Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 17 January 2021 22:44:36 Matt Shaver wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 14:08:05 -0500
>
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Sunday 17 January 2021 12:06:42 Matt Shaver wrote:
> > > On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:17:57 +
> > >
> > > andy pugh  wrote:
> > > > The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does
> > > > not work with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.
> > >
> > > Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs
> > > that this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience
> > > the Pi3 works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...
> >
> > I don't want to be seen as starting an argument with the legendary
> > Matt Shaver, but I can't let that go by. It is NOT the least bit
> > shaky here Matt,
>
> I have some Pi3s and I bought a 4 when it came out. I used the
> "official" supply and case.

Taint a big enough supply, and it will over heat and crash with the case 
on it.

> My biggest problem was that I couldn't get 
> the display sized right to fit the TVs I was using as monitors with
> the Pi4, whereas the Pi3 "just worked". I put it aside and haven't had
> a chance to try again.

I have a 1920x display on the pi4's mini hdmi output, beautiful pix.

> In any case, I had read Gene's description of his setup and also Ralph
> Stirling's posts about his setup, and I thought, "Hey! I might like to
> have something like that!" And then I read that they would drop
> support for the Pi, so I was just trying to save the Pi option. I'd
> love for it to work with a Pi4, but a Pi3 would be OK too if that's
> what's possible,
>
Unless the guys go out of their way to  muck with the armhf build, the 
pi4b and kernel I'm running will still be running master when I fall 
over.  At 86, that is a possibility, but they took a lng look at my 
ticker Tuesday and sent me home with a small change in the pills, and 
intructions to come back for another look after I've replaced this 
calendar with the next one.  So as long as my wet ram is working, you'll 
see me asking dumb questions for a while yet.

> I don't NEED any of this, I just like the [PI]-->>i2c-->>[Mesa] idea!
> Anyway, don't let my random comments interfere with progress! ;)
>
[PI]-->>i2c-->>[Mesa]? i2c? i2c is too slow. With rpspi, change that to
[PI]-->>spi-->>[Mesa 7i90] and it Just works.  But the pi's all need a 
solid 5 volts applied to the correct header pins, too much loss feeding 
it thru the otg port.  That and a small bit of forced air cooling with 
those stick on heat sinks, and its dead solid.
> Thanks,
> Matt

Take care and stay well Matt.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Matt Shaver]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 14:08:05 -0500
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 17 January 2021 12:06:42 Matt Shaver wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:17:57 +
> >
> > andy pugh  wrote:  
> > > The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not
> > > work with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.  
> >
> > Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs
> > that this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience the
> > Pi3 works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...
> >  
> I don't want to be seen as starting an argument with the legendary
> Matt Shaver, but I can't let that go by. It is NOT the least bit
> shaky here Matt,

I have some Pi3s and I bought a 4 when it came out. I used the
"official" supply and case. My biggest problem was that I couldn't get
the display sized right to fit the TVs I was using as monitors with the
Pi4, whereas the Pi3 "just worked". I put it aside and haven't had a
chance to try again.

In any case, I had read Gene's description of his setup and also Ralph
Stirling's posts about his setup, and I thought, "Hey! I might like to
have something like that!" And then I read that they would drop support
for the Pi, so I was just trying to save the Pi option. I'd love for it
to work with a Pi4, but a Pi3 would be OK too if that's what's possible,

I don't NEED any of this, I just like the [PI]-->>i2c-->>[Mesa] idea!
Anyway, don't let my random comments interfere with progress! ;)

Thanks,
Matt


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Rod Webster]

>As for odroid-h2, I have a c2 I put over $100 worth of my SS into at the
>time, bricked, trying to install linux thru a UEFI bios that had no
>mandatory off switch. Odroid had zero sympathy.

I found the Odroid-H2+ bios to be well behaved and booted from both Linux
Mint and the Debian Buster distro on the Linuxcnc web site.  No special
BIOS settings required.
The non supported network card is a minor inconvenience which would be nice
to resolve.

Win32DiskImager on Windows still remains my favourite tool to create
bootable USB's. Its never failed for me.


Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 13:18, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 17 January 2021 19:05:01 andy pugh wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 23:49, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> > > Andy, I have a working 4.19 kernel. Runs on a pi3b or pi4b.
> >
> > But does it run on the new Pi4?
>
> That I don't know, if the hardware has been changed from the 2gig rpi4b I
> bought last spring. This hardware and kernel has the new video drivers,
> replacing the glacial framebuffers the rpi3 had. Raspian, if asked
> nicely, has the srcs for a preempt-rt kernel, but you are 100% on your
> own to build and install it.  That is what I started with but I've
> seriously stripped it to stop wasting time building stuff for all the
> other arm family kissing cousins.
>
> > The 4.19 kernel on the LinuxCNC server works perfectly well on _my_
> > Pi4 and on the Pi400 that I bought for testing when this issue was
> > first reported.
>
> pi400? never heard of it.
>
> > But there has been a hardware change, to at least the USB subsystem,
> > and possibly to other features too.
>
> URL to buy one, maybe more?  Found it, too much usefull i/o has
> disappeared, so I'm not that interested. I am using all 4 usb jacks +
> spi at 40 megabit write and 25 megabit reads, but I suspect that would
> crash and burn at much lower speeds with a cable to a 7i90 much longer
> than the inch I'm using. And I'm not willing to dedicate the only wired
> ethernet port to a 7c80.
>
> As for odroid-h2, I have a c2 I put over $100 worth of my SS into at the
> time, bricked, trying to install linux thru a UEFI bios that had no
> mandatory off switch. Odroid had zero sympathy.
>
> rpi's so far are not afflicted with that microsoft disease. Odroid is
> therefore not on my vendor list.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 17 January 2021 19:05:01 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 23:49, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Andy, I have a working 4.19 kernel. Runs on a pi3b or pi4b.
>
> But does it run on the new Pi4?

That I don't know, if the hardware has been changed from the 2gig rpi4b I 
bought last spring. This hardware and kernel has the new video drivers, 
replacing the glacial framebuffers the rpi3 had. Raspian, if asked 
nicely, has the srcs for a preempt-rt kernel, but you are 100% on your 
own to build and install it.  That is what I started with but I've 
seriously stripped it to stop wasting time building stuff for all the 
other arm family kissing cousins.

> The 4.19 kernel on the LinuxCNC server works perfectly well on _my_
> Pi4 and on the Pi400 that I bought for testing when this issue was
> first reported.

pi400? never heard of it.

> But there has been a hardware change, to at least the USB subsystem,
> and possibly to other features too.

URL to buy one, maybe more?  Found it, too much usefull i/o has 
disappeared, so I'm not that interested. I am using all 4 usb jacks + 
spi at 40 megabit write and 25 megabit reads, but I suspect that would 
crash and burn at much lower speeds with a cable to a 7i90 much longer 
than the inch I'm using. And I'm not willing to dedicate the only wired 
ethernet port to a 7c80.

As for odroid-h2, I have a c2 I put over $100 worth of my SS into at the 
time, bricked, trying to install linux thru a UEFI bios that had no 
mandatory off switch. Odroid had zero sympathy.

rpi's so far are not afflicted with that microsoft disease. Odroid is 
therefore not on my vendor list.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 23:49, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Andy, I have a working 4.19 kernel. Runs on a pi3b or pi4b.

But does it run on the new Pi4?

The 4.19 kernel on the LinuxCNC server works perfectly well on _my_
Pi4 and on the Pi400 that I bought for testing when this issue was
first reported.

But there has been a hardware change, to at least the USB subsystem,
and possibly to other features too.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021, Gene Heskett wrote:


Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 14:08:05 -0500
From: Gene Heskett 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

On Sunday 17 January 2021 12:06:42 Matt Shaver wrote:


On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:17:57 +

andy pugh  wrote:

The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not
work with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.


Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs
that this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience the
Pi3 works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...


I don't want to be seen as starting an argument with the legendary Matt
Shaver, but I can't let that go by. It is NOT the least bit shaky here
Matt, I have a larger 5 amp psu, which is also running 360 GB worth of
SSD's on usb3 adaptors, and a 7i90HD i/o board + 3 7i42TA's and a small
350 WA UPS on mine, and the only reason it gets rebooted is if a library
it needs gets updated.

Uptime is 2 days ATM, but was north of 2 months when I rebooted it to
replace a json library on Thursday evening. I can't recall the last time
I had an actual crash, its that rare. I don't use that ultra puny wall
wart psu supplied, its well known to not be big enough as also is the
OTG port it plugs into. I am feeding it directly on the 40 pin header. I
also have 4 teeny heat sinks stuck on it, cooled by an ex-video card
ball bearing fan. A 12 volt fan running on 5 volts.  And its building
LinuxCNC from github about 5 to 7 times a week as commits are being
made. A full build is getting close to 2 hours as docs are being added.

Here, with a decent supply and a small bit of cooling, it Just Works.


Thanks,
Matt



Thats my experience also, I have > 6 months uptime on my 4G RPI4 running 
linuxCNC+Axis over SPI on a 7C80. This is with a simple stick-on heatsink

It has never crashed or reported a latency error (1 KHz servo thread)



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(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 17 January 2021 10:17:57 andy pugh wrote:

> The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not work
> with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.
>
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/41092-last-update-of-
>linuxcnc-raspberry-pi4-usb-does-not-work?start=0#194602
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/40466-linuxcnc-2-8-0-
>pi4-img-no-usb-on-raspberry-pi-4-8gb-2gb?start=0#187558
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/41136-rt-4-19-71-rt24
>-v7l-brakes-usb-on-raspberry-pi-4-os-version-11-01-2021#195290
>
> Some patches were submitted, and applied, and seem to work for the
> submitter, but not for anyone else.
>
> I have spent over a week trying to build a working kernel package, and
> whilst some of them have worked for me, with the hardware that I own,
> there has been no reported success for anyone else.
>
> I propose that we remove the kernel and linuxcnc packages and edit the
> docs to suggest that it can be made to work, but is not supported.

Andy, I have a working 4.19 kernel. Runs on a pi3b or pi4b. But its an 
unusual install, done from a 30 meg tarball you can get from my site in 
the sig. There is a readme at the same link, that describes how to 
install it and it must be done exactly as I say in the readme. I was 
never able to figure out how to make it work as a deb, but once 
installed, it does work, with reasonable latency. Now on a pi4b with 2 
gigs of dram, I am building git as commits are made, on the rpi4, but 
I've 2 SSD's and moved swap to one of them. I've been hammering on the 
64Gig u-sd card now, doing those builds nearly every day for 2 years 
now. The SSD's are on starlink usb3 adaptors and are running at least 5x 
faster than the u-sd card. And I just found the link to that stuff was 
bad, so give me a few to fix it...

Fixed.



Get the README, the tarball of the srcs "4.19.71-rt24-v7l+.tar.bz2" which 
is 2.4G. or the actual tarball I made and did the install 
from "kernel-rt.tgz" which is only 24 megs. The README tells you how.

I also took the time to update all the stuff there to this mornings 
builds from github. Including the scripts that built it and installed 
it. Runs fine.

Be my guest. Maybe you can figure out how to make a .deb out of it. But 
it installs by overwriting stuff in the /boot and /lib trees, and takes 
a bunch of editing in a card reader to adapt it to YOUR rpi. See the 
README.

Protect it from apt updates of course. I have and that rpi4b is uptodate 
with buster a/o 3 or 4 days back.

I just did, but because the kernel is pinned, only the rpi-eeprom got 
updated. The other 6 packages it listed are kernel dependant and held. 
It is otherwise up to date as of right now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 at 17:29, Matt Shaver  wrote:

> Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs that
> this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience the Pi3
> works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...

Well, the Pi4 has the advantage of non-USB Ethernet, which makes is a
better fit for the Ethernet Mesa cards.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 17 January 2021 12:06:42 Matt Shaver wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:17:57 +
>
> andy pugh  wrote:
> > The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not
> > work with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.
>
> Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs
> that this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience the
> Pi3 works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...
>
I don't want to be seen as starting an argument with the legendary Matt 
Shaver, but I can't let that go by. It is NOT the least bit shaky here 
Matt, I have a larger 5 amp psu, which is also running 360 GB worth of 
SSD's on usb3 adaptors, and a 7i90HD i/o board + 3 7i42TA's and a small 
350 WA UPS on mine, and the only reason it gets rebooted is if a library 
it needs gets updated.

Uptime is 2 days ATM, but was north of 2 months when I rebooted it to 
replace a json library on Thursday evening. I can't recall the last time 
I had an actual crash, its that rare. I don't use that ultra puny wall 
wart psu supplied, its well known to not be big enough as also is the 
OTG port it plugs into. I am feeding it directly on the 40 pin header. I 
also have 4 teeny heat sinks stuck on it, cooled by an ex-video card 
ball bearing fan. A 12 volt fan running on 5 volts.  And its building 
LinuxCNC from github about 5 to 7 times a week as commits are being 
made. A full build is getting close to 2 hours as docs are being added.

Here, with a decent supply and a small bit of cooling, it Just Works.

> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Rod Webster]

I'm with Andy,
To my mind, we are spreading ourselves too thin on the ground to support
multiple Architectures.

In my experience, the Odroid H2+ is a much better candidate with an Intel
processor and a complete PC that fits in the palm of your hand.
Yes it costs a bit more than a PI but it does not have the latency issues I
see reported with the Pi.

The Odroid H2+ uses a Realtek 8125 Network interface to give 2 x  2.5 Gb
ethernet connections so its perfect to be used with Mesa hardware.
The 24 pin GPIO header includes 2 x serial UARTS and access to some other
cool hardware
Unfortunately, this driver is not yet in the Linux kernel but is available
from Realtek under the GPL license here
https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/network-interface-controllers-10-100-1000m-gigabit-ethernet-pci-express-software
It would be really nice if this driver could be included in our ISO.
Everything else is supported out of the box with the standard distribution
ISO's

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 03:29, Matt Shaver  wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:17:57 +
> andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not work
> > with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.
>
> Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs that
> this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience the Pi3
> works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Matt Shaver]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:17:57 +
andy pugh  wrote:

> The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not work
> with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.

Does it work for the 3B+? If so, maybe just add a note to the docs that
this is the hardware you have to use. In my own experience the Pi3
works well, the Pi4 seems kind of shaky...

Thanks,
Matt


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Re: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[Chris Morley]

As usual Andy, this sounds reasonable.
Could always be revisited in the future if thing change.

Chris

From: andy pugh 
Sent: January 17, 2021 3:17 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: [Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not work
with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/41092-last-update-of-linuxcnc-raspberry-pi4-usb-does-not-work?start=0#194602
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/40466-linuxcnc-2-8-0-pi4-img-no-usb-on-raspberry-pi-4-8gb-2gb?start=0#187558
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/41136-rt-4-19-71-rt24-v7l-brakes-usb-on-raspberry-pi-4-os-version-11-01-2021#195290

Some patches were submitted, and applied, and seem to work for the
submitter, but not for anyone else.

I have spent over a week trying to build a working kernel package, and
whilst some of them have worked for me, with the hardware that I own,
there has been no reported success for anyone else.

I propose that we remove the kernel and linuxcnc packages and edit the
docs to suggest that it can be made to work, but is not supported.


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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[Emc-developers] Withdraw Pi support?

[andy pugh]

The current linuxcnc-served Raspberry Pi realtime kernel does not work
with the latest hardware revision of the raspberry Pi.

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/41092-last-update-of-linuxcnc-raspberry-pi4-usb-does-not-work?start=0#194602
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/40466-linuxcnc-2-8-0-pi4-img-no-usb-on-raspberry-pi-4-8gb-2gb?start=0#187558
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/41136-rt-4-19-71-rt24-v7l-brakes-usb-on-raspberry-pi-4-os-version-11-01-2021#195290

Some patches were submitted, and applied, and seem to work for the
submitter, but not for anyone else.

I have spent over a week trying to build a working kernel package, and
whilst some of them have worked for me, with the hardware that I own,
there has been no reported success for anyone else.

I propose that we remove the kernel and linuxcnc packages and edit the
docs to suggest that it can be made to work, but is not supported.


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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