. So is Slackware. SUSE Linux Enterprise 12 and openSUSE 13.2 also have 24.3. The package for future openSUSE:42 is 24.3, too. Bumping requirements to Emacs 24.3 instead of 24.4 is no biggie. 24.4 is just icing on the cake. Regards,
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 10:03:17 +0200 Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr wrote: Robert Klein rokl...@roklein.de writes: On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 23:51:32 +0200 Rasmus ras...@gmx.us wrote: Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Are the any differences between 24.4 and 24.5 that we care about? wrt the distros I care about: - Arch and Fedora are on both on 24.5. - CentOS7 is still 24.3. So is Slackware. SUSE Linux Enterprise 12 and openSUSE 13.2 also have 24.3. The package for future openSUSE:42 is 24.3, too. Bumping requirements to Emacs 24.3 instead of 24.4 is no biggie. 24.4 is just icing on the cake. On second thought, go for it. Org 8.3 runs on Emacs 24.3 and if I want a newer Org I can also install my own Emacs. (Just checked: I already do so, though I forgot the reason. ) Best regards Robert
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes:
Bumping requirements to Emacs 24.3 instead of 24.4 is no biggie. 24.4 is
just icing on the cake.
I don't care about 24.{3,4,5}. In the end, on a very pragmatic level it's
a question of which machines are shown on David's buildbot...
Personally, I'd go for 24.5. Perhaps that's too egoistic.
Rasmus
--
Tack, ni svenska vakttorn. Med plutonium tvingar vi dansken på knä!
[O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hello, Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Also, what is the status of XEmacs support? AFAIU Org 8.3 doesn't build on XEmacs but no one is complaining. We may as well drop it and ignore most of org-compat.el. WDYT? Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou0x80A93738
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
+1 On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 3:38 PM Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr wrote: Hello, Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Also, what is the status of XEmacs support? AFAIU Org 8.3 doesn't build on XEmacs but no one is complaining. We may as well drop it and ignore most of org-compat.el. WDYT? Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou0x80A93738
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 09:39:19PM +0200, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: Hello, Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Also, what is the status of XEmacs support? AFAIU Org 8.3 doesn't build on XEmacs but no one is complaining. We may as well drop it and ignore most of org-compat.el. Agreed to both :). -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Are the any differences between 24.4 and 24.5 that we care about? wrt the distros I care about: - Arch and Fedora are on both on 24.5. - CentOS7 is still 24.3. So is Slackware. Rasmus -- m-mm-mmm- bacon!
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Before discussion 24.4 vs say 24.3... why? What compatibility code is a burden today? Also, what is the status of XEmacs support? AFAIU Org 8.3 doesn't build on XEmacs but no one is complaining. We may as well drop it and ignore most of org-compat.el. I'm all for dropping XEmacs support. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
Bastien Guerry b...@gnu.org writes: Before discussion 24.4 vs say 24.3... why? What compatibility code is a burden today? 24.3 is the minimum required to drop `org-link-escape-browser', which is currently buggy. 24.4 fixes `split-string' and introduces many changes at the lisp level (variadic functions...). 24.5, OTOH, is very boring. Regards,
Re: [O] [DEV] Bump Emacs requirement to 24.4?
On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 23:51:32 +0200 Rasmus ras...@gmx.us wrote: Nicolas Goaziou m...@nicolasgoaziou.fr writes: Just to be sure, can we require Emacs 24.4 for development version (a.k.a. Org 8.4)? As a data point, Debian stable provides it. Are the any differences between 24.4 and 24.5 that we care about? wrt the distros I care about: - Arch and Fedora are on both on 24.5. - CentOS7 is still 24.3. So is Slackware. SUSE Linux Enterprise 12 and openSUSE 13.2 also have 24.3. The package for future openSUSE:42 is 24.3, too. Best regards Robert
